Download OperaGX for free here! mtchm.de/c2v4b And for today's pinned comment question: what would _your_ talent be, if you were a student of Hope's Peak Academy?
I've gotta be totally honest, the main reason I knew Celeste was the killer was that she was suddenly getting lots of screen time instead of just a little bit here and there
That's how you can tell who's the killer in every trial it sorta takes the fun out of it when you can quickly figure out who it is which is just like you said the killers are always the characters who barely talk throughout the trails but all of the sudden have lots to say then that's when you know it's them
@@lameduck7569 yeah, 2 and V3 did a lot better at hiding the killers until near the end of the trial, (spoilers ahead) Mikan's a bad example because... well, we all know how 2-3 went. But Teruteru, Peko, Gundham, AND Chiaki/Nagito were good twists. And V3 really blew it out of the water; Kaede, Kirumi, Gonta and Kaito were well done, but in my opinion Korekiyo was the most brilliant BECAUSE he was so damn suspicious, which immediately throws off ANYONE who has done twelve of these damn trials so far
@@itsyaboitavino3273 tbh nanami was very easy to guess as. You know. Your assistant or antag dying last case isn't really a big surprise in murder mysteries but that makes it better. While playing, because of how nanami is treated, you are actively in denial the whole case
genocider jack is a horrible rep but also a secret serial killer in the cast who not only does no murder but also roasts everyone for there shitty murder is in fact, the funniest fucking premise for a character in a game like this.
She's my favourite character but I wish she wasn't such a horrific stereotype 😭😭 I swear if she was a DR2 or V3 character Syo/Jack would've been like herself from the beginning
im willing to look past the horrible rep since it was 2013 and most people dont understand did even to this day, and setting that aside shes just a really funny character
Fun thing about Junko's execution, I'd always assumed the hesitant drop was so she had time to feel despair over the possibility of not dying only for the block to kill her with that feeling
i always thought it was to give her enough time to get bored about the thought of the despair of dying! the way she frowns at the end made it seem like she had gotten bored of her own execution. which i think in that respect would have caused her the greatest despair, that not even the despair of death was enough for her
Ive never thought of that view point! I saw a post a while ago, idk where, but it said that Junko looked up at the crusher at the last second with an expression of confusion. Basically, she didn’t die in despair like she wanted, she died in confusion. And she isn’t even alive to feel the despair of not getting the ending she wanted.
I love that not only is Syo not the murderer in the trial, she's NEVER the murderer in any trial. A literal serial killer is better behaved than Mondo, Celestia or Leon.
Kinda makes sense that a professional serial killer would show better cool during an elimination killing game than people who’ve never seen blood and are suddenly at risk of death.
I love how everyone just kind of accepts it too. To be fair I don’t think Toko enjoyed her other personality and seems rather desperate to keep her contained. So I think if anything they feel sympathy for her at the very least
Celeste tends to be written off as "shallow" because she went for the million dollars... People. She's the ultimate GAMBLER. She found herself in game where the price for losing is her life, and she chose to risk it when she had a good hand (Hifumi was pretty much her pawn at that point) and the reward for winning was the highest (her life AND a ton of money). In a series where talents are a vital part of how the characters are designed, and yet somehow they are horribly underused - most characters don't get to use their skills, let alone it having any plot relevance - Celeste's gambling talent is one of the best-utilized across all three games.
I think it was just more so her plan since it was pretty obvious it was her. Not so much her motive. Sorry but that trial did not live up to what I expect from someone called the Ultimate Gambler.
I recommend you to watch ''Analysis of Celestia Ludenberg: game vs live action'' by Lila Naz Gunes, where she describes another way of Celestia's trial could have played out.
The trial, plot and case being bad pretty much settles it. There was potential, it being obviously celeste, how poorly she tried to hide it, the fact that every murderer gets alot of screentime before the murder occurs, really ruins case 3. I think celeste's breakdown and losing her fake accent was funny and entertaining. Seeing the criminals slowly break down was my fave part of trial 1 and 3. Overall it was just poorly written and under utilized celeste and no amount of fan writing csn fix that.
No matter what Celeste was and is shallow. I dont understand peoples defense of her or scratching to try and find something deeper. She is shallow, plain and simple.
I actually think Celeste was supposed to be easy to identify. All of her gambling stories revolve around her winning by luck, which isn't unheard of for DR, and the meticulous yet bad planning can be tracked as reasonably as her trying to win on her own merits rather than chance, since all her gambling prowess doesn't come from skill. She also becomes increasingly upset the more people ignore her curfew rule due to the lack of control. Celeste being the queen of lies is just a lie, which becomes more apparent when you look at her claim to be both Japanese and have a name like Celestia Ludenburg. Why would a master liar use such a bad lie?
Fair enough. Although conversely, I'd have to say if she was _intended_ to be easy to identify, that's rather poor design for a mystery game in any case lol. Especially for as drawn out as Chapter 3 is.
@@NezumiVA Not necessarily. I can understand the issues people have with the case since some of it is poorly communicated, but I found the engagement to come more from the absurdity of how extravagant her plan was. It does make me like her much more as a character since the clues are scattered and erratic, and that's how someone as desperately trying to hide their mental breakdown would set up their convoluted mystery. Narratively it's strength is characterizing just how terrified she is, so it's a mystery that's entirely characterizing a seemingly shallow character. It's probably my second - maybe 3td - favorite from DR1 primarily for Celeste and her weird dumb plan, but if the focus is about figuring out the solution (a fair perspective I think most people look for) then I understand why people don't like it.
@@NezumiVA Idk man i didn't find any of the trials particularly challenging. I thought the point was the investigation and than the trial is a fun (show your homework whit a few funky execution scenes). I don't think the murder mysteryes were the driving force of Danganronpa.
