The Unvarnished Truth About Capt Herbert Sobel, First Commander Of "Band Of Brothers"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- The Unvarnished Truth About Capt Herbert Sobel, First Commander Of "Band Of Brothers".
Captain Herbert Sobel was a prominent figure in the realm of military leadership during World War II. Born on January 26, 1912, Sobel is best known for his role as a company commander in the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, whose story was immortalized in the acclaimed HBO miniseries "Band of Brothers." Sobel's uncompromising and demanding leadership style, portrayed by actor David Schwimmer in the series, made him a memorable character in the narrative of Easy Company's training and combat experiences. While Sobel's methods were controversial and led to his reassignment, his presence in the annals of military history remains a testament to the challenges and dynamics of leadership during wartime.
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David Schwimmer did a great job portraying Sobel.
He's got that master douche aura dialed in, I haven't seen him play anything else. IRL that's a %$# way to die, though.
great casting too
all i could see was Ross trying to impress Rachel 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Great casting over all, Mr. Schwimmer earned my respect as an actor in this series. It is hard to play bad guys in movies/series and not fall into clichés
apparently the casting of david schwimmer was criticized by some at the time, but having him in from the start would have got a lot of people watching who might not have otherwise.
David Schwimmer did such a great job, portraying captain Sobel, that it was a significant period of time before I could enjoy his work again. That is the mark of a truly gifted actor.
Agree. I had same experience with Ralph Fiennes, after watching Schindlers List.
so the mark of a truly great actor is that they can doop you since you're unable to realize they are "acting".. wow that is a low bar
@@slowery43 That's the whole point of being a great actor. We all know they're acting, but if I'm being reminded of it while watching the movie then someone has done a piss-poor job on or behind the camera.
Schwimmer was perfectly cast in the series. He even resembles Sobel.
In the BOB series, the scene where Sobel is re-assigned to train another unit just before D-Day is heartbreaking. Schwimmer played it perfectly. He made us see a guy who tried to do everything right, but was blindsided by his own shortcomings. Not being able to read a map is a big problem for a military officer, but it was his inability to improvise and adapt that was his biggest fault. That tripped up Sobel in later life too. Like a lot of WWII veterans, he was surprised and confused that his children rejected everything he had ever valued and worked towards. Sobel's inability to adapt to the shifting social landscape of the 60s cost him his family. That's truly sad.
Great casting!
All the actors resemble their characters, take a closer look
@@BroadswordsYup. In the many interviews and behind the scenes documentaries it has been stated that the producers and staff tried casting people who were similar to the real heroes. Even the real WWII vets remarked on it.
They're both Ashkenazi Jewish so that's no surprise.
Don't you just hate when they use AI bot for a voice?.... the man's life could at least be told by a real person.
Absolutely...
Band of Brothers is a series worth watching, not once or twice but many times! Stephen Spielberg did a wonderful job of highlighting the efforts of E Company, from its inception to the final days of the wars end. I have much respect to those brave men who fought and died.
I re-watch the show every D-Day anniversary, ever since I visited Normandy on vacation.
Furthermore, when you listen to some of Dick Winters interviews on TH-cam you'll find much of the series was were very accurate
They did Norman Dike dirty though and I can't forgive that.
Dike was awarded a Bronze Star for his action at Uden, Holland, with the 101st Airborne Division between 23 and 25 September 1944, in which he “organized and led scattered groups of parachutists in the successful defense of an important road junction on the vital Eindhoven (sic)-Arnhem Supply Route against superior and repeated attacks, while completely surrounded." Dike was awarded a second Bronze Star for his action at Bastogne, in which "he personally removed from an exposed position, in full enemy view, three wounded members of his company, while under intense small arms fire" on 3 January 1945. In preparation for the 13 January 1945 attack on Foy, Belgium, E Company was attached to the 3rd Battalion, 506th PIR. Division Headquarters ordered the attack to begin at 0900 hours. During the assault, Carwood Lipton, at that time the company's first sergeant, described Dike as having "fallen apart." Clancy Lyall stated that he saw that Dike had been wounded in his right shoulder and that it was the wound, not panic, that caused Dike to stop. Dike survived the assault, and eventually returned to the rear in the company of a medic. Afterwards, he was transferred to 506th Regimental Headquarters to become an assistant operations officer. Dike then moved on to become, as a captain, an aide to General Maxwell Taylor, Commanding General, 101st Airborne Division. He later served in the Korean War.
Your right, I have it on now. If the film represented a fair illustration of Sobel, then he was a problem, some say the end justifies the means. For the first time I noticed that while he was busting balls running Currahee he didn't break them like he thought he would in fact the men rose above it and broke out in song. Sobel's face expressed surprise and fear. The fact they jelled and rose above pain, and mind games is a tremendous accomplishment and reflects on Sobel. He looked like a father that wasn't able to cause pain by spanking. No disrespect intended. He helped make the world free for democracy. That expression still gives me chills.
Absolutely. It's one of about 3 things I bothered to get the DVD set for.
The difference between Sobel and Winters is that Sobel was a boss, while Winters was a leader.
FACTS!! That WAS the crucial difference.
I like to think Sobel and Winters did an unintentional "good cop-bad cop".
"Sure, I'll parachute into France, as long as I don't have to run up that fucking mountain anymore."
Capt. Sobel , was a petty tyrant ; just what was needed to train soldiers. He was a nitpicker, but that made his troops attentive to details, necessary for success in combat. A good training officer does not, and in Sobel's case, did not, translate into a good combat leader, and that's exactly where Easy Company was going. He couldn't read a map, and his tactical abilities were lacking. In the modern corporate world, Sobel created what we now call "a hostile work environment" which was bas enough to spark a mutiny by his NCOs, whose job it was to make sure Sobel's orders were carried out. For that to happen the commander must be pretty bad. Major Winters, in contrast, proved that a commander does not have to be dirty, mean and nasty to his men. Every combat leader should be like Winters.
Neither Sobel nor Winters would make it far in today's US military. They were both far too hard on the troops.
Sobel especially would've gotten booted out after forcing them to run up the hill and yelling at them by making racist jokes at people's names or fat shaming thier figures.
Did you serve?@@BoleDaPole
No matter what you think of the man, good or bad, the way he spent the last years of his life and the manner of his death are utterly appalling.
