The Largest Road Network You've Never Heard Of
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 พ.ย. 2021
- The biggest road network in America isn’t the Interstates. Or the Federal Highway System. No, the biggest road network in America belongs to the United States Forest Service, who operates a network of forest roads over 300,000 miles long.
This staggering feat of engineering was constructed largely to accommodate one thing: logging. These forest roads stretch their tendrils deep into the American interior, all in search of fresh timber.
But even as logging has become less and less prevalent on our National Forests, these roads still remain. Now, they facilitate a wide variety of uses, including not only logging, but hiking, biking, fishing, mining, fire management, and more. As these activities continue to become more prevalent, questions will have to be asked about whether or not this maintenance-deprived system can, or should, stick around. Forest roads are a contentious topic in wild areas, and give rise to some of the more controversial and complex issues facing our public lands today. This video is a small introduction to these issues, but feel free to comment down below with your thoughts!
Enjoy!
Link to @OPB series “Timber Wars”: www.opb.org/show/timberwars/
These backroads saved my life. I would have crippling depression without access to the deep woods.
🤝🏻
I lost mine and can confirm that's exactly what happens
Amen
YES ABSOLUTY its worth every penny. Managing forest roads is extremely important to those of us that truly use them. It's a last bastion of wild, wide open freedom.
US forest road management government funding is a way better use of government funds than spending a trillion dollars on a ridiculous military budget.
Or sending billions to foreign countries. Make it easier for us to use the beautiful.lands we have here in the USA.
Having visited more than my share of National Forest Service areas, in my opinion, it might be best to return as much as 1/4 of the access roads to the forest. This would improve wildlife habitat, improve groundwater quality, improve aquatic habitats, and improve the "natural experience" of the visiting public without reducing wildfire access.
There are an abundance of roads that simply are not used except by a curious traveler or the NFS Rangers, and then only perhaps one or two vehicles travel those roads a month.
@@williamhaber4382 no sending it to foreign countries for ANY REASON is worse.
@@williamhaber4382 2023 the dod has a budget of 770 billion dollars, close to a trillion but you also have to take in the fact that the dod is one of the biggest Employers in the United States and they're not just paying their employees a good chunk of them they are housing, feeding, and giving them health insurance. And then they have to maintain all the equipment they have and then the infrastructure they're charged with maintaining, including a lot of Public Works project ran and operated by the US Army Corps of Engineers. So the budget on the surface seems ridiculous but yeah she dig into it and makes decent sense.
90% of my recreation is spent accessing forest roads, summer afternoons swimming at my favorite river holes, exploring the hundreds of mountain lakes we have, taking my dogs out to run around and explore (3-5x a week), dirt biking, dispersed camping, or even just escaping for a bit to re-center myself. I even get free permits to harvest rock for my landscaping. I am so lucky to live in an area that is almost entirely national forest, and the roads are absolutely essential to accessing these activities. I am saddened at the insane increase in traffic over the past few years but am also aware that it is public land and everyone has a right to use it.
What region of the US do you live around?
Yeah, at this point anything cool in the world is gonna have a big ass crowd of people on it to deal with. sometimes it just feels like we're too "late stage" in the world
@@calebmartinez9350 Mount Shasta, California
@@erikl85 I have wanted to visit there since eating at a place back home in Houston called the “Black Bear Diner”. I loved it and that’s where their first location was. They had pictures of it around the restaurant. I want to go to the original lol!
@@yoo909 Haha that's awesome! Yup I've been going there on occasion since they first opened up in 1995. In fact my first job was as a dishwasher there when I was in high school. How a large chain started in our tiny town is beyond me.
i grew up in the heyday of Southern Oregon and Northern California logging. i can tell you from personal experience, in the last 20 years USFS has gated off, made impassable and removed signage from many hundreds, perhaps thousands of miles of roads. Some having been in existence since the mid 1800's. These roads are no longer marked on their publicly available maps. It seems to me USFS is trying as best they can to mitigate the obvious negative impacts roads have on forests while fulfilling their legal mandates from a miserly Congress for an unappreciative and hypercritical Public.
Keep up the great work 🏆
i am a grumpy old man but dammit, you kids keep teaching me new things! Thank you! It's what keeps me alive. God bless !:-) 🙏
Thanks Barry, much appreciated!
You have Bill Clintons Roadless Act to thank for that.
@@thuringervonsausage5232 That was a Republican Senate and House.... the reason things were so good during the Clinton administration. Clinton was wise enough to not fight the Republicans over every issue for the 6 years he was kept in check. We all knew that Clinton had his own agenda, to rape the treasury every way possible to enrich himself and all his cohorts in the DFL party.
The USFS should be doing all it can to keep these roads passable rather than gating them off. It's ridiculous that they are closing some of these roads.
@@davidrocchini1051 It's Also a Law - Talk to Bill Clinton.
I've been deep in these roads all over the country. Sometimes well over an hour deep into the woods. Nothing better than exploring. People would assume that most of these are out west but there are plenty in the east as well. I remember one time camping on a service road literally 15 mins away from the large city of Tampa and didn't see a single car or person pass by for 2 and a half days. It's amazing
I’ve been lucky to hike more than 2,000 miles while living on the Olympic Peninsula the past 3 years. I remember the first long-ago decommissioned logging road I found. It was grown over with moss and small trees and I thought: where does this go? I then ‘discovered’ old Metzker Survey Maps (from 1903 through the 1990s), which enabled me to find the roads that disappeared from these maps over time. They lead to amazing hikes in solitude. And, most likely, very few people have walked/used those roads in the past 50+ years. These over-grown roads are a good mine for artifacts: old Texaco oil barrels; a double-bit axe; abandoned camps; high-lead logging cables; coffee cans from 1950s; not to mention stands of leave-trees that are first or second growth that were left behind by loggers. Amazing.
