Commander X16 technical deep dive
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- The Commander X16 is a "modern" retro computer which promises to finally realize David Murray's goal of being the upgrade to the Commodore 64 that everyone wanted. Let's take a deep-dive look at it and see what makes it tick, and see if it's any good.
0:00 Intro
2:56 Commander X16 design and capabilities
20:46 The VERA: the heart of the X16
33:52 Check out some X16 software
52:15 Q&A about the X16
55:41 A very special surprise
58:57 Outro
--- Info
VERA = Versatile Embedded Retro Adapter
Intro music: Eternity by 4mat (Matt Simmonds)
modarchive.org/index.php?requ...
Used with permission
From Modarchive:
Matthew Simmonds, also known as 4mat or 4-Mat, is best known for his chiptunes. Most of his music is found in the form of tracked music files (modules). He began his career in the demoscene of the early ’90s, progressing to commercial games where he has worked on titles released by Konami and EA. 4-Mat’s latest work can be found on his Facebook page:
/ 4matofficial
--- Video Links
8-bit Guy Commander X16 videos:
Building my Dream Computer
Part 1: • Building my dream comp...
Part 2: • Building my Dream Comp...
The Commander X16 has finally arrived:
• The Commander X16 has ...
Commander X16 2023 update:
• Commander X16 2023 update
Commander X16 forums:
www.commanderx16.com/forum/in...
Commander X16 documentation and repos:
github.com/orgs/X16Community/...
github.com/X16Community/x16-d...
VERA programmer's reference:
github.com/X16Community/x16-d...
github.com/X16Community/vera-...
Commander X16 emulator: (click on releases to get the most recent)
github.com/X16Community/x16-e...
Adrian's 8-bit Dance Party for the Commander X16:
cx16forum.com/forum/viewtopic...
Furnace Chiptune tracker:
github.com/tildearrow/furnace
Adrian's Digital Basement Merch store:
my-store-c82bd2-2.creator-spr...
Adrian's Digital Basement ][ (Second Channel)
/ @adriansdigitalbasement2
Support the channel on Patreon:
/ adriansdigitalbasement
-- Tools
Deoxit D5:
amzn.to/2VvOKy1
store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.16...
O-Ring Pick Set: (I use these to lift chips off boards)
amzn.to/3a9x54J
Elenco Electronics LP-560 Logic Probe:
amzn.to/2VrT5lW
Hakko FR301 Desoldering Iron:
amzn.to/2ye6xC0
Rigol DS1054Z Four Channel Oscilloscope:
www.rigolna.com/products/digi...
Head Worn Magnifying Goggles / Dual Lens Flip-In Head Magnifier:
amzn.to/3adRbuy
TL866II Plus Chip Tester and EPROM programmer: (The MiniPro)
amzn.to/2wG4tlP
www.aliexpress.com/item/33000...
TS100 Soldering Iron:
amzn.to/2K36dJ5
www.ebay.com/itm/TS100-65W-MI...
EEVBlog 121GW Multimeter:
www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/
DSLogic Basic Logic Analyzer:
amzn.to/2RDSDQw
www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Logic-DS...
Magnetic Screw Holder:
amzn.to/3b8LOhG
www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-...
Universal ZIP sockets: (clones, used on my ZIF-64 test machine)
www.ebay.com/itm/14-16-18-20-...
RetroTink 2X Upconverter: (to hook up something like a C64 to HDMI)
www.retrotink.com/
Plato (Clone) Side Cutters: (order five)
www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-5-10PCS-...
Heat Sinks:
www.aliexpress.com/item/32537...
Little squeezy bottles: (available elsewhere too)
amzn.to/3b8LOOI
--- Links
My GitHub repository:
github.com/misterblack1?tab=r...
Commodore Computer Club / Vancouver, WA - Portland, OR - PDX Commodore Users Group
www.commodorecomputerclub.com/
--- Instructional videos
My video on damage-free chip removal:
• How to remove chips wi...
--- Music
Intro music and other tracks by:
Nathan Divino
@itsnathandivino - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
A few updates in a pinned commend:
- I solved the video capture issues but only after completing the video. There is a setting in the OSSC that remedied the darkening of the video.
Can you tell us what you had to tweak in OSSC? I was planning on using an OSSC as well, and I'd love to skip the "trial and error" phase.
Also, I'm not very happy with my specific OSSC box. I'm not sure if it's a hardware problem, but I have noticed (with other sources) the left side of high-contrast images get a blurry edge on the left side, with the luminance getting darker to the right. I definitely do NOT see this problem on a VGA monitor.
I'm hoping it's not a problem endemic to the OSSC overall.
@@tomwilson2112 I have not noticed such a thing on my OSSC yet ... can you tell me any particular systems & games where this behavior is more prononunced so I can check on my unit ?
Thank you for this in-detail tour and portfolio of this well designed 8-bit platform, Adrian. And please let us not be ashamed to honor your important role as one of the "fixer" guys for the Commander X16 mobsters community ... :P :) (meaning: based on your important design and usability feedback and your expertise with home computer electronics.) So thank you for the latter and the video!:)
Now to my opinion to a sidenote, something unimportant: I think the Through Hole Technology approach gives this design a very appealing character. Watering this down to CHEAPNESS and SMD would be a sacrilege. But that is only my opinion. Of course this design has also to be available for a reasonable price ... so fighting reality with my opinion of "the art and love of old-scool'ness" isn't an option. Also having two (or more) designs is putting pressure onto the hardware designers and their lives (poor Kevin!).