Telling a bad lie about something obvious like Celeste’s true name, doesn’t really prove she’s a bad liar. I think we can all agree about a certain character from DR3 being a good liar, but MOST of their lies are childishly obvious.
Jonathan Gilbert being obvious wouldn't be so bad if the game didn't have the pacing it did. I.e, your given all the pieces most of the time and just need to put them together. Heck, even the testimonies are given before the trial starts. (Which you have to reiterate for some reason) regardless, those things combined generally means you have to solve a mystery that you already know the answer to. Which, regardless of whether the mystery is actually good or not, is not a very thrilling experience. Honestly, the only exceptions to this really are chapter 5 for obvious reasons, and chapter 2 where the killer slips up but either is not as noticeable or it happens mid trial. I think that's the main reason why the later games are so much better regarded, because of the increasing complexity forcing you to solve a mystery to get to the culprit instead of solving one with a suspect already in mind.
Funfact! In the German dub for the anime, Monokuma is voiced by Santiago Ziesmer, the German voice of Spongebob. Which I think is a great choice to localize the way Doraemon's voice coming out of a murderous teddybear threw Japanese players off.
I love the different culture's interpretations of it. In English it's clearly supposed to be Mickey Mouse (and they went the extra mile by making Usami/Monomi sound like Minnie, but imo... the VAs were trying their best). But I'm imagining Tom Kenny (English Spongebob) voicing Monokuma down to the "daaa-aaaa-aaa-aaa" laugh instead of upupupupupu.
Despite Chapter 2 being a representation disaster, let's give what is due: I found it moving that Mondo not only understood Chihiro's situation, but went the extra mile trying to prevent the secret being revealed without their consent during the investigation (Because, you know, dead) before the corpse is taken out by Monokuma. He was very macho, had a very standard system of value and killed Chihiro... But ultimately respected the very thing that triggered his murderous rage.
That’s why I still had respect for Mondo after the fact, that he was willing to protect Chihiro’s identity. I agree that the chapter could have done better.
For me I always assumed the brief upward look Junko has in her final execution isn't one of hesitation but instead of confusion. Beause Junko was the ringleader for the Tragedy she craves despair for both her classmates and herself. As such, her execution is supposed to be a culmination of despair for her plan ending. That's why she's fine with both winning and loosing. Either way she gets to either plunge the world into despair or feel the despair of her plan being foiled. So when she's finally being executed she's enjoying it until that very last moment where the rhythmic crushing of the final execution appears to have missed a beat or to have been temporarily halted. It's in that moment where she's no longer in that state of despair but rather in a state of confusion as to why the execution isn't going as planned. As such, give that's the state she's crushed to death in, her execution deprives her of the despair she desperately craves. So by putting her in a momentary state of confusion for her last moments she's deprived of what she really wants. It's the more despairful ending for her because she doesn't get to partake in despair.
Someone mentioned this was a big brain move. If Junko was reincarnated as a ghost (Insert Yasahiro joke), then her soul would be like “DAMMIT! I didn’t die like I wanted… which is more despairful, YAY!” or something like that.
"ronpa" is rly close to "rumpa" to swedish ears, which is the swedish word for "butt" so you can imagine how much that joke was done to death over here. I once called out "DanganRUMPA!!!" to a Kiyotaka cosplayer and they went up to my face and gave me a long theatrical in-character glare. Good times~
One thing I always liked about Genocide Jack is how her presence creates this weird... well.... feeling of safety whenever they're around. Yes, Jack is a murderer, but she's a murderer you know has a very specific way of working, so she's unlikely to ever kill you herself.... but also she's someone nobody wants to mess with because she clearly could end you if you got too uppity. The one person with a confirmed body count is, paradoxically, also your best source of protection. At least, that's how it always felt to me. And I think UDG ultimately goes on to prove my point.
It helps that she’s relatively consistent. She has a set MO and won’t deviate from it, but she also knows that her refusal to do so means that if she were to kill someone she’d be caught instantly. So instead she sits back and enjoys the show
Totally! She's predictable in this exact situation in a way nobody else is, which is fascinating. Also personally, it brought me a lot of joy watching Togami become a bit less secure in his Main Character Syndrome whenever she jumped in.
Danganronpa 1 also has a TON of Japanese cultural commentary, too. A big part of the thematic resonance and depth in Danganronpa can be found in the students' talents and Monokuma's Theaters. For instance: part of Chapter 2's themes about masculinity come from its three principle targets: Ishimaru, who exerts his masculinity through authority and discipline, Owada exerts his through rebellion, violence, and personal branding, and Chihiro exerts it through self-improvement and reaching out to others. It's a pretty harsh critique of the yankii delinquent subculture that Owada is capable of buddying up with Ishimaru, the very embodiment of authority his entire self-identity opposes; but that his masculinity is so immediately threatened by meek little Chihiro that he not only kills Chihiro for it, but straight up blacks out, not even being able to bring himself to think about killing the one person who thought he was The Most Manly. Junko actually gets MOST of her characterization prior to her reveal through the Monokuma Theaters, during which time the player gradually gets a feel for the way the mastermind thinks about Japanese society, and especially Japanese capitalism. I'm especially fond of the pair of anecdotes where Monokuma relays a story about wanting to become a mascot, but getting pissed off at the suggestion that he should be a shrimp or a crab, and the "tech support lady" refusing to drop the issue. Imagining Junko Enoshima puzzling out her evil mascot and getting increasingly frustrated with an airheaded lady trying to suggest something subversive and niche is not only hilarious, but also a pretty great snapshot of Junko's hyper-cynical worldview. I also really dig Monokuma Theater 5, where Monokuma gives a mocking, bitter impersonation of Makoto Naegi's whole "I'm not special or unique" speech. It's clear that not only does Junko hate Makoto by the end of the game for inconveniencing her, she actually hates him from the start for seemingly embodying and being okay with the banal tedium of everyday life that Junko herself found so aggravating that she blew it all up. I kind of think Danganronpa 1, due to its development time and multiple revisions, really got chewed up enough for all of its themes and characters to grow new angles. I kind of think Danganronpa 1 is a much, much smarter game than SDR2 or NDRV3.
