That was me just being brave! I am the CFI at the London Gliding Club and a Senior Instructor coach with the BGA so I have to do lots of spinning - I still don't like doing it so try to stay cool :-)
When your instructor says its time to learn spin recovery I recommend doing your seat straps up as tight as you can. It helps make the experience a lot more comfortable.
Sorry to be so off topic but does someone know of a method to get back into an instagram account..? I was dumb lost the login password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me!
@Ishaan Beckham thanks for your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm trying it out atm. I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Would you belive a 14 year old can do this? Part of the glider training sylabuls in the UK is to practice spins! actually pretty fun! This helped boost my confidence!
Nice spinning demonstration, Andrew. Thanks for posting. Although I've had over 500 launches, I've never enjoyed spinning so I'm impressed with your calm commentary. I recently posted a video of a spin in a Puchacz which scared the hell out me at the time!!
Thanks very much for this. It is very interesting how you can be uncoordinated (rudder perhaps is neutral) in a turning stall and not spin, but as soon as you add rudder to center the yaw string, you spin. I've always been taught that you should be coordinated in a stall, whether straight ahead or turning, to prevent a spin.
Excellent video and instructional patter Andy which, with your permission, I would use in my own pre-flight briefing on the issue. Nicely explained, paced and demonstrated. Well done!
As a flight instructor I've had to watch this a few times. What I think it happening is the yaw momentum on the inside wing causes it to more deeply stall starting the spin. However, in steady state you can fly around in a ACK 23 (or any aircraft) all day long in a full stall while coordinated and a century of aeronautical research assures us it will not spin. And in fact I've verified this in the ASK 23.
I watched this excellent demonstration and navigated to your channel to watch more similar videos of your making only to find... none! I encourage you to shoot some more instructional clips like that.
Hi Roy. I am still not that keen on the sensations of spinning but it does not put much load on the glider and is therefore safe, subject to doing a good look out and thus making sure that you do not get into the path of other aircraft.
Andrew Roch This is a good training consideration because if I was not prepared for such a scenario and accidentally get into such a case, I’d want to be able to keep my senses, be confident, and recover properly. Thank you.
Thanks for that, Andrew. I've just achieved my glider rating here in the USA, Boulder Colorado. The club uses a ASK21, and my instructor and I added spin weights to the tail ballast position at one point, to "force" the ASK21 to be able to spin, for proactice of recognition and recovery. Fun! Here's a short video: th-cam.com/video/F5iaLGmkuN0/w-d-xo.html
What you did was incredibly dangerous. I’m impressed that a CFI did something like that. If a glider with its W&B and its configuration cannot do the spins, then, it must do not them! Force a glider to do spins when it’s not built for it could result in an impossibility to recover it.
@@filippoporro2049 This is not dangerous; it is a Schleicher tested and certified "spin-kit". Spin recovery training is mandatory for students and a lot of clubs have the ASK-21 for training. So Schleicher did all the spin testing and certification with the additional tail ballast.
Awsome love it...but could u please tell me would speed decrease if i bring the nose a bit higher...
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Somebody actually spun an ASK-21! I thought it cannot be done 😀 (I know some of them can be weighted for this very purpose, I just never heard of anyone actually doing it)
Hi Andrew, very interesting video, thx for posting. I'm curious as to apart from a slower turn rate, would it be safer to stay with uncoordinated turns when low down to avoid this potential hazard? It's been 20 years since I flew a glider and only had a week instruction so have probably forgotten a LOT but I managed 2 solos. Seeing this brings back memories....😁
Hi Scott. Sorry that I have been so slow to reply. A slipping turn would be safer than a skidding turn but in reality we want to climb in lift so a "balanced" turn is more efficient. We really want to fly the smallest circle possible in the centre of a thermal to optimise climb rate. The safe answer is to monitor speed carefully and regularly
Very nicely done. Done spin check tests. But this video shows how easily your judgement of flying looks "OK" but it is not. The wrong rudder input and whoosh! Spin!
Great video! I'm training to become an ass-cat now, bit didn't do my initial training to Bronze in the UK so wasn't familiar with all the stalling/spinning exercises. This is a perfect demonstration of spinning of a thermal turn. I would love to see you do the: 'elevator not effective when stalled'/'reduced G is not a reliable signal if the stall', as well as the 'spinning of a winch launch failure' You have a very early voice, good technique and great timing of words and action. Makes it look so easy!
Thanks for your feedback. Good luck with the ass-cat training. If you need any help just shout. I will try to get round to doing some more videos this year.
THank you for this video, inspiring stuff... I'm really wanting to learn to fly and looking to join my local gliding club. A couple of questions... at the end you say "ease off the back pressure" and glider comes out of the stall. Can you explain what is "back pressure"? Also i believe i understand what the yaw string indicates (wind direction), but can you explain why centralising the yaw string initiates a spin? Thanks
If you want to learn to fly gliding is defiantly the way to go, it is affordable and has a great community of people surrounding it. 1. Back pressure is him pulling backwards on the stick, releasing the back pressure is done to allow the glider to unstall. 2. To centralise the yaw string you put in a rudder input. When you are near the stall this causes one wing to fly slower than the other causing one wing to stall and the other to continue flying. This is what causes a spin. In normal flight at normal gliding attitude the yaw sting should be kept central.