Well, its complicated, as this is (hopefully, hehehe) not the road to commercial success, but for old farts (with due respect) to show the younger generations how they could get reasonable (as in "reasoning") access to computer technology. I mean, we old farts where mostly confronted by accident back in the day with computers, some of us stayed ... learned, got in love and fell into that rabbit hole. The advantage for us (at that time ... maybe you can confirm that, Adrian?), which is pure coincidence of our birthdate, was that we as humans were still able to survey such systems in their ENTIREITY. In fact for the ECO-SYSTEM of the ATTINY "Systems-Processor" (Build tools, libraries, compiler, not even mentioning the production of the hardware, here) ... every little bit surrounding this MCU by a multi billion $ company (which gone through many hands, btw), it is too complex to print even an error free manual;)
Also the optional approach, the expandability of a systems isn't a bad way to go. At least this will make me feel like back then ... dreaming about my own 1541, or amber monitor, without jealousy towards my class-mate ... Hehehe:)
Thank you again for showing this off, Adrian. And the whole design folks and community around David who helped to birth this dream. Von Neumann, Zuse, Nixdorf, Ada and Chuck Peddle would be proud of you all!;)
❤😂 oh now we are ready for a real
Moon Mission 🚀🪂😂
It's very interesting that through-hole off-the-shelf parts which started out as a sweet spot for DIY is continuously shifting towards luxury pricing. Cars we call vintage today were once just old and cheaper than a new car. Once they get old enough they become rare and coveted.
This appears to be also true for through-hole 80s-style computers.
I made a post the other day comparing GenX's love for vintage computers to be like our parents were about classic cars or mines case model trains. I got the mustang I never got as a teen but still looking for the Amigas that were lost to time/one of my mothers cleaning sprees. I kick myself for not buying them when they were cheap on ebay before the batteries killed so many. The electronics world is changing. In my line of work station owners expect microprocessor/fpga based new stuff to be repairable like the 80s audio gear my predecessors fixed. I can do some SMD work but most of it is not even a modestly equipped engineer can fix it anymore because it's all custom baked in house stuff that can't be off the shelf replaced anymore.
There's lots of through-hole parts you can still buy brand new. And honestly, surface mount soldering is EASIER once you actually try it.
Millennials kinda have a similar thing as well with a bit later computers (I'm pretty sure the first computer I ever used was a 68K mac), and I guess zoomers have even later computers at least for a little bit, but later zoomers and uh, nyoomers, won't have anything of value. Phones that you can't repair with spyware and macrotransactions that ruin you don't count, sorry, I will defend this hill with my life and am willing to die on it.
That's sad. I guess nostalgia (that doesn't hurt you) will be forgotten as a concept. I wonder if life is worth it or if we should mercy-destroy ourselves intentionally.
@Adrian, thanks for the much needed technical breakdown. 8-bit guy does a wonderful job with his more simplistic overview but ur deeper dive is ALSO very much needed and appreciated. So thank you for this. No one else could have explained this better.
Always amazed at how well this guy speaks. Even for us non-techy guys he makes this stuff very interesting.
Right!? The way he describes stuff, the small ramblings, upbeat tone. His videos have inspired me to dive deeper in electronics repair :D
Okay, the music intro and then lead in to your own theme was awesome.
I would actually like to see this project sold as a DIY kit that you mostly assemble yourself. I love assembling electronic devices like this. I find it fun and relaxing and you get a much better idea on how everything comes together. Of course components like FPGAs and large surface mount packages and super tiny surface mounted components would be preinstalled but all the through hole components I would solder in myself. I love doing that kind stuff.
I remember years ago my dad bought me a DIY transistor radio kit from RadioShack made by RadioShack. It was lots of fun and it worked. Unfortunately, it disintegrated due to a flood as the case was made out of cardboard.
I agree. Not sure I'd be interested in a pre-built one.
This would be a pretty tough build for David's audience I think. I don't blame him for not wanting to do kits.
Dave already complains about how long it takes to box video games.
@@JG-nm9zk Dave complains about a lot of things.
@@wishusknight3009 Why have an all through hole device that isn't a kit. Also why aren't the plans Openhardware so that if somebody did want to make it themselves they could
Excellent video - very detailed and informative, with enough details for specialist and fast skip for enthusiast.
Thank you very much @Adrian!
Now that was an extensive review and thanks for answering the questions 👍
Adrian, you really know how to sell (the concept of) the Commander X16 and the Vera board. You definitely renewed my interest in the project and am sure your video will boost interest in the project in general. Well done!
I'm happy to see that you were given a board, and mentioned ON the board since you pulled the X16 project out of the fire.
The thing i love nost about the CommanderX16 is the free Community Drama DLC
Well deserved drama
Drama? Can someone explain?
@@skvader4187ignore it, he’s one of the nay-sayers
it’s a real shame. the cases were a total scam
@@skvader4187 Best I can describe it is like people who put money down on the cyber truck and ended up that the truck costs more and doesn't meet the promises it made
Thanks for this great video, Adrian! And for all your help in getting the prototype working. The X16 is a very exciting project and I can't wait to see what people will do with it once they have the hardware in their hands.
That's really going to depend on how much. I'm disabled and would love to have this since my C64 and 128 are now gone but i can only afford so much.
@@davidmiller9485 the early units will be more expensive, but the cost is going to go down a lot for future production runs and generations
@@slithymatt As if there will be any future production runs. The market for this thing mostly exists as backers of the Kickstarter.
@@talon12020 As sceptical asxI am, I think there is enough interest for another revision. I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least a full FPGA version released, as that's probably the only way to make it truly affordable. Or perhaps a really pared down version for those that want one, but didn't like the idea of crowdfunding it. But the Agon Light is still the fly in the ointment.
Very, very cool! Thanks for the overview.
57:04 The jumping head and the gummi bears, it's hillarious 😂
You’re NOT just another guy. Man you know sooooo much. Ty!
I'm so jelly! Looking forward to enjoying this Video:)
Thanks for the detailed review. I can understand your excitement about the system. It looks great! Looking forward to seeing the production units.
Dave has said that the availability of the sound chip has become an issue. Seems most of the ones from Chinese suppliers are COUNTERFEIT.
And anyone with any experience would know that. It's why he was advised to use FPGA clones when he started. But he would not listen.
@@bzuidgeest So, on one side you have people salty about the FPGA graphics chip, and on the other side you have people salty about not using FPGA.
@@jonasthemovie very much so🤣.
@@bzuidgeest I wonder if the graphics chip at least has enough oomph left in it to run the FM sound as well
@@jonasthemovie Yeah for real people trying to have it both ways lol
Love your dance party, great demonstration of this system, thanks Adrian.
thank you very much Adrian for this exploration into the commander x16! Looking forward for the final product and if they ship to europe, too 🙂
Yes 1h of Adrian showing cool stuff. But as always time flew by and 1h felt like 15min or so. Cool project!
I can't wait to see how this computer progresses.