Amen. The VA has a horrific history of taking care of veterans. I saw if first hand in the early 70s.
And private nursing homes are just as shit. My mom suffered it for less than 4 months and died due to severe dehydration, she was only in there to regain ability to walk better; and go back home with dad and my brother. It only takes 2 to 3 days to become lethally dehydrated. The hospital she was taken to after her personal doctor examined her and questioned the sanity of the manager of the nursing home, that hospitals phlebotomist said he had never seen such high sodium levels.
Our medical in the USA is probably among the worst in the world, only propounded by the rich oligarchs as the best in the west because they have unlimited money bags to pay for in home nursing, and or the best surgeons and gang surgeons waiting on them hand and foot. Rest of us, get the scabs.
@@jmitterii2should have checked in on her more often instead of abandoning her to a home. I bet that lawsuit was well worth it tho
@@jmitterii2 Sorry about your mother but, I've been overseas and socialized medicine is not the way to go. Just ask our neighbors up north what they think of their socialized medicine and how much it costs them in additional taxes. Ask them how long it takes to get anything done.
ya thats sad
As someone who graduated from Infantry Officers' Candidate School (OCS) and spent a year as a platoon leader and convoy commander with the 4th Infantry division in 1968-69 the importance of being able to read a map and land navigation is of the utmost importance. Land navigation was the most important skill taught and given the most time during OCS.
and people still got lost
Thank you for your service. I may be from a different country, but, we are still on the same team. Thank you from Peterborough Ontario Canada 🇨🇦 ♥️
I was stationed on Engineer Hill and Dragon Mt. 5 Feb 68' to 29 May 69'. 167th Signal Co.
Welcome Home
Believe it or not, I learned it in the Boy Scouts in the early 1960's. It was called "Map Reading and Orienteering" back then. Those skills have served me well over my lifetime, and not just during my years on active duty.
I personally believe that, given his highschool, college and OCS scores, he had dyslexia. That's why he was so good at and focused on accounting. Most dyxlexics can count their numbers better than they can read their ABC's. There were also reports of him getting turned sideways on a map, like he couldn't tell the difference between east and west. Well, to a dyslexic, E and W would do that. He always got the numbers right though, he'd just lose direction every now and again and get lost.
I also believe he had ADHD. He was extremely high strung and reports state he was also very gung-ho. No patience. Couldn't sit still. He would rather charge right into ambushes and take his chances instead of setting up his own picket lines then waiting for the enemy to probe. He shouldv'e commanded an air cav unit to go tearing ass around 'Nam with, actually.
And in life, how often do we discover the difficulty of putting people into one simple box, only to discover, upon reflection, nuance and subtleties we initially overlooked. Good piece!
Reading a map, and assessing it quickly, is vital for all military leaders. Several Cadets I served with were bounced early because of failure in Orienteering. People like that are the kind that call Arty on their own unit.
You mean like Audie Murphy?!? ;-)
@@chrislong3938 Uh-oh...what don't I know?
@@mikhailiagacesa3406 Heh...
maybe artillery, friendly fire???
@@chrislong3938
How ironic that Lt. Winters indirectly saved his life. Had Winters just accepted Sobel's petty punishment and not requested a trial by court martial, then there wouldn't of been the rebellion so to speak, by the NCO's that subsequently opened Col. Sink's eyes and forced him to take action himself and transfer Sobel from Easy Company thus it would've been him and not Lt. Meehan on the plane that went down.
Maybe. It doesn't mean that Sobel would have been assigned to that exact plane, we don't know.
I'm a British veteran. We had two troop sergeants that were a Sobel and a Winters. The one with Dick Winters skills got far more out of us than the one with Sobels lack of skills. Officers like Sobel cost lives.
This is an attempt to whitewash a bastard. Anyone with rank can force their men to jump through hoops 24/7, there are thousands of examples of that being done going back hundreds of years. Are we to believe that Easy Company was head and shoulders above every other company in the US Army? They obviously were not. More to the point, the men who made up the majority of the Company a year after D-Day were probably not under Sobel's command at any time in their service. They would have been trained by others. Others who were complete soldiers, not jumped up gym bunnies.
I'm surprised he didn't end up with a accidental American round
when he finally saw action
Some officers just do not have the skills to manage men. Sobel was one of them.
amen for Winters
Agreed. This all "he united us against him" is moronic and not leadership.
I knew many of the Band of Brothers men personally. I was an Army Paratrooper in the 82nd (2/504), enlisting in the early 90's. After my medical retirement I even went to the same VA Hospitals that Bill Guarnere (Philadelphia) and Major Winters (Lebanon) went to. It's been very sad to see them passing on over the years
I'm glad they were able to speak to a'many Infantrymen before they went to The Great AA in the Sky.
25th ID (Hawaii) hosted a few of the E/1/506th guys back in ~2007.
They were treated like rockstars (and deservedly so!).
One of my sons was also 11B in the 25th ID, Arctic Thunder@@hateferlife
Sobel should have been sent back to the US, to train more soldiers in parachute Divisions.
Instead, they sent him to another base in England where he did just that. Graduated 400 jump qualified paratroopers before D Day.
Being the 506th's Supply Officer was very suitable for him. And he probably did a good job. Having and getting the right kind(s) and quantities of supplies (bullets, beans, bandages, commo equipment, etc.) is a vital part of the entire system!
In a time before modern special forces, Sobel essentially created his own version of BUDS or SF selection. He was a hell of a training officer but just lacked the instincts and quick thinking of a capable combat officer. It's unfortunate that either the US didn't recognize this at the time, or Sobel himself didn't recognize this. There is a role for everyone in the military and there was certainly one for Sobel... an extremely important role that could have yielded a very proud and long service history.
Terrific, very mature analysis, but I'm not sure I agree that there's a role for everyone in a combat unit. In fact, I know there isn't. The failure of the programs of Robert MacNamara in Vietnam to integrate marginal I.Q. draftees into combat units is one proof.
