Tabletop Space Marines aren't meant to be lore accurate. They're meant to be balanced for a fun game with your friends. Lore accurate marines are certainly portrayed here.
Partly correct, the reason for it isn’t balance. It’s to sell more of them. Can you imagine your 1k points of marines as they are now with squads of ten guys being a little stronger than table top custodes. lol
In older editions they were pretty lore acurate on the tabletop. Issue was that some lore writers decided to make their special marines insanely more overpowered and game wise they continued to expand the scale of the battles meaning a lot of infantry became useless and as such cheaper. A tactical squad for example used to cost 300 points for 10 models before giving them any upgrades which was the same price as a guard platoon of 35 men with upgrades, and those 10 marines would steamroll the 35 guard since their bolters simply bypassed guard armor all together and in melee they just deleted the guard squads. The difference is that games were 1500 points max and wpuld usually be a few squads of guys, a hero, and a tank or two. Now its 2000 points all the time and everything is so cheap points wise you need to max out with 3 or 6 of everything and you still get another 600 to 1000 points to play around with for most armies, its a shit show. I miss 2+ rerollable terminator armor with 4+ shields for almost 60 points per model
@@techpriest6962 In the single "Secret Level" episode we are talking about, 2 of the 4 marines die, and probably a 3rd though it is unclear. So 75% of the marines die in this media portrayal.
I've heard that Syama Pedersen already left GW. apparently his only job was to help produce this short. I hope that whatever follows it continues in the same vein, and that projects like this aren't just a trojan horse designed to take advantage of our goodwill and get our hopes up. Let us hope that the monkey paw which cursed Henry Cavill is out of fingers.
Carl, you've got to disassociate tabletop crunch with the fluff. Yes SMs have a strength of 4 vs 3 in the game, but lore wise they really are supposed to be impossibly powerful superhumans.
Thank you for stating this, I couldn't quite articulate why I was bothered by his complaint of SMs being too powerful in the episode. For cinematic projects, fluff should be the guideline on what the power levels should be.
yeah, Talos was recorded as moving at 55 miles per hour over rough terrain (Night Lords Trilogy) and I don't remember the text mentioning this as being strenuous and he did this for over 15 minutes. Note that talos is just a standard marine, who knows how fast raptors or other fast units would move.
I think the table top is exponential in scale aka a strength of 4 is twice a strength 3 and said strength 3 is a fanatic laborer juiced up on warp meth who might be able to resist 4 modern cops trying to restrain him
And let's be brutally honest. The reason they don't scale tabletop space marines the way they would lore-wise, is because Space Marines are their top-selling model, and if they scaled them in the tabletop, everyone playing as Space Marines would only need 1/10th of the extremely expensive plastic miniatures in order to be on an even keel with people playing as the less popular other races. It literally cannot be representative of the lore for profit reasons alone, but the same thing happens in the games like Dawn of War too (somehow 7 regular Orks are about the same as 5 Tac marines in melee, what?) And that's before you even start to address other tabletop design restrictions like physical size. How man marines fit in a Rhino? Why is a Tau Fire warrior only slightly shorter than a marine?
Saying marines are only 25% stronger than a mortal is absurd. In multiple books we have astartes ripping open hermetically sealed doors, holding open bulkheads, etc. Not to mention this would make Custodians only about 50% stronger than a cultist
4:01 Regarding Sargon's point about Space Marines as Strength 4 vs Toughness 3. They actually made this point in a White Dward issue (back in the late 90s) when another 40K movie was being made/released (my memory fails me as to what it was called) The magazine article was talking about how tabletop mechanics/army balance required Space Marines to be massively tuned down compared to their cinematic (and in-universe) counter-parts (with a tiny bit of tongue in cheek subtext being that GW wants to sell you an entire army, not just one squad). And for fun they published in White Dwarf a new army list and bunch of stat lines (where even the base-line Marine was like strength 6 with 3 wounds) and of course greatly increased points costs so that you could field a single squad against an entire enemy army.
Replying to myself. Minor correction: It appears to have been mid-2000s (Jan 2005) rather than late 90s and was for the White Dwarf 300 celebration rather than a specific movie tie-in. Other than that, the point stands.
I really think in this episode Titus is the perfect embodiment of the creed “My armor is contempt. My shield is disgust. My sword is hatred.” Though he also shows compassion and love for his brothers, like when he mad charges the buggy and tank, and especially for Metaurus at the end. Awesome stuff.
We can't relate to Spacemarines because they don't think and behave like a human, they're beyond that. I've always said if a Warhammer movie were to ever happen, it should be from the viewpoint of an ordinary guardsman, seeing the horrific aliens and atrocities that happen to humanity, and only when it seems all hope is lost do the Spacemarines arrive, and they're brutal, cold and heroic.
I would say that depending on the chapter and when they became a marine would dictate how human they are although all will never be fully human. Chaos marines or marines from before the Heresy who didn't undergo the indoctrination of later loyalist chapters would be more human and then chapter culture still dictates the ways in which they are inhuman. Iron hands have a hatred for weakness and love of cybernetics, marines malevolent are super pragmatic and callous, Crimson fists are more empathetic, mortifactors are strange in their own ways, etc, etc.