I don’t think it will because tech is already available. It’s not like in the beginning of the computer era where tech developed.
Great intro tune selection! 4mat is a genius
Cracking dance party, besides the very clear breakdown of the board and components 🎉
I've been following this project from its inception. It's a noble effort but so many of their current problems were easy to foresee. When embarking on a project like this you have to decide what business you want to be in. Designing the system, writing the software, shipping the Gerber file off to Asia and getting back blank boards are all very doable and fun. But manufacturing? That's another thing all together. They have been populating these boards by hand and have been having great difficulty manufacturing even the 100 boards they need to get out to developers. When I saw they bought a wave soldering machine to speed this up I knew they were in trouble (they're warping the boards).
They thought they could get thousands of Yamaha sound chips but they were lied to and now they have to source them individually at 10 times their original price. Many of those individually sourced Yamaha chips have turned out to be fakes.
There's a reason that most electronics are built in Asia. Their economy (and labor costs) are very different than in the west. Also, when big companies release a computer they contract with vendors for millions of units which gives them very good prices.
There are many decisions I feel they made that were well thought out. The ATX power connector, the Nintendo controller ports, etc. But the bad decisions were the difficult to obtain chips (Yamaha) but mostly the decision to incorporate the Vera plug in module which is very versatile but FPGA based board which defeats the purpose of an 80's retro machine. Why not make the whole thing based on a better FPGA (like the Mister).
A project in development overseas is the R800, an FPGA based Atari 800 from a company called Revive Machines which right now is vaporware. But if it becomes real, I'm very interested. Depends how expensive it ends up being.
I hope that the X16 is a success but the odds are against them. They have a scaled down version in development without expansion slots and they may have a big company that has expressed interest in manufacturing it. They call it the game system. They haven't said who that big company is.
Just FYI, the current big version of the X16 is at least $500 and is referred to as the development system.
I don't mean to be negative about this as it is obviously a labor of love but the days of a couple guys designing a computer system in their garage are long gone. Apple did it almost 50 years ago but even back then they needed an Angel Investor (Mike Markkula) to invest a small fortune to make it happen ($250,000 line of credit and about $90,000 of his own money, more than a million dollars in today's money). He also negotiated a 26% ownership of Apple. Mike is a billionaire today.
Sorry this post is so long.
Only difference between them and apple is that the X16 isn't meant to beat any sort of competition or revolutionize anything. It's just a fun community project made by people interested in the hobby. While David is a bit over his head...which, well, we all kind of know that about him at this point, he is still capable of getting stuff done, as are the people he's working with. Given that they've even gotten this far is a good sign.
Also, while I get people are frustrated by the FPGA for video, it seems like people are beating a dead horse at this point. Even they didn't want it to be an FPGA. And since you mentioned the MiSter, for all we know someone will release a core for it down the line. The system already has a complete emulator available.
The SNES controller ports were stupid too. But agreed, when you start adding fpga, you've lost the entire goal of the project.
David's reasons for choosing the Nintendo ports were that they were easily available in quantity, cheap and easy to interface with. Many viewers would have preferred Genesis ports but I can understand his thinking on this. Another smart decision was to make the MB standard ATX size so it could fit in almost any standard case.
Dip logic is a major selling point of this machine: if you want to shove the whole thing into an FPGA, then you could just use the emulator and be done with it; the vera board is analogous to a custom video chip in the olden days. You make a comparison with early apple, but, uh, technology moves forward?? the chips are dirt cheap, PCBs are dirt cheap, and they do have a significant amount of capital. Not a remotely reasonable comparison.
@@901aerol Many successful implementations of modern 8-bit computers have an FPGA in it. Look at ZX Spectrum Next and Mega65 as cases in point. Just incorporating an FPGA doesn’t invalidate the purpose of the system
45:18 - "Again, Ignore the darkness." - me to myself every morning.
Great video! Well worth the bandwidth. Makes me feel like it's 1983 again!
This is such a great project, unfortunately I've lost the programming skills I once had (BBC B Basic at school & commodore 64 at home) These videos are good to watch, I really hope the trend of reviving and re-using older systems and technology continues. There's so much stuff out there waiting to be used so good luck to you all, go forth and create!
I'm excited to watch your take on it as I was pretty unimpressed with David's last video on it.
What did you expect? Did you back the project?
@@Dinnye01 why should you back it up to be impressed? most open source projects don't have backing and are usually something to be really impressed with. I think the issue with this product is that the core features and decisions were locked by what David wanted, which might not be what everyone wants.
@@cocusaryeah, well, that’s how projects devised by one person work. You can never provide what everyone wants, it’s just impossible
thank you for fighting for 240p! If I ever get my own Commander X16 I'll want to use it with my AppleColor RGB monitor that the IIgs and SNES are sharing atm!
Just another extra complication on top of all the other "little" complications that plague the X16. It's scope has changed so much since David's first video, nobody would recognise it. Feature creep is what gets projects like this in to so much trouble.
This video was pure joy!
Looking forward to having it soon!
I just pre-ordered one of the next batch...
So I loved the initial idea of the X16, but after seeing the cost creep up and movement towards FPGA, I'm starting to just not see the point. Why not just make it an open source MiSTer core at that point? The DE-10 Nano is pretty much the same cost (or cheaper) than the dedicated board... Maybe it's just me but I'm not really seeing the point anymore. Not to cast shade on the hard work that was put into it, it is a cool product, but one I'm not really interested in picking up any longer unfortunately
I agree. I never really felt like the X16 filled any kind of niche. So, I never saw the point of it in the first place.
Agree... but different strokes for different folks I guess. I think it would have been really cool if the community could have coalesced around an inexpensive "modern" 8-bit retro device at a Raspberry Pi-like price but don't see that happening. The Agon Light seems to be the closest to what I was hoping for. Still will be interesting to see what comes from this, especially with the emulator being available.
I do think the price is higher than it's worth right now, but I still plan on getting one as soon as it comes out. This is a project I've been following since David's first video on it and I want to support them. If they don't make enough on the first wave, the whole thing is dead on arrival.
