Denathrius is my favorite final boss. Amazing mechanics, fun fight, amazing visuals and voice lines, and most importantly is a good length, enrage was like 10 minutes, I hate these 15+ minute bosses
Ahh Lei Shen. Our guild put in 600 attempts on him and had a 3% wipe the night before nerfs hit. Felt bad, but still love the memories of the epicness!
My guild killed this on attempt 297 at 11pm - last pull of the night... on the last raid of the week... on the last reset of the patch. My Cutting Edge achievement for him is one day before the release of 5.4. I remember logging off amped up and logging in the next morning to grab my legendary cloak before Siege of Org that night. Great times.
This video is absolute fire, Max. Personally, I think it might be my favorite you have ever made. Though there have been multiple tier lists I adore. Thanks for this!
Man Throne of Thunder was such a good raid - especially for the time. Remember, this is already 10 years ago and still some of the best unique boss design. No boss in that thing felt lame to me.
@@Hephera Did you play a multidot or heavy burst class on that fight? This was heaven for multidotters and the damage bonus on the boss was crazy with all the buffs stacked on top of your cds. It was a fun mid-tier boss to blow apart, with many nice interactions for DPS classes. And to me it felt epic how all the slimes crawled towards the center of the room. I guess everyone remembers it differently.
Ashvane, Thogar into Painsmith into Siegecrafter, Sludgefist is amazing. Coordination checks paired with dps checks centered around the most infamous mid-raid boss. And by making the raid 11 bosses you make it symmetrical, three bosses before the first split and three after the second split.
Most bosses from Tomb of Soakgeras (with their raid-wide one-shots if ANYONE failed a boss, many of the SoD bosses that required you to hold DPS to push at certain timings. These specific bosses are because of their pre-nerf versions: SLG, Halondrus, Anduin, OBVIOUSLY Lords since it was only killable by Echo and Liquid until it was nerfed. That's mostly SL and Legion bosses.
Hellfire Assault, Immerseus, Rhyollith, Atramedes, Amber Shaper Unsok, Eonar, Will of the Emperor, Maiden of Vigilance, Dark Animus, Shadow Lord Iskar, Spine of Deathwing, Madness of Deathwing And just like in Bastion of Twilight the last boss will only appear on Mythic mode, Kil'Jaeden HA and Immerseus will be back to back, then you'll have a branching path to fight Atramedes or Rhyollith, which annoying gimmick fight will you choose first? Then Amber Shaper, Eonar and Will all in a straight line, then you'll have a 3 way branching path between Maiden, Dark Animus and Shadow Lord, then a straight shot to the end. The goal of my raid is to annoy and bore the hell out of you with the first 7 bosses. Then Will comes up and your melee start complaining while your ranged are still in that bored slump, the goal is to foster discourse and rage with half your raid asleep and the other half starting to tilt then we hit you with 3 of the most spreadsheet, single person responsibility fights in the game, your melee are mad because the ranged are asleep and the ranged are still asleep and can't preform the actions required to not wipe the raid. Then we hit you with the 2 piece Deathwing combo and anybody still progressing in the raid on the highest difficulty will now have to progress on the guild breaker. The casual raiders all quit because they don't have 6 hours to clear the first half of the raid, your semi hardcore all quit because they couldn't get past Maiden, Dark Animus and Shadow Lord and now with a dwindling playerbase your bleeding edge players have nobody to recruit to progress on the hardest fight of all time.
nah you're just putting gimmick bosses in your list that were meant to be a gimmick. Other than Madness of Deathwing which imo is the worst end boss of all time, I think fights like SLG which were intended to be regular fights that ended up being garbage tier are much worse than the gimmicks
walls in the middle rather than back to back to back to back at the end are good because you get a bit of a mental reset. SOFO was rough because it was like Halondrus --> Anduin --> Rygelon with only Lords to kind of let you chill before --> Jailer this lets you have a couple of easier bosses for peoples' fatigue to kind of reset. always having it on the back of your mind that as hard as this boss might be, the next one is gonna be harder is daunting for a lot of people. spreading it out is good for the health of a lot of guilds.
yeah That's what I appreciate about midraid walls too. wiping 300 times to painsmith and finally getting him down only to immediately have to start working on sylvanas, another boss that would take 300 attempts would be so disheartening. having a couple of easy Ws to de-stress and mentally reset after a really tough boss before getting to the final push is nice.
Yeah, we had a few hundred pulls on Painsmith, although I was benched on progress, but then I had to sub in and was there for the first kill (3 total pulls for me), the fact that it was followed up by Guardian (6 total pulls) made it extremely meme-worthy and raised spirits and morale again (memes like Guardian must be twice as hard since Painsmith only took 3 pulls and Guardian took 6, etc)
@itsDEEZY That is a valid point, but the problem for me is is when you dont actually get through the wall. If your group cant kill boss #6 (wall in this example) by a small margin, that most likely mean you are getting denied 1 or 2 kills of easier bosses every week. I think this is overall unfair and bad design, and it also means slower overall progression of gear for your team. The tradeoff isnt really worth it in my opinion. But CE players maybe will not suffer from this as much as semi-hardcore guilds or even casuals (on heroic). Btw love your content Deezy, keep it up :)
Shoutout to Taragrue. I think it's kinda fun to have a gimmick boss where you do crazy random things, and if there is a place to put that, it's first in the raid. Super annoying how you had to run around and collect the powers, but the boss itself was a pretty good design IMO.
I'm extremely partial to Heroic Ragnaros in Firelands being the greatest final boss of all time but its probably just my own personal experience and the people I was gaming with at the time.
Elisande deserved to be on this list. That fight was downright cool. Thematically, that fight was one of the best blizz has created, and yes I'm biased bc the Convergence of Fates was such an insane trinket.