Thank you for your kind comment. I could not tell you but well forward I would suggest. I am not fortunate enough (or disciplined enough) to be anywhere near the minimum placard weight. Coming in at around 95 kg with 'chute I was much closer to max weight. I think the method of spin entry has quite a lot to do with it.
That's really interesting. Funny enough, I'm 95kg as well, which has me to believe I have the CG pretty far forward. I believe the max cockpit weight is 242lbs (109kg). The part that fascinates me is that the 32's flight manual says it will only spin with a CG in the most aft position, and spril otherwise like a 21. But clearly this is not the case. I showed this video to my instructor who is also an aerobatic pilot, and he had tried all sorts of stuff to try and get the school's 23 to spin. But your video shows that the glider will spin if stalled in very uncordinated flight.
An interesting question with slightly the wrong slant! Nearby luton airport was developed after the London Gliding Club was established in the 1930's. So yes Luton Airport is problematic to our operation. In the realisation that both are important to aviation we have a letter of agreement with NATS who are presently responsible for the safe arrival and departure of Luton Aircraft. Through working closely together we are able to co-exist with only a minor inconvenience to both parties. Luton aircraft have no need to be over Dunstable lower than 4,000ft AMSL so the area dirctly ove the gliding club is not in any way contentious. I hope that answers your very valid question as fully as you would like. Andrew
Hi, I've just found this video and found it very informative. I'm always interested in spin cause and recovery as I hate spinning :) There's something I don't understand though so hope you can help and see if my thoughts are right. I understood that spinning is caused when lift on one wing (the inside wing) is reduced to a point where it stalls, and the opposite wing still produces lift which causes the glider to spin. I'm trying to understand why centering the string while turning would cause the spin. I think this is because the with the unbalanced turn (eg at 5:10 in the video), the inside wing is actually hitting the air faster than would be the case in a normal turn (since the glider is slipping), and therefore the wing is not stalled. When you centre the string, you are slowing the inside wing to the point when it stalls and the spin starts. Is this right? I'm interested in the physics behind why this happens to aid my understanding of how to avoid it. Cheers and safe flying !
Hi Cirrus4000. Spinning is in my opinion a horrible passtime but learning to understand how it feels, how to get out of it effectively and more importantly knowing when it is about to happen is all good for self presevation! Please be aware that my reply to you is based on mostly experience and relatively little science so if you see an answer to your question from a more informed source then go with that. This is my best shot at a partial answer. When a glider is banked and turning the outer wing travels faster, the inner wing relatively slower. The outer wing travelling further in the same period of time and losing the same amount of height must have had a slightly lower angle of attack compared to the inner wing. It is a high angle of attack that makes a wing stall therefore the inner wing will stall more than the outer wing.(Lift effectively increases with angle of attack untill just before the stall when it rapidly loses lift, so the outer wing is likely to be producing maximum lift at the point the inner wing stops doing so). In my example in the video it important to realise that the glider is well below the stalling speed (for the angle of bank) and therefore slipping significantly into the turn. This slipping pushes the yaw string to the outside of the turn and even full application of in turn rudder struggles to centralise the string but readily causes the glider to spin. (as it increases the speed and reduces the angle of attack on the outer wing and the reverse on the inner wing). So the semi stalled condition in the first place is the root of the evil and misleading information from the yaw string. There really is only one reliable answer to not stalling and spinning and that is to realise that the stalling speed increases with the angle of bank and to fly the glider above the stall speed for the angle of bank that you have. If you ever find yourself with the stick well back consider allowing it to move forward a little.
@@andrewroch2159 Hello Andrew, thanks for the detailed reply, especially after all these years after the original video was uploaded. :) Your explanation makes sense, and actually I can see that it's not necessarily the fact that the string is level (and the turn balanced) that's the cause as such, but the *act* of ruddering (ie yaw motion) to bring it level that slows the inner wing enough to tip it over the edge. I had forgotten that the stall speed increase in a turn which is definitely something to remember. I need to start reading up on all this again and dig out my Glider Pilot's Manual. I've not flown for a good few years after going solo some time ago, but looking to fly again when restrictions allow. So I've been busy watching as many informative videos as I can in the mean time, and commenting where appropriate (I've watched and commented on a few of Gerry Fletcher's videos who I see also commented here). Thanks again for your comments. It's a pity you have not been able to upload more instructional videos on this topic, but understand that it's not always easy to do. I think, like you say, spinning is one of the aspects of flying that is least liked but has to be most understood to fly safe. Cheers!