I don't know if you have been watching all the updates on this project but it has been announced that the boards like the one in this video are the Pro level ones for developers - as in people who are looking to plug in expansion cards and possibly design them. There is a cheaper version being produced for the average user so don't be too put off by the price on this particular board. Also, it is not exactly cheap geting a Mister system running as you need a couple of other expansion boards as well as the DE-10 Nano in order to run many system types.
The chip shortage seems to have not only affected the supply chain, but also I would imagine even design considerations. I keep looking to buy a Colour Maximite 2 or Mega65 and they are perpetually unavailable. But on the X16 it's sort of curious why they did use FPGA in key areas and then have a Yamaha chip that is no longer made.
That SID at the end sounds really weird, like it's missing some channels. :P
So used to hearing your 8-bit dance party on the C64s in your videos.
Thanks for the video, it makes many things about the Commander X16 much more clear.
I'm so glad they fixed the mouse pointer being hidden in R43. Looking good!
Speaking as a grizzled veteran of many 1980s flamewars, it's clear that the Commander X16 and its competitors have succeeded in recapturing the spirit of 8-bit computing. I'm enjoying it - fights about the obvious superiority of your favorite system have always been part of the fun.
Or it could mean that a lot us in our 40s and 50s haven't really grown up since school. 😂
@@OzRetrocomp I'm going with this opinion.
@@mopspear Yep. Never underestimate the eagerness of a bunch of people to pick a trivial attribute, tie their identity to it, and rally around it like their lives depend on it.
@@OzRetrocompyes my friend you hit the nail on the head. 😂
I never understood the 8-bit flamewars to be honest. Maybe because me and my friends with 8-bit computers realized there are already 16-bit Amiga 1000, Macintosh and 32-bit PC-AT and their graphic and sound were so much better. So any 8-bit flamewars was pointless for everyone who realized that any 8-bit was already dead at that time. 8-bit was just affordable fist step into home computing. However in any society there is always some percentage of primitives who enjoys such tribal habits as flamewars.
Ok, I loved that updated 8-bit dance party! I got a chuckle out of that. You've GOT to show that more often in your videos.
At first, I had thought that perhaps it could be used occasionally as an outro (NOT always) for your videos, but then... I thought, why not consider using that as an outro for videos on the second channel? I think that would be pretty nifty.
dunno about that updated 8 bit dance party ... I'm not feeling it ... the drums have no punch ...
The gummy bears were a nice touch! 😆
it's been a little while since i used my mister, is there an x16 core available for it? seems like the perfect platform for it and i'd love to play around with it some
There’s a software emulator for it but no FPGA core
Great video!
I think the new 8BDP should become an intro or outro for certain videos. It would be interesting to see it every so often. Glad to see more on the Commander X16.
2:11 heh.. somebody is "excited" to get his hands on the X16 😜🔥
🤣🤣🤣
I have no idea what this is, or what it does, but it's neat watching you explain it.
One of your best uploads ever 👍👍👍Thanks 🙏 Adrian 😊
The Video Display Processor (VDP) used on the MSX 2 and MSX 2+ are actually off-the-shelf parts, descendants of the original TMS9918: The Yamaha V9938 and V9958.
The problem with them is that, besides being old parts, they are quickly becoming VERY expensive. I bought a 9958 for my Omega MSX about 1 year ago for US$ 35, recently the same seller was asking US$ 60!
Damn! Perhaps we need a FPGA replacement, if possible.... so Omegas could still be built.
I did look at those chips and they certainly seem to do a lot -- taking over a lot of functions of other circuits too. It means they have a high pin count meaning that a pretty fancy FPGA would be needed, not to mention a lot of level shifters since these FPGAs all run at something lower than 5v.
@@adriansdigitalbasement There is a drop-in FPGA replacement for the TMS9918 (called F18A), and of course V9958 cores for the One-Chip MSX (OCM) and related systems, but AFAIK no option that could be used on a little board as a drop-in replacement for the real thing. I have no idea how hard it would be do do that, either.
When I built my Omega, I bought extras of almost all parts in the hope of building one of two extra boards to sell. But with the current prices of the V9958... and there's also the issue that, as a high value chip, it is VERY common to get fakes and a pain to get refunds later.
@@rigues isn't the F18A getting expensive due to its FPGA being end-of-life? There's a TH-cam video of an enthusiast who created a PCB adapter using a cheaper and more modern FPGA and then installing it in his NABU.
@@TheJeremyHolloway I don't know, I don't follow the project. The 9918 is easy to find and still plentiful, so I had no need to search for a replacement. Will try to find the video you talked about!
@@TheJeremyHolloway You're referring to the tn9k_f18a. It seems like a good path forward for the F18A.
Q: So, if the expansion / cartridge slot was reduced to just one as in a cost-reduced version, and set at a right-angle so cards slot in parallel to the board, does this mean something similar to a expander cartridge on the C64 could restore the ability to add more than one card?
It's a parallel bus, so yes, that would work up until the length of signal traces and parasitic capacity of components starts to cause communication problems.
Yes. And since the expansion bus is designed from day one for 5 total I/O banks, you will have a far easier time running multiple expansion cards together. If the cards are built properly, with user selectable I/O ranges, you won't get the kinds of conflicts you do when trying to use multiple C64 expansion port devices together.
@Adrian's Digital Basement did you enjoy the ROM flasher?
Adria, I know you're more a fixer than a builder but it would be absolutely fantastic to have a video of you creating an adapter for the vera for the apple // (or vic20) !
Will you pick up the gauntlet ? ;oD
I became a computer user with a 486 DX2. I never went through the Commodore as a user. But this board? I might buy that. It's beautiful, and looks like a lot of fun.
What you need is an emulator.
@@Okurka. Or a real C64 or some other retro computer. There were so many to choose from. But an emulator will give him an idea ofcwhat he missed.
Hi @Adrian'sDigitalBasement, great episode! I thoroughly enjoyed this one, especially your enthusiastic 8bit dancing at the end. :) I seem to recall you mentioning in a previous episode you were born in 1975, is this correct?
Can two VERA boards render alternating scan lines, like 3DFX SLI?
8 bit dance party... oh yeah. ❤
Very interesting project, but it seems a solution in search of a problem. If you want authentic 80’s vibes, there are a lot of lovely Commodore and Atari machines out in the cold who would love to be saved and adopted. I really appreciate Adrian restoring and preserving computer history.