I was honestly just out loud wondered how Opulence wasn't in your raid. Absolutely one of my favourite fights of all time, and spriests were broken AF on that fight and it was awesome owning the metres in my guild.
idk for me it's either Gul'dan or Argus as the best last boss. Both had a secret phase, both skipped their heroic phases that were shit i.e 1st phase on Gul'dan and 2nd intermission on Argus. Both had great dps checks in 1st and last phases. Both had flexible Bloodlust timings, both took about 300 attempts to down for an average CE guild. Just all around great bosses.
Also a huge fan of the scaling player buffs instead of constant fight nerfs, having the option to turn off the help switch allows casuals to do their thing while folks who like the challenge can still experience it. Leave achievements/FOS in to complete that content without the buff and you’re golden. 100% agree on Lei Shen at #1. I still remember my little 10 man clearing H back in the day and the amount of hype it was. I wish we can have another raid like ToT
If I were starting off a raid, I would want to include Blood-Queen Lana'thel. Her encounter while easy was just really unique. Another I would add would be Sapphiron from Naxxramas.
I feel like a first boss should be kinda fun to do, while being easy. A nice little warmup boss. For the second boss, i like it the most when they are just a little harder tuning-wise, but require you to play a clean and orderly strat. I think they did this great with Huntsman and Skolex. Both bosses were pretty easy, but you had to follow a rather strict pattern to kill them.
I always kind of thought for the optional bosses, they don't really need to be the same difficulty. I think it would be cool for the optional sections to do one boss hard, but not too hard, and one boss as the difficult option. So instead of nerfing one boss down to be the same difficulty, instead up the ilvl of the loot for the one that is more difficult or have a really good trinket or something that would provide a good advantage for later into the raid. The idea being that the time it takes to beat the raid for world first, should still even out or even be a little faster because they chose to do the difficult optional bosses and got items or an ability that makes defeating the next boss easier. This of course would break the linear difficulty idea.
I think my fave arrangement would be. 1,2 giving a nice lienar opening. Then go wide for 3,4 and 5 you can do in any order. Then come to 6 after youve beaten those 3. 7 8 and 9 are another choice, then 10, then 11 as the final boss
When i joined a new Guild in Legion, when Trial of Valor was current tier, they needed a proper tank heal for Odyn and Holy Pally is my staple. As soon as i came in we downed the boss quick. For Guarms first kill i was playing ret but Helya was a total blockade for us. 4 Weeks of heroic helya wipes and i had enough. I analyzed our wipes, wrote a strategy, voiced that and made a silly little FLASH animation for it. Next try on her i had them all watch it and on the second try she went down while i had to play prot, which i got NO experience with but it worked flawlessly raidwide. That whole raid has so many special memories to me.
I personally feel like the mid tier wall should almost always be in some way a ST Burn boss, and just make the other boss's harder in different ways, I think having that damage check before you get into the end boss's is important, also, there is nothing more epic IMO than having to kill a boss before it inevitably Kills you
I personally liked Immerseus as first boss, very nice setting with cool effects, 'healer' mechanic, wasnt hard but there was something happening and it wasnt just 1 phase training dummy, it also encouraged using parts of toolkit that are often left out during raid bosses, aoe ccs, displacements, offheals, etc.
TL;DR: i'd love to see a raidmode that randomizes what boss you get next. just pop into a random boss, kill it, get another random boss. if it needs a lore explanation: call it timeline shenanigans and let chromie send us there and GG. fun new raidmode for downtime etc. longer explanation: speaking of raid design,and mix and matching raid bosses for a 'best raid ever'. I'd love some sort of randomized gauntlet mode for raids. lorewise you can just explain it as some bronze dragonflight time shenanigans where someone/something is scrambling time like an egg (basically "chromie's fever dreams" xP) , leading to a mashup of bosses to fight. imagine going into nathria, only to notice that the left and right side hallways turn into portals after killing shriek, you pick one, and the whole raid get's TP'd into battle of dazar'alor where you fight jadefire masters, only to kill them and take the portal to get tped into the eternal palace to fight the radiance of azshara, to get tped into sanctum to have remnant of ner'zhul as a next fight... i'm currently using BfA/SL raids and bosses since more peeps might recognize them, but this can go back as far as they want, they could try to look at ahn'qiraj bosses. just check which ones are easiest to balance to current day gear/mechanics and put those in first, rest can come later. might not be the easiest thing to implement but sounds like it'd be a very fun addition which could re-utilize old content. other than balancing the fights, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to randomize the fights (and maybe adjusting for new player mechanics that could wreck boss mechanics, mostly looking at DH and now evoker with their crazy mobility that could destroy the way some mechs work) and loot could just be the same as other timewalking stuff. edit: cool additions could be having options like "raid builder" where the raidleader can pick the order of bosses. or a vote mechanic where you get a few options for which boss is next and the raid can vote for which one they wanna do.
TBF that's a good point on The Nine being potentially better fits for later in the raid. If you think about it, a basic bitch fight like Guardian of the First Ones (or w/e it's called) could quite easily swap with a more powered up version of The Nine.
Kinda nuts that Nighthold has honorable mentions for Krosus, Botanist, Star Augur, and Gul'dan, but none in the actual picks. So many good bosses but not good enough to break into the top 11.