I also explored the Oly, amazing to learn the history and experience the the fresh air and the cleansing rain, some of the best moments of my life were alone on a lonely road in Forks, Wynoochee or the Humptulips.
I worked on a GIS project in 2006-2007 to help classify NFS roads to be "decomissioned" from the road system (those losing antiquated permits). The goal being to keep those in use and re-permitted, and discard those going fallow. It seemed righty minded. I saw many roads fully used being kept in the field, and many that were on maps but washed out and in dis-use. It was a sensible triage.
GIS is such a powerful tool. Sounds like a great project for it too!
That's awesome!!!
I drive forest roads every day living in New Mexico. I love your channel, please never stop telling the story of our country's beautiful wilderness.
Not planning on it! Thanks for watching and glad you're enjoying everything!
YES!!! It is!! Not only for public access but to fight wildfires, it is essential that we have access to the areas. If not, the areas will burn uncontrollably and will all be lost.
Forest roads need to be further maintained not more so for recreational or exploitive purposes, but for fire management. I live in southern Oregon and the majority of forest fires that ravage our forests, are very hard to reach at times and can only be fought by aircraft. Also the practice of underbrush clearing as almost been completely abandoned resulting the forest being turned into a match box; along with other forces driving the increase in fires.
I love forest service roads here in Washington state! What really bothers me though is some federal roads are closed as the land is leased to private logging company’s that are not actively logging.
The USFS does not "lease" any lands to private logging companies, period. Not sure what you are reading to give you this misimpression. The agency offers timber sales, by bid, to private loggers. The land belongs to all of us. Some roads are closed or "put into storage" between harvests. No private logging can occur on FS lands without a detailed timber sale plan created by, advertised, vetted by various law, and offered by the agency
Another well presented video! I love exploring these old logging roads. They enable a lot of access for hiking, camping, hunting, fishing, etc., to remote places that would otherwise be relatively hard to reach. That being said, I'd love to see many of them removed and/or restored, turned into hiking/biking trails, or left to regrow. Historically, we have not been very responsible in our exploitation of the natural world, but fortunately, things are slowly changing. One change that I think would make a big difference in managing these lands with an ecological mindset is to move the USFS from under the Department of Agriculture, to the Interior Department and possibly merged it with the BLM (who also has a very large road network). In many places, particularly the west, there is a lot of overlap of land management priorities and the efficiencies gained alone would free up quite a bit of money that then could be used to help fund the management of these lands. Anyway, thanks for a great video! - Mike
Thanks Mike, I always appreciate your insight. I wish I had more forest roads near me, I've always enjoyed exploring them as well. I haven't read the whole report, but GAO at one point did evaluate the possibility of moving USFS to Interior, but recommended against it (www.gao.gov/products/gao-09-223). I think that's a salient point about management overlap and efficiencies though. Management costs and visitation are only going to increase, so these agencies are going to need every bit of help they can get.
fun fact: the USFS used to belong to the Department of Interior but was moved to Agriculture by Gifford Pinchot himself.
Great video! I’m originally from an area with many, many miles of forest roads (NE Minnesota, along the Canadian border.) Spent many hours driving the forest roads, especially during high school 🤪
Thanks for watching!
There's a lot more forest roads that have declined and degraded, and some non-existent anymore.
I live (and explore) near the Shawnee National Forest in Southern Illinois. I have explored old forest roads from old maps. Many are overgrown and some look like they go over a cliff with no evidence of a road in sight..
Yes Southern Illinois has cliffs, in fact the Shawnee is one of the most unique landscapes in the nation with endless towering bluffs, natural arches, caves, crevices, waterfalls, balanced rocks and lots of odd rock formations
Went camping there once I think and got lost trying to find the campsite but eventually found somewhere to pitch a tent
FSRs which aren't being used for logging should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis - does the road lead to something valuable, like a trailhead, a favourite popular fishing lake, a backcountry ski area? Maintain the road and keep it open. Does the road just lead to a dusty old cut block? Destroy its access and return that area to the wild so that wildlife can utilize it again in greater peace. Habitat fragmentation is a very serious issue which leads to a drop in genetic diversity in our wildlife, meaning that our wildlife become less healthy, less able to cope with life's challenges - roads are also a serious, unnecessary threat to their wellbeing. Give them more areas where they need not worry about people - except for the odd rugged off trail hiker or dedicated subsistance hunter or forager. (And many animals, like critical carnivores such as cougars and wolves, can't cope very well with human presence. Giving them more peaceful less-human zones means that they can do their jobs keeping the environment healthy without us constantly stressing them out.)
It’s the hidden secrets so many roads that some never get driven on for weeks on end
I love going into the national forest system way more than the NPS
Good, quality video. Can’t wait to see you with +50k subscribers
Thanks for your support! It's been really exciting to see the channel grow in the last few weeks and I'm pumped to tell more park stories.
Love the subtle Nova Scotia, Canada shout out at 0:51 👀 my husband is from Nova Scotia and instantly recognized that spot as the border crossing between New Brunswick and Nova Scotia 🙃 beautiful shot!
5 Billion dollars is nothing compared to the value that the access provides.
Heck, as a one-time catchup expense, it's nothing compared to any part of the federal budget! It's less than 0.1% of what we spend every year. Do it, government! Then increase the annual spending to 750 million or whatever it needs to keep up. Maybe buy two fewer F-15s to pay for it.