@@oriongold395 It's probably a topic someone else could cover in detail better than I could, but there's one other notable snippet in the Monokuma Theaters that I find fun and worth bringing up when discussion of Danganronpa comes up. In one of the MonoTheaters in DR1, the bear goes on a tirade about "hating videogames" because of an incident where he was hanging out with his only friend, and got controller-snubbed. Monokuma then felt superior about "analyzing and determining all the best strategies, just from watching" and resolved to never play the game. A few things stick out about this - first of all, like most of the rest of the Monokuma Theaters, it becomes darkly hilarious when you imagine Junko in Monokuma's place. Poor girl got invited to her only friend's house and got snubbed on the controller, probably because she was a girl. Second, Danganronpa supplemental media suggests Junko's real talent is "Analytics", being able to make extremely complex and intricate calculations, judgements, and predictions in just a glance. Junko very well *could* have been right about seeing the optimum strategies. However, she never got to test her theories, because she never got to play. And so she resolves to never play in the future, either. This basically encapsulates Junko's character - she sees flaws or issues in the world, and instead of participating in society to try to fix those flaws, decides that those flaws mean the whole thing is broken and should be thrown out, baby and bathwater alike. No "big" incident made Junko the way she is, she just lived a life where she didn't have a lot of friends and wasn't treated well socially, and her analytical brain forced her to get stuck in her head until she decided the only recourse was complete, bloody, horrific anarchy. I also think the Theater where Monokuma makes fun of the games industry canceling games right after announcing them is really funny - and Junko's consistent anti-capitalism is based
@@TroixixI am super super super super thankful that you just so happened to do an analysis of my favorite Monokuma Theater. And give yourself some credit, because this was absolutely spot on! Your mention of Junko's refusal to participate in society so as to improve it is an observation I also made after recently beating the game for a second playthrough, and wow...is it a level of tragedy that just brings her character together. Junko easily had the greatest potential among all the students, (verified by the sheer level of intelligence, ability, and overall consistency required of her plan) enough that it may be no exaggeration to suggest that she could've guided the world into prosperity. But because she'd been born under despair, the only outcome for her was one of irrecovable apathy. This makes her, in a way, the truly most unlucky student; born with everything and a literal want for nothing, leaving her forever unsatisfied and miserable enough to create a catastrophe she could've prevented.
i NEVER in a million years thought i would even CONSIDER liking junko as a character but your video shows her purpose in the story/the ideas behind her personality could actually be really amazing... i think i need to revisit the whole series with this new perspective 😳😳 PS: did you voice act all the characters when their lines were read? it was so well done
If you haven't already, I'd also _highly_ encourage reading the spinoff novel duology "Danganronpa Zero" to get more out of her character! It has no official translation, but it's very easy to find a very well done fan translation online, and it gives _great insight_ into Junko's character. Unlike several other spinoff novels, it's also written by Kodaka himself, meaning it's effectively 100% canon, even getting a nod in the DR3 anime's OVA episode. Edit: About the read lines, yup! Those were me. Thank you!
Honestly Sakura Oogami herself would be enough to make this game a classic. If I were an ultimate I think my talent would be Freelance artist, then I could do whatever I wanted as long as it was a form of art.
It would be an ultimate that sounds stupid and be easily underestimated, but it also one of those things that has skills that are useful and applicable well beyond the thing you're the ultimate at - meaning just because you aren't the ultimate in those areas doesn't mean you aren't a threat
I think he was more talking about the murder victims, since you have to spend a good bit of time examing their corpses. The executions are fair game for a lot of mutilation
@@livivindle9912 yeah that's true, it could have been his liquidated remains but into the coffin after the fact but it would make more sense if his body was actually intact
I find junko almost pitiable now that I see her title to be "someone who has felt the most despair possible" makes me wonder what she saw to get her to that point even as deplorable as she is
It's elaborated upon a bit in DR Zero, the novel. Her genuine talent is that of an Analyst, so she can basically predict things and people almost perfectly through her level of understanding and analysis. Therefore she becomes incredibly bored and almost dead to the world around her because she can predict practically anything - despair becomes her fixation simply because random, horrible acts of chance, violence, or misery are things that happen so unpredictably in our lives by contrast that even she can't always see them coming, and it actually stimulates her compared to everything else that she finds meaningless.
@@NezumiVAnow I’m imagining an alternate Danganrompa world which is constantly being destroyed and war torn, so Junko builds a hope academy because despair was boring to her.
I'd just like to say your fun little voice imitations of the characters are just so delightful. Not an exact replication of the voices yet it still captures them amazingly, just a little detail I loved.
Thank you! I like to think I can actually do pretty decent impressions of _some_ of the actual English cast, but since voiceover is something _else_ I do for a living, I just prefer to give my own little spin on the characters when I _do_ voice them for something. Makes it a little more fun than just trying to imitate what was already done, I guess!
@@NezumiVA true honestly i do voice acting for living as well and it’s fun imitating character voices or trying to copy them. Because It really shows the small details on how the English voice actors or voice actors in general found a voice they thought would represent the character for their audience as well as demographic. Etc
I personally think Sakura's suicide was obvious right at the very start of the investigation. The vomiting blood, sitting position and barricaded door were pieces of evidence that lead me to believe that Sakura killed herself.