I 100% agree with this, only thing I'd do is something like a sect of scientist found in a sealed cryo chamber, still alive, but deathly weak after being locked in dehydrated for thousands of years. (Most dying) Sealed Before the men of iron, in the golden age of technology, I'd make their science something not entirely useful like botany or coding the pc's if the era as not massively impact the lore. But I'd love a parallel horror tragedy like this, especially for newbies entrance. These people can have normal wholesome family pasts, and an immediate feeling of diffrence at the sense of the warps existence would be mind-blowing. It would also explain why they'd be brought into the places guardsman may not, and possibly protected by some in the imperium for profit, knowledge and self gain.
They may not be normal humans, but if you can’t relate to courage, honour, a sense of duty, loyalty, anger, or a calculating mind, then it’s good thing you don’t write 40k
The other method to go is following a boy as he becomes a space marine, seeing how he changes at each stage, becomming more cold & aloof but also more capable at each stage, you could end it when he finally becomes a full fledged marine & puts on his helmet, sort of symbolizing how he has forever locked away HIS humanity for the sake OF humanity.
Apart from a few curses of "Throne" and "By the Emperor", there doesn't seem to be many displays of faith in 2024 40k. I wonder if 2024 GW can even think in those terms.
I just read the Gaunt’s Ghosts novel where the tanith are charged with recovering the remains of Saint Sabbat. As a Catholic, the faith of the characters in that book felt very familiar and genuine, and it was also portrayed as a fundamentally virtuous thing (rather than blind and irrational). It was really refreshing to read, and I hope future 40K writers will be able to tap into that. While the setting is set up to be suspicious of religion (from an outside perspective), it’s also suffused with it.
I don't know why Nu-Hammer is forgetting itself, but "And They Shall Know No Fear" applies to all Space Marines, not just special characters like Lieutenant Titus etc
The weight of a grim dark world on the psyche of a peak war-fighter; even one that carries the conviction of an Ultra Marine, is as yet unknown. How much "man" is even left in there? When one's mind and body can be captured and hijacked by the enemy; does one's soul still serve the God-Emperor?! For the war-fighter fears neither pain nor death, but only the judgement of his God. I would go heavy or go 'splat-stick' comedy with this kind of material.
Glad to see Titus wearing his laurels I’m might even forgetting my codex organization lore but Titus in this video was defiantly with a veteran squad of could see the cross marking I just couldn’t tell which company so he’s either he’s moved up a bit in the second company or perhaps he’s been promoted to the first Makes sense to me he can spend more time with Calgar without having to deal with the politics of command
The average space marine is 8 foot tall has 2 hearts two lungs and even in basic armour is about 10 times stronger than the average human would have no problem crushing a skull I mean the double handed axes they are wielding around there are giant not sure you know how easy it is to crush a human skull it doesn't take all that much otherwise your points were fine
I think he's reading into the gameplay numbers too literally which is more for balancing than anything else. I think a naked space marine could crush a human skull, let alone one wearing power armour, which enhances their strength considerably.
If anything for myself, I've been seeing alot of Shorts about 40k Lore and I find it alot more interesting than just big marine guy blasts demons, 40k's setting and all the small bits of what goes on along with not everyone being evil or good or having this "Yes we need to glass this whole planet but there is a genuine reason to" is what makes it a very interesting setting. I've only really dug into 40k lore in the last year or so, as Im still new.
The tabletop game of 40K is a joke. It's highly tuned so that non elite faction players dont have to buy a gazillion models to stand a chance against a space marine army for example. Understandably so but that's also due to the inherent creative bankruptcy of the game system itself. It just so damn badly designed and in any case way too tedious to keep up with and play. One of the major design flaws is the aspect of the game that puts a lot of focus in customizability and min maxing unit selection instead of a fun easy game with a bit of strategy and tactics. Like I never understood why weak factions dont get to re-deploy all lost troops at the next turn while the elite factions have to slowly introduce all their units turn by turn without recovering them. That would reduce the requirement of bending the rules so the armies are balanced from the get go
If I recall correctly the Imperial Guard are on par with modern day special forces units like the Army Rangers in their strength & ability, they are pretty much the hardest badasses humanity can produce naturally. The Space Marines are far above even them as their armor, enhancements & experience make them far stronger than they seem on the tabletop, they're certainly more than 25% stronger than a normal human, but if you still are too tied to the table top maybe unit strength is more multiplicative where each point is an order of magnitude increase or something, but that doesn't really matter because TableTop Marines need to be balanced for the game to remain playable, Lore Marines are far stronger than they can be portrayed as in the tabletop. Remember that in lore there are only like 1-10k chapters iirc & each is only 1000 men strong (maybe a bit stronger now with primaris) and they are defending north of a million, if they died in lore like they do in the game there'd be no marines left within single digit years as it does take time to create new marines. Also as I recall in the lore most of the time they really are just functioning in squad sized elements, because something like a single company is enough to conquerer a planet in all but the most dire of times (like Armageddon), its just that even in lore we only really hear about the massive campaigns because they're the most interesting.