Lots of car enthusiasts drive the hell out of forest roads, too.
Timber extraction is critical, the forests these days have between 5x and 10x trees per acre than they did pre-columbian, which is why the forests are burning down at record rates, too many trees, to high of a density.
This is my bread and butter. I am a forestry student at the University of Montana and forest policy and management is my highest interest. I love our forests and I want to be a part of the conversation when it comes to how we should manage our forests in the West. I think it would be a great topic of discussion for you to talk about the Great Burn of 1910, one of the most influential events to the Forest Service and the Rocky Mountain states. Many of the problems that we see in our forests in Montana stem from the effects of the Great Burn, more specifically, the actions taken by the Forest Service because of the Great Burn.
Update: I watched your brief history of fire lookouts video and I now feel silly
I think you're right though. I touched on the Great Burn a bit on my fire tower video, but it might be worth exploring a bit more in detail to talk about its impacts on usfs policy. Thanks for your comment!
We need the roads to fight fires as well
Very true, great point!
@@NationalParkDiaries Since the pandimic more people have hit the roads traveling, overloading our parks and recreational spaces and hopefully our national forest lands can relieve some of the pressure. But the garbage dumping has been a real problem. It is sad that our culture doesn't take more pride in our public lands.
It's absolutely worth it. The land exists for the people, not the other way around. We should steward our resources well but we should also enjoy our resources.
The dinosaurs 🦕
Was my favorite logging show growing up. 🆙
“Not the mamma, bam 💥”
Good stuff 🥰
I am a certified pth professional Timber Harvester for the Missouri Department of Forest Products. There is a lot of times we do work directly for the conservation department. Logging when done right is very good for the environment in fact it's one of the best ways to store carbon without using another form of energy and that carbon stay stored until you either burn the boards or let them rot.
I agree, but, logging has a pretty sizable carbon footprint
It is worth mentioning that a huge network of these roads on USFS and BLM managed lands are used to accommodate grazing and ranching.
The USFS did come out a few years ago with a mandate to update motor vehicle use policy and Motor Vehicle Use Maps to attempt to reduce the number of roads fragmenting some national forests and establish recreational guidelines including dispersed camping corridors in some areas. Some of this is contained in 36 CFR 212.56 and the USFS website has more information but the implementation and specifics of management appear to be up to individual forests. Under these plans a lot of networks removed a lot of spur roads for motor vehicle travel by gating or barricading many roads.
Additionally establishment of the USFS wilderness areas did effectively close off road access to sometimes very large segments of forest where old road beds still exist now as hiking trails Kachina Peaks Wilderness is a good example of this.
I know a lot about this topic just from my love of hiking in remote areas. A few ideas:
- These lands should be transferred to the department of the interior (like the national National park service). Multiple use management strategy, or as the late author and advocate Ira Spring termed, “multiple abuse,” is inherently at odds with itself. You can’t both manage for recreation (public use) and environmental preservation with extractive or destructive logging and mining. You can’t preserve a forest by cutting it down. Preservation is both for the benefit of people as well as nature. Wood demands can be met by a combination of the the private forest (or private tree farm) industry and through more sustainable reusing of old lumber. Furthermore we build WAY too many single family suburban housing to the point that building anything else is illegal in most neighborhoods.
- I would be cautious about decommissioning just any roads that see very few visitors, because there’s lots of abandoned trails, abandoned campgrounds, lesser used trails, and off trail waterfalls and designations that more experienced hikers go to, and need many of those backroads to get closer access to. I’m thinking about off trail waterfalls and abandoned trails in particular. I’m also not a fan of decommissioning a road just because there’s not enough funds to fix damage, even if the damage is routine and often (such as glacial washouts). Instead more funding needs to go to the forest service. It’s insane that the National park service has such a larger budget than the forest service, even though their road and trail miles are far less and their total managed area is smaller. Both need more funding, but the forest needs way more. Moving it to the department of the interior would make it so that it isn’t reliant on much of its funding coming from timber sales.
There’s still some room for road decommissioning though, but careful thought needs to go into which ones to decommission. Good examples to decommission would be very old logging roads that are getting overgrown and have degraded so much so that all but the very adventurous off-roaders use.
-We have lost a vast majority of our hiking trail networks built mostly during the Great Depression to both logging road construction and trails being abandoned. Some of these are still able to be followed, but most have since disappeared almost entirely. We need to double the size of our current hiking trail and campground network, because the current network isn’t enough to meet the demands of a growing population. Instead we’re decommissioning trails and campgrounds when we should be doing the opposite. The best way to mitigate the environmental impact on on trails, campgrounds, and forests from too many hikers and campgrounds is by building more trails to spread people out, not confining them to a small set of trails. For example, if an out and back hike becomes too crowded, the solution is to build another trail to it, to make a loop to spread hikers going both ways. Putting in limited entry quotas and fees isn’t the solution we should go to first; it should be a last resort solution. Of course there will still be areas that need it, but many crowding issues can be solved by expanding our trail and campground network to spread people out more.
I love your avatar! As someone who lives full time traveling between national forests I wholeheartedly agree. Far too often I come across gated roads which, when I walk down them, would be perfectly useable. I need these roads not just to survive, but to thrive. Accessing the deep woods has been the key to unlocking my crippling depression. Perhaps I should take up the hobby of lockpicking. 😅
The USFS road network is one built out of necessity, not convience. Most of those roads are not maintained and no, they aren't all built to a standard. Most of them were put in place as logging roads or for fire access and prevention. The amount of maintained roads in the USFS that are actually engineered to a specification is probably equal to or less that then the NPS has.
