Would the Alliance in the present form even exist? Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code Doronsmovies for an extra 4 months free at surfshark.com/doronsmovies
I bet in an alternate version with Arthas as King, he would also wield the title and weapon "Ashbringer", which still would've been created since Magni still would've griefed over Muradin
Early on in Human campaign in wc3, we get a cutscene where medivh tells arthas to lead his people to kalimdor... I think even if he becomes the king of Lordaeron, Archimonde would still get summoned and destroy lordaeron and dalaran and then jaina, together with arthas (or maybe not, maybe arthas stays in lordaeron and dies, protecting his people) would travel to kalimdor, with events unfolding closely to wc3, as as it did originally.
i think medivh has foreseen that arthas will turn evil , so he told arthas to travel west , so if he did not turn evil i think they might have had a chance
I had a whole idea for a Reforged Campaign about such an event. The original idea came from me feeling that the Undead Campaign was not enough of a struggle. Most of what the Scourge did happened before Arthas was leading them. And by map 2 you kill Uther and the Silver Hand, by map 3 you invade Quel'Thalas. So I wanted to make an Undead Campaign where you have to work for every city the Plague spreads. And the idea came to mind: Intro: The Lich King miscalculated. Arthas takes up Frostmourne, but as Muradin falls, Arthas uses Holy Light to save him. This pure act cleanses Frostmourne. Arthas and Muradin kill Mal'Ganis, but then track the LK's voice to Icecrown. They fight Tychondrius and the other 2 dreadlords in charge, and kill the LK. The human expedition goes back victorious, and Arthas spends much time in creating measures around his kingdom that would prevent any such plague. Campaign: Varimathras, Balnazzar and Detheroc are sent to Lordaeron after about a decade to "finish what they started". You play the 3 dreadlords 1 at a time as they try to create a new Scourge against a much stronger Lordaeron. Detheroc poses as an orc (yes, since Arthas didn't doom Lordaeron Thrall and the orcs stayed) and causes unrest among the now peaceful orcs of Arathi. Eventually turns Grom against Thrall and raises many undead orcs from their civil war to march on Aerie Peak and Muradin. Varimathras tricks the Amani into raising their dead from the tombs and march them on Silvermoon. And Balnazzar cobbles together the Cult of the Damned and smuggles Plague into guarded villages. Slowly rekindling the Scourge and destroying Dalaran from within. Eventually all three, with their respective armies and various undead heroes (or demi heroes), converge on the capital against King Arthas and Queen Jaina.
This reminds me of the Warcraft 3 costume campaign where Alexstrasza saved and showed Arthas's future and took a different path to save his people. If Arthas never became the lich king he would probably the strongest Paladin and light wielder in the alliance and maybe even made Anduin as his disciple of the light.
That campaign was sick especially in the end Buffed Up Broxigar with Blessed axe that wounded even Sargeras, Demigod Cenarius and King Arthas with ashbringer which is definitely stronger than his lichking counterpart vs Archimonde
I hope that partially we will see "how Eastern kingdoms would look like without Scourge invasion" during Midnight and some old zones and cities revamp, expanding Silvermoon, restoring the scourge scar, etc.
Thrall and the orc clans would never be told to sail to Kalimador by Medivh, their rebellion would fail and they would probably be rounded up and exterminated to prevent another uprising. This event would cause the Tauren to be wiped out by the Centaur. The Darkspears would be wiped out by the Proudmoore fleet and Murlocs without Thralls intervention and as stated, the forsaken don’t exist. RIP horde. The alliance with no big rallying cause would fracture. I’d bet the cause would be who should control Alterac, because that was never resolved after Deathwings plan to claim it failed. So the Arathis and Lorderon would be at each others throats. Dalaran’s priority I would assume would be uncovering the secrets of Kharazan now that no one lived there because they ALWAYS wanted to and never could when Medivh was there. The elves of Quel Thalas would again return to their woods to become isolationists to the outside world. StormWind would continue building their relationship with IronForge and Gnomer to eventually surpass Lorderon as the largest super power, but the two would remain close Allie’s due to Varian and Arthas’s relationship. The Dranai would for sure land in kalimador for sure and would have run ins with the night elves, but there’s WAY to much speculation for what would happen there. I think the Dranai would probably cloak their cities like they had done on Draenor and just live like they did there and the Elves would probably leave them alone for the most part as long as they stayed out of Ashenvale and Hyjal. The Night elves would remain immortal, Malfurion would be snoozing, Illidan would never be released by Tyrande. Eventually the Cataclysm would happen, the Horde wouldn’t be there to help defend Azeroth, end times happen, void claims Azeroth. The process may even have been sped up since the horde canonically cleared BWL, so Nefarion would have been able to strike out against Stormwind.
AMENDMENT: Dalaran would eventually lose access to magic after Malygos redirects all of Azeroth magics to the Nexus and either drop out of relevance or be wiped out by the remaining blue dragon flight trying to stop Malygos. They may still fly Dalaran out to Northrend to battle the dragons, which would open up a chance for our boy Ner’Zhul to come back into play. Regardless Dalaran is Devastated worse than they were in WC3.
I still think Deathwing would trigger the Cataclysm in this scenario, the horde would benefit from Garrosh still living in Outland, Pandaria would probably be found but without the faction war no Sha nonsense, all that remains to be asked would Garrosh in this case have the Backbone to betray his Time Traveling buddy or not for the next part, one other long term benefit is after the Cata, the Alliance and Horde would be at peace and it would be harder for old grudges to decide them
They explored this possibility in a questline involving time travel. The orcs would conquer all of Kalimdor and burn it to the ground, then they would wage war on the alliance.
We need another storyline where Arthas listened to the last Guardian and led his people to Kalimdor before going back to Lordaeron after Archimonde was defeated.