@@flparkermdpc Or the waivers that were introduced in 2006 for the Army to cope with the troop surge in 2007-2008. We had meth labs in the barracks, stabbings, heroin overdoses, and other shit that I can't remember. I mean, at least those guys wind up getting kicked out and don't deploy. But the ones who just squeak by and DO deploy can be just as bad, especially in an infantry company. We had some real all-stars in my 07 deployment. Fortunately, we didn't take much contact because we were basically paying the militia leaders to leave us alone
I had a First Sergeant like this. He liked to yell and threaten people with Article 15's. It wasn't leading, it was throwing a temper tantrum. The CSM and CO had finally had enough of him and relieved him of command. He disappeared never to be seen again. I have no idea what happened to him, but everyone breathed a sigh of relief that he was gone.
takes a man to lead men not some homlets who got their ranks with connections..my dad was a good officer because he was one of them, in his mountaineering units they were all farmboys as he was, his platoons master sergeant became my sisters godfather, in my country we were over 8-10 years in the same units being reserves doing 3 weeks every year after military-NOC and officer school which was 4 months each national service was from age 18-55 for us..
CSMs do not command anything.
Sounds like my last 1SG. One of the shittiest ones I ever had and he thought because he had jump wings, is shit didn't stink and he was God's gift to soldiers. He was an ass. So much so I can't even remember he name, but can remember all but one other from my 8 yrs.
@@paulcook3275 Then why are they called Command Sergeants Majors? I know the ones I had sure ran things. The Colonel rarely got involved unless it was necessary. And in the case of this particular 1SG, it was.
as should happen to all like him
Nice approach. I knew a handful of junior officers in the Viet Nam buildup, that were reminiscent of Sobel. They believed discipline and regulations would compensate for lack of experience. I too was overmatched, but was fortunate to be “adopted” by a grizzled crew of senior non coms, all WW2 and Korean vets. They let me lead, but we’re there to keep me from getting over my head. It’s my belief that this tradition is what American Armed Services predictably stronger.
This is precisely the approach often taken in the British forces. A newly commissioned Lieutenant work with an experienced Sergeant Major who will say "Good morning, Sir. This morning, Sir, you will order me to do this, that and the other, and that way we will have no foul-ups, Sir." "Very good, Sergeant Major. Carry on".
NCO's aren't there to lead men (that's the officer's job), but to maintain the integrity and cohesion of the unit and educate both the enlisted and their leaders. But in a pinch, they can lead, if the officers are incapacitated or killed. My great uncle (A WWII Marine NCO) had to take over several times during the war, when his unit's officers were wounded, killed, or just mentally exhausted. He was offered battlefield promotion several times and refused as he wanted to stay with his men. If the war had continued after Okinawa (his last battle) he would have been battle promoted for Operation Olympic as part of an expansion of his Marine Division (whether he wanted it or not.).
Many company commanders eventually had to learn, although some never did, was that the company was 'owned' by the First Sergeant, and the officers were allowed to lead the unit, within limits. If they [officers]lost the confidence and support of the NCOs, the company would spial downward as things weren't completed on time or crisply enough and all of these little flea bites were soon noted by senior leadership and often reflected upon the company commander in the form of his Officer Efficiency Report [OER].
@@marks1638 In the British Armed Forces even Junior NCOs are expected to lead and they are trained to lead.
@@marks1638 think what you like....the army will run fine without officers but will not run at all without NCOs...I'm speaking from 12 years in the australian infantry
The Easy company veterans all agreed that David Schwimmer's portrayal of Capt. Sobel was right on, that's exactly how he was
B o B is one of the greatest series in history
He was, in the eyes of the people that he commanded, a real SOB -BUT - by commanding the way that he did, he whipped Easy Company into a real Band of Brothers. He trained them to survive, and, in my opinion, he did a damn fine job.
Casting David Schwimmer was a very good choice.
playing an unlikeable douche was no stretch for him
He may have done the best job out of all the actors in the series.
I thought David Schwimmer's portrayal was very good. I've always hated Schimmer so it was easy to transfer those feelings to Sobel.
At 11:07 there are two photos side by side. The photo on the right is David Schwimmer as Sobel. The photo on the left is, I believe, supposed to be a photo of the real Sobel during WW2 but it appears to be a German officer instead. Wondering if anyone else noticed that!
That was Werner Molders, Luftwaffe ace.
I wondered when that German cross popped up
@@jeffreytaib9251 Confirmed. General of Fighters Werner Molders.
Yes, I wondered what Werner Mölders, was doing there.😂
The INTERNS strike again 😮😮😮😮
It is a sad story, he gets starved to death at a nursing home for veterans. My cousin, not a veteran, did not want to go to one of civilian nursing homes because he said in Polish: "I rather die than to go to one of these concentration camps." Why do people who try to kill themselves put the gun in their mouth and blow off their jaw? In his case, he did it wrong beaus he aimed at at a shallow angle. He ended up blind. Sad story.
Back in the 1990's I got shot in the abdomen. The bullet entered on my left side about at the 5 O'Clock position and 3 inches from my belly button. It went through both intestines, clipped my bladder, fractured my pelvis before exiting my right rear thigh. Yes it took the scenic route, so needless to say I made a trip to the hospital.
I was put in a two bed room by myself which lasted one day. They had put an attempted suicide in the bed next to me. Like you said, he put a gun ( .357 mag) in his mouth and pulled the trigger and blew his lower jaw off. So he was awake and aware and they had him on some machine ( something to do with humidity with tube running in his mouth. Since he could not talk, he wrote on paper to his mother who visited all the time.
But when my wife and daughter visited, he would reach over and change the setting on that machine filling the room with the smell of rotting flesh. After my wife and daughter left, he would turn it back down. He would not touch that machine if his mother was in the room.
One day my wife came to visit and he did his thing with the machine and it was so bad we had to leave the room. So wife helps me out of bed and helps push my 2 IV poles and 3 catheter bags. To get out of the room we had to pass his bed by the door, I can walk but very slowly and with pain. I stopped at the foot of his bed:
Wife: " Are you ok?"
Me: " Yes. Are you coming tomorrow?"
Wife: " Yes, why?"
Me: " I need you to bring me something."
Wife: " What is it?"
Me: " Bring me my .44 magnum."
Wife: " Why do you need that?"
Me; " If this bastard keeps messing with the machine when I have visitors, I'll shoot him between the fucking eyes and finish the job he failed at."
The look on what was left of his face was priceless. Next day my wife is visiting and he did not touch that machine. His mother came in and he started scribbling on his pad and showed it to her. She looks over at me with the most hateful look/scorn on her face. " Yes I said it." then told her what he was doing.