Great video, extremely helpful. I'm just in process of learning about Gliders. I know more about GA Powered planes & the biggest gotcha is the infamous "Base to Final Turn". With gear down, 2nd flaps in & throttle lowered many times your hovering around stall speed & over shoot runway you increase bank angle, then also use more rudder to bring nose around, noticing ground is approaching faster with increased bank pilot mistakey push up & stall spin deepest at low altitude to perform proper recovery. Would this example be similar to a typical base to final stall?
In this video you state that this wouldn't happen in other model But you never explained why it wouldn't. Does that plane have a lower stall speed or another reason
I think this is covered in a lot of basic spin training : by centering the "uncoordinated" turn (out slipping, not enough in turn rudder), you apply in-turn rudder, and this has the effect of raising the relative airflow speed on your hight wing (which is good) but it also decrease the airflow over your low wing, which is already near stall speed. So because of this rudder input into the turn near stall speed you will make your low wing stall and you will spin thereafter. The critical thing here is not having a coordinated turn at all cost it is the reduce your angle of attack.
Interesting video. Not a glider pilot but powered and have done some spin training. Curious that the glider can maintain "control" with it in a slip and stalled. I didn't get what signs there were that the glider was stalled and you mentioned no buffet either. What am I missing?
Ah yes!! Sorry about that. The give away that it is stalled is that the variometer (sensitive VSI and total energy compensated) shows a high rate of descent. and particularly that it flickers. So if you watch the instrument on the top right you will see that it is normally at about -2 (2 knots down which roughly equates to 200ft/min). When stalled this will increase significantly and the instrument tends to flicker due to the turbulent airflow over the port which is used for total energy compensation. Neither the K21 nor the K23 show much buffet at the stall. I hope this helps answer your questions but if not please come back to me. Andrew
@@andrewroch2159 not at all! Thank you for responding to my question. It makes sense now when I watch the video again but I am surprised there is no audible stall warning given that a dramatic spin entry is only one dumb decision away.
Thank you for your positive feedback. I hope eventually to cover most glider pilot training matters but it is a VERY long project and as you see I have not got very far yet!
I would call this dropping the inside wing. No spin here. The ASK23 is near impossible to spin without tail weights or a pilot well below weight limit.
I can assure you that it does and was spinning. This is an exercise with which I am very familiar. There was full auto rotation and all the symptoms of a spin. What is the reason for your analysis please?
@@JohnLivings Hello John and M R. Sadly I think that you may have missed the point of the video. It was intended to demonstrate that a K23 does not handle in the same way as a K21 and I just filmed this example to make the point. There was nothing special about the configuration of the glider and no "Test Pilot" elements involved. It is a great shame that we lose too many glider pilots in unintentional spinning accidents and we should assume (regardless of what it says in the manual) that gliders flown without due regard to airspeed might very well spin. How "fully developed" the spin might be (or for that matter any other departure from controlled flight) has no bearing on life expectancy if the ground gets in the way. My endeavour in publishing this video was to inform and educate with the hope that it will prevent a pilot from leaping out of a K21 into a K23 and assume that you can treat them as being the same - they are not! I would really not want to get into pilot qualification levels and the like in this open forum to justify my comments but if you would like to know more please just email me at the London Gliding Club. With regard to the helicopter comment......... Auto rotation is an expression used for both fixed wing and rotary aircraft. Confusingly it has a different meaning in each. Please have a look in Wikipedia for autorotation (fixed-wing aircraft) which gives an excellent explanation of the term.
@@MrBirgerB Hello MR. I am still grappling with how to do replies on TH-cam but please have a read of the reply to John (and intentionally you) as I hope it covers the points that you raise. I am glad to hear that you have had the opportunity to complete a number of hours flying the lovely K23. I hope that my little demo has shown you a side to the glider that will keep you cautious. Sadly most spinning accidents occur during a period of high workload and that is not managed correctly. Rarely is it due to the pilot being unaware of how to get the glider out of a spin. Stay safe and have fun - please do not get distracted from the point by focusing on an issue that I do not know enough about. I have no idea what in your mind constitutes a "fully developed" spin but whatever it is from 3,000 ft holding the glider in more turns of the spin would have caused me to run out of height before completing the task that I set out to complete. For what it is worth I do feel reasonably content that I am suitably qualified to justify the video and my comments but if you want to know more please just email me at the London Gliding Club and I will happily elaborate.
Andrew Roch, No need to get deffensive about a technical discussion. I appreciate your video and the message you are trying to get through. I just find flying interesting and I like to discuss technical aspects of it.
It is a good idea for the glider and tug to gain separation as soon as possible so that there is no conflict between the tow rope and the glider. This can be achieved in a number of different ways but in this particular location it is not possible for the tug to continue its climb due to the base of controlled airspace. If the tug suddenly descends then it will shock cool the engine and/or over speed it. So the best option for the tug is to turn and gently reduce power. The convention at most clubs in the UK is for the tug to turn right and therefore for the glider to turn left. If this reply raises further questions please just go ahead and ask. As I have no idea of your background or level of knowledge on the subject I have tried to cover the topic in the best way that I can, but more detail can be given if you wish. Thanks for your interest in my video.