I do a lot of backpacking in New England and I often see forest service roads on my maps. It’s good to know if something went wrong there is a way out. I just hiked the Long Trail in Vermont and there is some logging being done but it’s never to severe. I live in a rural New England town and loggers and town people get along fine. I own a large area of land and my neighbor owns a massive amount and logs it. They cut up to my property and were very respectful and now they are gone and the forest is making a come back. I myself let my tress grow and plan on leaving my land in a trust to grow forever. People need wood though and people need to work. In the rural areas jobs are very hard to come by especially when it’s very rural and there is no tourist attraction around.
Absolutely YES. We need these roads! And in decent shape.
In short: If you want people to give a DAMN about preservation, they have to be able to access and see the forests with their own eyes
I live in the Idaho panhandle and a lot of these roads are in such poor condition now that the ONLY way to get to them is with what's basically a rock crawler
I agree with that sentiment. My entire conservation philosophy is built on getting people out into nature to see how important it is and how they can help protect it. Thanks for your input!
US national forest roads are pleasant to drive on. There’s usually very few cars on them and it’s relatively quiet. That’s probably also why I haven’t seen construction on these roads once. I drove through these roads to get between cities. It was sometimes faster or the only way to access my destination.
depends where you live. i used to do the same, but about 13 years ago the national forest (where i live) has closed most all of our old roads. they have also made sure the rest of the remaining roads only have one way in and one way out (the same way out as you came in). some of them are open on both ends, but small section in the middle has been closed to keep people from passing through. Even worse, they close ALL the national forest roads during the winter :(
Craziest statement I've ever heard. National forest Roads are so Bad it's impossible to maintain 25-30 mph, you must live in Iowa?
@@thuringervonsausage5232 Iowa doesn't have any national forests. FS roads vary in conditions, plenty allow you to go over 30mph. Plus, some people find slow offroading to be pleasant!
@@TheOutbackid OK Algona Iowa Have you ever been west of the Mississippi?
@@thuringervonsausage5232 For the record I am indeed an Iowa resident, I am sitting 175mi or so west of the Mississippi as we speak! I think my total state tally is at about 42. We do have a couple state forests but no NFs here unfortunately.
creating vested self-interest is the main way to ensure the continued beauty and conservation of our national forests... the forest roads help me for example, to be able enjoy two of my favorite pastimes, car/van camping in dispersed campgrounds/sites and riding motorcycles on forest and fire roads anywhere i can.....those two main ones among a handful of other enjoyable activities i partake in while camping in one nat'l forest or another throughout the year. lumped all together, they create and engender a continued sense of vested interest in ensuring these nat'l forests remain, well just remain, full stop. without the forest roads, as extensive as they are, ppl would have less of a vested interest and responsibility to the forests and that is when they would become tragedies of commons, which would be a shame for us and the flora and fauna who we share this country with... so yeah, so mark me down for being a fan of the forest roads for sure.
One small benefit of Forest Service Roads that I've seen is helping researchers and conservationists. I've worked on several wildlife and fishery studies/management projects that relied on these roads to get to and from remote sites. I'm glad that the extractive uses in national forests are declining, and that many roads are being decommissioned, but I also see a useful conservation impacts of keeping at least the bigger arteries open to the backcountry
Excellent point, you're completely right!
I love driving forest service roads around Colorado. I didn't realize that there were that many miles of road though
Roads I used to travel around the forest on have become gated with no entry by ANYONE. This whole thing is do to the ecologists who know they are right, have the ear of the government agencies and don't care about what most other people are interested in.
That is not the reason - Know what you are talking about before making a statement. Bill Clinton instituted the ROADLESS ACT at the very end of his Presidency. That is the reason.
That happens everywhere, in NY they keep restricting ATVs for "environmental damage" and then the Snowmobilers are the ones who widen paths so they can go 80+ mph, and then the next summer thr logging company comes and clear cuts the mountain taking litterally everything, and yet its those ATVs that are the problem.
We live in a very all or nothing society and jts infuriating that nuance is dead. You can log wild forrests without clear cutting, you can actually do it smart enough to help the forrest but thats harder than litteral clear cutting. (Or almost clear cuts where ~1 tree per acre is left to reseed the area)
It would be nice if we could just set up some rules but still permit access. Regulate that only minimally destructive logging is used, forbid the taking of rocks or certain plants (in my area Queen Anne's Lace is a tiny evergreen thats on the endangered species list because people kept picking it for decoration, is now feels like its everywhere).
But instead NY plans to own everything themselves to protect it instead of just regulating what can and cannot be done in the woods.
What the hell? Are you serious?
YEAH IM SURE THE MINING AND TIMBER INDUSTRY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, THE WHOLE LOCKED GATES THING.
@@gravit8ed Why are people so Ignorant of a Law - an Act that was put in place. They dream up the weirdest Crap? It's cuz Aliens, It's Cuz Russia .... educate yourself Meat Head.
Great video thank you 👍🏻
Thanks for watching!
Great video
Thanks!
In British Columbia you can just look at a side of a mountain and see many logging roads. There is so much to explore!
Forest roads are very important here in Arizona for quickly addressing wildfires. No doubt the fires would spread faster without an easy way to move equipment around.