So a few things, Stormwind would still grow stronger, Orcs, Gnolls and all that Jazz would still make them feel like they need to push for strenght. Without someone to get Frostmourn back LK would die as he almost did in the Arthas/Illidan race. Without going to Northrend Ulduar wouldnt be 'cleared' from old goods, so nuke in waiting there. Cata would still be a thing as pointed out, but dragons would aid there so chance they still get out of that one. The legion invasion might happend in Ulduar to stop old gods as thats why the legion became a thing anyways. Kul Tiras would be a alliance ally since Jaina/Thrall never did her daddy dead in this timeline our first real Ally horde might end up being Zandalari Trolls seeking aid vs Kul Tiras from darkspears and from there the horde. And from there the timeline would go rather back to default except that we wouldnt have WOD, may or may not have Pandaria. Northrend would be a Outland/Legion/WoTLK mashup.
You are very wrong about the Scourge being a bluff ... they already almost killed Arthas if it wasn't for the backup from Uther. Stratholme was lost in day due to the grain shipment, Arthas had to make a pick "do I purge the town or do I allow more Undead to roam towards Lordaeron". Uther was the happy go lucky fellow who just believed it would turn out for the better (like a "typical old man") and Jaina could not bear the sight (like a "typical girl"). So the 3 most important points before he goes full evil are: 1. The purge of Stratholme 2. The betrayal of the Mercenaries 3. The betrayal of his kingdom and his father If he became good at point 1. Many more places would be overrun by the Undead, the humans and others will restrict themselves to the main cities. The High Elves would do that as well. Kael would stay good, Kel'Thuzad would stay dead, maybe even human as he wouldn't be sacrificed if Ner'Zhul wasn't sure that Arthas would join him. Maybe Ner'Zhul would corrupt Daelin Proudmoore or someone similar instead like Grom Hellscream. Imagine Grom enjoying himself while killing Kel'Thuzad and few moment's later he is carying his ashes into the Sunwell and getting one of the best bros to stay by his side. Imagine Grom reviving Sylvanas and using Silvermoon as the capital of the Scourge in Eastern Kingdoms. Now if Arthas became good at point 2. he wouldn't have killed Mal'Ganis, he would probably have a small punishment for his disobedience of the king's edict, but may grow even stronger from that crysis. Uther will say something like "A king has to know how to turn a defeat ... no, a tragedy ... into victory.". There will be a bit of drama with Jaina because she "left him". And Ner'Zhul would be looking for a new champion, would be funny if he would trick Mal'Ganis into being his champion just so he would die a needless death and entrap another to become a new champion. This case along with point 1. would also mean that the Undead in Northrend would take a much stronger stronghold by erasing the remaining humans/dwarves etc. And finally if he becomes good at the final point 3., he would be very hard and unforgiving upon himself because his vengence didn't bring anyone back, it just made him take the lives of other good characters like the mercenaries. Maybe he would have been the Varian of Lordaeron that way. Hopefully his future son or daughter woouldn't have been a weird hybrid between a priest and a warrior and a paladin. This case would have probably been most damaging to the Scourge as Arthas would somehow resist Frostmourne. Maybe the trigger for him becoming good would have been if Jaina was there, so by seeing her, all the curse from Frostmourne would fade and he would regain his light. She would probably sense the curse of the sword as well and perhaps disenchant it away, releasing all the trapped souls.
@TheUnkow Your point on Stratholme is not reflected by current canon lore or the word of Dave Fried. Exploring Azeroth says that everyone slain at Stratholme quickly enough rose from the dead with Chronicle 3 saying that the Scourge was not even slowed down and they went into hiding to make Lordaeron drop their guard. Fried said that Arthas did nothing at all to dispose of bodies and only those who were raised by necromancy turn into Undead with Ghouls/Zombies/Etc. not turning anyone by wounds, Ner'zhul could raised the plagued himself whenever he bothered to.
@@galten7361 I agree with you, BUT also. The lore after Warcraft 3 is the reason the Lich King story started falling down as we went into WoW. People loved the original and so the writers had a huge chance to build up upon that. They wanted to make Arthas more evil like Illidan became in TBC, so they did a whole lot of retcons and inconsistencies for that purpose. I took these comments from WoWpedia about the "Chronicle". "The book says that Arthas and Ner'zhul fought because Arthas would not share the Lich King's powers." -> they both joined forces to oust the Legion, Nerz'hul handpicked Arthas, he knew what kind of person he brings into the team, the internal struggle doesn't make almost any sense "Arthas simply killed Ner'zhul" -> like the legendary orc shaman would just simply disapear, his soul never to be found because it was cool for the new WoW lore, while Arthas' soul could later be used by the Jailor ... why not Nerz'hul as well in that case? "Some events were left out like The Blackrock clan in Lordaeron and Arthas' involvement with them." -> removing this is like Arthas had no reason to go fanatical against the evil factions (the evil orc clans, the scourge, the legion etc.) while they were murdering his fellow civilians, not to mention "his royal subjects", I don't like the phase, but royals may see it like that. Really feels like the writer was trying to erase the few points that made Arthas the good hero turned villain for the purposes of branding him a mindless villain. Does it even say that Arthas and Jaina killed Kel'Thuzad at all?
@TheUnkow I won't deny there were retcons in Chronicles. A lot of which were already established In WotLK like Anub'arak not being a knowing traitor and Ner'zhul being deposed by Arthas. And yes, the Chronicle 3 version of RoC does mention Arthas slaying Kel'thuzad. And Dave Fried's word was for WC3 and WOW up to TBC (when he worked on the games with the rest of the team). He talked in his podcasts and live streams and his Twitter and Discord about Stratholme. He confirmed the idea back in WC3 was that Arthas was just being baited into killing off his subjects to test if he was worthy as a general/new body and the Scourge was never in any actual fanger form Arthas and that the Scourge could only make new Undead by actively using necromancy (even if you got the plague and died from it the Scourge would still need a Necromancer or Ner'zhul or demon to raise your coprse) with Ghouls/Zombies not being able to turn anyone into Undead. Stratholme would just be Arthas helping the Scourge.