Interesting. We are opposite with cars, and with gliders. Something that I need to know should I ever be fortunate enough to fly in the UK! Thank you for an excellent video.
DIsmayedConfuse I so wish we were consistent in the UK but we are not! I know that the club at Cambridge uses " glider turns right" so if we are lucky enough to have you visit the UK my advice would be to get a suitable briefing on the topic from the club's at which you fly.
An interesting demonstration of spinning an ASK23 in a thermal turn but no explanation of why it happens.I assume it is because an application of into turn rudder yaws the glider & pulls the inside wing back below the stall speed.I have done some glider courses but not gone solo so I found the video disconcerting to find how quickly things can go wrong without any warning.Good practice is to keep the yaw string centred, so is this a peculiarity of the ASK 23 or should the string also be deflected out of turn in a K21 in a slow thermal turn please ?
Hi Paul, I think I'm about the same stage as you in my training, so anyone with more knowledge or experience, please feel free to correct me if the below is not accurate. Sorry, I can't add much regarding spin causation - the explanation I was given is the same as you have put, inside wing stalls first/more than outside. However, regarding the yaw string, I believe it is only off to the outside once the glider has stalled - the cause of which is increased angle of bank (the vario jumps down to 6 o'clock at the moment of increased bank). Correcting the string and not the stall, with inside rudder, causes the spin. Correcting the stall before adding rudder, by the easing of back pressure on the stick, would then bring the string central again. Andy - may you please correct this or elaborate?
That is the exact thing being shown here. The glider stalls when the angle of bank increases (stall speed is higher with more bank) , then te pilot is not aware of this situation and corrects the slip, wich basically is the glider falling sideways causing the yaw string to bend upwards, with internal rudder, and thus making the glider depart from the gentle stall to a full spin. As a side note In some gliders applying full opposite aileron can also make the slip turn into a spin.
So sorry for the delay in reply. In this case the glider in a moderate turn starts to slip INTO the turn and without in-turn yaw will not spin. It causes the yaw string to sit out to the side. We are often told that we should have the yaw string in the middle but if you apply sufficient in-turn rudder to bring the yaw string back to the centre without first increasing speed then the glider will spin. This used as a spin entry technique works on most aircraft for all the reasons that you give above. It is quite difficult to get a K21 to do this and original purpose of the video was to counteract a comment that I heard - "a K23 is just a single seat K21!" I set out to show that this was not the case by using this simple spin scenario to express one of the many differences. It is probably worth mentioning that the glider is already stalled before the application of rudder and therefore the effect of slowing the innner wing further stalls it and accelerating the outer wing reduces the area of the wing that is stalled and thus the autorotation.
+Andrew Roch Thanks for the feedback , pleased my armchair theory was correct.I was also puzzled why the yaw string was not centred in the turn but it makes sense if the glider is slipping into the turn opposed to yawing out of the turn as I first thought
Andrew Roch thanks for sharing this video. I have flown K21/K23 for 20+ years as an instructor and was not aware of these spin characteristics of the K23. Do you know if this can be reproduced for both heavy and light pilots? And are there any differences between the A and the B model of the K23 in this regard? Thanks.
@@andrewroch2159 Because I own an LS3 A since 1990 and I have 1,100 hours on the machine and it doesn't engage in spin even if stalled in a turn . It stalls in a turn when spiralling at less than 80km/h but you don't even have to push the stick, it recovers by itself . Maybe you should try an LS3 and see for yourself . I would like to know .
Very good demonstration, I love how you keep as calm as if nothing ever happened.
That was me just being brave! I am the CFI at the London Gliding Club and a Senior Instructor coach with the BGA so I have to do lots of spinning - I still don't like doing it so try to stay cool :-)
When your instructor says its time to learn spin recovery I recommend doing your seat straps up as tight as you can. It helps make the experience a lot more comfortable.
A voice and an instructor and a friend I miss and remember with a smile! The reassuring competence and caring nudging into new learning experiences. ❤
Sorry to be so off topic but does someone know of a method to get back into an instagram account..?
I was dumb lost the login password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me!
@Malik Brett instablaster =)
@Ishaan Beckham thanks for your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm trying it out atm.
I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Ishaan Beckham it did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thanks so much, you saved my account :D
@Malik Brett you are welcome :D
Highly informative video, even for instructors. I hope you will find the opportunity to upload more.
I am glad that you found it informative. Thank you for your comment. I will try to find the time to do some more videos next season
Would you belive a 14 year old can do this? Part of the glider training sylabuls in the UK is to practice spins! actually pretty fun! This helped boost my confidence!
Hey, not all of us teenagers are idiots :D
Nice spinning demonstration, Andrew. Thanks for posting. Although I've had over 500 launches, I've never enjoyed spinning so I'm impressed with your calm commentary. I recently posted a video of a spin in a Puchacz which scared the hell out me at the time!!