I spend about 80% of my life out in the national forests of the Pacific Northwest and I can tell you that almost all of the problems you speak about at 3:30-4:00 roughly don’t exist where I’m at. There’s times I’m way up somewhere in the forest and don’t see another person for weeks at a time. Now I know it’s different in all the places that are within a mile of pavement or are within an hours drive of a large town or city. But I drive all those back roads and camp wherever I happen to be when its time to make dinner lol. We have natural springs that just bubble up to the surface after working its way up through all that volcanic rock that filters it. And it will make a little stream that will join other springs and form a small stream that will run for a mile or maybe 3-4 miles then disappear back into the earth. And that all takes place so far back up in there that the water never shows on a map and nobody knows its there except me and the animals lol. All I’m saying is there might be some of those problems back when they first cut those roads in but after they finished their logging and replanting and cleaned up their mess all that nonsense stops. In fact now when they go to do some logging you would think they were working on the flower beds at the white house because of all the regulations imposed on them.
Love my national forests. Good video
Thanks!
Great clip! I just subscribed.
I've climbed Pikes Peak with my truck back in 2020. It's a 14000-feet drive to the top. I always wondered how the big machinery made the road. The road is very narrow and the machines feel too huge and heavy to make it up top. If you can explain that in a video, that would be great!
Welcome to the community!
Colorado Springs is 6000 feet above sea level, so the road climbs 8000 feet, not 14,000.
@@darrellhay I still find it interesting how it was built. I've seen some of the heavy equipment at the top. I argued with my friend it was dropped down by a helicopter lol
You'd be amazed what you can get up a hill with enough effort. Check out Ghost Town Living here on YT if you want some firsthand video of something similar on a smaller scale. Also, consider yourself lucky that you got to drive up. You no longer are allowed to drive to the top, you have to take a bus up the last leg. Most of the road is also paved now.
@@TheOutbackid Oh, wow. We always look for new adventures. Many smaller cars were not allowed to climb up Pikes Peak. They had to take the bus.
i drive on fs roads everday
Nice. Which forest?
If 2% of our timber supply is from NF, then sadly we’re getting the rest from other, less regulated sources.
unfortunately as someone who lives near one of these old timber harvest areas, theres been a significant decline towards less and less harvest and therefore less funding. But that money the fs was bringing in wasnt just benefitting them, it was also benefitting the communities. my community is just now starting to find a footing in the tourism industry as we're extremely close to portland oregon. although, the locals arent as fond of it because its leading to a major rise in prices for basic goods and especially housing, possibly a gentrification tactic but thats just an idea. either way, a lot of the funding for the forest service has been cut due to the loss of how much timber they can harvest, which in my area has led to a big chunk of the forest service roads being decommissioned due to the lack of funding for basic road maintenance. there needs to be more open discussions throughout all of the forest service on ways for them to be able to harvest some of the land with the modern consideration for conservation at the forefront. because at this rate the funding mainly through forest service passes (at least in my area) is unsustainable for them. that being said i dont work for the forest service currently nor have i ever, but these are views ive come up with from speakings to many former and current forest service workers.
They are essential to my mental health. Just 5 min away from the Shenandoah National Park in VA. More than happy that my tax money helps maintain those roads.
I often use the roads through Ocala National Forest, but not the Forest Roads since they're all dirt roads and I don't have a four-wheel-drive vehicle.
I LOVE the interactive USFS service map, its awesome for mtn biking. i just find old, closed to motorized traffic, roads and make routes on those in the forest here tonto NF and coconino NF
bro the answers to your question is so simple, logging in one area, preservation in another area
idk if you’re taking video recommendations but it would be super interesting to see a video like this covering canadian forest service roads although i don’t know how accessible that information would be
Probably worth looking into for sure! Not as knowledgeable on Canadian FS, but I'm always interested in a good land use story lol. Thanks for the suggestion!
Yes it is absolutely worth it
Defined going to drive from Maine to Hawaii after watching this video.
Killer video man, this hits close to home because I live only a couple miles from BLM land here in oregon, many many camping and hikings trips have taken me down some of the scariest and most beautiful ex, and currently operating, logging roads you could imagine. I've seen log trucks fly down shale rock roads heading up a steep grade that's barely eight feet across with seemingly reckless abandon, and then head up myself to get a christmas tree. There's nothing better in this world than a two lane road with a washed out red sand-stained guard rail heading up a mountain on a cold foggy morning to a lake that you really have no idea whether there's any fish in it or not.
Thanks for watching!
I used to build Logging Roads for Weyhauser co in Washington state I wonder some times how many of these roads were on Weyhauser land or forest service land?
Well done. Would like to see more videos on this topic.
How are roads prioritized?
Where does that 500milion/year go on a park/state level.
How are road 'decommissioned' or left to return to nature?
Do these roads of classifications that would help recreational users understand which roads match their vehicle type? Can I drive this road in a prius or do I need 4wd?
Do the road types have slope/grade limits?
Listings for maintenance status?
Can backcountry users find useful info online or do we just need to look at roads via google map view?
Those are all fantastic questions - thanks for asking! I'll be sure to keep those in mind for future videos. In the meantime, if you have an affinity for boring, bureaucratic documents, I think this one from the Forest Service touches on a lot of your questions (It is from 1998, but the organization info remains pretty much unchanged): www.fs.fed.us/eng/road_mgt/roadsummary.pdf
@@NationalParkDiaries Thank you for the link!! I perused it and you are right, it has some very good information. It's a good starting point to learn more about the park system roads. Hopefully there has been an update to this in the last 20 years, lol.
Look forward to more info about the forest and park system on your channel
@@Chris-ut6eq No problem! It wouldn't surprise me if that is the latest update lol. Thanks for watching!
your local forest service may have a map of the forest service roads. The slope is whatever the truck can get up, as many of them are old logging roads.