@@galten7361 A small note, the plague was actively converting the residents into zombies as it was corrupted by Kel'Thuzad, but yes, everyone that died by Arthas could and would later be used by the Scourge. Arthas was baited and he knew that, he took the bait while Uther tried to convice him otherwise, he just delayed the Stratholme chaos a bit (hours or days). BUT he did get a "payoff" which was to "kill" Mal'Ganis as he believed that was the greater goal worth achieving. Somewhere between being abandoned by Uther/Jaina and killing his father (many events here), he became fully evil. Maybe he realized that no one is going to forgive him for what he did, and he already forsake the light in his quest for revenge, maybe he saw nothing of value to return as he was, so he went to the other side, to at least "regain" a portion of what he lost, to give them eternal life, to at least not let them be ruled by some foreign unknown entity ... the reasoning gets "sicker" with each iteration, but that's what makes a great "good" turned "bad" character. I don't think anyone minds that he became evil and that we needed to defeat him etc ... but when they try making his story/past feel cheap (even in the current timeline), like it was only "he became evil, he should be defeated/hated/forgotten", that's what doesn't slide with many fans.
@TheUnkow They didn't have to do anything about Stratholme then. They at most only had to escort any able citizens out of the city and leave it to its fate. They do not know how the plague works and do not know who spreads it. Seeing the demon should have been enough for Arthas to call a retreat.
if Arthas didnt turn, then maybe the Dreadlords would've resorted to taking action themselves in retrieving the book of Medivh, and if re-raising kelthuzard was an issue, there was always the option of enslaving another mage in undeath to serve as the summoner. which very well couldve lead to the worst timeline with none of the humans escaping to Kalimdor, Grom causing the orcs to be damned under Manaroth's demonic influence, and the night elves standing and falling alone before Archimonde's invasion, after the death of Cenarius, leading to the vision Medivh showed Thrall in the RoC intro
It’s possible I guess, but I don’t think without lorderon falling and arthas help sacking Dalaran the dreadlords would’ve have done it themselves from the get go if they had a choice.
@feralast7027 Dave Fried (a Blizzard dev who worked on WC3 to early WoW and especially played a major role in developing levels like The Culling) says that if Arthas didn't betray his kingdom the Dreadlords would have used backup plans to make the EK fall apart.
Man so many things would change, 1. Arthas would not destroy His father’s kingdom and would lead the humans of lorderon. All the paladins of the silver hand would stand up to the undead. This includes Mograine with Ashbringer. 2. Sylvannas would not have died and raised as a banshee most likely would combine together with the humans to fight the undead and Legion. 3. High Elf’s wouldn’t become blood elves 4. Dalaran probably wouldn’t have been destroyed.
Arthas would essentially just take over the role of Varian and became the high king of the alliance. Lordaeron would be the alliance capitol instead of stormwind since stormwind is still rebuilding. Onyxia will want to pull her tricks on Arthas instead of Varian since Arthas is a more important figure in the world.
What would happen? Well, looking at AU Drarnor, Orcs don't invade Azeroth, which means the Legion doesn't send Ner'Zhul to Northrend to start the Scourge. No Scourge, no combined Alliance and Horde. Therefore, no Might of Kalimdor. AU Azeroth would have been taken over during Vanilla
I always couldnt decide between who has bigger power, Alliance of Lordaeron (as in this scenario - gilneas, kirintor,lordaeron,kultiras,stormwind,alterac+gnomes and high elves) or The Alliance as it happened after fall of lordaeron - night elves draeneis gnomes with stormwind as leader and not lordaeron,
Arthas and Jaina would be momy and dady. Humans would be insanely powerful civilisation more than Stromwind alone. It would be Stormwind Lorderon Dalaran and Kultiras.
so, two super power "countries / faction" with a continent of their own. Not encountering each other and no conflict? I highly doubt that. I think at one point or another either the horde goblins, or someone on the alliance's merchants or exploration guild would cross over and encounter exotic resource and eventually spread a mantra of "we must get that / whoever controls the resource controls azeroth thing" and there would be conflict
Here comes another question: What if....Arthas never follow Mal Ganis bait, and the Burning Legion invaded Loderon is an absolute event, who would Ner'Zhul choose to replace Arthas?
Imagine King Arthas with Ashbringer as weapon he would be Strongest Azeroth hero leading everyone to victory, with him in the lead there may never be Garosh incident, nor the massive return of undead, he would pose big problem for legion with his power of light and ashbringer, he would marry Jaina have child-ren I think he would make Aliance and Horde Bond stronger so that he would prevent wars In short I believe with him alive he would be most powerfull Azzeroth ally and much less would die in all expansions
@@WeaselDancingTime I think you overestimate the legion lol. Because the only reason why they came during legion was because of guldan which was a prisoner we set free in WOD of a different timeline. For he was dead already in our own current timeline. And in war of the ancients they used a power hungry queen to summon them. My point being that they rely heavily on outside sources. Their cards were all in the fact that the undead/ arthas would completely cripple the defenses of Azeroth. Such as Dalaran, lorderon, quel Thalas. But if that doesn’t happen 1. I doubt they even get summoned and 2. I doubt they’d be able to destroy the forces of Azeroth. That doesn’t include the new horde under thrall or the nightelves probably banning with them to fight the legion.