The lore is not the tabletop. The tabletop has to reduce complexity to make the game possible. A space marine can definitely run through a scrap rusted jeep at full tilt. And crushing a human skull with a power armored hand would be easy.
GW just got the scaling wrong basing the system off of fantasy. Custodes are more or less where I'd land basic space marines, with custodes themselves being ever further beyond that if the "average" stat line is your basic guardsmen
Interesting thoughts. One thing I would say is I don't think it is true that space marines are dull to tell stories about. The Ultramarines movie was dull and forgettable, albeit an oasis in the desert when it was released. But Space marines have tonnes of great and compelling stories written about them. Even bringing up that the day to day life of space marines is not very interesting is thought terminating, most peoples day to day lives are not that interesting. But the stories of space marines in the novels are often about their most important days and achievements.
The day to day life of a marine is quite interesting though. It's a cross between monastic prayer and discipline, and special forces training. They only have a small amount of free time per day and depending on the chapter they might use it for hunting, making art, helping civilians, hurting civilians, writing tactical treatises, or fiddling with machines. Sure it's not as interesting as a battle or crisis, but there's still something interesting in the brotherhood and discipline of it.
This gave me serious vibes of the astardis project. Carl you probably seen that but it's an absolutely amazing fan made film from a few years ago which has the exact same vibe as this but in my opinion is better
Using the TT as a representation of a space marine is a rather poor idea. Frankly the closest you can get to feeling like a space marine in a table top setting is the D100 games, which shows when you fight basic humans because even a level 1 Astartes character can slaughter humans like it’s nothing. They *are* that powerful Carl.
Space Marines are supposed to be fast and powerful. They are literally 8 foot tall enhanced super soldiers wearing power armor that enhances their already enhanced strength and speed.
Tabletop is a shit way to compare strenghts XDSpacemarines ALWAYS were this strong. In fact now they are even stronger due to the godmaker gland (or rather the half that Cawl put in them) now as Primaris marines they are even stronger. But a marine in a full suit of armour can EASILY crunch a mortals head, always XD
Titus is the walking equivalent of the Ravenor quote. “Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt.”
I agree except Space Marines in the novels are rather different to when they're downgraded for tabletop balancing, so that other armies not so hardy can at least compete. It's game balance you're referring to, not the lore context of SMs.
I think you should focus a lot less on the tabletop rules as compared to the lore accuracy. Space marines are not 25% stronger than a regular human, they're like twice as strong, even more so in their armour. Similarly, they weigh a crapload in their armour, so the buggy smashing, while probably excessive, is possible.
Try 10x, at least. Space Marines are considerably stronger and faster than a Spartan from Halo, and they're able to run 40mph, have inhuman strength naturally which is greatly multiplied by their power armour. The Space Marine armour is often shown as being weighty and clunky, which it is only on impact with the world. In terms of dynamics, it's an enhancement on the Astartes' speed, not a hinderance. So not only are they 10x stronger at least, they're going to be 10x faster than a regular human, all encased in a tonne of power armour. I completely believe one of these monsters could tear through a slapped-together Mad Max-like chaos vehicle.
"they only have a strength of 4 with normal humans at a strength of 3" I've always reasoned that while that is true, the human body is a lot more capable of what Carl, the man, could do if unlocked. Space Marines are super rounded AND lack physical limitations from their own body. Maybe they tore every liniment in their arm crushing that cultists head but their superhuman genealogy suppresses the pain (or not) and repairs it within minutes
what i liked most is how gracefully they show the space marines to move. Very pure in terms of the fighting itself. I.e. efficiency above all else. Even if they still have that deep rage inside of them, they use it as a weapon moreso than a cause to be controlled
as a precaution I've already accepted that new lore is not cannon, and old lore is all we have left and must be safeguarded. just like with star trek, star wars, halo, warcraft, witcher and so on
Read the books. Don't go by the game for their strength or character or lack thereof. Space Marines are monstrously strong and in servo assisted power armour. Dude really...smh.
@@fatpotato190 have one that normally functions. No idea what the hell happened but was so jarring to go from his description where I'm like hell yeah, to "behind d the scenes of inside out 2! Yay!"
@@cameronmcleod8419 most likely some b.s. on my end with my ad blocker not working. So bizzare, first time it happened and on a cool video about warhammer
If this is what they are doing with the licence and Cavil is apart of this I'm here for it , especially as it may mean we get Lady T'au'va in her full glory
@thexenoist3493 much like all gue'la of the imperium your view is limited , you need to realize Cavil may may not wish to have the spotlight you believe , he may place himself as a rogue trader observing the universe as he pleases according to imperial rite , he also may choose to have episodes where his character isn't present but his ideals are , there's also not going to be JUST that show , as the agreement Amazon struck with GW is Multiple shows and films and not all will be the same ....this is why you must open your mind more
4:05 um yes they are Carl a primaris marine alone is 3 times the size and weight of a normal human and their cerimite power armor grants them additional strength don’t be a boomer table top rules don’t apply
Yeah, all cool and it was nice but at the same time they do lots of pointless shit like geting shot 3 times in face for cool pose instead of finishing the guy 0.5s after landing ect. This looks kinda like Halo.