People at the end of life often lose appetite and quit eating. I wouldn't take that statement at face value. It needs more context.
Sobel is a divisive character. If he had had a personality (and the ability to read a map), imagine how powerful a character he would have been in that period.
From the book: "Sobel was the classic chickenshit. He generated maximum anxiety over matters of minimum significance."
My time in the Army in 18 month period we had 5 or 6 different CO'S , and the only one we had that worth a darn was an infantry captain and he knew what was going on .
Sobal is a good example of 'trying to put a glove on a foot'. Although he wasnt meant to lead soldiers, he was quite capable of making them.
A good enterprise recognizers a persons traits, and uses them accordingly.
You said it better than I could...
Just like McClellan in the Civil War. Great trainer, TERRIBLE field general.
Believe it was in an interview that Stephen Ambrose, author of the book "Band of Brothers," gave in which he called Sobel a "bullshit officer," the type to punish the smallest infraction with an overblown negative retaliation. I think another word that pertains to that sort of leader is "martinet."
@@artbagley1406 stephen ambrose was also considered to be full of sh*t by other historians.
In my organization when I want to think about how to handle an underperforming subordinate I start by asking if it's an ability problem or a motivation one. How you handle them is very different. Sobel's situation after the training was over, as we understand it, was ability (he had loads of motivation) and in that case it's actually their leaders fault for putting them in the wrong position or not getting them properly trained.
The story about Sobel being neglected in a VA hospital is just another reason why I have zero guilt about milking them for as much money as I can get
I never met the man. I only knew of him from the BoB series. Maybe he was an SOB. Maybe not. But he was 100% American who served our country at a time of war.
GBY! RIP!
Sobel was one of the Greatest Generation!! He did his duty!! You can't ask for more than that.
I can ask for more. I can ask for competence.
@@andymiller6661 I agree!! But it seems he served well after he jumped into France. Or that's what was reported by one person. I'd like to know what his full combat experience was.
He could've realized the world keeps getting progressive and being stuck in his ways wasn't worth losing his whole family, so, if I was his son, I could've asked for him to be a better dad. Also, did you know the generation before "The Greatest Generation" didn't think they were all that great? Look at what was said about them.
“Parents themselves were often the cause of many difficulties. They frequently failed in their obvious duty to teach self-control and discipline to their own children.” - Problems of Young People, Leeds Mercury, 1938
“We defy anyone who goes about with his eyes open to deny that there is, as never before, an attitude on the part of young folk which is best described as grossly thoughtless, rude, and utterly selfish.” - The Conduct of Young People, Hull Daily Mail, 1925
“Cinemas and motor cars were blamed for a flagging interest among young people in present-day politics by ex-Provost JK Rutherford… [He] said he had been told by people in different political parties that it was almost impossible to get an audience for political meetings. There were, of course, many distractions such as the cinema…”- Young People and Politics, Kirkintilloch Herald, 1938
“The Chairman alluding to the problem of young people and their English said his experience was that many did not seem able to express or convey to other people what they meant. They could not put their meaning into words, and found the same difficulty when it came to writing.” - Unable to Express Thoughts: Failing of Modern Young People, Gloucester Citizen, 1936
"I heard somebody say the other day that everybody was getting too darned lazy and nobody wants to work anymore. That's the truth if I ever heard it." - 1952 Alabama newspaper The Evergreen Courant
"The trouble is everybody is on relief or a pension - nobody wants to work anymore." - Wisconsin Gov. Julius Heil 1940
"What is the cause of unemployment and hard times? The manufacturer and business men say it is because nobody wants to work anymore unless they can be paid enough wages to work half of the time and loaf half of the time. The working man says that hard times are caused by the determined stand the employers have made to beat down wages. Now why is it these things exist during a Republican administration?' - 1922, The Mulberry News in Kansas
"Faced with a shortage of labor when unemployment is widespread, peach orchardists in York and Adams counties are complaining that, 'Nobody wants to work anymore.' There is work, it is reported, for 15 to 25 peach pickers in every orchard in the two counties, but only two to five pickers are at work because of the unavailability of labor." - 1937, The Gazette and Daily newspaper in York, Pennsylvania
“Probably there is no period in history in which young people have given such emphatic utterance to a tendency to reject that which is old and to wish for that which is new.” - Young People Drinking More, Portsmouth Evening News, 1936
“How to bring young people into membership of the Church was a pressing problem raised at a meeting… Sunday School teachers in the audience had found that children were apt to leave Sunday School when they had completed their day school education. They were not following on into the church.” - Why Do Young People Neglect Religion?, Shield Daily News, 1947
“…in youth clubs were young people who would not take part in boxing, wrestling or similar exercises which did not appeal to them. The ‘tough guy’ of the films made some appeal but when it came to something that led to physical strain or risk they would not take it.” - Young People Who Spend Too Much, Dundee Evening Telegraph, 1945
“It’s an irony, but so many of us are a cautious, nervous, conservative crew that some of the elders who five years ago feared that we might come trooping home full of foreign radical ideas are now afraid that the opposite might be too true, and that we could be lacking some of the old American gambling spirit and enterprise.”- The Care and Handling of a Heritage: One of the “scared-rabbit” generation reassures wild-eyed elders about future, Life, 1950
That almost looks like what people say about kids today, huh? It's the same narrative, parents not doing a good job of disciplining their kids, kids are rude and selfish, no one wants to work, younger people leaving the church, technology is making kids dumb and lazy, lack of men taking part in combat sports, kids not caring about history, etc. It's all the same rhetoric that seems to just get kicked down from one generation to another in order to point fingers as to why things aren't perfect. Some of those comments came after WWII, so, they didn't even care about the vets then.
People really thought what we now call the greatest generation was gonna be the downfall of society and now boomers and gen-xers are doing the same to the youth of today.
David Schwimmer’s acting skills were incredible. From Friends to Band of Brothers , such totally opposing roles, he was excellent. One could not despise Captain Herb Sobe as he was portrayed. This video does a great job explaining his successes and failures and his impact on Easy company. I hated Sobel as his character was perceived in the docuseries but with all of his failings he was certainly instrumental in the development of Easy Company. He seemed to find peace in his family after the war, let’s hope so.