Yeah in my first playthrough my two guesses were just straight-up suicide, or that she'd purposefully staged the case so that Hina could win the game and escape. I thought she might have swapped the drink she asked Hina to get her with the poison ahead of time, technically making Hina the one to kill her while also making it unlikely the case would have been solved in the class trial since even Hina herself wouldn't have known she was the killer. Either way Sakura having a hand in her own death felt very apparent to me at first glance. But it was still one of the more interesting cases and having multiple people think they killed her was unique, so I can forgive the solution being a little more obvious
@Flameclaw123 if it was this, I'm not sure how I'd feel. there's a case in DR2 that doesn't sit well with me for this exact reason. I don't think it's reasonable to count someone as the killer without intent, especially when it's someone else doing all the prep work and is clearly premeditated by someone else.
@@justcommoncurt Yeah that's fair, I get what you mean. I guess that's something that would have been left up to Monokuma to clarify in the rules one way or the other (but as you mention, that ruling would impact the DR2 case), but I can def see it coming off as messy to count something as a murder when there was no intention to kill
@@justcommoncurt Well, that’s exactly what differentiates Monokuma’s trials from regular ones. Because *another* case in DR2 argues this exact point... but only because they were never explained the “killer is the one why physically did it” rule. So they were still operating under the “killer is the one who comes up with it” logic.
The peaceful scene was what tipped me in the direction of it being a suicide. Every other murder up until then had been a very stressful scene, but Sakura's was framed as if it was peaceful. Where the others struggled for their life and died in fear, Sakura died with pride
I think one of the best counterpoints to Junko's philosophy is simply noting how much effort she had to put in to get other people to agree with her and it doesn't even work on the students
One thing I think people forget is that Byakyuya spells out that if anyone wants to “win” the killing game they need to take out the people that are capable of catching them. In the second trial he figures out that the two actual threats in the “game” are Kirigiri and Makoto. But he never actually attempts it.
Makes sense though. 2 threats means that if you kill one, the other will catch you out in the next trial. I’m sure Byakuya calculated that would be a no-win situation.
@@Vineshsien I completely forgot about that rule. If anyone would murder Kirigiri and get away with it though, it would be Byakuya and just barely. From the in-game writing, that girl would definitely hold her own in a fight, so using a good weapon would be worthwhile. Nonetheless, if I was Byakuya willing to kill those two, I’d go for Kirigiri first since risking her being alive after killing Makoto would be a much higher risk than the inverse case.
.Even if Junko claims not to fear death, in her final moments, she still clings to her teddy bear, like a scared child. she hugs Monomokuma like a shield. because that's what despair has always been for her. a shield protecting from the pain of being alive.
You know, I'm not even a danganronpa fan anymore and I really loved this video because holy shit does it go into depth with the things Spike did wrong and right and everything in between. After you go through all the games here, would you ever make Ace Attorney retrospectives? I would die to see that.
Something about this game and masafumi Takada's music messed with my brain chemistry in a way I cant place and its been lurking there in the back of my mind ever since, glad I got to walk through all that by watching this video. All the little trivia and interesting behind the scenes tidbits that contextualize a lot of the franchise's history and the different circles of fans it inspired has been very insightful and overall really solidified my appreciation and criticisms ive had with it. My first experience with it was through various letsplays and gradual interest built up over time by viewing covers of its anime original songs, I didn't even know it was a game at first but after watching the first trial in game I got hooked and needed to see what happend next. Loved the mainline games all the way through though it was a strained relationship at different points. Right around the time that SDR2 got officially translated i think was when I got in I think. And yes, The version of the game I watched was the Super HighSchool Level version. Also sakura oogami is the best character in the franchise.
Gosh the section of you dissecting Celeste as a character reminds me of myself towards Mondo. This franchise sprinkles pixie dust on these characters where even if there's very little happening narrative-wise with them you can weave paragraphs about their backgrounds and subtext and tragedy of their characters. It certainly has its flaws but when it hits, it *hits.*
I think what I will forever love about the Junko and Mukuro bait and switch is there's one tiny detail that goes unmentioned by the game but reveals that they're two different people. The game brushes it off with the photoshop excuse but never outright states it.
Junko Enoshima is the Senator Armstrong of anime visual novels. A charismatic yet despicable antagonist that shows up only in the final act to completely steal the spotlight. Honestly, I wish more pieces of media just had these. They're always so fun when they do appear.
@@pugman9672 I'm writing one and they are pretty hard to do especially personality wise ( one example is to not have their motive predictable or " cartoony " )
I think that this is the FIRST time I've seen discussion of chapter 2 in THH handled well in a retrospective like this. I usually see it go two ways, where people either refuse to acknowledge Chihiro's clumsy writing but love and understand Mondo's character, or they DO acknowledge Chihiro's clumsy writing, but opt to blame a lot of it on Mondo instead (which I find honestly super weird because he isn't, y'know. real. Writing issues should be blamed on the writers and Chihiro's writing being this bad was FAR from a self-aware decision, but I digress.). It honestly sucks because I adore both Chihiro and Mondo as characters, with Chihiro resonating with my ideas of gender expression that I've struggled with, and nearly everything about Mondo hitting super close to home in parallel to some of my own life experiences. There's honestly a really interesting message about toxic masculinity and idolization that they could've pushed into this chapter, had they handled Chihiro better and made THOSE ideas the focus instead. I could go waist deep into my analysis of the unexplored dynamic between these two, but I don't want to make this any wordier than it already is, especially since you said that this topic is more upsetting for you, so I just want to say thank you for doing both of these characters I love some actual justice instead of sugarcoating anything. Really and truly, thank you.