I think you're wrong with your assumption that the "physics is wrong" that a 25% increase in strength can't make the sort of difference displayed when killing that cultist. While I haven't seen the episode, what immediately came to my mind is one of the negative effects of steroid use in real life; that is, the individual's muscles grow at a rate disproportionate to their bones so that they can literally break their own bones with muscle exertion. Since steroids in real life don't produce as much as a 25% increase in muscle strength, it follows that such an increase in strength could allow one to manhandle an entire body of another with one arm and "crush their skull like a grape" with such a disparity.
most of the time it's the connective tissue attching the muscle to the bone which fails, not the bone itself. However, the act of crushing a skull is directly supported in the lore. Primaris marines are implanted with "sinew coils" which are basically durametallic tendons and allow the marine to crush a skull in one hand WITHOUT armour, add in power armour and there is no debate. They weigh close to 2 tonnes and can sprint at over 60mph, I think the depiction is pretty solid.
@@ryanomalley3705 You're right about connective tissue, but the fact that bones still can be broken from muscle exertion after steroid use and it does happen, although less common than the connective tissue failing, still proves the point I was trying to make. Thanks for the clarification, regardless. The extra lore info helps too!
@@rexlupis I've never heard of that so that's good to know lol. Yeah I wasn't trying to disprove your point at all I definitely agree with you I'm just surprised that Carl seems to be quite off base on his observations. It reminds me of the misconception some people had of Neanderthals in that they were so strong their muscles could bend their bones out of shape. The reality is their forearms bones were a different shape to accommodate stronger muscles, not that the muscles themselves bent the bones.
Mark my words. This show, just like everything else touched by Amazon, will bend to woke compromise. It might not be female space marines, but it's going to be something else. Something that is supposed to be subtle, but immediately pricks up the senses. Misunderstanding the lore, retconning, diversity inserts, and the obligatory girl-boss. I have no hope left for any media that I used to love besides music.
Not everything Amazon puts out is shit, Reacher is the best example there. It might be relatively inoccuous like Invincible where the mother is made more asian and his first girlfriend is black. Aside from that and some reordering of events to fit better on TV, it's basically unchanged.
God thank they dropped all the cringe dialogue and only made the characters speak when absolutely necessary like they would if they were real stoic uebermensch warriors. Im sure they took a page out of the project Astartes that did everything just right
Seems he doesn't even know about Rboyle's Helsreach masterpiece nor the daniverse, which have some of the most introspective view on the psychology of a space marine. I wonder if he knows about the old heresy books.
What we saw is accurate to the fluff and that's more important to being accurate to the tabletop. Like the old joke interaction between a custodies and a chaos marine Chaos marine - "Your days are numbered corpse follower." Custodies "This isn't the ****ng table top, traitor".
Stop using tabletop logic to lore, man. It's annoying as hell. And yes, Space Marines can indeed crush your skull like a grape. And yes they can ram a car to pieces. I won't be subscribing to your channel, your narration is irritating.
Carl, I watched you before it was politics for a long time talking stuff… you should do this again with arch, love you dude but you’re a lore muggle. Lol Marines, are disgusting underpowered on the table top. Lore wise you’re looking at someone that can have a heart shot out and keep fighting… they would rip a tanks door off and beat you to death with it… out of his armour. That is not 25% stronger than you. The game space marine 2, you are underpowered for gameplay reasons. Lore wise the entire game is terrible. I’ve finished everything it has to offer and got all awards and hope for new content… lore wise it’s pretty trash.
![ILLSLICK X YOUNGOHM - We're The same [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yUJNkobYR0E/mqdefault.jpg)
Tabletop Space Marines aren't meant to be lore accurate. They're meant to be balanced for a fun game with your friends. Lore accurate marines are certainly portrayed here.
Partly correct, the reason for it isn’t balance. It’s to sell more of them. Can you imagine your 1k points of marines as they are now with squads of ten guys being a little stronger than table top custodes. lol
In the lore Space Marines die way more often than in any media portrayal.
In older editions they were pretty lore acurate on the tabletop. Issue was that some lore writers decided to make their special marines insanely more overpowered and game wise they continued to expand the scale of the battles meaning a lot of infantry became useless and as such cheaper.
A tactical squad for example used to cost 300 points for 10 models before giving them any upgrades which was the same price as a guard platoon of 35 men with upgrades, and those 10 marines would steamroll the 35 guard since their bolters simply bypassed guard armor all together and in melee they just deleted the guard squads.
The difference is that games were 1500 points max and wpuld usually be a few squads of guys, a hero, and a tank or two.
Now its 2000 points all the time and everything is so cheap points wise you need to max out with 3 or 6 of everything and you still get another 600 to 1000 points to play around with for most armies, its a shit show.
I miss 2+ rerollable terminator armor with 4+ shields for almost 60 points per model
@@techpriest6962 In the single "Secret Level" episode we are talking about, 2 of the 4 marines die, and probably a 3rd though it is unclear. So 75% of the marines die in this media portrayal.
I've heard that Syama Pedersen already left GW. apparently his only job was to help produce this short. I hope that whatever follows it continues in the same vein, and that projects like this aren't just a trojan horse designed to take advantage of our goodwill and get our hopes up. Let us hope that the monkey paw which cursed Henry Cavill is out of fingers.