Thanks very much for this. It is very interesting how you can be uncoordinated (rudder perhaps is neutral) in a turning stall and not spin, but as soon as you add rudder to center the yaw string, you spin. I've always been taught that you should be coordinated in a stall, whether straight ahead or turning, to prevent a spin.
Excellent video and instructional patter Andy which, with your permission, I would use in my own pre-flight briefing on the issue. Nicely explained, paced and demonstrated. Well done!
Hi John I am glad that you enjoyed it. You are most welcome to use anything from it after all it is intended to help prevent spinning accidents.
As a flight instructor I've had to watch this a few times. What I think it happening is the yaw momentum on the inside wing causes it to more deeply stall starting the spin. However, in steady state you can fly around in a ACK 23 (or any aircraft) all day long in a full stall while coordinated and a century of aeronautical research assures us it will not spin. And in fact I've verified this in the ASK 23.
I watched this excellent demonstration and navigated to your channel to watch more similar videos of your making only to find... none! I encourage you to shoot some more instructional clips like that.
Good job & God bless you.
Greetings from Kefamenanu, Timor Island, Indonesia 🙏
I always taught how to recognise adverse yaw at 300' .
At 5,000 ft you can do what you like.
I had some time on a K21 at Aston Down. Good times!
Whoa. That would get me nervous. Will have to study and practice this eventually. Amazing.
Hi Roy. I am still not that keen on the sensations of spinning but it does not put much load on the glider and is therefore safe, subject to doing a good look out and thus making sure that you do not get into the path of other aircraft.
Andrew Roch This is a good training consideration because if I was not prepared for such a scenario and accidentally get into such a case, I’d want to be able to keep my senses, be confident, and recover properly. Thank you.
Never tap the actual instrument but tap the surround - they are delicate instruments . . . . 😎👍😎
How did you recover? Opposite rudder and pull up or also using stick to steer in the opposite direction?
Thanks for that, Andrew. I've just achieved my glider rating here in the USA, Boulder Colorado. The club uses a ASK21, and my instructor and I added spin weights to the tail ballast position at one point, to "force" the ASK21 to be able to spin, for proactice of recognition and recovery. Fun! Here's a short video: th-cam.com/video/F5iaLGmkuN0/w-d-xo.html
What you did was incredibly dangerous. I’m impressed that a CFI did something like that.
If a glider with its W&B and its configuration cannot do the spins, then, it must do not them!
Force a glider to do spins when it’s not built for it could result in an impossibility to recover it.
@@filippoporro2049 This is not dangerous; it is a Schleicher tested and certified "spin-kit". Spin recovery training is mandatory for students and a lot of clubs have the ASK-21 for training. So Schleicher did all the spin testing and certification with the additional tail ballast.
Awsome love it...but could u please tell me would speed decrease if i bring the nose a bit higher...
Somebody actually spun an ASK-21! I thought it cannot be done 😀 (I know some of them can be weighted for this very purpose, I just never heard of anyone actually doing it)
Hi Andrew, very interesting video, thx for posting. I'm curious as to apart from a slower turn rate, would it be safer to stay with uncoordinated turns when low down to avoid this potential hazard? It's been 20 years since I flew a glider and only had a week instruction so have probably forgotten a LOT but I managed 2 solos. Seeing this brings back memories....😁
Hi Scott. Sorry that I have been so slow to reply. A slipping turn would be safer than a skidding turn but in reality we want to climb in lift so a "balanced" turn is more efficient. We really want to fly the smallest circle possible in the centre of a thermal to optimise climb rate. The safe answer is to monitor speed carefully and regularly
Why isn't the turn needle moving ?
Im not a glider pilot
Very nicely done. Done spin check tests. But this video shows how easily your judgement of flying looks "OK" but it is not. The wrong rudder input and whoosh! Spin!
Hi John, Glad you enjoyed it. You pick up on the most valuable point!! It can all look OK and then very suddenly it is not!. Fly safely, Andrew
Great video! I'm training to become an ass-cat now, bit didn't do my initial training to Bronze in the UK so wasn't familiar with all the stalling/spinning exercises. This is a perfect demonstration of spinning of a thermal turn.
I would love to see you do the: 'elevator not effective when stalled'/'reduced G is not a reliable signal if the stall', as well as the 'spinning of a winch launch failure'
You have a very early voice, good technique and great timing of words and action. Makes it look so easy!
Thanks for your feedback. Good luck with the ass-cat training. If you need any help just shout. I will try to get round to doing some more videos this year.
Andrew Roch Thanks! I'll subscribe to your channel, look forward to seeing more videos in the future :)
very interesting
Great instructional video, thank you
You are most welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting.
THank you for this video, inspiring stuff... I'm really wanting to learn to fly and looking to join my local gliding club.
A couple of questions... at the end you say "ease off the back pressure" and glider comes out of the stall. Can you explain what is "back pressure"?