And a lot of modern solutions to make using them easier.
I think David mentioned this in one of his videos, but the problem with the old computers is the steep learning curve they have to being able to use them effectively. The X16 has a much simplified hardware programming model (similar to, but not copied from, the VIC-20). E.g. pixel addresses in a framebuffer can be trivially calculated on X16 and don't have to be in a weird pseudo-tile mode like C64.
As many people writing X16 software have said - programming on the X16 is "fun".
@@Wavicle in addition, it’s a good entry point if you don’t have experience fixing older computers since it’s difficult to find reasonably priced working older computers.
@@Wavicle Going to be even more of a steep learning curve on a machine with no support.
No Atari's or Commodore's that's in economic range here in northern Scandinavia
Nice intro, Sir!
Awesome intro mod from 4mat 😍 (frameskool by equinox)
If they think vga output is ancient, wait until they discover the cpu :D
The CPU came out in 1975...
@@michaelblair5566 The 65C02 came out in 1983...
@@Okurka. Well technically yes the 65C02 is 1983 but the 6502 was 1975.
@@Okurka. and its just as capable as the 1975 6502. 1976 if you discount the ROR instruction.
Hey Adrian, fan of your channels (been subbed to your two main ones from my personal account for years). One minor semi-correction on the topic of sound...
The YM2151 was typically paired with 16 or 32-bit systems - it's most often found in systems powered by a 68000 (Sega system16, x and y boards, Capcom CPS1, various Irem boards, the sharp x68000 and MANY more). Usually the CPUs in those systems run between 7 and 12 mhz. However... these systems also often include a z80 that runs between 3.5 and 4 mhz to specifically manage the sound. In some cases though, that second "sound" CPU doesn't actually do much of anything.
I've been following the x16 from the very start. I think it's an interesting concept and enjoy seeing the videos on it and what it can do, but honestly it seems pretty impractical, especially from a cost standpoint. I know the goal has always been to reduce cost over time and shrink it down and I'd really be interested in it if it ever hits a price point of somewhere around $100. But I know we're a long way away from that.
Anyway, thanks for all of the detailed videos on the x16, c64, apple II, amiga and everything else!
Not really that far from $100. There are FPGAs that have enough LUTs for the entire system. The VERA or the YM2151 ones are not the big. They are big enough to do the job. The reason the DIP one is getting the attention it is, has to do w/ the demand. A lot of folks said "$300-500 and it will have socketed DIPs. When can I get one?" Is that everyone? Nope. But it is plenty to justify the effort.
@@njspencer79 I agree. Personally I'm only interested in a DIP version. FPGA is so close to software emulation, that I see nothing intriguing.
Thus
@@njspencer79 Also, there is a natural development path. If it can be done with the through hole parts and glue logic, it can be done in FPGA, but the reverse does not automatically work -- you can easily implement chip select logic in FPGA or a CPLD which will have to much gate delay if implemented with glue logic. So the X16 Dev Board is the hardware reference board, and the cost reduced "Surface mount ASIC" board for the X16 console and the X16 FPGA version can aim for compatibility with the Dev Board.
@@brucemcfarling6594 Yep the path being taken albeit a bit slower, is a path affords the possibility of a low cost FPGA version.
@@petermuller608 Yes, that's the thing. There are different demands out there. I can't pay an extra $150 for through hole parts, so I am waiting for the X16 console. But I want an expansion port, so the FPGA version is not for me.
Very cool, thanks! I don't think you really needed to turn down the music during your demos. Your voice was clearly audible. ;)
got a question about these 80x25 text resolution that needs to be squashed. As the Commodore 128 also had a resolution of 640x200, and text mode of 80x25 , did the C128 also squash that text resolution ?
Not needed: The professional RGBI monitors that the C128 80 column mode did use have picture size controls. It is mainly televisions that use overscan and depend on borders.
@@danielmantione my question is about the VGA connector on the X16 connected to a LCD monitor, not the televisions
@@fernandlehners7787 Inj that case, no squashing is needed on the CX16 and the C128, designed for professional CRTs, still hadn't any need either.
I've built a few WDC65C02S based computers. When you push the clock speed the components you use have to be able to deal with it. Those SRAM chips have a 55ns access time which is pretty slow for a 10MHz clock.. along with all of the latency introduced with the RAM select (and other logic) propagation delays.
Yes, if you decide to use SRAM-chips in 600mil-DIP, you get slow and crappy SRAM. Seems to be a design goal. But the CX16 is soo great.. !?
Hence the 8MHz system clock on the Dev Board.
@@deterdamel7380 Yeah, why not add modern, super fast DIMMs? Why not add an Nvidia RTX GPU too? And make it multi-core, each with FPU and 2MB cache per core. Oh wait... it's supposed to be an 8 bit 6502 based, retro computer. Speed is not the primary goal. 🙄
@@another3997 No need to reply, if you don't know what SRAM is.
@@brucemcfarling6594 Yes, 8MHz, due to the selected fantom-soundchip.
The cartridges are more than likely going to be how expansions are handled in the future, given the plan to revise the case with cartridge slots, with the idea being that slot 1 would be for a game and slots 2 to 4 would be like for ram, co-CPUs, drivers, memory mappers and GFX cards.
So that dance party bit should totally be the new channel intro hahaha
To clarify @ 5:02 Commodore introduced a two button joystick for compatible 8-bitters with the C64GS. And the Amiga line supports the 7 buttoned CD32 gamepad. Adrian probably just isn't aware because games tended to also be 1-button backwards compatible.
Just to add more context. Tehtris is a game written in Prog8 language. That's a specialised language which compiles to 6502 assembly (it supports C64 too) by a member of the community DesertFish.
As someone that designs cloud computing systems all day long, I find this extremely refreshing 😂
I was about to say "out the into music back to the old one!" 😁 then yours came back! 😁
Does it have a c compiler available?
I like a lot of this system. It would be nice if you could use it with some flavor of 6809 as well. as the 6502.
I hope that they took all the basic graphics commands and have the Vera implement them in the FPGA to make them super fast.