What if we institute a plan to replace sections of the forest road network as they degrade, with a sustainable alternative that thwarts runoff pollution? I think we would need to establish runoff-prevention practices and readdress the financial burden with that idea
th-cam.com/video/RyIc4ApqYMo/w-d-xo.html here's a video on "thirsty concrete" in Yellowstone, are there problems with this technology that make it inaccessible as a solution to the forest road network pollutant contribution?
Those are great questions. I have a couple of thoughts on them. For roads that are inaccessible or are not being used, I think we can simply decommission them. The USFS already has a process in place to do this. For the rest of the system, I think the biggest hurdle will be funding. As big as the system is, maintaining it while minimizing ecological damage is a huge challenge, and doing so requires a lot of money. Any solution is going to require massively increased funding for USFS.
As for the "thirsty concrete," I'm not super familiar with how that works, but I think that could also be used in limited applications. I'm not sure how viable it would be on a scale as big as the USFS road system, but maybe in more popular areas that are already paved?
Thanks for your comment!
@@NationalParkDiaries I really enjoyed the video! I've been researching the USDA Forest service, and reading a lot of the technical reports from the northern research station. Good collection here for information!
Thank you! The USFS is just fascinating to me, especially since it lies at the intersection of so many public lands issues today. It's had to shift from a totally extraction-based mindset to a multiple-use one in the course of just a few decades. Plus it manages one of the largest land portfolios in the federal government. Makes for good story possibilities too!
Would you mind linking those reports? I'd love to take a look myself. Thanks again for contributing to the discussion.
One thing I don't think this video did a good job is showing is that the vast majority of Forest Service Roads aren't paved to begin with. This video uses a lot of generic clips of ordinary rural roads which doesn't at all capture what most Forest Roads actually look like. The majority are what are called Maintenance Level 2 (ML2) roads which are un-maintained dirt tracks only accessible by high clearance vehicles. Paving these roads at all, let alone with fancy "thirsty concrete" would be an enormous effort which would also destroy the character of these roads, which are mainly enjoyed by off-road vehicle enthusiasts who enjoy the challenge of driving them and their remote backcountry feel. These roads typically need very little maintenance, and most maintenance is done by users of the roads, such as Jeepers cutting downed trees and pulling them off the road or using hand shovels to fill in washouts. The impacts of these roads are also vastly exaggerated by environmental groups who want to close them and turn all National Forests into Wilderness areas.
Please talk about Ecosia they are a search engine that plants tress..
I'm for forest preservation. Although trees do need to be cut down, at least they should be replenished.
The federal highway system stretches from Maine to Hawaii!??! No, not really, I get what you are saying in a theoretical kinda way, but in actual usage there is a significant water gap involved.
The decision of whether or not to abandon a road's maintenance should occur on a case by case basis. Obviously, do not keep a road a for the sake of its existence, but dont neglect roads that have value. Their is a nuanced balance and it will depend on the location, market dynamics, environment, and recreational demand... I would be cautious about abandoning forest management altogether. For instance, the pacific northwest is grossly mismanaged, and that has directly attributed to wildfire intensity and property loss. Neglecting the road network would make management more difficult than it already is.
Save our trees, plant more hemp
"Make the most you can of the Indian Hemp seed and sow it everywhere” -George Washington
I spent my childhood around Timber, Oregon. (Obvious name is obvious.) Later I lived at the end of a county road into the mountains outside McMinnville Oregon (way outside) that continued on as a forest road. Those forest roads lead to some of my favorite places on earth. But you can't deny the environmental impacts they have. I do think fire suppression will only become more crucial and more difficult as time goes on, and climate change gets worse, and forest roads really do play a part in that. Also, OPB has so many phenomenal documentaries.
Second that OPB recommendation. Have you listened to Timber Wars?
@@NationalParkDiaries I have! It's exceptionally well done. I was working as a volunteer in conservation education, going to elementary schools with education animals, including owls, in the 90s. And it had such a major impact on even pop culture at the time, like an episode of X-Files investigating the disappearance of loggers in the midst of ecoterrorism.
I grew up watching Art Beat, Oregon Experience, and Field Guide, also. There are some really excellent, iconic episodes of Field Guide, especially, that stick with me. There was a great episode years ago about elk returning to the scientific exclusion zone around Mt St Helens after the eruption, and the way they've impacted that environment in the absence of both human and predator interference. It always comes to mind when I see documentaries like yours on the impact of predators on the ecosystem.
@@Tser I really enjoyed it also. I've come across several of their stories when researching for videos and they're always top quality and highly informative. Great production team over there!
Something I see a lot of people here getting caught up in 'You Can Give But You Can't Take Away' as my Park Managment professor put it. But it's really important to remember that the USFS are deeply involved in multi-use managment. This 'the most good, for the most people'. The unfortunate fact is that forest roads have major impacts on not only their immediate landscape, but also on the whole watershed. And the watershede effects a lot of things so important for that mission statment. If we're to minimize these impact we need to maintain the roads and with so many that's not very feasable. For the most part a lot of areas Best Managment Practices (BMPs) as advise the decommisioning of roads as soon as the harvest is done.
Not only logging.. which can be beneficial to our forests but also for wildfires as well.. which happen more frequently on lesser maintained forest..
To come up with all those figures you have a got to be one super nerd (LOL)😆 You ask an age old question, Access versus protection. What is the value of having a wilderness if people can’t get to it and enjoy it? What is the value of creating so much excess that the wilderness disappears? National wilderness areas is one answer, and I for one absolutely love them. The elderly and handicapped who love the wilderness also need some form of access. As you say at the end of your video the answer is not easy and frankly may not exist. I just love your videos.
