It really is quite impressive that the Mark Coach series has been going on for over 100 years 110 years to be exact. Ever since the Great Central Railway designed their Mark 0 Coach in 1910.
Very informative, has certainly got me off the ground on this subject. Also really nice to see all the constructive comments and discussion below as other enthusiasts add their expertise. Thanks to you all, an excellent reference. Stephen
I agree Stephen - the videos are only the start of the great advice available on this channel, and thanks to everyone who gets involved to add more and more info.
The Stove R was not a train heating vehicle it was a 6-wheel full brake usec to carry parcels etc (Type Code BGZ if fitted with a gangways or BZ if it had been removed) that was fitted with a stove to keep the guard warm and very few full brakes were fitted with steam heating equipment.
@@HattonsModelRailwaysit is a truism that you never spot your own errors until you publish and then everybody else points them out. Been there, done that.
In the 1950s BR had 3 classes of seating, but most trains only had 2 classes (First and Third). Second class was only used on boat trains as some of the European railways had 3 classes of seating. BR built 15 Open Seconds for this traffic with 48 seats (a Tourist Third Open had 64 seats). These coaches only lasted until 3rd June 1956 as the European railway got rid of Second class. The 15 Open Seconds built for the Southern Region remained in operation as Second class coaches as all the Third class coaches were redesignated to Second class. After 4 years of rostering difficulties due to only having 48 seats instead of 64 seats, they reclassified to First class. The letter P wasn't used for postal/parcels vehicles by BR. T = Tourist is an LNER term for some of their coaches. Then there is the coaching and non-passenger carrying coaching stock TOPS codes. There were corridor coaches in DMUs and sem-open coaches in EMUs.
Although it's a case of mix and match on preserved railways, with Mk. 1 carriages (my favourite kind), Main Line Operators usually stick to one livery of coaching stock. The Shakespeare Express, hauled by Rood Ashton Hall, is a classic example of this. The Shakespeare Express is made up of Mk. 1 carriages in the classic Chocolate & Cream livery. So it's the Glory of God's Wonderful Railway, from Rood Ashton Hall in Great Western Green to the coaches in Chocolate & Cream. Usually makes me think of one of my favourite types of dessert food, Chocolate Fudge Cake and chocolate ice cream. I don't intend to make your mouth water for it, so if I have made it happen, I apologise.
One mistake a lot of modellers and the preservations make is having all of their post-1956 Mark 1s in Chocolate and Cream as the WR only used these on the prestige services.
Thanks Dave, when you look at other classifications maybe a look at the various EMU/DMU models available, for example, the Southern's 4CEP, 4HAL, 5BEL , 4BIL, etc. Cheers Drew
That's a great suggestion Drew - a similar topic with a lot of unusual options. I'll add it to our ideas list and it may be a video that features on our channel in the future - Dave
Hi Paul, it can really depend on where and when the train was operated, although there's some hints and tips we can offer. We may produce this as a SkillsCast guide in the future but if there's any specific advice you'd like right now feel free to reply here or contact our Customer Experience team - Dave
Can I just add that during the 1960s and 70s there was a big change from vacuum to air brakes and also in the method of train heating? Mark One coaches started life as vacuum brake and steam heat, being steam hauled, and later on many were converted to dual braking/heating. Mark Two onwards were air brakes and electric heat. Many early diesels had steam heat boilers, even water scoops. Also all loco hauled passenger trains must have a guards compartment coach like the BSK because it carries emergency equipment.
That's correct Andrea, thanks for sharing. Whilst we were concentrating on the different clasifications used on today's stream, the changeover in heating and braking styles is no less important.
Have a look at the CK at circa 8:00 and you'll see the ETH cables that have been fitted for the electric heating. This is almost certainly an ex Midland region coach thus converted after the electickeration out of Euston in the 1960s as electric locomotives couldn't supply steam (yes, I know about the 76/77s).
@@PenzancePete in 1976 E15928 was on the Midland region but was steam heat, by 1978 she was dual heat and still on the Midland region. By 1983 she had been transferred to the Eastern region and renumbered to E7928. By1986 she was at Heaton in Newcastle where she ended her days with BR. What be me of her I know not, she may still be with us on a heritage line. Just because a coach has been fired with an ETH cable doesn't mean it spent any time running behind an electric locomotive. By 1977 the Toton based Class 45/1 for use on the Midland mainline and would have needed electruc heating fitted coaches. I think the fact that this coach wasn't fitted with electric heating until after 1976 suggests that she wasn't often hauled by electric locomotives during the colder parts of the year.
I think you're confusing the issue when you repeatedly say K - as in BSK - stands for compartment. When in fact your own table says it means corridor as in brake second corridor. A corridor coach is always a compartment coach - but a compartment coach does not neccessarily have a corridor - as in the old slam door suburban stock.