I'm thinking of them more from the WC3 power scaling rather than any gameplay contrivances from the MMO. Nothing I saw in WoW would convince me that Lordaeron could have survived a galactic force of demons with an infinite army once they tricked or convinced some poor mortal to open the door.
i think the main issue is that you make more of Arthas than there is. He was chosen because he was always very arrogant, in an important position and easy to corrupt. He was clearly a primary goal but definitely not the only possible such. If Arthas hadnt taken up Frostmourne, the LK could have killed Arthas and see his father King tereinas take up frostmourne to take revenge which arguably migth have even been better. Archmage Antonidas could have been subverted with the help of Kel Thuzad, as we see with cataclysm - Jaina wasnt beyond being corrupted either and thats just looking at the players we knew of at the time. For sure Varian would have loved to take up frostmourne to avenge his kingdom and go against the orcs for revenge for what they did to him. I dont see why Onyxia wouldnt have done the same. I can totally see some troll leaders like Sen'jin or Zul'jin take up frostmourne to protect their people and take revenge on the elves. Heck Greymane likely would have taken up frostmourne himself if he had the chance back in the day. I guess some orcs of the old horde would have worked fine just as well, and im not having any doubt that some high elves - like the ones who became the void elves or darthremar would have worked as well. So Arthas was the first choice but in retrospect, Ner'zuhl had PLENTY other candidates and also in retrospect he would have been much better off taking one of those to stay the dominant mind within the Lich King and without Arthas holding back the scourge - which he actually did btw - the scourge could have swept all over azeroth and conquer it completly - which was stated multiple times it totally could do. Now with all the more recent retcons thats questionable but back until including cataclysm, that was the lore
Very likely, but I don't think anyone could have had as big of an impact as Arthas as the prince brought down the entirety of Lordaeron and added a large part of it to the Scourge, subsequently also destroying Quel'Thalas with these powers.
@@A2ndVoice Jaina as Lich Queen's a popular alternate. Not sure about Genn since before the wall he was leaning isolationist. I'd have to hear more of how Kael'thas would've been corrupted because even in the better times, the elves tended to be standoffish.
@MSinistrari being isolationist in this case just gives the 2 of them time to build a secret army like Arthas did but closer. Genn behind his wall instead of in Northrend. Kaelthas tucked away in the north could even conquer and turn all of ZA with basically no one noticing. Both suspectible to corruption. Not the same exact pathway, obviously, but easily swayable.
as a human paladin main i still to this day wish arthas was around and a good guy i thought shadowlands somehow he might return like yesera but nope shame on you blizzard
I mean if we follow his scenario we still have to take what happens after into account so we can assume that world of Warcraft would have the high elves with the alliance still there wouldn't be any blood elves so the existence of draenor and the threat of the second burning legion invasion would probably end up being the draenei showing up and that might be when The horde in the alliance my interact as factions for the first time obviously we know why the alliance would want to go obviously stop the burning legion go to Outland that's a problem but also Outland would still be run by magtharidon so it wasn't exactly play out the same because all of our land would just simply be following the burning legion and then what you would have is a full-on invasion in the burning legion but you have a different type of alliance one that's under King Arthur's and he does hate orcs but he hasn't met thrall and there's a chance that it wouldn't be open or right away so both factions would have a reason to go to the Outland and also I think what that would end up being is we would probably get legion just sooneralso yeah there's another huge problem that shows up and that's what the f*** happens with varian we would still have all of the like onixia threats in world of Warcraft vanilla as well and also varian becomes the high King of the alliance at some point would there be contention or would varian simply just come back and follow King arthas especially after not getting any support when storm went got destroyed the first time does a lot of interesting things that would open up I would more than likely be down with that also one of the biggest thing that your scenario is ignoring would be that you say that the alliance wouldn't go to douratar but if arthas advantage to calm down and not lose it he would probably still listen to medivh because the legion is coming either way so if arthis is cool headed enough to listen to uther than medive will come to them both and then they will all meet in the cave and the biggest thing that I can think of is if they successfully fitted off the legion and follow through with malfurion's plan to begin with but with the full armies of lordaeron like I fully believe that he's right kultras will never happen so the admiral won't break the treaty and it's very well possible that the horde in the alliance will just not fight for quite a while except for conflicts that will come up during what would be the burning crusade except again it would be different as I mentioned
![[Sub Thai] APT. - ROSÉ & Bruno Mars](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYjhzP8x_uc/mqdefault.jpg)
Would the Alliance in the present form even exist? Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code Doronsmovies for an
extra 4 months free at surfshark.com/doronsmovies
If Arthas never turned evil, by now he'd be gay...
Even Anduin didn't get to survive Leftist politics of "White Man Bad"
If Arthas never turned evil we would have missed the greatest cinematic ever
Would be a fun idea to travel to alternate Azeroth where Arthas is king, sort of like how WoD except it's not on Draenor but Azeroth.
I bet in an alternate version with Arthas as King, he would also wield the title and weapon "Ashbringer", which still would've been created since Magni still would've griefed over Muradin
Early on in Human campaign in wc3, we get a cutscene where medivh tells arthas to lead his people to kalimdor... I think even if he becomes the king of Lordaeron, Archimonde would still get summoned and destroy lordaeron and dalaran and then jaina, together with arthas (or maybe not, maybe arthas stays in lordaeron and dies, protecting his people) would travel to kalimdor, with events unfolding closely to wc3, as as it did originally.
i think medivh has foreseen that arthas will turn evil , so he told arthas to travel west , so if he did not turn evil i think they might have had a chance
I had a whole idea for a Reforged Campaign about such an event.
The original idea came from me feeling that the Undead Campaign was not enough of a struggle. Most of what the Scourge did happened before Arthas was leading them. And by map 2 you kill Uther and the Silver Hand, by map 3 you invade Quel'Thalas. So I wanted to make an Undead Campaign where you have to work for every city the Plague spreads. And the idea came to mind:
Intro: The Lich King miscalculated. Arthas takes up Frostmourne, but as Muradin falls, Arthas uses Holy Light to save him. This pure act cleanses Frostmourne. Arthas and Muradin kill Mal'Ganis, but then track the LK's voice to Icecrown. They fight Tychondrius and the other 2 dreadlords in charge, and kill the LK. The human expedition goes back victorious, and Arthas spends much time in creating measures around his kingdom that would prevent any such plague.