Not going to lie, that was the most math I've done since college lol. But yeah, definitely an interesting management challenge with no easy answers. Thanks for watching and contributing to the discussion!
The most number of uses, for the most number of people, for the longest amount of time
There was a tremendous surge of road building by the Forest Service in the 1980’s. Since then, not so much, plus budgets for maintaining forest roads are but a fraction of what they used to be. Upshot is that there are a _lot_ of abandoned and neglected roads in our national forests.
A well done video. I appreciate that you raise many important issues without an obvious bias. I am a logger and landowner and drive Forest Service roads in the Pacific Northwest frequently. I feel strongly that the existing roads should be maintained to the appropriate standards. In Oregon under that Forest Practices Act passed in 1972, forest roads are required to be maintained to protect natural resources, in particular water quality. In the Northwest in particular forest roads were built to a high standard, with an eye towards the future harvests that the management plan was designed to provide. Although they have suffered greatly from neglect, they still are fine examples of engineering and need to be put right promptly. As you point out, road construction creates a significant impact on the environment. I would also add that decommissioning these roads creates a significant impact with the added loss of important access. Forest Lands were cut heavily in the past, but carefully replanted with an eye to the future. These forests are now in desperate need of management for their health, fiber recovery and fire prevention. The access provided by well maintained forest roads is critical to fire fighting, hugely important in this time of unprecedented fires. Unfortunately, given the general publics callous disregard for the natural environment, I also feel strongly that many forest roads should be gated to control access. I see evidence supporting my position on a daily basis. Where access is open there needs to be supervision to insure that the forest is protected. I also feel that we need to recognize that we, as a nation, have interrupted the natural forest cycle on these lands. With this reality comes the responsibility to maintain these roads, and the forest lands to insure the health of the forested lands appropriate for management and to protect all of the forest resources from fire and other degradation. If allowed to be implemented in a logical and practical manner, sound forest management could fund the budget for the restoration, repair and road maintenance required. Thank you.
Thank you, When one considers that the trees, the first rounds of photosynthesis, {remember the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees} being consumed for human lusts for wood, fuel, permanent structures, then the consequences then like you pointed out then pollutes the waters, which then pollutes all living down stream, vicious, oroboros cycle
It really is unfortunate. I wish we could look at these places as having more than just economic value. They have a beauty and importance in their own right.
@Brad Olson thank you Brad Olson, what a nice thing to say
I live on a forest road in the temperate rain forest on the western side of the Coast Range of Oregon. There is corporate logging all around but checkerboard by BLM land allows for sanctuary.
You should know that those dirt roads allow people to actually use all of that public land that belongs to us. It’s used by hikers and campers, entire families enjoying a weekend out of the city, or to play in the snow during the winter. Those roads allow us to get way far up rivers and streams to build fish weirs and restock native fish. Also hunters use those roads to get into some rather remote places where they camp and then walk in farther. That ensures that animals such as deer and elk aren’t over hunted in the areas that are easy to get to. They allow us to relocate nuisance bears far from humans rather than putting them down. Those roads allow those of us who fight wildland fires to be able to get everywhere that lightning strikes which is the number one way forest fires are started. I fought wildland fires for quite a few years and without those roads we would have never got them under control. I do have to confess that there’s been a few times when I was deep in the forest and nature called lol so I took my little shovel and dug a hole a ways off the path and sometimes you forget to bring some toilet paper lol and you just have to make do with using a spotted owl lol make sure its beak down lol those things are everywhere lol. Do you know where they found the majority of spotted owls? 2 places number one was in the cities lol Portland, Seattle Tacoma and number two was all along the edge of clear cuts lol apparently it’s easier for them to see their prey when there aren’t trees in the way lol lol
Does the giant empty part of northern Maine apply to this because I see plenty of roads on google maps but no houses anywhere near 🤔
Technically, no. There are no National Forests in Northern Maine.
True as that may be, lots of them are "roads" always fun regardless to go down them.
Recreational users do a lot to keep roads and trails passable in the long years between the logging company coming in and gutting the place. Simply using trails keeps them open but they're also the type to bring in hand tools when needed.
That's a great point! There are a lot of dedicated people who work to keep trails and public lands accessible just on their own time and effort.
It wouldn't surprise me if the declining logging the past few decades have played a role in the increase in wildfires we have witnessed the past several years.
It appears to me that logging is mostly portrayed in a negative light, and at times that may be correct. But I think if done correctly, well balanced ecologically, it can be beneficial for the forest and wildlife.
Wildfires are a tricky subject. Climate change is exacerbating them considerably with hotter temperatures, drier forecasts, and less snowfall (which extends wildfire season even longer). On top of that, our fire suppression policies over the last century have prevented small scale fires from burning, which causes massive amounts of "fuel" to build up. As for logging, there's not a lot of evidence to suggest it's beneficial for wildfire suppression: www.opb.org/article/2020/10/31/logging-wildfire-forest-management/
I also have a video which goes into a bit more detail if you're interested: th-cam.com/video/tazp_YrLyNo/w-d-xo.html
logging and bad practises from the past are the main reason why you see forest degradation and wildfires. Obviously we can't go back in time but you wouldn't see these issues getting so bad If we had left the virgin intact forest alone and now we have climate change on top of that
This man said you can get from New York to Philly in under an hour. There's so much traffic good luck m8
Forest roads are important simple (relatively) infrastructure. It's benefitial to have paved forest roads to limit ground destruction during loging and allow access to road-designed vehicles. It's important to maintain certain ratio of paved to gravel roads to unpaved. Logging can be sustainable and profitable with modern and old technology if there is selective logging in selected areas. Some areas shouldn't be touched for decades or at all to maintain healthy ecosystems.