H Lei Shen has to be my favorite of all time too. Was in Indestructible with Asmongold at the time, so top 100 US back then, and we put in a good 350-400 pulls on him. We cleared it in EXACTLY the same way. I was on my boomy at the time and it was everything at the end there. Bear form taunt with sprinting away to snag a few extra seconds, everything.
vault has to be the best layout imo, you start with a simple and calm boss, then you split into 2 branches with 2 bosses top branch and 3 bosses bottom branch, ending with a simple boss after the split and then razageth
Honestly I’m surprised uunat wasn’t there. That was a slapper of a fight. Honestly it’s a source of pride to have been one of the few to kill it due to how little of guilds did
I'd pick Abyssal Commander Sivara as well for first boss, although contemplated Stone Guardians, Protectors of the Endless, Conclave of the Wind, and Halfus | Huntsman Altimor, Xy'Moxx (Sepulcher), or Fallen Protectors for 2nd boss | Zek'Voss/Vectis, Radiance of Azshara, Renferal/Dragons of Nightmare, or Lei-Shi would make for a perfect third boss | Sha of Pride, Spirit Kings, Hellfire Council (4th boss better council position IMO) or Remnant of Ner'Zhul would make a perfect 4th boss (Mostly looking at Spirit Kings and Remnant); Megaera, Elegon, Gorefiend, Spellblade Auriel all perfect mid-raid walls | Durumu, Kor'Kron Dark Shaman, Primordius, Desolate Host, High Botanist, Star Augar, or King Rastakhan would all make for perfect 6th bosses | Za'Qul, Zul the Reborn, Vexiona, Ra'Den 2, Il'Gynoth, Stormwall Blockade, Grand Magistrix, Anduinn, Dark Animus (Hate Me 4 It), GE Shek'Zeer, Will of the Emporeor, Kel'Thuzad 3 all perfect 7th / 8th bosses | SLG, Siegecrafter, Carapace of N'Zoth, Sinestra (My Personal Pick) or Al'Akir all great penultimate bosses | Ragnaros (Firelands), Sha of Fear, Lei Shen, and Az'Shara, or Garrosh would be my ultimate final boss picks.
I was progging M Mannoroth back in the day with THD, and that has to be the hardest boss I think Ive ever seen, made worse that in subsequent weeks it would basically have to be re-progged since the boon to iLvls we got made us push way to fast and completely screw up the strat lol...had to be at least 500 pulls
As a response to the nerd screaming early thing… not quite but something similar. It was also on mythic archimonde. Someone scuffed a conduit positioning at sub 5% and I think the disappointment devolved in to a bunch of groaning and cursing from ~3% to sub 1% as our raid died. Thinking back, we probably could have gotten it if we hadn’t lost our composure haha. We got the kill the following raid night.
Not including Argus and Garrosh in the list of best endbosses is actually criminal! But yeah, Lei Shen is clear. It was also one of the bosses that had a huge difference in difficulty between 10man and 25man, while retaining its very hard difficulty on both of those.
If I had to lay out a raid, I think I'd do this layout 1 fork 2/4 left fork 3/5 right 6 BONUS 7 8 and 9 interchangeable 10 11 and for bosses... let's say 1. Horridon (Throne) 2. Tsulong (Terrace) 3. The Hivemind (Ny'a) 4. Socrethar the Eternal (HFC) 5. Zek'voz, Herald of N'zoth (Uldir) 6. Imonar, the Soulhunter (Antorus) OPTIONAL BOSS: The Restless Cabal (Crucible) 7. Mistress Sassz'ine (Tomb) 8. Grand Magistrix Elisande (Nighthold) 9. Mannoroth (HFC) 10. Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Siege) 11. N'zoth (Ny'a) So let's break down your raid experience: First you walk in and boom, Horridon. Then you have a two options: do you think your healing or cleave is more reliable. If you think your healers can carry, you go left to heal Tsulong and pray you survive the bastard-hard dots of Socrethar. If you think your cleave is better, you go right to face down Hivemind and Zek'voz. The paths meet up and you're faced with a competency/movement check in Imonar. After Imonar, you can go right into boss 7, or you can detour and do the optional boss (depends on if you trust your shadow priests/warlocks lol) Beat up the naga and her aquarium Now you can either go fight Mannoroth if you're feeling tough, or Elisande if you're worried about getting bodied Now it's Siegecrafter, or "how a hunter wiped our raid 17 times in a night" Finish it off with what I think is the hardest capstone boss. N'zoth rewards sustain, multidotting, burst single, and high-mobility, while also keeping you honest with the sanity bar. Probably not the best fight in the game, but I certainly loved doing it on mythic
I know Tarragrue is a bit special because of the anima powers and ensuing shananigans, but I honestly feel it´s high up on the list of the best first Bosses..... It was easy to kill if you turned on your monitor and didn´t go for troll powers, but if you really brainafked it it would still slap you silly.... The biggest downside was coordinating the powers and resetting them multiple times to get unstable forms.... If that part were more streamlined, I might even say top 3.
what would be cool is if they made a mario maker raid type thing, and/or a season like a timewalking mixup thing. but its tuned correctly not just PUMP DEAD loot. maybe blizzard does a blizzcon with this list and has the two best groups try it out. idk challange the best players
yes i loved it too (little sad heroic rag didnt get at least a Honorable mention!) but because you had access to all those bosses they all had to be more or less around the same difficulty which is bad for what max was trying to do.
So while Sanctum of Domination was for sure a bust as a raid, I do appreciate that it gave us (in my opinion) the greatest first boss in any raid ever, Tarragrue. Thinking back after Shadowlands ended, no other fight has given players the freedom to just have fun like that fight did with the anima powers. Hell, even the permanent debuff soaks became a fun mechanic when you made 1 person take nearly all of them alone. It's just unfortunate that Tarragrue was such a banger of a start for such a mid raid. Ah well, there's always a diamond in the rough somewhere.