Campaign: Varimathras, Balnazzar and Detheroc are sent to Lordaeron after about a decade to "finish what they started". You play the 3 dreadlords 1 at a time as they try to create a new Scourge against a much stronger Lordaeron. Detheroc poses as an orc (yes, since Arthas didn't doom Lordaeron Thrall and the orcs stayed) and causes unrest among the now peaceful orcs of Arathi. Eventually turns Grom against Thrall and raises many undead orcs from their civil war to march on Aerie Peak and Muradin. Varimathras tricks the Amani into raising their dead from the tombs and march them on Silvermoon. And Balnazzar cobbles together the Cult of the Damned and smuggles Plague into guarded villages. Slowly rekindling the Scourge and destroying Dalaran from within. Eventually all three, with their respective armies and various undead heroes (or demi heroes), converge on the capital against King Arthas and Queen Jaina.
that must better than the original campaign man , i really hope they make a custom campaign about this
This reminds me of the Warcraft 3 costume campaign where Alexstrasza saved and showed Arthas's future and took a different path to save his people. If Arthas never became the lich king he would probably the strongest Paladin and light wielder in the alliance and maybe even made Anduin as his disciple of the light.
That campaign was sick especially in the end Buffed Up Broxigar with Blessed axe that wounded even Sargeras, Demigod Cenarius and King Arthas with ashbringer which is definitely stronger than his lichking counterpart vs Archimonde
I hope that partially we will see "how Eastern kingdoms would look like without Scourge invasion" during Midnight and some old zones and cities revamp, expanding Silvermoon, restoring the scourge scar, etc.
Thrall and the orc clans would never be told to sail to Kalimador by Medivh, their rebellion would fail and they would probably be rounded up and exterminated to prevent another uprising. This event would cause the Tauren to be wiped out by the Centaur. The Darkspears would be wiped out by the Proudmoore fleet and Murlocs without Thralls intervention and as stated, the forsaken don’t exist. RIP horde. The alliance with no big rallying cause would fracture. I’d bet the cause would be who should control Alterac, because that was never resolved after Deathwings plan to claim it failed. So the Arathis and Lorderon would be at each others throats. Dalaran’s priority I would assume would be uncovering the secrets of Kharazan now that no one lived there because they ALWAYS wanted to and never could when Medivh was there. The elves of Quel Thalas would again return to their woods to become isolationists to the outside world. StormWind would continue building their relationship with IronForge and Gnomer to eventually surpass Lorderon as the largest super power, but the two would remain close Allie’s due to Varian and Arthas’s relationship. The Dranai would for sure land in kalimador for sure and would have run ins with the night elves, but there’s WAY to much speculation for what would happen there. I think the Dranai would probably cloak their cities like they had done on Draenor and just live like they did there and the Elves would probably leave them alone for the most part as long as they stayed out of Ashenvale and Hyjal. The Night elves would remain immortal, Malfurion would be snoozing, Illidan would never be released by Tyrande. Eventually the Cataclysm would happen, the Horde wouldn’t be there to help defend Azeroth, end times happen, void claims Azeroth. The process may even have been sped up since the horde canonically cleared BWL, so Nefarion would have been able to strike out against Stormwind.
AMENDMENT: Dalaran would eventually lose access to magic after Malygos redirects all of Azeroth magics to the Nexus and either drop out of relevance or be wiped out by the remaining blue dragon flight trying to stop Malygos. They may still fly Dalaran out to Northrend to battle the dragons, which would open up a chance for our boy Ner’Zhul to come back into play. Regardless Dalaran is Devastated worse than they were in WC3.
I still think Deathwing would trigger the Cataclysm in this scenario, the horde would benefit from Garrosh still living in Outland, Pandaria would probably be found but without the faction war no Sha nonsense, all that remains to be asked would Garrosh in this case have the Backbone to betray his Time Traveling buddy or not for the next part, one other long term benefit is after the Cata, the Alliance and Horde would be at peace and it would be harder for old grudges to decide them
They explored this possibility in a questline involving time travel. The orcs would conquer all of Kalimdor and burn it to the ground, then they would wage war on the alliance.
How would Arthas not succumbing to evil prevent Deathwing and the Cataclysm. We would still find Pandaria
I was coming here for this comment
We need another storyline where Arthas listened to the last Guardian and led his people to Kalimdor before going back to Lordaeron after Archimonde was defeated.
There is a custom Warcraft 3 campaign in the hive workshop that shows if arthas never turned evil has I think 3 campaigns it’s really fun.
So a few things, Stormwind would still grow stronger, Orcs, Gnolls and all that Jazz would still make them feel like they need to push for strenght.
Without someone to get Frostmourn back LK would die as he almost did in the Arthas/Illidan race.
Without going to Northrend Ulduar wouldnt be 'cleared' from old goods, so nuke in waiting there.
Cata would still be a thing as pointed out, but dragons would aid there so chance they still get out of that one.
The legion invasion might happend in Ulduar to stop old gods as thats why the legion became a thing anyways.
Kul Tiras would be a alliance ally since Jaina/Thrall never did her daddy dead in this timeline our first real Ally horde might end up being Zandalari Trolls seeking aid vs Kul Tiras from darkspears and from there the horde.
And from there the timeline would go rather back to default except that we wouldnt have WOD, may or may not have Pandaria. Northrend would be a Outland/Legion/WoTLK mashup.
If Arthas never turned evil and became king of Lordaeron, I guess that means Kael’Thalas never turned evil and became king of Quel’thalas
Blizzard could have given the players a What if Option
🩶
Who could have been the Lich King instead of Arthas: Titus Rivendare or Renault Mograine?
or kael'thas because of his jealousy over arthas when he loves jaina.