A very good and accurate video. Roads were funded to a large extent from timber revenues. Most of the roads where I'm at in SW WA were built to access timber. The Gifford Pinchot NF had over 5,000 miles of roads when logging was king, and I've driven nearly every mile. Not included in the mileage are many 'spur' roads built solely to access timber sales. Spotted Owls are just about extirpated here now due to habitat removal and the incursion of Barred Owls, which loved the fragmented forest left by logging. Many roads can't be driven now because of lack of maintenance, due to lack of funding. Many people dislike the loss of roads but it's better for the forest ecosystem and streams. Healthy ecosystems respond better to stress and the western US is certainly being stressed by drought and wildfires. Insects have been declining and that will also stress everything else as they are an important food source for many birds and animals. Plants may suffer too from lack of pollination. I loved driving the roads and exploring, and I still do, but the cost in CO2 emissions and degradation of the land is too high these days. We need to be better stewards.
Cool, I've been there! I went to the 2011 Rainbow Gathering which was in the Gifford Pinchot NF, hours down dirt roads. I've got a documentary about it on TH-cam, it was in a very remote area.
I have worked on several projects with the USFS to close some of the forest roads. So many of the extensive road network is unnecessary and are problematic for water quality and ecological reasons. The sediment source has greatly impacted fish and wildlife populations. Maintain some of the roads and close others.
That seems to be the general sentiment I've come across as well!
You missed the others that have full access to drive on these roads that have been gated. Water and power utility, communications (cell service), and Native Americans. If anything there should be a permit to access them instead of being closed off.
A much reduced network seems fitting to the situation
Maybe I have a biased opinion living in CA but we need to bring back private logging. When forests are left to overgrow, it leads to an over vegetation and when wildfires happen, it destroys more in its path than what we could have prevented. There is a fine balance when it comes to conserving our forests and leaving it out to exacerbate potential natural disasters.
this is primarily a result of bad forest practices and logging from back in the day. it costs too much to properly bring those lands to what they were so its either start from scratch or let nature do nature
@@javen69 it’s no different than mowing your lawn. You maintain your lawn regularly, it looks well kept, healthy, and able to withstand harsh weather conditions. You don’t, it’s left to over grow, fungus starts to form in the yard and sections of your lawn start dying off. And not to mention, bringing back logging reduces dependency on timber we import from overseas and lowers the cost of manufacturing homes.
@@javen69 also, it won’t be as expensive if you allow private logging companies to go in and thin the forests themselves. Government wouldn’t be able to monopolize it, sure but there is a demand for timber and that would bring about many different logging entities to get the job done as they compete for claims and whatnot.
Personally, I'd like to keep the roads that go to areas of human value (trailheads, scenic vistas, and other recreation areas) while letting the remaining ones go falliw to restore the Habitat to its natural state.
95% of the time that I visit a National Forest, there's no one else around to be counting me.
Good luck i know of several fs roads that are closed by land owners hear in Northern California that have been public roads since the gold rush and the FS will not go to bat for the public.
Forest roads are the life line to fun it's sad to see all of the road closures driving down a forest road and they are slowly disappearing from existence, I hope that will change in the future but it dosen't look like it will, I will just enjoy what is left of forest roads. It would be nice if the USFS got that 5 billion dollar budget.
also video footage of clear cutting isn't what forestry services do, likely video of private land.
Did no one notice that he claimed the highway system stretches from Maine to Hawaii?
There’s a crazy housing crises andid like to see a few more trees cut down (and replanted) to create more affordable houspopulation
Wdym from Maine to Hawaii, do you think there's some bridge spanning the Pacific?
Hawaii has interstate highways.
Can you do one on BIA roads... Many are as bad as Nat forest roads...
Forest service roads are great. They really help with field work in national forests, and they’re so fun to drive on! We used them extensively doing field work, and some of my favorite memories come from traveling along forest roads in central idaho, moving along rolling hills with a gorge over a mile deep close by. We would not have gotten as much geologic data as we did without those roads
perhaps extraction should be done in 50 year cycles. one year spent logging from a specific location, then after that year the logging is done in a separate forest, leaving that one untouched for another 50 or so years before extracting from it again
I love Forrest roads
"Never heard of"
>less than a mile from a forest road
lol
The main use of our forest is heating in the winter. Firewood is cheap if you have the time and equipment to process it yourself
Where do I stand on these issues? I say that people that live in the big cities of this country shouldn’t try to tell the rest of us what to do. What they need to do is come out west and partake of a week or two enjoying our public lands and they would then understand why we need to keep them open and free. And id be a bit skeptical about the amount of money needed for maintenance on those roads. The forest service being a government agency works in a weird environment of how to keep the budget high so they waste money left and right because anything they don’t spend this year gets taken away from them out of next years budget. So they dont have any incentive to fix all the roads it’s actually the opposite lol. If they fixed all the roads then that money would get cut from the budget and some people would get fired or retired out and not replaced. Of course two years later they would need the money to make repairs that have popped up since they fixed the roads previously lol. And so many of the people who work there are related I’m not kidding. They’ve been hiring friends and relatives for decades lol. The roads need to stay open and the only damage I’ve ever seen them receive was created by big rigs hauling timber out.
shouldnt the normal municipal road system be at least thousands, probably more like millions of times larger than the highway system
Collectively, yes. But they are not all managed by the same agency like the Forest Roads or the US Highway System.
You forgot about paper. Check out how much paper comes from the U.S. and Canada. It might blow your mind. A little bit...