Overall a very interesting system.
iirc there is a c compiler for the x16
Every time I hear "VERA", I think of the "Video Electronic Recording Apparatus", an early form of video recorder system that was used by the BBC that used razor-sharp thin metal "tape" at high speed (pre-dated spinning head VTRs by a few years), and produced quite a wobbly picture, and if the tape went wrong and came off the reels, it was apparently quite lethal, it was featured in a section of "The Secret Life of Machines" on the video recorder... :)
I think of Jayne's rifle. ;)
Surprised they never tried using a wire - you could get a whole lot more thin wire onto a spool than a wide strip of tape.
@@kargaroc386 Presumably the speed at which the metal tape was running would have been too much for wire to handle, given even audio recorders that used wire would snap too, something the size of the VERA unit would have been even more lethal if they had wire whipping about everywhere like cheesewire... :S
As I get more and more into electronics, working with surface mount has become a necessity, though hasn't been too bad after I got a heat gun.
I still haven't mastered BGA though.
Indeed -- I still do prefer to stick with through hole, but that's mainly because I like using stuff from the 70s and 80s :-)
You should have been a college professor, Adrian. The way you explain detailed topics in an understandable way is top-notch.
A weekend treat♥️
Really cool system. The idea of using individual ic’s is neat. Many don’t like the FPGA video board but I agree with it since many monitors still have a VGA input. Some compromises were likely due to not really any other 8 bit video Chips being available anymore. The only serious mistake I think the X16 team made was selecting the ym2151 sound chip which is not available in volume. Seems like they should have just stayed with the PSG and PCM sound and call it Christmas. Still a neat project and I like that it will fit into an ATX case. I look forward to seeing a cost reduced version with less VIA’s, less RAM and only one expansion slot and also using SMD versions of the components. I wonder if a VERA cartridge could be developed for the C64?
I was myself wondering about the Vera on an ISA card and wondering if it could be made to do the various modes like CGA, the various CGA+, Tandy 1000 graphics etc. Like an all round retro graphics card.
@@weepingscorpion8739 now that would be worthwhile especially Tandy graphics. Then one could add it to any old xt. One can already add Tandy sound to an XT.
Yes, the Vera is indeed C64 compatible. Designing a cartridge should be trivial.
@@weepingscorpion8739 Allthough the VERA is designed for a 6502 bus, building an ISA card with a Vera on it shouldn't be hard. Making it emulate CGA and other PC graphics cards won't work. The fact alone that it has "just" 32 registers would already prevent this.
@@danielmantione Ah! I didn't know that. That's a bummer. Thanks.
2:24 That project was a sub $50 computer using off-the-shelf parts.
Would adding a 132 x 43 text mode be possible? That was my prefered resolution in MS-DOS for programming and worked well 😀
Not really, as he mentions it runs a fixed 640x480 resolution which means each character would need to take approximately 4.85x11.2 pixels in that "grid" - and it would have to implement this by integer scaling scaling the fixed 8x16 pixel font.
I suspect calling the result "unreadable" would be charitable! All the text-modes are oriented around this - basically toggling borders, double width and double height as needed, except the 80x60 which appears to run with all off and a 8x8 pixel font - I guess it's possible it's always an 8x8 font and even 80x30 is scaled but it doesn't look as rough as that should look.
As he mention later this does mean the sides tends to get cut off in high-res mode on CRTs if the program doesn't use borders. I suspect that if anything could make them change how it works that would be it, but they seem fairly set into this, I don't see a fixed crystal so it MAY be a "small matter of programming the FPGA". But FPGA programming isn't easy.
@@Torbjorn.Lindgren yep the oscillator is fixed which is why doesn't have variable pixel clocks. It's all part of making the design as simple and inexpensive as possible. The font is actually 8x8 which is why 80x60 is actually the default font size. More text could be done with bitmap mode but it would be slow and very CPU intensive.
You brought up an interesting question, could you run wordstar on the Commander X16? Just curious
No, WordStart would not run. But you could definitely make a clone/port of it for X16 since it has more than enough power and storage.
I must congratulate David and associates for all their hard work in producing this capable 'modern' retro computer. I sincerely hope they are rewarded by a lot of sales and an ongoing active community for all their efforts.
While regrettably this system won't fit any use case I have, I might grab a VERA to play with if sold separately - it seems similar in concept to the Ti9918a through YM9958 which are favourites of mine in DIY projects.
I'm interested in the VERA module since that would be really cool to get interfaced to other 8 bit systems. But the rest of it, like you, I just don't have a use for it.
I trust Adrian here, it would be cool to program in 6502 and have new old games
That's what C64 Studio is for.
Exactly!
The intro to this video, with shots of the board and music and not a single spoken word, immediately and quietly followed by the intro, was interesting. I'm so used to hearing your voice speak before the intro!
The SD cards of 2023 is insanely high capacity compared to what was available back then. How big SD card, will work with its SD card reader (end the software)?
Adrian where can I buy the t-shirt you are modeling today?
AH unfortunately, it was a viewer donation and I don't recall where to get them.
Oh no!
Do Adrian and David (8-Bit-Guy) know why so many home computer companies failed in the 80s? It's seems that the X16 project has also the goal to reproduce these failures and add some more on the top.
I mean Adrian and the 8-Bit-Guy produces excelent content and should know about the history and misstakes in home computer market, but they don't take them into account.
The primary goal of the home computers in the 80s was to sell *lots* of computers. I don't think that's a primary goal, here. I think the goal here is to make some boards and have a small ecosystem of nostalgia fans and go off to have their fun. Not sure what the problem everyone is having with it. The simple solution for the people who don't see the point, don't like the price, etc. is to don't buy one. No one is forcing them to do that. After settling the mind on not buying one, then the next step is to not let its existence torment you. Easy-peasy.
@@shanehebert396 One of the primary goal of the X16 was a 50US$ 8-Bit computer. They did everything to miss the 50US$ price target and make the opposite of a smart design. I'm not a backer of the project, but it's interesting to see how the messed it up.
@@deterdamel7380 Technically that isnt true. The $50 was for their FPGA solution (Gen 3?) which wont be here for a while.What everyone really wanted was the dev board and the console version which are coming. For most following this, price has never been the issue. It was availability.
@@deterdamel7380 They are on the way of repeating yet another CBM mistake - fragmenting the ecosystem due to varying features within an architecture.