You are very wrong about the Scourge being a bluff ... they already almost killed Arthas if it wasn't for the backup from Uther. Stratholme was lost in day due to the grain shipment, Arthas had to make a pick "do I purge the town or do I allow more Undead to roam towards Lordaeron".
Uther was the happy go lucky fellow who just believed it would turn out for the better (like a "typical old man") and Jaina could not bear the sight (like a "typical girl").
So the 3 most important points before he goes full evil are:
1. The purge of Stratholme
2. The betrayal of the Mercenaries
3. The betrayal of his kingdom and his father
If he became good at point 1. Many more places would be overrun by the Undead, the humans and others will restrict themselves to the main cities. The High Elves would do that as well. Kael would stay good, Kel'Thuzad would stay dead, maybe even human as he wouldn't be sacrificed if Ner'Zhul wasn't sure that Arthas would join him. Maybe Ner'Zhul would corrupt Daelin Proudmoore or someone similar instead like Grom Hellscream. Imagine Grom enjoying himself while killing Kel'Thuzad and few moment's later he is carying his ashes into the Sunwell and getting one of the best bros to stay by his side. Imagine Grom reviving Sylvanas and using Silvermoon as the capital of the Scourge in Eastern Kingdoms.
Now if Arthas became good at point 2. he wouldn't have killed Mal'Ganis, he would probably have a small punishment for his disobedience of the king's edict, but may grow even stronger from that crysis. Uther will say something like "A king has to know how to turn a defeat ... no, a tragedy ... into victory.". There will be a bit of drama with Jaina because she "left him". And Ner'Zhul would be looking for a new champion, would be funny if he would trick Mal'Ganis into being his champion just so he would die a needless death and entrap another to become a new champion. This case along with point 1. would also mean that the Undead in Northrend would take a much stronger stronghold by erasing the remaining humans/dwarves etc.
And finally if he becomes good at the final point 3., he would be very hard and unforgiving upon himself because his vengence didn't bring anyone back, it just made him take the lives of other good characters like the mercenaries. Maybe he would have been the Varian of Lordaeron that way. Hopefully his future son or daughter woouldn't have been a weird hybrid between a priest and a warrior and a paladin. This case would have probably been most damaging to the Scourge as Arthas would somehow resist Frostmourne. Maybe the trigger for him becoming good would have been if Jaina was there, so by seeing her, all the curse from Frostmourne would fade and he would regain his light. She would probably sense the curse of the sword as well and perhaps disenchant it away, releasing all the trapped souls.
@TheUnkow Your point on Stratholme is not reflected by current canon lore or the word of Dave Fried. Exploring Azeroth says that everyone slain at Stratholme quickly enough rose from the dead with Chronicle 3 saying that the Scourge was not even slowed down and they went into hiding to make Lordaeron drop their guard. Fried said that Arthas did nothing at all to dispose of bodies and only those who were raised by necromancy turn into Undead with Ghouls/Zombies/Etc. not turning anyone by wounds, Ner'zhul could raised the plagued himself whenever he bothered to.
@@galten7361 I agree with you, BUT also.
The lore after Warcraft 3 is the reason the Lich King story started falling down as we went into WoW. People loved the original and so the writers had a huge chance to build up upon that.
They wanted to make Arthas more evil like Illidan became in TBC, so they did a whole lot of retcons and inconsistencies for that purpose.
I took these comments from WoWpedia about the "Chronicle".
"The book says that Arthas and Ner'zhul fought because Arthas would not share the Lich King's powers." -> they both joined forces to oust the Legion, Nerz'hul handpicked Arthas, he knew what kind of person he brings into the team, the internal struggle doesn't make almost any sense
"Arthas simply killed Ner'zhul" -> like the legendary orc shaman would just simply disapear, his soul never to be found because it was cool for the new WoW lore, while Arthas' soul could later be used by the Jailor ... why not Nerz'hul as well in that case?
"Some events were left out like The Blackrock clan in Lordaeron and Arthas' involvement with them." -> removing this is like Arthas had no reason to go fanatical against the evil factions (the evil orc clans, the scourge, the legion etc.) while they were murdering his fellow civilians, not to mention "his royal subjects", I don't like the phase, but royals may see it like that.
Really feels like the writer was trying to erase the few points that made Arthas the good hero turned villain for the purposes of branding him a mindless villain.
Does it even say that Arthas and Jaina killed Kel'Thuzad at all?
@TheUnkow I won't deny there were retcons in Chronicles. A lot of which were already established In WotLK like Anub'arak not being a knowing traitor and Ner'zhul being deposed by Arthas. And yes, the Chronicle 3 version of RoC does mention Arthas slaying Kel'thuzad.
And Dave Fried's word was for WC3 and WOW up to TBC (when he worked on the games with the rest of the team). He talked in his podcasts and live streams and his Twitter and Discord about Stratholme. He confirmed the idea back in WC3 was that Arthas was just being baited into killing off his subjects to test if he was worthy as a general/new body and the Scourge was never in any actual fanger form Arthas and that the Scourge could only make new Undead by actively using necromancy (even if you got the plague and died from it the Scourge would still need a Necromancer or Ner'zhul or demon to raise your coprse) with Ghouls/Zombies not being able to turn anyone into Undead. Stratholme would just be Arthas helping the Scourge.
@@galten7361 A small note, the plague was actively converting the residents into zombies as it was corrupted by Kel'Thuzad, but yes, everyone that died by Arthas could and would later be used by the Scourge.
Arthas was baited and he knew that, he took the bait while Uther tried to convice him otherwise, he just delayed the Stratholme chaos a bit (hours or days). BUT he did get a "payoff" which was to "kill" Mal'Ganis as he believed that was the greater goal worth achieving.
Somewhere between being abandoned by Uther/Jaina and killing his father (many events here), he became fully evil. Maybe he realized that no one is going to forgive him for what he did, and he already forsake the light in his quest for revenge, maybe he saw nothing of value to return as he was, so he went to the other side, to at least "regain" a portion of what he lost, to give them eternal life, to at least not let them be ruled by some foreign unknown entity ... the reasoning gets "sicker" with each iteration, but that's what makes a great "good" turned "bad" character.