As a young man the thought of dying in combat as opposed to dying alone in some dilapidated nursing home doesn't sound quite so bad.. The fact that MANY men of our troops from ww2 ended up this way is an unforgivable blemish on our countries history.
That's the business of war. Our esteemed leaders are more worried about sending hundreds of billions to the ukriane rather than spend a fraction of that nursing our veterans. Richest country in the world and we have veterans going around hat in hand begging for donations through charity groups like wounded warrior. Don't mourn the dead, they're in a better place now. Mourn guys like 40 year old iraq war veteran John Unkown drinking himself to death and unable to sleep due to his "PTSD" or the 80 year old vietnam vet sitting alone waiting to die in some nursing home that nobody comes to visit.
Yeah,great thinking when your alive covered in your best friends remains on a battlefield maybe you’ll think a little harder about such ignorant statements
@@BoleDaPole $75 billion for Ukraine since the war started.About $550 billion for the VA during the same time period.
My father (a 20-year USAF Air Policemen from 1948-68) talked a bit about one of his favorite Overseas Commanders. He had been an Airborne Officer who didn't do well in his first engagement in Normandy in 1944 due to issues in making critical decisions under fire during the confusion caused by botched Airborne landings. After some discussions by higher ups, he was transferred to the MPs and turned out to be an excellent Military Policemen. He switched to new separate Air Force Service in 1948 and eventually became a senior ranking Air Police officer. Some people just aren't meant to Combat Infantry Officers. Dad said the man knew the regulations and laws and how to apply them fairly with his men and suspects. He also he got along well with the local authorities to maintain discipline and prevent problems on both on and off of Air Force bases. He wore his Airborne Wings and his one combat jump on his Air Force uniform, in addition to a bronze star and a purple heart. He wasn't a coward or a bad leader, he just didn't adapt to Combat very well as a leader. I believe Captain Sobel had the same issues. He got flustered during high pressure situations and wasn't great at making critical combat decisions.
I agree 100%. The problem is that the Court "Marshal", refusal(s) to salute Winters, making up false Infractions, andvassigning his best squad leader to Kitchen Patrol looks like it was something _more._ He took things too personally. I still think that we who didn't serve are in less a position to be causality condemning him, like so many do.
This is a very good point, that it takes a certain kind of person to be able to lead troops in combat, but that doesn't mean they can't serve well in a different capacity.
I'm a former Staff Sergeant who became a Regular Army officer. One First Sergeant of mine summed things up more simply; he said there were two types of leaders in the military... "People Pushers" and "Paper Pushers." Both types are necessary, but putting any leader in the wrong job was always a failure.
Please remember that the only source for the Court Marshal and look away/non-salute is Dick Winters. Also remember that Winters admitted that he relayed the worst possible image of Sobel to Stephen Ambroes he possibly could. I read Guarnere and Geffron's book and they did not seem to have the hatred of Sobel that Winters & Ambroes would have us believe. There is also the issue of men who served under Sobel later and seemed to like and respect him.
Wisdom on the part of that First Sergeant. I was lucky to serve under officers that were well placed leaders. I used Band of Brothers techniques on my troops to create a unit mentality, they "removed" those who did not fit in. There is no shortage of reassignment options. It was better for them and better for the Corps.@@mnpd3
Hating your training officer or NCO is the bedrock of bringing a group of civilians into group bonding. The tougher the training the tougher the soldier and the bond. A failure of leadership does not make a fine trainer any less important in the military.
All I’ve read indicates to me that he was an excellent training commander because the Soldiers he was responsible for became arguably the most hardened Soldiers of the time. But he couldn’t inspire people, except for negative inspiration (“I don’t want to be like that guy”) and he couldn’t adapt to changes in the mission or challenges along the way.
Edit: It’s truly unfortunate that he met his end the way he did. Nobody deserves that.
Nope
not me in training all our company ncos and officers were top guys yes they could be tough on you in training but they knew how to wind it down so we knew it wasnt them personally it was just to toughen up. i was gutted when i left basic i never got the tough treatment strangely probably because i was a reserve before regular so i never messed up. my sergeant was the best sergeant ever and this was way before the army went woke.
Im thinking you NEVER finished boot camp or service....clown words.
Nah.
Would have been interesting to hear more about his post-command time in the U.S. Army. Otherwise an interesting video.
Very well done. Good to know the rest of the story. CPT Sobel and the rest of the greatest generation, thank you for what you all did to protect our freedom.
Sobel could train them, but he could not lead them...remember Lincoln's problem with McClellan & how he solved it with Grant...Winters was a natural leader...that is why the men gravitated to him...
Was thinking of McClellan.
Good point. There are a lot of invisible unpredictable qualities that combine to make winning teams.
There's discipline, and hard training (as a retired US Marine I think I can say I've experienced, and dispensed both) but there's also "to much". In basic training, turning raw civilians into basically trained/qualified troops pushing hard and being exacting has it's place and use. But post basic training is mostly about obtaining knowledge and refining skills, for that you need to teach more then demand.
too much, echoed here, once hit hard enough most question why and/or quit (football comes to mind)
For the record, On D-Day, Sobel parachuted into Normandy with the rest of the 101st Airborne Division as commander of the 506th's service company. Immediately after landing, Sobel assembled four men and destroyed a German machine gun nest with grenades before joining the rest of the division near Carentan.
Thank you! I did not know this bit,the soldiers were not all happy with the depiction of Mr. Sobel. They all acknowledge he made them better soldiers
yes, he was an excellent training officer. nobody wanted to go into combat with him@@ericpetitclerc5519
No doubt leading from the back.
Where did you find this information? I would love to explore it more deeply. Thanks.
Learn something new everyday
He was a complicated individual, his tyrannical leadership style more than likely saved lives , but was his undoing, unfortunately the VA of the era failed him , he probably wasn't an evil man , just misunderstood, at this point only God can judge him, my own thoughts are I myself , while im uniform, ive encountered this type of officer, most are wanna be dictators , others are assholes with a purpose, theyre hated but force you to conform , which could save your life , RIP Capt Sobel, you saved lives
Sobels live was saved when he got transferred because his soldiers would have made him a casualty the first day in Normandy.
A good leader must know when it’s time to step aside. Thank you for attending this TED Talk.