Carl, you've got to disassociate tabletop crunch with the fluff. Yes SMs have a strength of 4 vs 3 in the game, but lore wise they really are supposed to be impossibly powerful superhumans.
Thank you for stating this, I couldn't quite articulate why I was bothered by his complaint of SMs being too powerful in the episode. For cinematic projects, fluff should be the guideline on what the power levels should be.
yeah, Talos was recorded as moving at 55 miles per hour over rough terrain (Night Lords Trilogy) and I don't remember the text mentioning this as being strenuous and he did this for over 15 minutes. Note that talos is just a standard marine, who knows how fast raptors or other fast units would move.
I think the table top is exponential in scale aka a strength of 4 is twice a strength 3 and said strength 3 is a fanatic laborer juiced up on warp meth who might be able to resist 4 modern cops trying to restrain him
And let's be brutally honest. The reason they don't scale tabletop space marines the way they would lore-wise, is because Space Marines are their top-selling model, and if they scaled them in the tabletop, everyone playing as Space Marines would only need 1/10th of the extremely expensive plastic miniatures in order to be on an even keel with people playing as the less popular other races.
It literally cannot be representative of the lore for profit reasons alone, but the same thing happens in the games like Dawn of War too (somehow 7 regular Orks are about the same as 5 Tac marines in melee, what?)
And that's before you even start to address other tabletop design restrictions like physical size. How man marines fit in a Rhino? Why is a Tau Fire warrior only slightly shorter than a marine?
as the old joke goes 'This isn't the ^%%$ng tabletop, traitor'
Saying marines are only 25% stronger than a mortal is absurd. In multiple books we have astartes ripping open hermetically sealed doors, holding open bulkheads, etc.
Not to mention this would make Custodians only about 50% stronger than a cultist
4:01 Regarding Sargon's point about Space Marines as Strength 4 vs Toughness 3.
They actually made this point in a White Dward issue (back in the late 90s) when another 40K movie was being made/released (my memory fails me as to what it was called)
The magazine article was talking about how tabletop mechanics/army balance required Space Marines to be massively tuned down compared to their cinematic (and in-universe) counter-parts (with a tiny bit of tongue in cheek subtext being that GW wants to sell you an entire army, not just one squad). And for fun they published in White Dwarf a new army list and bunch of stat lines (where even the base-line Marine was like strength 6 with 3 wounds) and of course greatly increased points costs so that you could field a single squad against an entire enemy army.
Replying to myself. Minor correction: It appears to have been mid-2000s (Jan 2005) rather than late 90s and was for the White Dwarf 300 celebration rather than a specific movie tie-in. Other than that, the point stands.
The fact that Carl thinks space marines are only 25% stronger than a normal human disqualifies him from speaking any further on 40k
Yeah. I didn’t understand him saying that. A Space Marine out of his Power Armor can easily lift tons.
I really think in this episode Titus is the perfect embodiment of the creed “My armor is contempt. My shield is disgust. My sword is hatred.” Though he also shows compassion and love for his brothers, like when he mad charges the buggy and tank, and especially for Metaurus at the end. Awesome stuff.
Isn't Titus specifically more resistant to warp corruption anyway? It was established in space marine 1
hes IMMUNE to the warp. entirely. ergo "what could a soul like that be capable of" he can turn the tide...thats what.
We can't relate to Spacemarines because they don't think and behave like a human, they're beyond that.
I've always said if a Warhammer movie were to ever happen, it should be from the viewpoint of an ordinary guardsman, seeing the horrific aliens and atrocities that happen to humanity, and only when it seems all hope is lost do the Spacemarines arrive, and they're brutal, cold and heroic.
I would say that depending on the chapter and when they became a marine would dictate how human they are although all will never be fully human. Chaos marines or marines from before the Heresy who didn't undergo the indoctrination of later loyalist chapters would be more human and then chapter culture still dictates the ways in which they are inhuman.
Iron hands have a hatred for weakness and love of cybernetics, marines malevolent are super pragmatic and callous, Crimson fists are more empathetic, mortifactors are strange in their own ways, etc, etc.
I 100% agree with this, only thing I'd do is something like a sect of scientist found in a sealed cryo chamber, still alive, but deathly weak after being locked in dehydrated for thousands of years. (Most dying)
Sealed Before the men of iron, in the golden age of technology, I'd make their science something not entirely useful like botany or coding the pc's if the era as not massively impact the lore.
But I'd love a parallel horror tragedy like this, especially for newbies entrance.
These people can have normal wholesome family pasts, and an immediate feeling of diffrence at the sense of the warps existence would be mind-blowing.
It would also explain why they'd be brought into the places guardsman may not, and possibly protected by some in the imperium for profit, knowledge and self gain.
They may not be normal humans, but if you can’t relate to courage, honour, a sense of duty, loyalty, anger, or a calculating mind, then it’s good thing you don’t write 40k
just make prospero burns its one of the best stories anyway and perfect to be told from the human point of view
The other method to go is following a boy as he becomes a space marine, seeing how he changes at each stage, becomming more cold & aloof but also more capable at each stage, you could end it when he finally becomes a full fledged marine & puts on his helmet, sort of symbolizing how he has forever locked away HIS humanity for the sake OF humanity.