I don't think anyone minds that he became evil and that we needed to defeat him etc ... but when they try making his story/past feel cheap (even in the current timeline), like it was only "he became evil, he should be defeated/hated/forgotten", that's what doesn't slide with many fans.
@TheUnkow They didn't have to do anything about Stratholme then. They at most only had to escort any able citizens out of the city and leave it to its fate. They do not know how the plague works and do not know who spreads it. Seeing the demon should have been enough for Arthas to call a retreat.
if Arthas didnt turn, then maybe the Dreadlords would've resorted to taking action themselves in retrieving the book of Medivh, and if re-raising kelthuzard was an issue, there was always the option of enslaving another mage in undeath to serve as the summoner. which very well couldve lead to the worst timeline with none of the humans escaping to Kalimdor, Grom causing the orcs to be damned under Manaroth's demonic influence, and the night elves standing and falling alone before Archimonde's invasion, after the death of Cenarius, leading to the vision Medivh showed Thrall in the RoC intro
Yeah in that sort of scenario, Jaina seems the most likely candidate for faction leader turned baddie.
It’s possible I guess, but I don’t think without lorderon falling and arthas help sacking Dalaran the dreadlords would’ve have done it themselves from the get go if they had a choice.
@feralast7027 Dave Fried (a Blizzard dev who worked on WC3 to early WoW and especially played a major role in developing levels like The Culling) says that if Arthas didn't betray his kingdom the Dreadlords would have used backup plans to make the EK fall apart.
@@galten7361 interesting do you have reference or a link?
@feralast7027 It was on on Dave Fried's board. You can find links on his TH-cam account (DesignerDave).
Man so many things would change,
1. Arthas would not destroy His father’s kingdom and would lead the humans of lorderon. All the paladins of the silver hand would stand up to the undead. This includes Mograine with Ashbringer.
2. Sylvannas would not have died and raised as a banshee most likely would combine together with the humans to fight the undead and Legion.
3. High Elf’s wouldn’t become blood elves
4. Dalaran probably wouldn’t have been destroyed.
Arthas would essentially just take over the role of Varian and became the high king of the alliance. Lordaeron would be the alliance capitol instead of stormwind since stormwind is still rebuilding. Onyxia will want to pull her tricks on Arthas instead of Varian since Arthas is a more important figure in the world.
arthas turned evil because jaina and uther didnt help him to kill malganis.
they betrayed everyone
He was always evil, people just hadn't noticed.
@@Altrantishow was he always evil? Any examples?
He was leaning on the A-hole side, but not necessarily evil.
What would happen? Well, looking at AU Drarnor, Orcs don't invade Azeroth, which means the Legion doesn't send Ner'Zhul to Northrend to start the Scourge. No Scourge, no combined Alliance and Horde. Therefore, no Might of Kalimdor. AU Azeroth would have been taken over during Vanilla
I always couldnt decide between who has bigger power, Alliance of Lordaeron (as in this scenario - gilneas, kirintor,lordaeron,kultiras,stormwind,alterac+gnomes and high elves) or The Alliance as it happened after fall of lordaeron - night elves draeneis gnomes with stormwind as leader and not lordaeron,
What is capital city of Lordearon?
Arthas and Jaina would be momy and dady. Humans would
be insanely powerful civilisation more than Stromwind alone. It would be Stormwind Lorderon Dalaran and Kultiras.
so, two super power "countries / faction" with a continent of their own. Not encountering each other and no conflict? I highly doubt that. I think at one point or another either the horde goblins, or someone on the alliance's merchants or exploration guild would cross over and encounter exotic resource and eventually spread a mantra of "we must get that / whoever controls the resource controls azeroth thing" and there would be conflict
Why does Doron look nothing like but exactly like I expected him to from years of his voice
I asked for chat gpt about these. What if events? It was interesting what was i made, but all fan made when boiled down to it.
Arthas is the most character I hate in the storyline I wished he never turned evil
This video is amazing thank you I loved it ❤
if there is also an alternate timeline which arthas is king of lordaeron.
I was just thinking about that because of the book the shattering if I remember right
I think we need expansion that arthas come back to life from different time line , and the lich king also
Here comes another question:
What if....Arthas never follow Mal Ganis bait, and the Burning Legion invaded Loderon is an absolute event, who would Ner'Zhul choose to replace Arthas?
arthas will become king of lordaeron without frostmourne corruption if his father passed away and dies of old age.
Imagine King Arthas with Ashbringer as weapon he would be Strongest Azeroth hero leading everyone to victory, with him in the lead there may never be Garosh incident, nor the massive return of undead, he would pose big problem for legion with his power of light and ashbringer, he would marry Jaina have child-ren I think he would make Aliance and Horde Bond stronger so that he would prevent wars
In short I believe with him alive he would be most powerfull Azzeroth ally and much less would die in all expansions
yes like king arthur with his sword excalibur from sword in the stone.
and void and old gods also.
When a butterfly flaps its wings…
he would be a zealot, a LIGHT zealot. Guy was already corrupted with power even before Scourge of Lordaeron.
in an another alternate timeline.
Alliance and horde probably don’t go to northrend in force. Nerz would fall to Yogg.
yes.
Just realized if you set it to 1.5 playback he sounds like nobbel lol
If the Scourge hadn't decimated the northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms then the Legion would have.
Not true, remember it was Kel’Thuzad with the book of medivh. To summon the legion
Dalaran would not have fallen, kelthuzad would have stayed dead and not turned into a lich
He was a convenient tool. They found many other avenues before and after that to breach through.