Im a Veteran myself and heard he was in a VA Facility in Illinois and died of malnutrition???? How did happen?? Now I understand that the VA was very different from today, but still dying of malnutrition in the late 80s like he did??? Im a disabled Vet myself , live in a VA facility also and we are treated like family by staff, Thank God.
He once attempted suicide that caused damage. Could be he did it himself .Stranger things have happened
When I served in the army, we had an expression dealing with officer like him. We would say, "Mind Over Matter.. they don't mind, and we don't matter..". Most men like him were vain glory Seekers, think General Mark Clark. His attitude wasn't for the benefit of his men, it was for the benefit of his career!
Sobel's live was saved when he got transferred, because Easy Company would have killed him in action on the first day in Normandy.
@@HansJuergBangerterwould he have been in the transport that Mehan was in ? He got killed
@@thomasbest8599 the survival of Easy Company depended on that Sobel wasn't in command, he would have been finished off by one of the NCO's if he would have jumped with Easy.
@@thomasbest8599 the Germans had a word for people like Sobel in military training, they called em SCHLEIFFERS =Grinders, you can't be a grinder and then being part of the troops in war situations..the chances you get finished off by the soldiers you tyrannized especially whn you are as incompetent as Sobel are great.
Mark Clarke should have been sacked and court martialled for opting to 'liberate' the OPEN city of Rome, thus permitting a large body of German troops to avoid being cut off and captured. The Germans then established another defensive line, which cost lots of allied lives. Clark put personal 'glory' and boosting his own ego above professional military duty. He was a disgrace, but was never held accountable for it.
He might of been an arsehole but there was a method to the madness, intentional or not. Meticulous attention to detail is a skill that must be learned and practiced.
As far as his physical training regiment is concerned "Fatigue makes cowards of us all" was a banner hung in the 82nd gymnasium.
I feel like anyone who has served has endured some incarnation of Sobel.
Having been in the USAF, I came away from Band of Brothers with the conclusion that Sobel was a good trainer but lacked the skills for field command. As hard as he was, combat was harder and if a troop couldn't handle his training they had no chance of surviving combat. The Airborne was was going to be the toughest job in the Army so the men had to be tough. My training was relatively easy, and the TI's in basic said it was be cause most of us were going to be in tech jobs not battle field, so we spent most of basic in class rooms. He trained them for their mission, people who didn't serve will definitely come away with a different outlook.
I learned good leadership skills from excellent NCOs. When I got commissioned after having been an NCO for 6 years, it was a smooth transition. You can have high standards, but having witnessed some officers who had poor leadership impacted me positively.
I got that Sobel wasn't right for combat. But WAS a really great training officer...from the Band of Brothers. Thank you for your service Cpt. Sobel.
I hope his Son understands what Sobel's CO understood, "Aces in their places"
This was my takeaway from watching BoB
True.He may not be a great leader,but he was certainly a great trainer.
Sobel was an expert in ability of training. He was also a boob in his ability of command. The first became indispensable for the men of Easy Co.. The other could have led to great disaster for those same men. History has the last say.
Most grunts around the world think their officer is hopeless, but he was instrumental in turning them into excellent soldiers.
And the men of easy company give him credit for that.
For all of his shortcomings, he probably made the Company what it was. What a sad ending for him. Poor Fella. May he rest in peace.
Maybe only because he was followed up by someone like Winters. He laid the groundwork, but still maybe it was only half of the equation.
His legacy is one of a tyrant. His former troops made sure of that when they helped create that HBO tv show.
he made nothing for them,,only a poor menory
We all had a Sobel. Maybe they drove us to try harder, could be. In my memories as a crewman those tyrants made us tighter by making us take care of and watch out for each other. We became brothers on mission and at play. Could be the Sobels showed us where the lines and pushed us to be better.
You don't have to be the best leader, you just have to know where the talent is below you and use them to get the job done. And then acknowledge their contribution. Sobel never gave his men any respect.
I think there were some serious inaccuracies in both the book and the miniseries with how some of the men were portrayed.
Why is there a German Luftwaffe officer with an Iron Cross at 11:07 in the video purportedly being a photo of Capt. Sobel?
I have mixed feelings on Sobel. He was the perfect man to train young men for what they were about to encounter. He was just the wrong man to actually lead them into battle. I had a CO in Germany in the late seventies early eighties who worked our butts off, didn't have a day off for over 3 months in one stretch. I hated that man. Later in life I realized I loved the guy. If not for him I may have never had the career I had. FYI I was stationed in the Brigade that was a a direct descendant of the 506th in the eighties. The most rewarding part of my career.
Great story. RIP Captain thank you so much for your service, Sir!
There are people who are very good in some ways in the job but in other areas totally out of their depth in other areas, particularly when under pressure of a highly volatile environment. Combat requires a leader who is able to quickly adapt and adjust to the challenges that combat throws up.
There are people in other professions who are the same as Sobel
You speak truth good sir.
Captain Herbert Sobel,
Thank you!!!
As a former Army Ranger this story hits home.
I'm a retired Air Force training officer. As portrayed, Sobel engaged in some stereotypical mal-training. But I have to think there was more to the guy.
All who serve deserve respect. He drove his men to focus thier anger on one point.........Himself. Thus hammer forging them into one solid fighting unit. Thats the primary goal of leadership. When real bullets start flying, that unified focus will turn on the enemy keeping unit cohesion together.
I,too, was a soldier; After the war, no matter who you dislike and after that was said and done, The most honorable way to is to say good things about your "enemies"................
The problem is when NCO's and Officers are promoted out. We have had several reach 'flag' rank that rode on the skills and work of their subordinates. One factor, creating problems now.
Whoa!!! what in the "H" is Werner Moelders being shown next to David Schwimmer at 11:08 !!?? Moelders is a German Fighter pilot ace in the Luftwaffe?! At 11:18 you can see the eagle and swastika on Moelders cap not to mention the Iron cross at his neck. WTF!
Thankyou for your service Mr Soebel
A balanced, objective yet empathetic evaluation of Captain Sobel. 👏
Wish that more online posts could have high quality comments like yours.
RIP
Herbert Sobel
(1912-1987)
I have to wonder if Sobel had received adequate training in Map Reading and Land Navigation before being given the command of Easy Company. As it turned out, him being relieved of command just before D-Day probably saved many lives but his harsh discipline and strict training had sharpened Easy Company into one of the better fighting units in the ETO. All part of an amazing story of Easy Company.