Mechatorque was fun...UNLESS you were 'blessed' with several guildies who were either A)Color Blind or B)somehow managed to mixup a screw and a cog or spring. Not to mention the dinkleburg's who would put in their sequence and not tell you what yours was...sigh
Locks in Sunwell were most broken. 1 button shadow bolt spam that did twice the dps of everyone else. Had to wait 30 sec to start casting or a crit would pull aggro. In Throne of Thunder, demo locks were abusing the Unerring Vision trinket by snapshotting Doom refreshes so they always crit.
Maybe because I'm bad at the game but I've always enjoyed it when the first half of heroic/mythic is about as difficult as the last boss of the difficultly before. Then the 2nd half ramps up to whatever wall you want the last boss to be. When you are in a weaker guild and having to struggle to get even the first few kills it doesn't give you much to any chance to acquire enough movement and gear to be able to drop the difficulty before it causing you to waste way to much of your limited time on reclear instead of the interesting part progression. As it is I personally think once you beat a boss you shouldn't ever have to go back and kill the one before it for any reason but I know that will never happen.
I think there should always be a fun social boss that literally is just designed to destress and do friendly competition and basically almost 100% kill rate almost competing against your own teammates can win extra loot etc I also think if a group is hard ore failing it should open an alt boss to at least achieve some success but make this gated ahh probably none of this stuff will work hehe
I know you didn't raise Cutting Edge pre-Cata but do you really think that 0-Lights Yogg at current isn't at all comparable to ANY of the mythic level encounters ?
I WISH Kurog were more like Lei Shen. On Heroic you'll just be able to camp Earth totem the whole fight, on Mythic obviously things get trickier and you can't and I mean Heroic is still irrelevant but Fing A the mythic fights' gonna be so good and nostalgic for people who got to do Heroic 25 Lei Shen. People who did it on 10m won't really get the nostalgia because the fight was a joke but A
Immerseus from SoO was one of the most unique and fun first boss fights of a raid ever. Sad to not even have it mentioned :p (unpopular opinion though)
What's the difference between moving the mid-raid wall to the end though? Would it be worse to get half the raid done and being unable to progress further because of something like Painsmith, or is it worse to get everything done and be so close to the end boss, but never getting past the penultimate boss? Honestly that would be a bigger blow to morale imo.
Castle Nathria was a godly raid. Difficulty, thematics, and even the story and presentation. The only weak shit was Kael'thas, and it's offset by Council, Sludge, post-fix SLG, and Sire Denathrius. I think Council is one of the best designs, despite peoples' dislike of the Danse Macabre phases--which the fight was designed around for cooldowns and the haste buff.
Denathrius is my favorite final boss. Amazing mechanics, fun fight, amazing visuals and voice lines, and most importantly is a good length, enrage was like 10 minutes, I hate these 15+ minute bosses
For me it's either denathrius, garrosh or lei shen.
Absolutely! its even more impressive because that was the FIRST raid of the expansion and we all know what a let down bosses like Xavius were.
@@Moewenfels "A lot of bosses like Xavius" is such a dumb comment. Xavius is literally an outlier and there aren't a lot of bosses like him, at all.
@@billymays9296 Because BFAs old god Slug is such a good boss eh? x'D
@@Moewenfels Yeah it was actually a decent boss
Ahh Lei Shen. Our guild put in 600 attempts on him and had a 3% wipe the night before nerfs hit. Felt bad, but still love the memories of the epicness!
My guild killed this on attempt 297 at 11pm - last pull of the night... on the last raid of the week... on the last reset of the patch. My Cutting Edge achievement for him is one day before the release of 5.4. I remember logging off amped up and logging in the next morning to grab my legendary cloak before Siege of Org that night. Great times.
youtube editor went off on this one. the videos for each boss were great and wide painsmith had me chuckling
This video is absolute fire, Max. Personally, I think it might be my favorite you have ever made. Though there have been multiple tier lists I adore. Thanks for this!
Man Throne of Thunder was such a good raid - especially for the time. Remember, this is already 10 years ago and still some of the best unique boss design. No boss in that thing felt lame to me.
primordius was pretty lame tbf. I cant even remember what his mechanics were because he died in like 3 pulls.
@@Hephera Did you play a multidot or heavy burst class on that fight? This was heaven for multidotters and the damage bonus on the boss was crazy with all the buffs stacked on top of your cds. It was a fun mid-tier boss to blow apart, with many nice interactions for DPS classes. And to me it felt epic how all the slimes crawled towards the center of the room. I guess everyone remembers it differently.
Still have nightmares about progressing Dark Animus.
Also it had tons of rot damage for healers to pump through.
@@whighamz But you cannot deny it was very unique and engaging.
Ashvane, Thogar into Painsmith into Siegecrafter, Sludgefist is amazing. Coordination checks paired with dps checks centered around the most infamous mid-raid boss. And by making the raid 11 bosses you make it symmetrical, three bosses before the first split and three after the second split.
Just for the memes, what would have been the worst raid of all time?
This would be a banger video
Most bosses from Tomb of Soakgeras (with their raid-wide one-shots if ANYONE failed a boss, many of the SoD bosses that required you to hold DPS to push at certain timings. These specific bosses are because of their pre-nerf versions: SLG, Halondrus, Anduin, OBVIOUSLY Lords since it was only killable by Echo and Liquid until it was nerfed. That's mostly SL and Legion bosses.
Hellfire Assault, Immerseus, Rhyollith, Atramedes, Amber Shaper Unsok, Eonar, Will of the Emperor, Maiden of Vigilance, Dark Animus, Shadow Lord Iskar, Spine of Deathwing, Madness of Deathwing
And just like in Bastion of Twilight the last boss will only appear on Mythic mode, Kil'Jaeden
HA and Immerseus will be back to back, then you'll have a branching path to fight Atramedes or Rhyollith, which annoying gimmick fight will you choose first? Then Amber Shaper, Eonar and Will all in a straight line, then you'll have a 3 way branching path between Maiden, Dark Animus and Shadow Lord, then a straight shot to the end.