It really sucks this potential dynamic was cut short and was half assed at the end. I get that it's a killing game and killing games don't care about whatever arc someone is going through, but the fact so many potential character arcs throughout the series, this one included, get cut short for no apparent reason aside from "it's a killing game, people die" is just irritating to me.
@@lukebytes5366 Oh yeah, I totally agree with you there. Danganronpa has ALWAYS had the issue of either making characters fully recover from other character deaths by the next chapter, or killing the characters who are still in the process of mourning instead of giving them chances to develop. (I think Taka is a really good, and also the very first example of this problem, and that tied with Ishida only ever being used as a band-aid turned plot device doesn't help in the SLIGHTEST. (it also doesn't help that his backstory and character info is kinda trapped in FTE limbo, so you could potentially go through the entire game without knowing anything about him.)
@@lukebytes5366 This is why I’d be open to a slice of life Danganronpa anime! I know it’s definitely not the direction the series would go in aside from non-canon material (DrS and the Talent Development Plan.) Anyway, I think it’d be cool to see the DR1 class during their peaceful time at the school. We could get a lot of character development, see who becomes friends, have a lot of silly over the top moments, etc. I understand that some would find that boring, but I personally think the characters are interesting enough that it wouldn’t be. I do think the killing game does make things suspenseful and high-stakes (kinda the point of the series) but I’d gladly watch them just chilling haha!
I really loved Fujisaki as a character and found their story to be very touching and tragic. I say that as a cis person though - I can totally see why trans/genderqueer people would find it incredibly uncomfortable. Hell, even I was like "yeah, okay, that's enough" during the whole bout of everyone's ridiculous reactions to Fujisaki's gender reveal - even that DID make me uncomfortable - as well as everyone's insistence on instantly assuming Fujisaki identified as male (before it was confirmed, anyway). I feel if this chapter had toned the over the top reveal way the hell down, and handled Fujisaki's complex with more tact, it'd be easier to enjoy for everyone.
As someone who's gone back and forth on their gender identity, but come to ultimately feel that I align most closely (if not perfectly) with my assigned-at-birth gender, I feel like a Chihiro better-presented would resonate with me very deeply
As someone who's never really put any thought to my gender (since I personally do not feel like it is a personality-defining trait), I'm quite curious as to what is the issue in this trial. I understand the reactions being over the top might be a bit upsetting, but I think it can be easily overlooked due to the anime factor of it (since the characters overreact to pretty much every single big and/or small reveal), as well as culture shock, since (I believe) the whole gender identity movement is not as prominent in Japan, a country that is very conservative
I played THH for the first time in 2018, the most striking thing for me while playing it was getting to the classroom on the 5th floor and finding out that a massacre at a school was the thing that led to a total societal collapse, and, being an American in the year 2018, just kinda went "but for me, it was Tuesday." It's a good game on its own, but playing it in a country where school violence is something that our leadership has just kind of allowed to become normal adds an entire new level of existential horror to the experience.
No amount of fanart, cosplay, or even the cute girl I went out with were able to convince me to play this game. But strapping in and experiencing the first chapter with you - okay now I want to play.
Fans do get really weirdly defensive about the Chihiro part, often trying to deny the parallels to trans identity. It's weird! Glad you talked about it though!
I will say I am in the camp who does not see those problems around this case, but I also know I am not part of the camp to be getting deep into discussion about it.
It's like Naoto from Persona 4. She's literally written exactly like trans people in denial and her arc was so relatable for many trans people and they just pull a 180 at the end with "I'm not LGBT, I just do this because I'm denying my femininity" like that's such a slap in the face and just implies trans people are trans for attention. Like, I love GNC characters, but I'm tired of having a character written to be a great rep of GNC or trans people only for their stories to end with "I'm just doing it for attention, so now I'm going to not be trans anymore" like it's so disrespectful
I see the parallels about it. But I also see the problems with the technical writing as the trans girl head canon still almost implies Chihiro was bullied into being a trans girl Not to mention Chihiro insisting they’re a boy in school mode Then again this is likely just clumsy writing. If I’m being honest Chihiro has more parallels with a trans guy who doesn’t fit the stereotype of a guy than a trans girl. Or maybe it’s just personal bias because I’m a trans guy who isn’t overly masculine . But because of the investigation that kind of thing gets disproven. However looking on things now I can say that if Chihiro’s story got more to it. We may have been able to see a better line up with being a trans girl.
BUT and I just realized this I have a problem with how the class reacted after this death automatically assuming Chihiro was a guy because born a guy and just the reveal in general rubs me the wrong way looking back on it
@@nevergonnagiveyouup1180 Japan isn't too LGBT+ friendly, was even less when the game was in development. The trans references probably went over heads of people who weren't interested in the subject. I'd say we're lucky it didn't go full fanservice trap trope.
Speaking here as a diehard Sakura fan since 2013, another thing that Really Gets on my Nerves about CH2 is Sakura's characterization, specifically how she handled the Chihiro "reveal". Why did the person who had the MOST to suffer from being gender nonconforming have to have THE MOST disproportionate and inappropriate reaction??? Why was her perspective on strength as a woman sidelined entirely during the trial?? She could have been THE MOST empathetic to Chihiro out of the entire cast at that point, cuz she was literally THE ONLY person who could have offered insight into how much of a farce gender itself is!! But no, the game at that point (fully excluding CH4 in my rant here) has to shove her into the Girl Box, and into the Girl Box she stays. With all the harmful assumptions that go with it. Many thanks for insightful and passionate video, btw! 💗🌟 An obvious labor of love and passion!