Also i believe i understand what the yaw string indicates (wind direction), but can you explain why centralising the yaw string initiates a spin?
Thanks
If you want to learn to fly gliding is defiantly the way to go, it is affordable and has a great community of people surrounding it.
1. Back pressure is him pulling backwards on the stick, releasing the back pressure is done to allow the glider to unstall.
2. To centralise the yaw string you put in a rudder input. When you are near the stall this causes one wing to fly slower than the other causing one wing to stall and the other to continue flying. This is what causes a spin. In normal flight at normal gliding attitude the yaw sting should be kept central.
Great video Andrew. Where did you have the CG? According to the ASK-23 flight manual, the glider will only spin in the rearmost CG position.
Thank you for your kind comment. I could not tell you but well forward I would suggest. I am not fortunate enough (or disciplined enough) to be anywhere near the minimum placard weight. Coming in at around 95 kg with 'chute I was much closer to max weight. I think the method of spin entry has quite a lot to do with it.
That's really interesting. Funny enough, I'm 95kg as well, which has me to believe I have the CG pretty far forward. I believe the max cockpit weight is 242lbs (109kg). The part that fascinates me is that the 32's flight manual says it will only spin with a CG in the most aft position, and spril otherwise like a 21. But clearly this is not the case. I showed this video to my instructor who is also an aerobatic pilot, and he had tried all sorts of stuff to try and get the school's 23 to spin. But your video shows that the glider will spin if stalled in very uncordinated flight.
I see you are 3000ft above dustable. Is that not problematic for nearby luton air port
An interesting question with slightly the wrong slant! Nearby luton airport was developed after the London Gliding Club was established in the 1930's. So yes Luton Airport is problematic to our operation. In the realisation that both are important to aviation we have a letter of agreement with NATS who are presently responsible for the safe arrival and departure of Luton Aircraft. Through working closely together we are able to co-exist with only a minor inconvenience to both parties. Luton aircraft have no need to be over Dunstable lower than 4,000ft AMSL so the area dirctly ove the gliding club is not in any way contentious. I hope that answers your very valid question as fully as you would like.
Andrew
Hi, I've just found this video and found it very informative. I'm always interested in spin cause and recovery as I hate spinning :) There's something I don't understand though so hope you can help and see if my thoughts are right. I understood that spinning is caused when lift on one wing (the inside wing) is reduced to a point where it stalls, and the opposite wing still produces lift which causes the glider to spin. I'm trying to understand why centering the string while turning would cause the spin. I think this is because the with the unbalanced turn (eg at 5:10 in the video), the inside wing is actually hitting the air faster than would be the case in a normal turn (since the glider is slipping), and therefore the wing is not stalled. When you centre the string, you are slowing the inside wing to the point when it stalls and the spin starts. Is this right? I'm interested in the physics behind why this happens to aid my understanding of how to avoid it. Cheers and safe flying !
Hi Cirrus4000. Spinning is in my opinion a horrible passtime but learning to understand how it feels, how to get out of it effectively and more importantly knowing when it is about to happen is all good for self presevation!
Please be aware that my reply to you is based on mostly experience and relatively little science so if you see an answer to your question from a more informed source then go with that. This is my best shot at a partial answer. When a glider is banked and turning the outer wing travels faster, the inner wing relatively slower. The outer wing travelling further in the same period of time and losing the same amount of height must have had a slightly lower angle of attack compared to the inner wing. It is a high angle of attack that makes a wing stall therefore the inner wing will stall more than the outer wing.(Lift effectively increases with angle of attack untill just before the stall when it rapidly loses lift, so the outer wing is likely to be producing maximum lift at the point the inner wing stops doing so). In my example in the video it important to realise that the glider is well below the stalling speed (for the angle of bank) and therefore slipping significantly into the turn. This slipping pushes the yaw string to the outside of the turn and even full application of in turn rudder struggles to centralise the string but readily causes the glider to spin. (as it increases the speed and reduces the angle of attack on the outer wing and the reverse on the inner wing). So the semi stalled condition in the first place is the root of the evil and misleading information from the yaw string. There really is only one reliable answer to not stalling and spinning and that is to realise that the stalling speed increases with the angle of bank and to fly the glider above the stall speed for the angle of bank that you have. If you ever find yourself with the stick well back consider allowing it to move forward a little.
@@andrewroch2159 Hello Andrew, thanks for the detailed reply, especially after all these years after the original video was uploaded. :) Your explanation makes sense, and actually I can see that it's not necessarily the fact that the string is level (and the turn balanced) that's the cause as such, but the *act* of ruddering (ie yaw motion) to bring it level that slows the inner wing enough to tip it over the edge. I had forgotten that the stall speed increase in a turn which is definitely something to remember. I need to start reading up on all this again and dig out my Glider Pilot's Manual. I've not flown for a good few years after going solo some time ago, but looking to fly again when restrictions allow. So I've been busy watching as many informative videos as I can in the mean time, and commenting where appropriate (I've watched and commented on a few of Gerry Fletcher's videos who I see also commented here). Thanks again for your comments. It's a pity you have not been able to upload more instructional videos on this topic, but understand that it's not always easy to do. I think, like you say, spinning is one of the aspects of flying that is least liked but has to be most understood to fly safe. Cheers!