The goal of my raid is to annoy and bore the hell out of you with the first 7 bosses. Then Will comes up and your melee start complaining while your ranged are still in that bored slump, the goal is to foster discourse and rage with half your raid asleep and the other half starting to tilt then we hit you with 3 of the most spreadsheet, single person responsibility fights in the game, your melee are mad because the ranged are asleep and the ranged are still asleep and can't preform the actions required to not wipe the raid. Then we hit you with the 2 piece Deathwing combo and anybody still progressing in the raid on the highest difficulty will now have to progress on the guild breaker. The casual raiders all quit because they don't have 6 hours to clear the first half of the raid, your semi hardcore all quit because they couldn't get past Maiden, Dark Animus and Shadow Lord and now with a dwindling playerbase your bleeding edge players have nobody to recruit to progress on the hardest fight of all time.
@@rodinspfc End boss = Blackwater Behemoth
nah you're just putting gimmick bosses in your list that were meant to be a gimmick. Other than Madness of Deathwing which imo is the worst end boss of all time, I think fights like SLG which were intended to be regular fights that ended up being garbage tier are much worse than the gimmicks
I woulda loved a mention of the Klaxxi Paragons, I loved that fight just as much as I loved Blackfuse
Didn't have the same cinematic value as Blackfuse. That fight LOOKS cool.
30:30 explains what is expected to be in the raid... lol 😂 I love this guy.
Keep up the good work man
Seeing Blatty's POV on Lei Shen was a massive hit of nostalgia, I miss it
walls in the middle rather than back to back to back to back at the end are good because you get a bit of a mental reset. SOFO was rough because it was like Halondrus --> Anduin --> Rygelon with only Lords to kind of let you chill before --> Jailer
this lets you have a couple of easier bosses for peoples' fatigue to kind of reset. always having it on the back of your mind that as hard as this boss might be, the next one is gonna be harder is daunting for a lot of people. spreading it out is good for the health of a lot of guilds.
yeah That's what I appreciate about midraid walls too. wiping 300 times to painsmith and finally getting him down only to immediately have to start working on sylvanas, another boss that would take 300 attempts would be so disheartening. having a couple of easy Ws to de-stress and mentally reset after a really tough boss before getting to the final push is nice.
Yeah, we had a few hundred pulls on Painsmith, although I was benched on progress, but then I had to sub in and was there for the first kill (3 total pulls for me), the fact that it was followed up by Guardian (6 total pulls) made it extremely meme-worthy and raised spirits and morale again (memes like Guardian must be twice as hard since Painsmith only took 3 pulls and Guardian took 6, etc)
you wouldn't need a mental reset at all with linear difficulty.
sofo problem was having 4 end bosses due to different reasons
@itsDEEZY That is a valid point, but the problem for me is is when you dont actually get through the wall. If your group cant kill boss #6 (wall in this example) by a small margin, that most likely mean you are getting denied 1 or 2 kills of easier bosses every week.
I think this is overall unfair and bad design, and it also means slower overall progression of gear for your team. The tradeoff isnt really worth it in my opinion. But CE players maybe will not suffer from this as much as semi-hardcore guilds or even casuals (on heroic). Btw love your content Deezy, keep it up :)
Shoutout to Taragrue. I think it's kinda fun to have a gimmick boss where you do crazy random things, and if there is a place to put that, it's first in the raid. Super annoying how you had to run around and collect the powers, but the boss itself was a pretty good design IMO.
I'm extremely partial to Heroic Ragnaros in Firelands being the greatest final boss of all time but its probably just my own personal experience and the people I was gaming with at the time.
It for sure is an absolutely epic boss, regarding the challenge, the lore, and the artwork of it.
but his tiny legs though
This is some fun content! Good shit Max
Elisande deserved to be on this list. That fight was downright cool. Thematically, that fight was one of the best blizz has created, and yes I'm biased bc the Convergence of Fates was such an insane trinket.
Personally, Wrathion was easily my favorite entry boss.
Lmao wrathion is trash
@@Imanol. Good that everyone has a different opinion on thing :)
My favorite was probably the Dragon Soul one. Splitting the raid in two felt cool.
Wrathion is good, but Taloc is number 1, they literally made elevator boss.
@@jmendoza2007 agreed. He's still my favourite first boss. Still holding out hope for a very similar boss to him to return
I was honestly just out loud wondered how Opulence wasn't in your raid. Absolutely one of my favourite fights of all time, and spriests were broken AF on that fight and it was awesome owning the metres in my guild.
idk for me it's either Gul'dan or Argus as the best last boss. Both had a secret phase, both skipped their heroic phases that were shit i.e 1st phase on Gul'dan and 2nd intermission on Argus. Both had great dps checks in 1st and last phases. Both had flexible Bloodlust timings, both took about 300 attempts to down for an average CE guild. Just all around great bosses.
Also a huge fan of the scaling player buffs instead of constant fight nerfs, having the option to turn off the help switch allows casuals to do their thing while folks who like the challenge can still experience it. Leave achievements/FOS in to complete that content without the buff and you’re golden. 100% agree on Lei Shen at #1. I still remember my little 10 man clearing H back in the day and the amount of hype it was. I wish we can have another raid like ToT
If I were starting off a raid, I would want to include Blood-Queen Lana'thel. Her encounter while easy was just really unique. Another I would add would be Sapphiron from Naxxramas.
Thoughts on Iron Qon from Throne of Thunder? Multi-phase encounter with a hefty heal / raid cooldown check at the end.