Apart from a few curses of "Throne" and "By the Emperor", there doesn't seem to be many displays of faith in 2024 40k. I wonder if 2024 GW can even think in those terms.
I just read the Gaunt’s Ghosts novel where the tanith are charged with recovering the remains of Saint Sabbat. As a Catholic, the faith of the characters in that book felt very familiar and genuine, and it was also portrayed as a fundamentally virtuous thing (rather than blind and irrational). It was really refreshing to read, and I hope future 40K writers will be able to tap into that. While the setting is set up to be suspicious of religion (from an outside perspective), it’s also suffused with it.
@@samurguy9906 Great books. Love the Ghosts.
I don't know why Nu-Hammer is forgetting itself, but "And They Shall Know No Fear" applies to all Space Marines, not just special characters like Lieutenant Titus etc
4:00 no, marines in lore are that powerfull. they are supposed to as far above orks as orks are above regular humens.
The Emperor adapts.
The tabletop game is made to be relatively balanced. Otherwise everyone would just pick spacemarines and no one would be any other character.
The weight of a grim dark world on the psyche of a peak war-fighter; even one that carries the conviction of an Ultra Marine, is as yet unknown. How much "man" is even left in there? When one's mind and body can be captured and hijacked by the enemy; does one's soul still serve the God-Emperor?! For the war-fighter fears neither pain nor death, but only the judgement of his God.
I would go heavy or go 'splat-stick' comedy with this kind of material.
Glad to see Titus wearing his laurels
I’m might even forgetting my codex organization lore but Titus in this video was defiantly with a veteran squad of could see the cross marking I just couldn’t tell which company so he’s either he’s moved up a bit in the second company or perhaps he’s been promoted to the first
Makes sense to me he can spend more time with Calgar without having to deal with the politics of command
The average space marine is 8 foot tall has 2 hearts two lungs and even in basic armour is about 10 times stronger than the average human would have no problem crushing a skull I mean the double handed axes they are wielding around there are giant not sure you know how easy it is to crush a human skull it doesn't take all that much otherwise your points were fine
I think he's reading into the gameplay numbers too literally which is more for balancing than anything else.
I think a naked space marine could crush a human skull, let alone one wearing power armour, which enhances their strength considerably.
If anything for myself, I've been seeing alot of Shorts about 40k Lore and I find it alot more interesting than just big marine guy blasts demons, 40k's setting and all the small bits of what goes on along with not everyone being evil or good or having this "Yes we need to glass this whole planet but there is a genuine reason to" is what makes it a very interesting setting. I've only really dug into 40k lore in the last year or so, as Im still new.
I like the ultramarines movie 😢
He really does know NOTHING about lore vs crunch.
The tabletop game of 40K is a joke. It's highly tuned so that non elite faction players dont have to buy a gazillion models to stand a chance against a space marine army for example. Understandably so but that's also due to the inherent creative bankruptcy of the game system itself. It just so damn badly designed and in any case way too tedious to keep up with and play. One of the major design flaws is the aspect of the game that puts a lot of focus in customizability and min maxing unit selection instead of a fun easy game with a bit of strategy and tactics. Like I never understood why weak factions dont get to re-deploy all lost troops at the next turn while the elite factions have to slowly introduce all their units turn by turn without recovering them. That would reduce the requirement of bending the rules so the armies are balanced from the get go
It's not that complicated Sargon. I can guarantee you the suits at Amazon were sold on this line: Lovecraftian Cinematic Universe.
War fought occasionally with hammers, because Thunderhammers are rare.
this is why i thought theyd go eisenhorn or via the guard to start to make them visably awe inspiring
If I recall correctly the Imperial Guard are on par with modern day special forces units like the Army Rangers in their strength & ability, they are pretty much the hardest badasses humanity can produce naturally.
The Space Marines are far above even them as their armor, enhancements & experience make them far stronger than they seem on the tabletop, they're certainly more than 25% stronger than a normal human, but if you still are too tied to the table top maybe unit strength is more multiplicative where each point is an order of magnitude increase or something, but that doesn't really matter because TableTop Marines need to be balanced for the game to remain playable, Lore Marines are far stronger than they can be portrayed as in the tabletop.
Remember that in lore there are only like 1-10k chapters iirc & each is only 1000 men strong (maybe a bit stronger now with primaris) and they are defending north of a million, if they died in lore like they do in the game there'd be no marines left within single digit years as it does take time to create new marines.
Also as I recall in the lore most of the time they really are just functioning in squad sized elements, because something like a single company is enough to conquerer a planet in all but the most dire of times (like Armageddon), its just that even in lore we only really hear about the massive campaigns because they're the most interesting.
The lore is not the tabletop. The tabletop has to reduce complexity to make the game possible. A space marine can definitely run through a scrap rusted jeep at full tilt. And crushing a human skull with a power armored hand would be easy.
GW just got the scaling wrong basing the system off of fantasy.