So all Hornby and Lima BR coaches like the blood - and - custards and the blue and cream intercities were class 1 coaches? Secondly, what was the red stripe? All restaurant or buffet carriages had them, My guess is that it denotes 'official or department areas. Most are unclear as to whether the blood and custards were the first official BR coaches post 1948 or the brown (LMS type).
Hi Mike, check out our Mark 1 and Mark 3 coach profiles which both contain a roundup of what models are available across the scales: th-cam.com/video/lor-JZAXEJs/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/Vee0yEPs-lk/w-d-xo.html
Anglo-Celtic Mark Carriages Throughout The Generations Productions 1. The English & Celtic Railways’ Mark Carriages 2. BREL Mark Carriages, A. Air Brake, B. Arc Roof, C. Redesign, D. Air Con, E. Edit, F. Classic 3. BREL Mark Carriages (Modern), A. ICE, B. Loco-Hauled, C. International (As Known As An “Intercity 125mph”) 4. Metro-Cammell Mark Carriages (As Known As An “Intercity 225”) 5. CAF Mark Carriages & Mark HST Carriages (Known As An “Intercity 250”) Prototypes 1. Cravens Mark Carriages 2. Swindon Mark Carriages 3. Crewe Works Mark Carriages
Ok well now that you have done something like this. I don’t suppose you have one about trucks or plan to do one? Be helpful for folks like me who are in the U.S. but model the rails of the U.K.
It really is quite impressive that the Mark Coach series has been going on for over 100 years 110 years to be exact.
Ever since the Great Central Railway designed their Mark 0 Coach in 1910.
Very informative, has certainly got me off the ground on this subject. Also really nice to see all the constructive comments and discussion below as other enthusiasts add their expertise. Thanks to you all, an excellent reference. Stephen
I agree Stephen - the videos are only the start of the great advice available on this channel, and thanks to everyone who gets involved to add more and more info.
Really enjoying your videos which link our models to real world examples and railway history. Keep up the good work please!
Thank you, glad you're enjoying the livestreams.
Really helpful and interesting. I had no idea about these more detailed classifications. Thank you. Keep the education coming.
Thanks Peter, glad you found the info useful.
Well done Dave, very interesting and helpful, I will have to watch this video again some time, 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍.
Thanks David, glad you enjoyed the video. It'll remain available on our TH-cam and Facebook pages so feel free to check it out when you need it.
The Stove R was not a train heating vehicle it was a 6-wheel full brake usec to carry parcels etc (Type Code BGZ if fitted with a gangways or BZ if it had been removed) that was fitted with a stove to keep the guard warm and very few full brakes were fitted with steam heating equipment.
That's correct Neil, apologies for the slip up!
@@HattonsModelRailwaysit is a truism that you never spot your own errors until you publish and then everybody else points them out. Been there, done that.
In the 1950s BR had 3 classes of seating, but most trains only had 2 classes (First and Third). Second class was only used on boat trains as some of the European railways had 3 classes of seating. BR built 15 Open Seconds for this traffic with 48 seats (a Tourist Third Open had 64 seats). These coaches only lasted until 3rd June 1956 as the European railway got rid of Second class. The 15 Open Seconds built for the Southern Region remained in operation as Second class coaches as all the Third class coaches were redesignated to Second class. After 4 years of rostering difficulties due to only having 48 seats instead of 64 seats, they reclassified to First class. The letter P wasn't used for postal/parcels vehicles by BR.
T = Tourist is an LNER term for some of their coaches.
Then there is the coaching and non-passenger carrying coaching stock TOPS codes.
There were corridor coaches in DMUs and sem-open coaches in EMUs.
Although it's a case of mix and match on preserved railways, with Mk. 1 carriages (my favourite kind), Main Line Operators usually stick to one livery of coaching stock. The Shakespeare Express, hauled by Rood Ashton Hall, is a classic example of this. The Shakespeare Express is made up of Mk. 1 carriages in the classic Chocolate & Cream livery. So it's the Glory of God's Wonderful Railway, from Rood Ashton Hall in Great Western Green to the coaches in Chocolate & Cream. Usually makes me think of one of my favourite types of dessert food, Chocolate Fudge Cake and chocolate ice cream. I don't intend to make your mouth water for it, so if I have made it happen, I apologise.
One mistake a lot of modellers and the preservations make is having all of their post-1956 Mark 1s in Chocolate and Cream as the WR only used these on the prestige services.
Hi Dave there were mk2/a/b/c/d/e/f coaches and mk3/a/b coaches also mate
Thanks Clive, you're spot on - there's a number of different build designs of these coaches but the classifications remain broadly the same :-)
Thank you Dave that makes things a lot clearer.👍
Thanks Richard, I'm glad I could help!