I feel like a first boss should be kinda fun to do, while being easy. A nice little warmup boss. For the second boss, i like it the most when they are just a little harder tuning-wise, but require you to play a clean and orderly strat. I think they did this great with Huntsman and Skolex. Both bosses were pretty easy, but you had to follow a rather strict pattern to kill them.
I'm surprised you didn't even mention Dausagne, I thought it was an excellent boss with not too hard but fun mechanics!
My fav video you have done
I always kind of thought for the optional bosses, they don't really need to be the same difficulty. I think it would be cool for the optional sections to do one boss hard, but not too hard, and one boss as the difficult option. So instead of nerfing one boss down to be the same difficulty, instead up the ilvl of the loot for the one that is more difficult or have a really good trinket or something that would provide a good advantage for later into the raid. The idea being that the time it takes to beat the raid for world first, should still even out or even be a little faster because they chose to do the difficult optional bosses and got items or an ability that makes defeating the next boss easier. This of course would break the linear difficulty idea.
6:22 A video game bro's musings on choice & his unintentional discovery of fatalism.
Lei Shen is the GOAT for sure. Other honorable mentions for last or next to last are Denathrius, Paragons, Garrosh.
I think my fave arrangement would be. 1,2 giving a nice lienar opening. Then go wide for 3,4 and 5 you can do in any order. Then come to 6 after youve beaten those 3. 7 8 and 9 are another choice, then 10, then 11 as the final boss
When i joined a new Guild in Legion, when Trial of Valor was current tier, they needed a proper tank heal for Odyn and Holy Pally is my staple. As soon as i came in we downed the boss quick. For Guarms first kill i was playing ret but Helya was a total blockade for us.
4 Weeks of heroic helya wipes and i had enough. I analyzed our wipes, wrote a strategy, voiced that and made a silly little FLASH animation for it. Next try on her i had them all watch it and on the second try she went down while i had to play prot, which i got NO experience with but it worked flawlessly raidwide.
That whole raid has so many special memories to me.
Big mood on getting tongue-tied with the Nyalotha old god names
It'd be cool if after every raid Max went back to this to see if there are bosses he'd add in from the current raid tier.
Ra-Den from Nyalotha was my favorite fight of all time, sad to see it not on the list
I personally feel like the mid tier wall should almost always be in some way a ST Burn boss, and just make the other boss's harder in different ways, I think having that damage check before you get into the end boss's is important, also, there is nothing more epic IMO than having to kill a boss before it inevitably Kills you
19:18 You didn't have to include the pirate. But you did. I see you.
I also think Guardian druid should do 50% more damage.
I personally liked Immerseus as first boss, very nice setting with cool effects, 'healer' mechanic, wasnt hard but there was something happening and it wasnt just 1 phase training dummy, it also encouraged using parts of toolkit that are often left out during raid bosses, aoe ccs, displacements, offheals, etc.
I did a lot of 25HC Immerseus. Was one of the easier fights on heroic but was a huge healing encounter if you did the stacking strat.
TL;DR: i'd love to see a raidmode that randomizes what boss you get next. just pop into a random boss, kill it, get another random boss. if it needs a lore explanation: call it timeline shenanigans and let chromie send us there and GG. fun new raidmode for downtime etc.
longer explanation:
speaking of raid design,and mix and matching raid bosses for a 'best raid ever'. I'd love some sort of randomized gauntlet mode for raids. lorewise you can just explain it as some bronze dragonflight time shenanigans where someone/something is scrambling time like an egg (basically "chromie's fever dreams" xP) , leading to a mashup of bosses to fight.
imagine going into nathria, only to notice that the left and right side hallways turn into portals after killing shriek, you pick one, and the whole raid get's TP'd into battle of dazar'alor where you fight jadefire masters, only to kill them and take the portal to get tped into the eternal palace to fight the radiance of azshara, to get tped into sanctum to have remnant of ner'zhul as a next fight...
i'm currently using BfA/SL raids and bosses since more peeps might recognize them, but this can go back as far as they want, they could try to look at ahn'qiraj bosses. just check which ones are easiest to balance to current day gear/mechanics and put those in first, rest can come later.
might not be the easiest thing to implement but sounds like it'd be a very fun addition which could re-utilize old content. other than balancing the fights, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to randomize the fights (and maybe adjusting for new player mechanics that could wreck boss mechanics, mostly looking at DH and now evoker with their crazy mobility that could destroy the way some mechs work)
and loot could just be the same as other timewalking stuff.
edit: cool additions could be having options like "raid builder" where the raidleader can pick the order of bosses. or a vote mechanic where you get a few options for which boss is next and the raid can vote for which one they wanna do.
TBF that's a good point on The Nine being potentially better fits for later in the raid.
If you think about it, a basic bitch fight like Guardian of the First Ones (or w/e it's called) could quite easily swap with a more powered up version of The Nine.
Inserting the ugliest pic of Sivara and that giggle afterwards was the precise moment I clicked like 🤣🤣🤣
Kinda nuts that Nighthold has honorable mentions for Krosus, Botanist, Star Augur, and Gul'dan, but none in the actual picks. So many good bosses but not good enough to break into the top 11.
H Lei Shen has to be my favorite of all time too. Was in Indestructible with Asmongold at the time, so top 100 US back then, and we put in a good 350-400 pulls on him. We cleared it in EXACTLY the same way. I was on my boomy at the time and it was everything at the end there. Bear form taunt with sprinting away to snag a few extra seconds, everything.
vault has to be the best layout imo, you start with a simple and calm boss, then you split into 2 branches with 2 bosses top branch and 3 bosses bottom branch, ending with a simple boss after the split and then razageth
Nyalotha (wings layout) is banger imo.