I would've liked if Sakura had said like "But what does this prove? We do not truly know their own feelings on the matter" and then they used the toolkit or bathroom with no lock as evidence instead
Lmfao, I was the same! I was just like, "Huh, I guess fans just really liked her design and what little we got to see of her." until the reveal at the end!
Your comments about being able to criticize something that you enjoy is a breath of fresh air in this medium. I have too many friends who get offended when I say I love something but have some issues with it’s themes, Persona 4’s handling of Naoto is a huge example of this.
For some reason, the first time I got the bad ending of this game I had a genuine panic attack. It was so bad that I even skipped the true execution of chapter 5 and had no idea what was happening at the end of the final chapter
same thing happened to me when i was little and i got the joke bad ending in the gamecube game Custom Robo where if you say no enough times to the final quest it tells you the world was destroyed and i was like "NOOOO!!!!" and turned off the tv and cried
I'VE BEEN MAD ABOUT "TAKA" FOR YEARS! That boy would have you calling him Ishimaru-san until and unless you MARRIED him. Hina at least makes sense, she's very friendly like that, but Ishimaru?????
Yeah, it's VERY bizarre. I get that surnames/honorific stuff is just a factor that often gets lost in translation, but, not to be a weeb about it, it's one of my biggest pet peeves. In a language which _is_ so particular about how and why people refer to each other in certain ways, I feel like having it actively erased does genuinely sand off some of the character nuance that informs you on what they're like.
...i felt SO called out when you brought up homestuck. seriously i was one of those people, i kept up with the orenronen LP thru tumblr mirrors, so I’m basically a 10yo fan by now. as such i just want to thank you for this retrospective, it captures so many of my thoughts back when I first experienced DR (and today in 2022, when I was watching a LP of sdr2 for the first time in years). Some thoughts: -I agree with the SHSL note, maybe it’s nostalgia talking but I always thought SHSL captured this really zany, comical feel that the school itself has, like thinking seriously a school gathering all the most talented kids in one place and placing them into these unbending unchanging roles as “shsl idol” is so absurd it’s funny. I think a title like “ultimate” doesn’t quite catch that feeling of absurdity. -Speaking of, a big component of DR that captured me and I think a good chunk of others as well is that absurdist comedy, often veering into shock humor (for better or worse). DR exaggerates and overexaggerates and then overexaggerates those overexaggerations, and I think that can lead into very powerful narratives (for example, the narrative that talent is innate and hard work can not surpass raw talent is undone compellingly by just how grotesque hope’s peak treats its reserve course, how it locks its talented students into their talents despite some of them not liking those talents in the first place, etc. even junko’s insistence on despair works because the world DR is set in is already so entrenched into this ridiculous black and white thinking). That use of shock value and exaggeration can also lead to nasty, cruel, and really unjustifiable segments such as the narrative’s treatment of chihiro and fukawa as well, but i think that insistence on playing up the absurd, the ridiculous, the polarization, is why you can’t feel neutral about DR or even parts of DR. It’s usually either you hate it or you really enjoy it - i agree about naegi as a protagonist - while I enjoyed him in his own way when you compare him to other protags he tends to fall short. I tend to favor sdr2 over DR so that does bias me, but compared to someone like hinata, it felt like they really toned naegi down so that the player could have someone to project on, whereas hinata has a very solid identity outside of being the player character, if that makes sense - agreed with everything about ch2 and ch3, thank you for discussing ch2 especially in a really thoughtful and respectful manner. I won’t rehash discourse I was embroiled in in 2013 of all years but suffice to say DR has a real problem of punching down at marginalized and vulnerable identities/populations rather than punching UP - i was a fan of fukawa and especially the despair sisters, I really really enjoyed junko because she was the culmination of every single terrible awful thing a person could do and she enjoyed it, it was just a really new character type for me to see with a girl, like the hilarity of the most evil awful person in the world basically being a girlboss influencer is just incredible. on a more serious note, i hadn’t really read her as a defeatist before this video - if anything more of an accelerationist because she was so bored, she wanted to break the world and she created a terrorist cell and all to do that. she’s the ultimate (cough) condemnation of the world of hope’s peak, a person so blessed with analytical talent that it ruins her life, her relationships, even her very identity and personality, that she, enabled by the school’s resources, manages to end the world as we know it. to me it makes sense that the obsession with talent and success that hope’s peak symbolizes is the downfall of the world itself, made personal and concrete and real in a character like junko. some real biting commentary that is so much more fleshed out in sdr2 and dr0, and I think that powerful thematic element is one of the lasting impacts dr has had on me, where even 10 years from when I first experienced it, I still think back on it and appreciate it. DR can be so trashy and frustrating and downright unplayable and yet these parts really shined and made the game an overall positive experience for me - junko was so popular back in 2012-13, everyone was making fan art and cosplay even if they disliked her. She was That Girl. She and komaeda carried this franchise on their back in terms of thematic weight and even just memes and I’ll argue about this til the day I die. Legendary characters fr - thank you again for making these videos, I really appreciated your input as an old time fan, your inclusion of the making and history of dr, and your poignant reflections on each chapter and especially the game itself as an argument against giving up and giving in to the idea that the world is hopeless or that we cannot make it better. thinking of junko as a defeatist and naegi and friends ultimately triumphing over her attitude is really interesting. overall a very thoughtful and moving video :)
Chihiro's story, from a biased perspective, feels like it could win whether or not he discovered that he was female, male, etc. I consider him to be male not because he was biologically born with the genitalia but because the writing implies that he wanted to be considered male but couldn't due to the bullying and stigma. To me, this is a story regarding toxic masculinity. Chihiro felt he wasn't "strong" enough. He went to Mondo (the embodiment of what he believed he had to be like) for help to improve. But the kicker is that . . . Mondo was far from "strong". Mondo didn't believe in himself or the role he was placed in either. He believed that Chihiro was far stronger than he ever could be. Chihiro wanted to come out to his friends about his preferred gender and was building the confidence towards it in the midst of tragedy. I would think his story would resonate with the trans community whether he was trans or not and I feel like that is great as he was never said to be wrong for what he was doing. Everyone's reactions to the situation is influenced by the culture and the time period this game is set in. His classmates are trying to be respectful. They don't know absolutely everything. The sewing and toolkits, the bathroom regulations, and the inspection of Chihiro's body are all points that show that this story is set in a different place and time. If Chihiro is a boy, he's a boy. If Chihiro is a girl, she's a girl. If Chihiro is both or neither, then they're both or neither. Etc. What's most important to me, in this case, is that Chihiro is not considered to be less of a person. But on the matter of the derogatory term used towards Genocider Syo. Yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaah. Not cool, localisation team. Not cool. I like the way you tackle this game all throughout. The personality you put into it and the perspectives you give are profound and got me to ramble a bunch of unnecessary comments to myself regarding how much your points work thematically.