Custodes are more or less where I'd land basic space marines, with custodes themselves being ever further beyond that if the "average" stat line is your basic guardsmen
40k is Going to Strange and Interesting New Places. Would you like to learn more?
Interesting thoughts. One thing I would say is I don't think it is true that space marines are dull to tell stories about. The Ultramarines movie was dull and forgettable, albeit an oasis in the desert when it was released. But Space marines have tonnes of great and compelling stories written about them. Even bringing up that the day to day life of space marines is not very interesting is thought terminating, most peoples day to day lives are not that interesting. But the stories of space marines in the novels are often about their most important days and achievements.
The day to day life of a marine is quite interesting though. It's a cross between monastic prayer and discipline, and special forces training. They only have a small amount of free time per day and depending on the chapter they might use it for hunting, making art, helping civilians, hurting civilians, writing tactical treatises, or fiddling with machines.
Sure it's not as interesting as a battle or crisis, but there's still something interesting in the brotherhood and discipline of it.
This gave me serious vibes of the astardis project. Carl you probably seen that but it's an absolutely amazing fan made film from a few years ago which has the exact same vibe as this but in my opinion is better
This is where the lore always was
Using the TT as a representation of a space marine is a rather poor idea. Frankly the closest you can get to feeling like a space marine in a table top setting is the D100 games, which shows when you fight basic humans because even a level 1 Astartes character can slaughter humans like it’s nothing.
They *are* that powerful Carl.
Space Marines are supposed to be fast and powerful. They are literally 8 foot tall enhanced super soldiers wearing power armor that enhances their already enhanced strength and speed.
Tabletop is a shit way to compare strenghts XDSpacemarines ALWAYS were this strong. In fact now they are even stronger due to the godmaker gland (or rather the half that Cawl put in them) now as Primaris marines they are even stronger. But a marine in a full suit of armour can EASILY crunch a mortals head, always XD
So your saying my blonde haired ,blue eyed Smurfs are problematic
No, I'm saying the Dark Angels are a metaphor for homosexuality. The Boys from Brazil are fine.
Titus is the walking equivalent of the Ravenor quote.
“Chaos claims the unwary or the incomplete. A true man may flinch away its embrace, if he is stalwart, and he girds his soul with the armour of contempt.”
@@foreshame7370we need they boys back lol I was just thinking of that film while watching josh on about cloning
@@foreshame7370 Gayness is a sin? based.
I agree except Space Marines in the novels are rather different to when they're downgraded for tabletop balancing, so that other armies not so hardy can at least compete. It's game balance you're referring to, not the lore context of SMs.
I think you should focus a lot less on the tabletop rules as compared to the lore accuracy.
Space marines are not 25% stronger than a regular human, they're like twice as strong, even more so in their armour. Similarly, they weigh a crapload in their armour, so the buggy smashing, while probably excessive, is possible.
Try 10x, at least.
Space Marines are considerably stronger and faster than a Spartan from Halo, and they're able to run 40mph, have inhuman strength naturally which is greatly multiplied by their power armour. The Space Marine armour is often shown as being weighty and clunky, which it is only on impact with the world. In terms of dynamics, it's an enhancement on the Astartes' speed, not a hinderance. So not only are they 10x stronger at least, they're going to be 10x faster than a regular human, all encased in a tonne of power armour.
I completely believe one of these monsters could tear through a slapped-together Mad Max-like chaos vehicle.
"they only have a strength of 4 with normal humans at a strength of 3"
I've always reasoned that while that is true, the human body is a lot more capable of what Carl, the man, could do if unlocked.
Space Marines are super rounded AND lack physical limitations from their own body. Maybe they tore every liniment in their arm crushing that cultists head but their superhuman genealogy suppresses the pain (or not) and repairs it within minutes
what i liked most is how gracefully they show the space marines to move. Very pure in terms of the fighting itself. I.e. efficiency above all else. Even if they still have that deep rage inside of them, they use it as a weapon moreso than a cause to be controlled
as a precaution I've already accepted that new lore is not cannon, and old lore is all we have left and must be safeguarded.
just like with star trek, star wars, halo, warcraft, witcher and so on
“There not that much more powerful” this guy clearly hasn’t read the books
Read the books. Don't go by the game for their strength or character or lack thereof. Space Marines are monstrously strong and in servo assisted power armour. Dude really...smh.
IDk what the hell is going on but I got six Inside out 2 ads on this ten minute video.
Carlgon of Swindon is desperately in need of cash
no ad blocker?
@@fatpotato190 have one that normally functions. No idea what the hell happened but was so jarring to go from his description where I'm like hell yeah, to "behind d the scenes of inside out 2! Yay!"
@@cameronmcleod8419 most likely some b.s. on my end with my ad blocker not working. So bizzare, first time it happened and on a cool video about warhammer
I got zero adds and don’t even have add blocker lmao
Titus is doom guy
Multiple adds on Carl’s video? What is this, 2014?
If this is what they are doing with the licence and Cavil is apart of this I'm here for it , especially as it may mean we get Lady T'au'va in her full glory
Lol, showing the warp manifestation of the Greater Good in the Cavil show is not going to happen, I would be shocked if the Tau come up at all.