If he can whip the platoon into shape, that's great. But not knowing how to navigate or use a map? That'll get troops killed.
At the time the part for David Schwimmer, must have been just another job. Having known him from 'Friends', it seemed to be a big change for him, but perhaps in many of our minds he was typecast as 'Ross'. I thought at the time what a difficult role it must have been to play, because he came across as unheroic. I wonder what Mr Schwimmer thinks of that role some 22 years later?
I've watched many interviews with the actors who played the men of Easy Company. The overriding message is they were incredibly proud to represent those heroes. Even the British actors portraying their role with incredible pride.
Loved that scene in BoB where he was fooled by his men into thinking Major Horton told him to cut the fence. Unforgettable.
Ill never forget Band of Brothers. I was on my way to combat training and got as far as Houston Texas when the airlines shot down because they were under attack. A Marine family saw me in uniform and took me in for a month! I watched the whole HBO Band of Brothers series. By the way my plane ticket was 09/11/2001.
my sisters ticket been on the same day, but she stood just 1 week longer in the USA before flying back to Europe..
i stayed a few more weeks, been wondering why the Americans wondering they got attacked...
been from Europe, best of my class in History, i knew a lot of stuff the USA did wrong the last 200 years and also well informed what the USA did after WW2,
so i just wondered why it took them so long to strike back against the USA!
i understood their motivation, while no supporting their methods!
i am sure, you will not know how the USA and UK destroying the Iranian democracy to replace it with the emperor wich got replaced by the mad religious you have so plenty in the USA, too!
That is how I remembered when it aired. Sept 9, 2001 was the premier, only to be delayed for part 3 due to 9/11. I think it took almost the better part of a week to get back to airing it.
@@REALfish1552because they were playing episodes weekly with the exceptional of the premiere two parter.
I was working at Defence Plaza Sydney, joined HMAS Sydney on the 17th of the 9th, and deployed 11th October 2001
@@Arltratlo I'm assuming you meant SHUT down. But if you survived getting SHOT down, that's pretty cool too, lol
Any man who can carry out his own orders he gives to others is someone who understands the weight of those orders himself. A quality not all leaders possess. Sobel held his men and himself to a standard that all followed. For that he was a good leader.
Although I align more with how Winters carried himself and his leadership style. I cannot understate how people who followed Sobel's method of leadership have their place as well. He teaches lessons before they have to be learned in a much harsher reality. Something not easily done.
VENERABLE University of Illinois? LOL
TRAINING is different than combat, you can handle jacka$$es in training, but in combat, you have to KNOW that your leader knows what he is doing. Gen McClellan was an excellent trainer for the Army of the Potomac, but he was a complete disaster as its military commander. Mac LOVED his army too much and that is why he didn't risk them, even though that is the job of a general, to risk the lives of his soldiers to gain victory. You can not fail to risk them or you will never achieve that victory just as you can not risk them too much and lose them and never achieve victory. It is a hard line to walk, but that is the job of a leader.
I wonder if CPT Sobel was a high functioning autistic, an Asperger if you will.
Some say, he roams the British landscape until this day, trying to make sense of map and compass.
Others try to pacify this grim spirit by putting cans of spaghetti at his headstone instead of flowers.
Sobel did exactly what a training Officer should do. He TRAINED. The fact that he was not a good battlefield leader is a trait common among Officers. To be a great Training officer but not a great Battlefield leader, is NOT an insult. He was GREAT at training.
It sounds he was ultimately a good man who wanted what was best for his men. He just didn’t know how to show it. I’m going to go out on a limb and say something from his past made him the way he was? 🤷🏻♂️
Sobel reminds me of Union General McClellan in the American Civil War; competent in training soldiers, but incompetent in battle. Ironically, he would have been killed during the Normandy operation if he remained commander; the plane carrying his replacement was shot down.
I think it should be mentioned he served in the Korean war as well, he seemed to be able to command a combat unit just fine there.
I knew two great officers in my 23 years of active duty. I knew many average officers and a few really incompetent ones as well. The two great ones were able to know their limitations, strengths and how to overcome their shortcomings. They also knew those same things about the men they led and never set up their soldiers for failure.
My dad was with the USMC 1st Division in 1942 on Guadalcanal. He always said he trusted his XO with his life more than his CO. He never talked about his combat experience, but seeing this story of Sobel and Winters makes it easy to understand.
This is what happens when you burn literally every possible bridge throughout your life and when he needed help most, nobody could. Winters did say he was a bully.
Sobel was incompteten as a leader having no leadership only tyranny, Sobel cracked several times under stress. We all experienced incompetent people like Sobel be it in my case the son of a Colonel who became First Lieutenant but never should have become an officer in the first place. Sobel demanded more from his soldiers than he himself was able to provide as an officer, Sobels flaws as a leader and his leadership based solely on his rank would have endangered the live os his plattoon in any war situation.
Wrong. He was a SOB. But his training helped saved lives. The men appreciated his training after the fact. The fact they are still talking about him is amazing.
Right and his training was simply textbox nasty. A better man could have achieved more with the same training but with real understanding Came across a Flight Lieutenant once whose father as an Air Commodore, she was nice but dim..
He went onto become a Lt-Col, so he must have been pretty good. They don't just hand out high ranking promotions for no reason.
He deserved a better ending than what he got.
There is always two sides to every person's life story
Yes. Bad and Worse.
This was a very interesting article
I was a army map maker, a topographical surveyor. Had he asked someone to teach him we would have. Maybe the fog of war may have still been to much for him, but it's a thought.
He was probably too arrogant and proud to ask for help.
Call a spade a spade , Sobel was just a prick ....
Why the photo of Luftwaffe fighter ace, Werner Molders, on left, at 11.12 ?