I wouldn't mind hearing your view on what made those companies fail back in the 1980s. There are a few factors that I can think of: component price volatility (dynamic RAM, in particular), fairly rapid evolution of the technology making barely new products uncompetitive, aggressive pricing strategies to drive competitors out of the market, changing tastes and disillusionment with home computing, economic downturns, and more.
Only some of those factors are relevant now. You might argue that the X16 is not cheap enough, which is a fair point, but how does that correspond to the lessons of the 1980s? Companies like Commodore and Sinclair virtually bankrupted each other trying to shift machines at the low end of the market, worrying about undercutting, while companies like Apple floated along despite some pretty significant market failures, all thanks to much nicer margins, I suspect.
And another factor from the 1980s that is usually overlooked by the average home computing enthusiast was that those companies looked to higher-revenue products in the longer term because they knew they couldn't survive at the low end forever. Quite a few companies went bankrupt before they could execute that particular strategy.
Love the X16 8 bit dance party!
Oh man. I really want one!
While using an ATTiny for keyboard, mouse and general system design is the most cost effective way of implementation, I would have loved this being a W65C134S (6502 based microcontroller)
If a version of the W65C134S with flash RAM program storage was available, it might have been a serious option, even if the ATTiny would likely be cheaper due to scale economies. At least the ATTiny is an 8bit MCU, similar to the ones used to upgrade from IBM-XT to the IBM-AT keyboards that were the direct predecessors of the PS/2 keyboards.
@@brucemcfarling6594 to me it looks like the WDC MCU has both ROM (4k) and RAM (192) on chip
@@petermuller608 Yes. If that were Flash RAM rather than a masked ROM (READ-ONLY Memory), so that new firmware could be loaded onto it, it would be a serious candidate.
@@brucemcfarling6594 oh is that really ROM as in One Time Programmable? Didn't realize, just assumed ROM as in Flash
@@petermuller608 Yes, it's ROM ... not PROM, not EPROM, not Flash "ROM". "This MCU has an embedded debug monitor ROM with a library of routines that can help you reduce development time."
That flexible RAM/ROM mapping is very nice. The C64 would have been almost this great if they designed in a way that the cartridge port had the signals for mapping writable RAM into those 8/16K partitions (and the IO for sending mapping commands to the cartridge).
The C64 _does_ have those signals.
• `R/W̅` is on pin 5 of the cartridge slot, which solves your "writable RAM" problem. _Anything_ in the cart can tell if the computer's trying to read or write it, and respond appropriately.
• There are two specific address ranges, $DE00 and $DF00, with their own decode pins on the cartridge port, `I̅O̅1` and `I̅O̅2`. So that makes it dead easy to have something interpreting commands there. But that's just for ease of use and as a convention; the cartridge port sees _all_ writes the CPU does (except for addresses $00 and $01), so you can pretty much use any address you like to receive commands.
• There are various modes for what the cart can take over (i.e., be guaranteed that internal devices will avoid responding to), but the broadest one is by asserting the `G̅A̅M̅E̅ ` line which maps 4K of C64 internal RAM to the bottom 4K of memory, and leaves _everything_ else to the cart.
I did not know that (or I knew it wrong!). So I can put a large SRAM on a cartridge and with some decoding logic I can choose which chunk I want to see in the 64k somewhere? Then why do we need the DMA-style ram expansion if we can just swap 8k pages in "zero" time?
@@Flashy7 I see two fairly large benefits to the REU way of doing things:
1. You can transfer arbitrary-sized units of memory from 1 to 64 KB, rather than being stuck with fixed page boundaries. So if you wanted to, say, transfer just one frame buffer worth of data (as is done by the "Globe" demo), you don't need to swap out a bunch of other data.
This is particularly important when working near small areas of important stuff. For example, if your page size is 8 KB and you want to use different memory anywhere under address $2000, a bank switching system would also be switching out your zero page and stack which is almost invariably not what you'd want.
2. The REU leaves all existing address mapping working as it did before, so programs that depend on it need minimal modification, and programs unaware of it have a minimal chance of being broken by it, even if other things in memory (e.g. a TSR program) are simultaneously using it.
Yes. It is truly amazing. Also note that the CX16 has TWO banking areas for RAM. Between A000 and BFFF and between C000 and FFFF. When the memory expansion card is installed it can be loaded with extra RAM chips in the C000 and FFFF address space!!!!
@@svenvandevelde1 You can do roughly same on the C64, which has independent mappings for the following:
• $E000-$FFFF: internal RAM, KERNAL ROM or cartridge (ROMH line)
• $D000-$DFFF: internal RAM, CHAROM, or I/O+colour RAM
• $C000-$CFFF: internal RAM or cartridge (requires decoding on cartridge)
• $A000-$BFFF: internal RAM, BASIC ROM or cartridge (ROMH ine)
• $8000-$AFFF: internal RAM or cartridge (ROML line)
• $1000-$7FFF: internal RAM or cartridge (requires decoding on cartridge)
And of course the C128 has even more powerful mappings.
I'm slightly confused by the sentence that because it runs natively at 60hz it can't support pal. Now, I know that from the history of the pal standard that pal50 was how TV were standardised and it still is today. But Pal TVs have had a 60hz mode since the mid-90s, but genuinely most didn't see them till the late 90s/early 00s. So what I am wondering is if this means it wouldn't support pal60 either.
As the color space NTSC uses will still cause those TVs to display the image in black and white.(And depending on the tv in question smooshed at one of three locations on the screen.) So is just the hz that is the problem here or is it the color space as well.
That intro music is the jam...
That's kinda weird to use the Commander X16's PSG on the ported version of the NES Marble Madness [originally done by Tengen, aka the Atari Games Corp] on the Commander X16 when the original arcade version of [Atari Games Corp's] Marble Madness used a YM2151 for its audio. The same sound chip inside the Commander X16. Seems like it would've been better just to lift the arcade YM2151 audio code and patch the ported NES version to use that very same audio chip.
Agreed. I gottsa fig the porter just wasnt aware.
I think the audio capture was a little off, but something similar to that exact thing was done. It's a little memory expensive because it is playing back processed vgmrips which aren't exactly compact.