Great video, extremely helpful. I'm just in process of learning about Gliders.
I know more about GA Powered planes & the biggest gotcha is the infamous "Base to Final Turn".
With gear down, 2nd flaps in & throttle lowered many times your hovering around stall speed & over shoot runway you increase bank angle, then also use more rudder to bring nose around, noticing ground is approaching faster with increased bank pilot mistakey push up & stall spin deepest at low altitude to perform proper recovery.
Would this example be similar to a
typical base to final stall?
In this video you state that this wouldn't happen in other model
But you never explained why it wouldn't.
Does that plane have a lower stall speed or another reason
I think this is covered in a lot of basic spin training : by centering the "uncoordinated" turn (out slipping, not enough in turn rudder), you apply in-turn rudder, and this has the effect of raising the relative airflow speed on your hight wing (which is good) but it also decrease the airflow over your low wing, which is already near stall speed. So because of this rudder input into the turn near stall speed you will make your low wing stall and you will spin thereafter. The critical thing here is not having a coordinated turn at all cost it is the reduce your angle of attack.
Interesting video. Not a glider pilot but powered and have done some spin training. Curious that the glider can maintain "control" with it in a slip and stalled. I didn't get what signs there were that the glider was stalled and you mentioned no buffet either. What am I missing?
Ah yes!! Sorry about that. The give away that it is stalled is that the variometer (sensitive VSI and total energy compensated) shows a high rate of descent. and particularly that it flickers. So if you watch the instrument on the top right you will see that it is normally at about -2 (2 knots down which roughly equates to 200ft/min). When stalled this will increase significantly and the instrument tends to flicker due to the turbulent airflow over the port which is used for total energy compensation. Neither the K21 nor the K23 show much buffet at the stall. I hope this helps answer your questions but if not please come back to me. Andrew
@@andrewroch2159 not at all! Thank you for responding to my question. It makes sense now when I watch the video again but I am surprised there is no audible stall warning given that a dramatic spin entry is only one dumb decision away.
This is great!
Great video, can you make more like this one?
Thank you for your positive feedback. I hope eventually to cover most glider pilot training matters but it is a VERY long project and as you see I have not got very far yet!
I would call this dropping the inside wing. No spin here. The ASK23 is near impossible to spin without tail weights or a pilot well below weight limit.
I can assure you that it does and was spinning. This is an exercise with which I am very familiar. There was full auto rotation and all the symptoms of a spin. What is the reason for your analysis please?
@@andrewroch2159 I just don't see a fully developed spin. I have logged countless hours on this model. BTW isn't autorotation a helicopter term?
@@JohnLivings Hello John and M R. Sadly I think that you may have missed the point of the video. It was intended to demonstrate that a K23 does not handle in the same way as a K21 and I just filmed this example to make the point. There was nothing special about the configuration of the glider and no "Test Pilot" elements involved. It is a great shame that we lose too many glider pilots in unintentional spinning accidents and we should assume (regardless of what it says in the manual) that gliders flown without due regard to airspeed might very well spin. How "fully developed" the spin might be (or for that matter any other departure from controlled flight) has no bearing on life expectancy if the ground gets in the way. My endeavour in publishing this video was to inform and educate with the hope that it will prevent a pilot from leaping out of a K21 into a K23 and assume that you can treat them as being the same - they are not! I would really not want to get into pilot qualification levels and the like in this open forum to justify my comments but if you would like to know more please just email me at the London Gliding Club. With regard to the helicopter comment......... Auto rotation is an expression used for both fixed wing and rotary aircraft. Confusingly it has a different meaning in each. Please have a look in Wikipedia for autorotation (fixed-wing aircraft) which gives an excellent explanation of the term.
@@MrBirgerB Hello MR. I am still grappling with how to do replies on TH-cam but please have a read of the reply to John (and intentionally you) as I hope it covers the points that you raise. I am glad to hear that you have had the opportunity to complete a number of hours flying the lovely K23. I hope that my little demo has shown you a side to the glider that will keep you cautious. Sadly most spinning accidents occur during a period of high workload and that is not managed correctly. Rarely is it due to the pilot being unaware of how to get the glider out of a spin. Stay safe and have fun - please do not get distracted from the point by focusing on an issue that I do not know enough about. I have no idea what in your mind constitutes a "fully developed" spin but whatever it is from 3,000 ft holding the glider in more turns of the spin would have caused me to run out of height before completing the task that I set out to complete. For what it is worth I do feel reasonably content that I am suitably qualified to justify the video and my comments but if you want to know more please just email me at the London Gliding Club and I will happily elaborate.