I think there's a lot of overdue praise, recognition, and gratitude for Sobel. He did a fantastic job in training. Putting his faults aside and looking at the big picture, he trained his men for being at war not just going. Based off the show I thought he trained his men beyond his capacity and ability to lead them. Maybe leadership was desperate and put up with Sobel until the men wouldn't. Sobel's faults are Command's fault, among many. I rewatch the show I see Sobel's training always showing itself via the enemy. When they're running up Currahee and he yells, "do not help that man!" There's moments when those guys are running for it and as much as they want to, they can't help they have to move. You see it become second nature when someone goes down, they keep moving. We've also seen what happens when they try to help at the wrong time. Every time he seemed like an asshole, that same preparation showed itself. Sobel turned himself into the enemy and did what the enemy tends to do. Enemy is always watching for something. The enemy takes away their leave, forces their plans to change and has them constantly running. Enemy has them thinking, how can I get over on this guy. He was their first taste of "the enemy gets a say." Regardless of what prior expectations, orders or plans were, the enemy gets a say. The enemy is unreasonable at times and incompetent at others, but is really good at being the enemy. It's war and it's hell. They learned to find their down time on the march the first time Bull spoke up during training.
There's a moment in the show one of the guys asks why Easy Co. is always exposed at the front or edge of the line. IMO that's what happens whenever you're good at something, like starters in sports. I remember a vague line from something about Commanders always sending their best guys to their deaths. If it's dangerous but needs doing, 3rd and 2nd place isn't who first comes to mind. For that reason commanders can also be unreasonable assholes at times. Like that river crossing mission. Winters disobeyed but would Sobel? Don't know exactly how accurate some things are but if it is, it shows how much of a dice game life is when you start playing 'What If.'
We also get a glimpse of Sobel in Norman Dike. At least Sobel would be there with them going through it, even if he had no idea what to do. He ran up Currahee with those guys. In reality he trained them to keep up with him. Unlike Sobel, Dike was protected by Command. At the worst possible time, Easy Co. got the worst traits of Sobel in their new leader. It's interesting that it's some of those guys that mutinied who got taken out of action under Dike's watch. Command told them to "follow that man into combat" and they paid for it. Even Winters who wanted and knew he had to get rid of Dike couldn't until it was too late. Until there was no question of why he had to go.
A hero, not on the front line but to those that he trained and served on the front line and acknowledged their survival for his leadership.
He wasn't a leader. Easy Co. had great platoon leaders, NCO's and soldiers. Had not the men under him been great, Easy Co. would've been and unmitigated disaster.
@@ffjsb You are missing something. So let me point it out to be a devils advocate. Sobel did not push those men so hard from the sidelines. His physical training was harsh, but he also did it, beside those men. He did not stand on a grandstand, or drive alongside them in a jeep, he pounded the ground at the same time they did.
That is worth remembering. Would Sobel have been a good combat commander? I do not think so, but that does not make him a bad trainer, if if you personally do not agree with his techniques. The men of Easy Company were amongst the fittest troops anywhere in the world when they went into action. That physical fitness was one of the things that helped keep the survivors alive. Physical fitness is not an inconsequential thing on the battlefield....
A modern army needs a lot of different types of commanders, obviously you want good combat commanders, but you also need good logisticians, good trainers, good staff officers. You can be an excellent Logistics officer and a terrible Combat officer, a superb combat officer and a terrible staff officer, but that does not remove the very simple fact that you need ALL of them....
Sobel was not a good combat officer, he was however a very good training officer, and most likely would have been an absolutely superb logistics officer....
@@alganhar1 He didn't really "train" them, he just punished them with physical workouts. The vast majority of training is done by NCO's, NOT officers. Sobel was also a student at jump school, not the trainer. How can you train men for combat when you're terrible at tactics, and can't read a map????
As nuch as I like the book and movie - Easy Co was not the only good parachute infantry compay in the war. There were many good parachute officers that trained their men hard and were good combat leaders. My father was a decorated paratrooper in WWII (507th: Normandy, Bulge, Germany) with an inner strength as tough as they come. Sobel's way was not the only way.
Even watching the Movie, I was convinced that Easy Companies effectiveness on the battlefield was due to the efforts of Captain Sobel. A Drill Instructors job isn't to make friends with his recruits. His job, first and foremost is to prepare them for combat. They had to learn to think, act and organize as a team in the midst of extreme pressure. They were so well prepared that when combat came, they were well prepared and barely flinched when they had to face their first blooding. Captain Sobel had his shortcomings. One thing he should have done is tell his men, when the training was over that he was proud of the way they handled his deliberate abuse. When the war was won, he could have expressed that he respected them for their performance on the battlefield. It would have gone a long ways to heal the wounds he had as a consequence of losing the command over his inabilities to read maps or lead on the fluid battlefield.
David Schwimmer is a divers and talented actor. He did a very convincing job properly representing the part of Captain Herbert Sobel.
It made me cry to hear that Michael would later go on to recognize the significance his father played forging E companies foundation of excellence. Heartbreaking to hear how the end of his life fared.
Despite Captain Sobels differences in his combat readiness capabilities, he was an honorable US paratrooper with the 101st AB Division...and he served his country honorably. My deepest admiration for him.
RIP
Captain Soble 🕊
506 PIR 101St ABD
Captain Sobel is an example of a particular leadership style essential in training environments. You want task masters to provide hands on directed training to meet specific goals within a set period of time. The problem is that his shortcomings led his subordinates to lose confidence in his ability to lead in actual combat. Its one thing to be in a training environment. Its another to be in actual combat.
During my 20 years of active duty Navy, I can tell you that I met way too many Captain Sobels, and far too few Dick Winters. His lack of leadership style didn’t make Easy great. The men of Easy made themselves great just to spite him. He was a petty, jealous, and incompetent barrier to extraordinary soldiers. It was fortunate that the noncomms risked their lives to get rid of him.
" I can tell you that I met way too many Captain Sobels, and far too few Dick Winters." I can relate to that. My first ship ( LST 1189) was pure hell and low morale because of the CO. He was hated by the crew and he knew it so much that he refused to leave the wardroom, bridge or his stateroom when we were underway. His replacement was not much better. But my second ship ( BB 63) the CO was loved by the crew. He could tell the crew he is going to hell and we would fight over who gets to drive.
Our division officer ( LT) was a real prick that even out CPOs hated. One day LT pushed one of the CPOs to far and got put in his place. First ship had a ensign from from the academy who thought his shit didn't stink. Our GMG2 put him in his place. Those stories on request.
Your lack of understanding of basic human psychology couldn't be more evident. Sit down, you're embarrassing yourself.
I cannot understand how Sobel ever made CPT without proficiency at map reading.