Can't wait until David comes out with the emulator!!
github.com/X16Community/x16-emulator/releases/tag/r43
Awesome! Thanks Adrian!
14:19 one thing that i much like in these slot's design is GND separation between power lines and buses lines. yeah Apple, i am looking at you and your famous LCD connector :3
Hardware limits are what gave those old retro computers their unique "personalities". The varied ways that different manufacturers used to make the best of limited RAM, clock speed and functionality made each system a treasure trove for programmers to explore and take advantage of, unlike modern systems that all have the same capabilities and therefore all seem the same with no individual personalities.
I look forward to a future version of the Commander X16 that heavily utilizes FPGA to vastly simplify and cost-reduce the overall design (and future-proof the motherboard because it would not rely on being able to source parts that are not made anymore). It would also mean that tweaks could be made to the functionality of the system.
Sadly the cost of this blew up considerably and if the cost cutting continues, it will become a small board similar to raspberry pi or other mini computers, with little similarities to an old commodore with real chips.
I think it will look more like the A1200 with THT components largely replaced with SMT, but following the same design philosophy.
Yeah, but what do you really want out of the board? Do you want a functioning computer or a retro art piece? If it's inside a case (which it should be) this really doesn't matter. I guess if it's something you want to be able to mod electronically it would impinge on your pleasure, but I don't know if that covers the majority use case.
Thats pretty much exactly what I was thinking
@@Felice_Enellen Due to the use of TTL-logic there is no way to make proper modification the beautiful way. The ban of FPGA (or similar) in the CPU-board-design is a huge mistake. The project is more likely a holy religion driven paradigm.
@@deterdamel7380 Honestly I see hardware like this as a way to preserve methods before they're lost to neuron- and bit-rot. If you want to learn to write 6502 (or, better, 65816) there are plenty of emulators that give you all kinds of debug hooks and tracing without having to do some kind of serial debugging. I think it serves a purpose but I don't think it actually serves one for the average retro-interested programmer, more the retro-electronics-whizzes out there.
It had some growing pains but the X16 really came together into one tight clean design, it was interesting how many fields of knowledge it took to get right as in all your work to fix the problems with the board.🙂
I adore the Vera module, such a great compromise for a lack of ideal vintage VDPs available, various AV outputs, as well as doing screen modes I wish vintage computers could do. 23:48 Thank you for being disappointed, I can't believe they left out 240p originally since that's nuts for such a platform.😉
The 480i maximum makes a lot of sense for an 8-bit computer as the era was spread between SDTV and PC monitor use and both share that common denominator of 480 scanlines. Shame about PAL but it's an awfully unique set of variables compared to NTSC in relation to modern screen specs.
The color output is pretty sweet, very comparable to MSX2, SMS, CPC, and as you say nearly on par with a first generation Amiga. Same with the sound capability, very robust but also quite appropriate for the limits of an 8-bit computer, reminds me of the MSX a lot in sound expansion.
If you keep the kynar wires out of the holes and below the lead knees, route them in the most direct possible x/y arrangement avoiding component footprints and leads, and stake them at corners and regular intervals, you can call them "jumper wires" instead of "bodges"; even if you're doing production assembly work. :D
Does the VERA chip support smooth scrolling?
I really admire your lending your prestige to this project. Well done.
Might not be such a smart move considering the problems that the project has.
He probably got a free board.
As someone who has been eagerly following news about the Commander X16, a retro-inspired computer, I have witnessed the great interest it has generated among retro computing enthusiasts. However, recent cost discussions on the 8-Bit Guy's channel have given me pause, making me realize that owning one might be beyond my reach. This realization has led me to reflect on the niche market for the X16. While it offers authenticity, learning opportunities, and a vibrant community, its price point may restrict ownership to a passionate subset of retro computing enthusiasts. Considering alternatives like emulation on existing hardware might be a more accessible and cost-effective way to experience 8-bit computing.
A lot has changed since that video. The have an assembly house in DFW area. The first batch has been assembled. Just population of DIP and testing. Cost of the 2nd run should be $350 including board, PS, mouse and keyboard. David mentions down in the comments.
@@njspencer79 I'll believe it when I see the receipts. That also doesn't address that fact that $60,000 of the startup costs were "donations", not crowdfunding, not pre-orders, literal monetary gifts. This is a for-profit business, and that money was used to buy fabrication and assembly equipment for Tex-elec, not getting boards built, so that is utterly unethical and I'm not even sure if it is legal. So regardless of the performance or design or even the horrendous cost, this project is so tainted by the absolute disregard for anyone but the X16 cabal that I wouldn't buy it even if I never had to buy another piece of retro hardware again. If he refunds all of those donations... Well, *I* still wouldn't buy it, but at least he wouldn't be a freaking crook.
@@doc_sav I have seen videos of them coming off the line. Are you arguing that is fake? Why would this video address any of that? it is a technical review nothing more. As for accusing 8bg of being a crook. Wow. Do you think it is wise to post such statements online? Let me guess we should all get an AgonLight right?
@@njspencer79 I have not doubt they are being made. I doubt the price point until units go on sale. I have not made any statement that doesn't come from 8bitguy's own videos, so I have absolutely no compunctions about being critical about them here or in any other format. As to the AgonLight, I already said specifically I am not even talking about the design or performance of the device itself here, just the business practices, so it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
@@doc_sav But in any event, the Dev Board will never be as cheap as the same system using SMB versions of most of the chips and integrating the Vera circuit onto the motherboard. The X16 console targeting the $150-$200 price point seems like the one you should be looking at.
Looks nice and fun.
In one part of the video it is mentioned that one of the limiting factors of the 8-MHz CPU is because the Yamaha chip operates unreliably above that frequency. But then later in the video it mentions the ability to use an expansion board with circuitry to use a slower-running SID chip. So why not do something similar with the Yamaha chip if it's the bottleneck that is preventing a higher CPU clock speed? Assuming a clock divider would solve the issue?
The 65C02 combined with the PSG synth and the extremely powerful graphics of the VERA reminds me a lot of the PC Engine/Turbografx 16
Yeap, this seems like a SuperGrafx on extreme steroids. I just discovered this Commander X16 project today and I'm very, very excited.
There is no PSG present on the X16
@@tangentspace There is a PSG on the VERA