Thanks Dave, when you look at other classifications maybe a look at the various EMU/DMU models available, for example, the Southern's 4CEP, 4HAL, 5BEL , 4BIL, etc. Cheers Drew
That's a great suggestion Drew - a similar topic with a lot of unusual options. I'll add it to our ideas list and it may be a video that features on our channel in the future - Dave
What popular locomotives would have hauled Mk2 coaches? Thanks
Great potted history presentation. Many thanks.
Thanks for watching, David, glad you enjoyed the show.
Some good books out there on this topic; well worth a mention (even if out of print).
Hi Dave. Very instructional, thank you. Was there any kind of 'formula' for how to construct a rake of coaches in a train using these classifications?
Hi Paul, it can really depend on where and when the train was operated, although there's some hints and tips we can offer. We may produce this as a SkillsCast guide in the future but if there's any specific advice you'd like right now feel free to reply here or contact our Customer Experience team - Dave
A cracking video - keep up the good work!
Thanks Malcolm, glad you enjoyed the video and stay tuned for more.
Can I just add that during the 1960s and 70s there was a big change from vacuum to air brakes and also in the method of train heating? Mark One coaches started life as vacuum brake and steam heat, being steam hauled, and later on many were converted to dual braking/heating. Mark Two onwards were air brakes and electric heat. Many early diesels had steam heat boilers, even water scoops. Also all loco hauled passenger trains must have a guards compartment coach like the BSK because it carries emergency equipment.
That's correct Andrea, thanks for sharing. Whilst we were concentrating on the different clasifications used on today's stream, the changeover in heating and braking styles is no less important.
The early Mk2 had vacuum brakes not air brakes.
Have a look at the CK at circa 8:00 and you'll see the ETH cables that have been fitted for the electric heating. This is almost certainly an ex Midland region coach thus converted after the electickeration out of Euston in the 1960s as electric locomotives couldn't supply steam (yes, I know about the 76/77s).
@@neiloflongbeck5705 true, I forgot about them. Were they not all dual braked later on?
@@PenzancePete in 1976 E15928 was on the Midland region but was steam heat, by 1978 she was dual heat and still on the Midland region. By 1983 she had been transferred to the Eastern region and renumbered to E7928. By1986 she was at Heaton in Newcastle where she ended her days with BR. What be me of her I know not, she may still be with us on a heritage line. Just because a coach has been fired with an ETH cable doesn't mean it spent any time running behind an electric locomotive. By 1977 the Toton based Class 45/1 for use on the Midland mainline and would have needed electruc heating fitted coaches. I think the fact that this coach wasn't fitted with electric heating until after 1976 suggests that she wasn't often hauled by electric locomotives during the colder parts of the year.
Terriffic Presentation, Thank you. more please!
Thanks Keith, glad you enjoyed the show. Check out our channel for more Real Railway profiles and more.
I think you're confusing the issue when you repeatedly say K - as in BSK - stands for compartment. When in fact your own table says it means corridor as in brake second corridor.
A corridor coach is always a compartment coach - but a compartment coach does not neccessarily have a corridor - as in the old slam door suburban stock.
Hi Trainman, old habits die hard I'm afraid! But you're right - K of course stands for corridor :-)
So all Hornby and Lima BR coaches like the blood - and - custards and the blue and cream intercities were class 1 coaches? Secondly, what was the red stripe? All restaurant or buffet carriages had them, My guess is that it denotes 'official or department areas. Most are unclear as to whether the blood and custards were the first official BR coaches post 1948 or the brown (LMS type).
A co-ordinated trip through the available models (4mm scale) of all manufacturers (mk1, mk2 & mk3 versions) would be useful. Another day . . . ?
Hi Mike, check out our Mark 1 and Mark 3 coach profiles which both contain a roundup of what models are available across the scales:
th-cam.com/video/lor-JZAXEJs/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/Vee0yEPs-lk/w-d-xo.html
Anglo-Celtic Mark Carriages Throughout The Generations
Productions
1. The English & Celtic Railways’ Mark Carriages
2. BREL Mark Carriages, A. Air Brake, B. Arc Roof, C. Redesign, D. Air Con, E. Edit, F. Classic
3. BREL Mark Carriages (Modern), A. ICE, B. Loco-Hauled, C. International (As Known As An “Intercity 125mph”)
4. Metro-Cammell Mark Carriages (As Known As An “Intercity 225”)
5. CAF Mark Carriages & Mark HST Carriages (Known As An “Intercity 250”)
Prototypes
1. Cravens Mark Carriages
2. Swindon Mark Carriages
3. Crewe Works Mark Carriages
Ok well now that you have done something like this. I don’t suppose you have one about trucks or plan to do one? Be helpful for folks like me who are in the U.S. but model the rails of the U.K.