@@WeaselDancingTime I think you overestimate the legion lol. Because the only reason why they came during legion was because of guldan which was a prisoner we set free in WOD of a different timeline. For he was dead already in our own current timeline. And in war of the ancients they used a power hungry queen to summon them. My point being that they rely heavily on outside sources. Their cards were all in the fact that the undead/ arthas would completely cripple the defenses of Azeroth. Such as Dalaran, lorderon, quel Thalas. But if that doesn’t happen 1. I doubt they even get summoned and 2. I doubt they’d be able to destroy the forces of Azeroth. That doesn’t include the new horde under thrall or the nightelves probably banning with them to fight the legion.
I'm thinking of them more from the WC3 power scaling rather than any gameplay contrivances from the MMO. Nothing I saw in WoW would convince me that Lordaeron could have survived a galactic force of demons with an infinite army once they tricked or convinced some poor mortal to open the door.
i think the main issue is that you make more of Arthas than there is. He was chosen because he was always very arrogant, in an important position and easy to corrupt. He was clearly a primary goal but definitely not the only possible such. If Arthas hadnt taken up Frostmourne, the LK could have killed Arthas and see his father King tereinas take up frostmourne to take revenge which arguably migth have even been better.
Archmage Antonidas could have been subverted with the help of Kel Thuzad, as we see with cataclysm - Jaina wasnt beyond being corrupted either and thats just looking at the players we knew of at the time.
For sure Varian would have loved to take up frostmourne to avenge his kingdom and go against the orcs for revenge for what they did to him. I dont see why Onyxia wouldnt have done the same. I can totally see some troll leaders like Sen'jin or Zul'jin take up frostmourne to protect their people and take revenge on the elves. Heck Greymane likely would have taken up frostmourne himself if he had the chance back in the day. I guess some orcs of the old horde would have worked fine just as well, and im not having any doubt that some high elves - like the ones who became the void elves or darthremar would have worked as well.
So Arthas was the first choice but in retrospect, Ner'zuhl had PLENTY other candidates and also in retrospect he would have been much better off taking one of those to stay the dominant mind within the Lich King and without Arthas holding back the scourge - which he actually did btw - the scourge could have swept all over azeroth and conquer it completly - which was stated multiple times it totally could do. Now with all the more recent retcons thats questionable but back until including cataclysm, that was the lore
nobbel came out with a video not too long ago where he mentioned the exact same thing...............................
He would have married Jania
This video is for everyone who says that WE ARE ALL EQUALS and no single life matters more than other
Other hero would become the Lich King
Very likely, but I don't think anyone could have had as big of an impact as Arthas as the prince brought down the entirety of Lordaeron and added a large part of it to the Scourge, subsequently also destroying Quel'Thalas with these powers.
Genn. Jaina. Kael'thas. All would have made equally fine Lich Kings to Arthas.
@@A2ndVoice Jaina as Lich Queen's a popular alternate. Not sure about Genn since before the wall he was leaning isolationist. I'd have to hear more of how Kael'thas would've been corrupted because even in the better times, the elves tended to be standoffish.
@MSinistrari being isolationist in this case just gives the 2 of them time to build a secret army like Arthas did but closer. Genn behind his wall instead of in Northrend. Kaelthas tucked away in the north could even conquer and turn all of ZA with basically no one noticing. Both suspectible to corruption. Not the same exact pathway, obviously, but easily swayable.
Shortcut: if Arthas never turned evil, he would be one more boring character… The End
With out Arthas One of the most pivotal moments in the azerbaize history wouldn't have happened that's where the alliance and the horde stood together
Trick question. He was always evil.
as a human paladin main i still to this day wish arthas was around and a good guy i thought shadowlands somehow he might return like yesera but nope shame on you blizzard
and danuser.
Muradin would have fallen not magni
or kael'thas because of his jealousy over arthas when he loves jaina.
And they All die cause LEGION ....
City already lost arthes did right ting purge it better purge it leave entire zombie army front arthes buy time
He never did, though… Arthas did nothing wrong.
@mkwarlock Meme.
If Arthas would never turn into Lich King scourge probly would kill all on Azeroth
Mal'Ganis and Kel'Thuzad would win Azeroth for the Jailer
Wow, I'm early!
I mean if we follow his scenario we still have to take what happens after into account so we can assume that world of Warcraft would have the high elves with the alliance still there wouldn't be any blood elves so the existence of draenor and the threat of the second burning legion invasion would probably end up being the draenei showing up and that might be when The horde in the alliance my interact as factions for the first time obviously we know why the alliance would want to go obviously stop the burning legion go to Outland that's a problem but also Outland would still be run by magtharidon so it wasn't exactly play out the same because all of our land would just simply be following the burning legion and then what you would have is a full-on invasion in the burning legion but you have a different type of alliance one that's under King Arthur's and he does hate orcs but he hasn't met thrall and there's a chance that it wouldn't be open or right away so both factions would have a reason to go to the Outland and also I think what that would end up being is we would probably get legion just sooneralso yeah there's another huge problem that shows up and that's what the f*** happens with varian we would still have all of the like onixia threats in world of Warcraft vanilla as well and also varian becomes the high King of the alliance at some point would there be contention or would varian simply just come back and follow King arthas especially after not getting any support when storm went got destroyed the first time does a lot of interesting things that would open up I would more than likely be down with that also one of the biggest thing that your scenario is ignoring would be that you say that the alliance wouldn't go to douratar but if arthas advantage to calm down and not lose it he would probably still listen to medivh because the legion is coming either way so if arthis is cool headed enough to listen to uther than medive will come to them both and then they will all meet in the cave and the biggest thing that I can think of is if they successfully fitted off the legion and follow through with malfurion's plan to begin with but with the full armies of lordaeron like I fully believe that he's right kultras will never happen so the admiral won't break the treaty and it's very well possible that the horde in the alliance will just not fight for quite a while except for conflicts that will come up during what would be the burning crusade except again it would be different as I mentioned