also are we just like.. not gonna ignore the fact alter ego in SDR2 literally refers to chihiro as "father?" it's literally an ai based off them, if anyone knew anyrhiny about what chihiro wanted to present as, I'd probably be alter ego
Junko Stan here and i wanna just say ur analysis on junko is soooooo good. I totally agree with you and ur thoughts on here but! Her "Motives" are sorta explained if you have read the Danganronpa Zero Novels + Danganronpa 3: The anime edition. For anyone who hasn't read the novels and doesn't care Spoilers! Junko's motives are simply boiled down to her Talent being her downfall, her actual true talent is Super High School Level Analytical Prowess. She can analyze people and predict their possible choice making life incredibly boring for her but despair is unpredictable (she does this in the anime multiple times lol). Death and Tragedy can strike at any moment and she lives off that. it's like a stimulation to her boring empty life. As it states in game she hurts her classmates and her own sister because it causes her despair and wants to see them succumb to it as well. Her whole morals and her actions are in entirety a very fucked up form of self-harm and I love her character for that. Junko's actions and motives are very hard to grasp but i find it somewhat human, to crave excitement, stimulation and a freedom from endless bordem (as someone w/hardcore ADHD). She's an incredibly interesting character who simply drove herself insane over time and at the end, grew bored with the one thing she craved. Junko enoshima my beloved
Oh no worries, I'm familiar with both Zero and Zetsubou-hen, lol. Just wanted to keep things constrained to what was currently available at the time of this game's release, when talking about it, is all. I don't think I'll do a standalone video about Zero in this retrospective, should it continue, but I'll definitely be going deeper into DR3 at a later point, and probably talk a bit _about_ Zero at that time.
I feel like an often overlooked part of how badly they fumbled Chihiro's death was despite knowing each other for weeks/months prior, everyone just miraculously flawlessly switches pronouns once Chihiro is outted. Which NEVER happens. Even if you choose to be intentionally disrespectful towards chihiro's identity and corpse, the memory alone should have had the other characters going "and she- wait no he-". It was also very odd how dismissive that Sakura was with Chihiro's gender when Sakura admits that she herself has struggled with people believing that she was a girl because of her muscular nature. Idk literally none of the way that trial got handled ever sat right with me. 😬
weeks/months? wasnt it just mere days? i do get your point about the quick pronoun switch, but i thought it was only mere days, i could be wrong though
I actually cook Chihiro the complete opposite way. I’ve had only minor gender identity issues (until I realized the whole thing was dumb and didn’t actually affect who I was so I stopped worrying) but I took it well. Chihiro is portrayed sympathetically, characterized as mentally strong and the resulting violence clearly comes from jealousy and insecurity. By not explicitly making Chihiro trans it made the idea of gender identity far more approachable for 9th grade me. It was technically my first real exposure to the idea along with my bi and eventually trans drum major that year. I personally found it a great introduction to this issue though I can see how it might be grating for others!
What a thorough recap and refreshing analysis! One of my favorite little bits about Sakura’s trial is the little piece of character development for Togami; in addition to it causing him to finally fully take a stand against Monokuma and start working with the rest of the crew, he also finally faces and realizes the consequences of not considering others’ feelings. Kirigiri really slaps him in the face (metaphorically, unlike Asahina lol) when she makes him realize that his refusal to think emotionally actually made his understanding of the case *weaker* and it’s just such a cool moment imo. Togami is one of my favorite characters because of those little moments where his armor cracks, which is funny considering I can’t stand people like him in real life.
That part you went into with Celeste is actually another great part about this game. Unlike the beta design, it's pretty linear, with very few chances in the story to make a choice, and even fewer chances where it effects anything. But who you spend your free time with can greatly change your bond with someone, especially when they are someone who is a victim or a murderer. Stuff you learn about them in these events can come back later in the story, such as Leon's events giving you a better idea on who he is and where his thoughts lie, helping you realize why he would accept Sayaka's offer or how tragic his execution is; Junko's revealing more about who she truly is and what she personally went through before certain twists; Chihiro's foreshadowing to not only his true self, but also with Alter Ego; why Hifumi would trust Celeste in the first place through some of the very few substance to his free time events, so on and so forth. Depending on who you spend your time with, your playthrough will ultimately be the same as any other's thanks to the linear nature of the game, but each player's experience is ultimately different.