Stock movie trailer music and nerd screams will never fail to get me giga-hyped. Launch me into the fucking sun
Honestly I’m surprised uunat wasn’t there. That was a slapper of a fight. Honestly it’s a source of pride to have been one of the few to kill it due to how little of guilds did
My 3-5 would be Norushen, Dark Shaman and Malkorak. Three of my favorite fights that were increasingly difficult on heroic.
Malkorok is absolutely banging. Most fun dps check boss ever imo, and it's often overlooked for these kinds of lists.
Not a single mention of elisande. i loved that fight
Dude you forgot about Taloc as a first boss, that one was sick :(
I'd pick Abyssal Commander Sivara as well for first boss, although contemplated Stone Guardians, Protectors of the Endless, Conclave of the Wind, and Halfus | Huntsman Altimor, Xy'Moxx (Sepulcher), or Fallen Protectors for 2nd boss | Zek'Voss/Vectis, Radiance of Azshara, Renferal/Dragons of Nightmare, or Lei-Shi would make for a perfect third boss | Sha of Pride, Spirit Kings, Hellfire Council (4th boss better council position IMO) or Remnant of Ner'Zhul would make a perfect 4th boss (Mostly looking at Spirit Kings and Remnant); Megaera, Elegon, Gorefiend, Spellblade Auriel all perfect mid-raid walls | Durumu, Kor'Kron Dark Shaman, Primordius, Desolate Host, High Botanist, Star Augar, or King Rastakhan would all make for perfect 6th bosses | Za'Qul, Zul the Reborn, Vexiona, Ra'Den 2, Il'Gynoth, Stormwall Blockade, Grand Magistrix, Anduinn, Dark Animus (Hate Me 4 It), GE Shek'Zeer, Will of the Emporeor, Kel'Thuzad 3 all perfect 7th / 8th bosses | SLG, Siegecrafter, Carapace of N'Zoth, Sinestra (My Personal Pick) or Al'Akir all great penultimate bosses | Ragnaros (Firelands), Sha of Fear, Lei Shen, and Az'Shara, or Garrosh would be my ultimate final boss picks.
I was progging M Mannoroth back in the day with THD, and that has to be the hardest boss I think Ive ever seen, made worse that in subsequent weeks it would basically have to be re-progged since the boon to iLvls we got made us push way to fast and completely screw up the strat lol...had to be at least 500 pulls
big agree, mid raid walls can be fun, but they are starting to seem like a relic of the past design wise imo.
(Single-minded melee trolling)
An entire raid of Patchwerk style bosses:
Vaelastrasz, Patchwerk, Supremus, Brutallus, Sludgefist, etc
As a response to the nerd screaming early thing… not quite but something similar. It was also on mythic archimonde. Someone scuffed a conduit positioning at sub 5% and I think the disappointment devolved in to a bunch of groaning and cursing from ~3% to sub 1% as our raid died. Thinking back, we probably could have gotten it if we hadn’t lost our composure haha. We got the kill the following raid night.
So the real question is when does blizzard make a special event where they putt all these encounters together for people to do.
Sadge that neither Garrosh nor Argus got a mention for last boss. Personally, my last spot pick would be between Denathrius, Lei Shen and Argus
Not including Argus and Garrosh in the list of best endbosses is actually criminal! But yeah, Lei Shen is clear. It was also one of the bosses that had a huge difference in difficulty between 10man and 25man, while retaining its very hard difficulty on both of those.
First Boss Dragonsoul was Perfect i Loved him
If I had to lay out a raid, I think I'd do this layout
1
fork 2/4 left
fork 3/5 right
6
BONUS
7
8 and 9 interchangeable
10
11
and for bosses... let's say
1. Horridon (Throne)
2. Tsulong (Terrace)
3. The Hivemind (Ny'a)
4. Socrethar the Eternal (HFC)
5. Zek'voz, Herald of N'zoth (Uldir)
6. Imonar, the Soulhunter (Antorus)
OPTIONAL BOSS: The Restless Cabal (Crucible)
7. Mistress Sassz'ine (Tomb)
8. Grand Magistrix Elisande (Nighthold)
9. Mannoroth (HFC)
10. Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Siege)
11. N'zoth (Ny'a)
So let's break down your raid experience:
First you walk in and boom, Horridon.
Then you have a two options: do you think your healing or cleave is more reliable.
If you think your healers can carry, you go left to heal Tsulong and pray you survive the bastard-hard dots of Socrethar.
If you think your cleave is better, you go right to face down Hivemind and Zek'voz.
The paths meet up and you're faced with a competency/movement check in Imonar.
After Imonar, you can go right into boss 7, or you can detour and do the optional boss (depends on if you trust your shadow priests/warlocks lol)
Beat up the naga and her aquarium
Now you can either go fight Mannoroth if you're feeling tough, or Elisande if you're worried about getting bodied
Now it's Siegecrafter, or "how a hunter wiped our raid 17 times in a night"
Finish it off with what I think is the hardest capstone boss. N'zoth rewards sustain, multidotting, burst single, and high-mobility, while also keeping you honest with the sanity bar. Probably not the best fight in the game, but I certainly loved doing it on mythic
I have been looking for that Imonar love recently, was chatting with some friends and they were making me feel delusional for loving that fight.
warlocks were insanely broken in SoO as well. nearly doubled the second highest dps
Should have added blackwing descent into a layout option
I know Tarragrue is a bit special because of the anima powers and ensuing shananigans, but I honestly feel it´s high up on the list of the best first Bosses..... It was easy to kill if you turned on your monitor and didn´t go for troll powers, but if you really brainafked it it would still slap you silly....