Andrew Roch, No need to get deffensive about a technical discussion. I appreciate your video and the message you are trying to get through. I just find flying interesting and I like to discuss technical aspects of it.
No loose "obstacles" !!
Ah yes!! How else can you get objects and articles into a simgle word? :-)
Andrew - well done video. I'm teaching spins tomorrow. Technical question about the video itself - how did you record the audio?
ltcterry2006 Badly! It was all done with a go pro so the audio was just based on the built in microphone.
Nice. Where was that?
Released over Dunstable and headed over the airfield to do the spinning.
Huh? Why did the glider turn left after release?
It is a good idea for the glider and tug to gain separation as soon as possible so that there is no conflict between the tow rope and the glider. This can be achieved in a number of different ways but in this particular location it is not possible for the tug to continue its climb due to the base of controlled airspace. If the tug suddenly descends then it will shock cool the engine and/or over speed it. So the best option for the tug is to turn and gently reduce power. The convention at most clubs in the UK is for the tug to turn right and therefore for the glider to turn left. If this reply raises further questions please just go ahead and ask. As I have no idea of your background or level of knowledge on the subject I have tried to cover the topic in the best way that I can, but more detail can be given if you wish.
Thanks for your interest in my video.
Interesting. We are opposite with cars, and with gliders. Something that I need to know should I ever be fortunate enough to fly in the UK! Thank you for an excellent video.
DIsmayedConfuse I so wish we were consistent in the UK but we are not! I know that the club at Cambridge uses " glider turns right" so if we are lucky enough to have you visit the UK my advice would be to get a suitable briefing on the topic from the club's at which you fly.
@@andrewroch2159 Why could descending shock cool the engine?
An interesting demonstration of spinning an ASK23 in a thermal turn but no explanation of why it happens.I assume it is because an application of into turn rudder yaws the glider & pulls the inside wing back below the stall speed.I have done some glider courses but not gone solo so I found the video disconcerting to find how quickly things can go wrong without any warning.Good practice is to keep the yaw string centred, so is this a peculiarity of the ASK 23 or should the string also be deflected out of turn in a K21 in a slow thermal turn please ?
Hi Paul, I think I'm about the same stage as you in my training, so anyone with more knowledge or experience, please feel free to correct me if the below is not accurate.
Sorry, I can't add much regarding spin causation - the explanation I was given is the same as you have put, inside wing stalls first/more than outside.
However, regarding the yaw string, I believe it is only off to the outside once the glider has stalled - the cause of which is increased angle of bank (the vario jumps down to 6 o'clock at the moment of increased bank). Correcting the string and not the stall, with inside rudder, causes the spin. Correcting the stall before adding rudder, by the easing of back pressure on the stick, would then bring the string central again.
Andy - may you please correct this or elaborate?
That is the exact thing being shown here. The glider stalls when the angle of bank increases (stall speed is higher with more bank) , then te pilot is not aware of this situation and corrects the slip, wich basically is the glider falling sideways causing the yaw string to bend upwards, with internal rudder, and thus making the glider depart from the gentle stall to a full spin. As a side note In some gliders applying full opposite aileron can also make the slip turn into a spin.
So sorry for the delay in reply. In this case the glider in a moderate turn starts to slip INTO the turn and without in-turn yaw will not spin. It causes the yaw string to sit out to the side. We are often told that we should have the yaw string in the middle but if you apply sufficient in-turn rudder to bring the yaw string back to the centre without first increasing speed then the glider will spin. This used as a spin entry technique works on most aircraft for all the reasons that you give above. It is quite difficult to get a K21 to do this and original purpose of the video was to counteract a comment that I heard - "a K23 is just a single seat K21!" I set out to show that this was not the case by using this simple spin scenario to express one of the many differences. It is probably worth mentioning that the glider is already stalled before the application of rudder and therefore the effect of slowing the innner wing further stalls it and accelerating the outer wing reduces the area of the wing that is stalled and thus the autorotation.
+Andrew Roch
Thanks for the feedback , pleased my armchair theory was correct.I was also puzzled why the yaw string was not centred in the turn but it makes sense if the glider is slipping into the turn opposed to yawing out of the turn as I first thought
Andrew Roch thanks for sharing this video. I have flown K21/K23 for 20+ years as an instructor and was not aware of these spin characteristics of the K23. Do you know if this can be reproduced for both heavy and light pilots? And are there any differences between the A and the B model of the K23 in this regard? Thanks.
Is that dumpstable?
Dunstable/London Gliding Club have been lovely hosts every time I've visited. Wonderful experience.
That won't happen to a LS3a.
An interesting comment. What makes you believe that it will not happen to and LS3a?
@@andrewroch2159 Because I own an LS3 A since 1990 and I have 1,100 hours on the machine and it doesn't engage in spin even if stalled in a turn . It stalls in a turn when spiralling at less than 80km/h but you don't even have to push the stick, it recovers by itself . Maybe you should try an LS3 and see for yourself . I would like to know .