@thexenoist3493 much like all gue'la of the imperium your view is limited , you need to realize Cavil may may not wish to have the spotlight you believe , he may place himself as a rogue trader observing the universe as he pleases according to imperial rite , he also may choose to have episodes where his character isn't present but his ideals are , there's also not going to be JUST that show , as the agreement Amazon struck with GW is Multiple shows and films and not all will be the same ....this is why you must open your mind more
4:05 um yes they are Carl a primaris marine alone is 3 times the size and weight of a normal human and their cerimite power armor grants them additional strength don’t be a boomer
table top rules don’t apply
I pray Henry Cavil does everything in his power to make the Warhammer show as rightwing as possible.
Embarrassing
You are seeing the beginnings of Amazon's subversion of 40k.
Does ANYONE know what they were dragging?
if you watched the episode, yes
Yeah, all cool and it was nice but at the same time they do lots of pointless shit like geting shot 3 times in face for cool pose instead of finishing the guy 0.5s after landing ect. This looks kinda like Halo.
I think you're bringing too much of the tabletop into this
They should have just made the whole series 40k the rest were weak
Stuff cant be lore accurate and balanced for a game in most things
I think you're wrong with your assumption that the "physics is wrong" that a 25% increase in strength can't make the sort of difference displayed when killing that cultist. While I haven't seen the episode, what immediately came to my mind is one of the negative effects of steroid use in real life; that is, the individual's muscles grow at a rate disproportionate to their bones so that they can literally break their own bones with muscle exertion. Since steroids in real life don't produce as much as a 25% increase in muscle strength, it follows that such an increase in strength could allow one to manhandle an entire body of another with one arm and "crush their skull like a grape" with such a disparity.
most of the time it's the connective tissue attching the muscle to the bone which fails, not the bone itself. However, the act of crushing a skull is directly supported in the lore. Primaris marines are implanted with "sinew coils" which are basically durametallic tendons and allow the marine to crush a skull in one hand WITHOUT armour, add in power armour and there is no debate. They weigh close to 2 tonnes and can sprint at over 60mph, I think the depiction is pretty solid.
@@ryanomalley3705 You're right about connective tissue, but the fact that bones still can be broken from muscle exertion after steroid use and it does happen, although less common than the connective tissue failing, still proves the point I was trying to make.
Thanks for the clarification, regardless. The extra lore info helps too!
@@rexlupis I've never heard of that so that's good to know lol. Yeah I wasn't trying to disprove your point at all I definitely agree with you I'm just surprised that Carl seems to be quite off base on his observations. It reminds me of the misconception some people had of Neanderthals in that they were so strong their muscles could bend their bones out of shape. The reality is their forearms bones were a different shape to accommodate stronger muscles, not that the muscles themselves bent the bones.
I've been enjoying Rogue Trader a fair bit. A game worthy of the Golden Throne and Holy Terra.
The game is an insult to the TTRPG it is based off of.
Sorry but lore and tabletop are quite distinct from each other. The values of the game don't matter.
Mark my words. This show, just like everything else touched by Amazon, will bend to woke compromise. It might not be female space marines, but it's going to be something else. Something that is supposed to be subtle, but immediately pricks up the senses. Misunderstanding the lore, retconning, diversity inserts, and the obligatory girl-boss. I have no hope left for any media that I used to love besides music.
Not everything Amazon puts out is shit, Reacher is the best example there. It might be relatively inoccuous like Invincible where the mother is made more asian and his first girlfriend is black. Aside from that and some reordering of events to fit better on TV, it's basically unchanged.
God thank they dropped all the cringe dialogue and only made the characters speak when absolutely necessary like they would if they were real stoic uebermensch warriors. Im sure they took a page out of the project Astartes that did everything just right
Guy who called the antagonists in 'Astartes' a bunch of "I dunno space-bandits" has opinions on 40k.
Great...
Damn you must get all the chicks at table top night
Seems he doesn't even know about Rboyle's Helsreach masterpiece nor the daniverse, which have some of the most introspective view on the psychology of a space marine. I wonder if he knows about the old heresy books.
This is a man so stupid he accidentally crashed UKIP. His whole brand is opining on things he hasn't read and doesn't understand.
What we saw is accurate to the fluff and that's more important to being accurate to the tabletop.
Like the old joke interaction between a custodies and a chaos marine
Chaos marine - "Your days are numbered corpse follower."
Custodies "This isn't the ****ng table top, traitor".
Stop using tabletop logic to lore, man. It's annoying as hell.
And yes, Space Marines can indeed crush your skull like a grape. And yes they can ram a car to pieces.
I won't be subscribing to your channel, your narration is irritating.
Carl, I watched you before it was politics for a long time talking stuff… you should do this again with arch, love you dude but you’re a lore muggle. Lol
Marines, are disgusting underpowered on the table top. Lore wise you’re looking at someone that can have a heart shot out and keep fighting… they would rip a tanks door off and beat you to death with it… out of his armour. That is not 25% stronger than you. The game space marine 2, you are underpowered for gameplay reasons. Lore wise the entire game is terrible. I’ve finished everything it has to offer and got all awards and hope for new content… lore wise it’s pretty trash.