The biggest downside was coordinating the powers and resetting them multiple times to get unstable forms.... If that part were more streamlined, I might even say top 3.
there should be a raidboss where every 10% every player gets put into their own mists maze and has to solve it to get back to the boss again
we need a 4th and 5th boss with a hard mode where you do them together
I knew he was gonna pick lei shen b4 he even started because he loves it so much, but I'm sad garrosh didn't even get a mention.
Make a DF class tier list please ❤
I would add Mimiron hard mode to the list. It was epic and super hard at the time. It felt so great to beat after so many wipes.
Dragon Soul First 3 Bosses was Great
what would be cool is if they made a mario maker raid type thing, and/or a season like a timewalking mixup thing. but its tuned correctly not just PUMP DEAD loot. maybe blizzard does a blizzcon with this list and has the two best groups try it out. idk challange the best players
this was a good notification 💪
Am I the only one that really liked Fireland's layout? You can fight the first 5 bosses in any order.
yes i loved it too (little sad heroic rag didnt get at least a Honorable mention!) but because you had access to all those bosses they all had to be more or less around the same difficulty which is bad for what max was trying to do.
From a "secret mythic phase" stand point, i thought the final phase or archimonde felt pretty epic.
Last phase on Garrosh was also insane, especially with the Sha-corrupted obliterated Stormwind in the background.
@@FireSignd yesss that was great. Their mythic phases haven’t been as good. Jailers and nzoths didn’t feel as interesting
is that a team liquid hockey sweater?
So while Sanctum of Domination was for sure a bust as a raid, I do appreciate that it gave us (in my opinion) the greatest first boss in any raid ever, Tarragrue. Thinking back after Shadowlands ended, no other fight has given players the freedom to just have fun like that fight did with the anima powers. Hell, even the permanent debuff soaks became a fun mechanic when you made 1 person take nearly all of them alone.
It's just unfortunate that Tarragrue was such a banger of a start for such a mid raid. Ah well, there's always a diamond in the rough somewhere.
Opulence is my favorite raid bosses ever
no lich king or illidan or Kal'thas final boss?
I have an actual video of my guild nerd screaming and then wiping in throne of thunder at 0.0% lol
Let me guess, at each boss fight there is fall throught the floor?
Will never forget Lady Vashj progression. Such an epic fight.
Any chance of uploading your reaction to "Man in Cave" by internet historian video?
this but theyre allowed to retune bosses to the same extent they retuned last boss of VP for M+ season
Throne of thunder just a goated raid. And Mop was the high point of wow design for raid and class design
Brambles on Cenarius and the reflect damage being physical instantly deletes that fight as well designed.
We need a WIDEslidgefist and WIDEpainsmith emote
Isnt Garrosh mythic phase the coolest mythic phase tho?
I think Garothi Worldbreaker was an amazing first boss
Mechatorque was fun...UNLESS you were 'blessed' with several guildies who were either A)Color Blind or B)somehow managed to mixup a screw and a cog or spring. Not to mention the dinkleburg's who would put in their sequence and not tell you what yours was...sigh
Locks in Sunwell were most broken. 1 button shadow bolt spam that did twice the dps of everyone else. Had to wait 30 sec to start casting or a crit would pull aggro. In Throne of Thunder, demo locks were abusing the Unerring Vision trinket by snapshotting Doom refreshes so they always crit.
Maybe because I'm bad at the game but I've always enjoyed it when the first half of heroic/mythic is about as difficult as the last boss of the difficultly before. Then the 2nd half ramps up to whatever wall you want the last boss to be. When you are in a weaker guild and having to struggle to get even the first few kills it doesn't give you much to any chance to acquire enough movement and gear to be able to drop the difficulty before it causing you to waste way to much of your limited time on reclear instead of the interesting part progression. As it is I personally think once you beat a boss you shouldn't ever have to go back and kill the one before it for any reason but I know that will never happen.
I think there should always be a fun social boss that literally is just designed to destress and do friendly competition and basically almost 100% kill rate almost competing against your own teammates can win extra loot etc I also think if a group is hard ore failing it should open an alt boss to at least achieve some success but make this gated ahh probably none of this stuff will work hehe
I know you didn't raise Cutting Edge pre-Cata but do you really think that 0-Lights Yogg at current isn't at all comparable to ANY of the mythic level encounters ?
na, people will kill it in classic really fast you'lll see
LOOKS LIKE MEATS BACK ON THE MENU
best first boss is from legion, Tomb of Sargeras, Goroth (imo)
I WISH Kurog were more like Lei Shen. On Heroic you'll just be able to camp Earth totem the whole fight, on Mythic obviously things get trickier and you can't and I mean Heroic is still irrelevant but Fing A the mythic fights' gonna be so good and nostalgic for people who got to do Heroic 25 Lei Shen. People who did it on 10m won't really get the nostalgia because the fight was a joke but A
What I'd give to raid lei shen & garrosh again
Immerseus from SoO was one of the most unique and fun first boss fights of a raid ever. Sad to not even have it mentioned :p (unpopular opinion though)
No mention of Rag as last boss :s
What's the difference between moving the mid-raid wall to the end though? Would it be worse to get half the raid done and being unable to progress further because of something like Painsmith, or is it worse to get everything done and be so close to the end boss, but never getting past the penultimate boss? Honestly that would be a bigger blow to morale imo.
How crazy would it be if they did a patch where they put all these fights into one raid
Castle Nathria was a godly raid. Difficulty, thematics, and even the story and presentation. The only weak shit was Kael'thas, and it's offset by Council, Sludge, post-fix SLG, and Sire Denathrius. I think Council is one of the best designs, despite peoples' dislike of the Danse Macabre phases--which the fight was designed around for cooldowns and the haste buff.
CN would be my favorite raid of all time if Sunking and SLG didn't exist.
It's funny how people went from calling blast furnace trash to underrated to overrated.