Mukuro Ikusaba. The Sixteenth student hiding somewhere in this school. The one they call the Ultimate Despair... Watch out for her. (repeat ad infinitum) (Also, I'd like to note that I personally consider DR1 to only have 5 chapters; "chapter 6" is an extension of chapter 5, not its own thing, in my opinion)
as someone with did, im so glad you touched on how ableist the media is towards us with it 😭 we are normal and just as much as people as anyone else, and its always annoying when people view us as awful people or something for just having the disorder. so thank you for touching on it 🙏🏼
THE LEON THING WAS A TRANSLATION THING? oh that makes SO much more sense now! i have seen so many western lets players mock how stupid and easy this is, so knowing how it would've easily been missed in japan makes it better.
Its odd how many people dont pick up on that haha I immediately was like “well, if I saw numbers that actually spelt something in french backwards I would never pick up on it” XD
Hey, I really appreciate the kind of channels like yours rambling about whatever niche they take a profound interest in, if just for as niche, but dedicated and loyal a fanbase to ever see it. It’s something little a TH-camr can boast - talking about what they truly love and find compelling, unlimited in the purview of their curiosity. Don’t ever stop, dude, I love seeing you do what you love, it inspires me. It’s something I aspire to be able to do at some point. Hugs
As a cis male myself, I actually would be really interested in a video discussing why Chihiro and his role in chapter 2 made you so uncomfortable, I'd like to get to know the experiences that this story didn't do justice and what about it was done poorly. Often when it comes to the discourse surrounding Chihiro, it's always so much of a lack of understanding or wanting to understand from both sides of the argument that it's hard to really see the substance of either. As someone who was, for lack of a better phrase, not onboard with the whole "Chihiro is trans and that's final" debacle, I'm more interested in why you and others seem to gravitate towards that and what that means for you. And seeing someone on that side of the spectrum who actually understands the context here and simply and *respectfully* does not like what is presented, I'm more interested in your take on the whole thing quite a bit. I think it would make for an educational and thought-provoking topic, and you'd certainly have me convinced.
Hey! Thanks for leaving this comment in good faith, it's honestly refreshing. I apologize if my response is a bit long, but these are my thoughts. They're not entirely comprehensive, though, my brain is frankly mush after a long week and I'm sure other trans people would have more to add, lol. For me, it's almost entirely about the way it's addressed by the characters themselves. The comically exaggerated reactions, the screaming, the groping of Chihiro's body post-mortem - all of it feels very...invasive and grody, I suppose? I fully understand and acknowledge that the narrative never paints Chihiro as trans (merely as someone who _does_ identify male but chooses to escape a perception of weakness by appearing "female"), but it's less about the actual character and more the prerogative of the writers in how they handled said character, if that makes sense? This is a wildly different topic, but to sort of illustrate what I'm getting at - I'd say a comparable example would be something like, say...a show where _nudity_ gives female characters power. Now, some might argue the constant ogling of the girls' bodies is gross fanservice catering to objectification/etc. And some might argue in response that it has a canonical explanation for why, within the story's internal logic, it makes sense. And it does! Within the story's own logic. But the story's logic is, itself, dictated by the author who is writing it, who can choose to make it any way they want to, so then that leaves us with the conclusion that regardless of its functionality *within* the story, a person still had to write said story, and they can certainly get things very wrong, or make specific decisions based on stereotypes, misinformation, etc. A common stereotype of trans people in Japan is that they're all just gay men or crossdressers, for example. And rarely ever is their desire to actually be seen as their chosen identity acknowledged. Therefore, though I can't prove this was the DR team's thinking, it wouldn't at all be uncommon for a writer ignorant of trans issues to write a character who partakes in experiences/actions _very_ similar to the trans experience (dressing more comfortably, using different gendered pronouns than those they were assigned at birth, taking countermeasures to avoid being outed if they "pass" in most settings, etc.) but assume something incorrectly about that experience (the idea that trans women aren't genuine, or are lying to themselves to "avoid weakness" etc., something that has its own unfortunate implication considering they're equating femininity to weakness inherently). On top of all that, you have the characters immediately switch from saying "she" to "he" about Chihiro after the reveal, before they even know Chihiro's reasons for dressing femininely in the first place. At that point, they don't even know the backstory/that Chihiro still identifies as cis, because it doesn't show up until the chapter's end, but pointedly begin to refer to them _oppositely_ to how they generally seemed to be most comfortable, prior to this. It just seems, at the very least, extremely inconsiderate of them all, given that. Top it all off with some of the grodier implications/lines, like Monokuma "outing" someone against their will, Togami saying something about Chihiro's "female body" being "incongruous" (which is just...deeply upsetting to an actual trans audience, many of whom likely deal with dysphoria around their body), and the constant implication that Chihiro's body makes their gender *undeniably male* and it's all just very cruel seeming. Not to say that I expect much in the way of trans rep or sensibility from an anime game from 2010, granted, but it's still worth criticism imo, at least.
@@NezumiVA I just woke so I might be a little rambly here sorry 😅 there’s been quite a few Japanese games to my knowledge that have had characters that scratch the surface of trans stuff before doubling back on tired tropes and generally being creepy about those characters that I think could have been handled better if the writers had trans people on their team. It feels like a cis writer who has heard what a trans person is and then assumed everything else about them from their personal comprehension without checking any sources from the people they are trying to write about because “ooo what a quirky character trait they think they’re not the gender we see them as and in my godly unshakeable opinion *are*”. A character from persona 4 I won’t spoil goes through similar shit from their supposed friends, including the player character (oof and I hate when supposed role playing games only give me bigoted answers (or a “joke” supportive answer that the other characters laugh at me for) for that matter it’s like I’m seeing the writers biases on display). Anyways I love these games so it hurts all the more when it reminds me: “ah, yes. Bigots made this...” which is also how I feel about Harry Potter these days...
@@NezumiVA not to mention the way they die (that being the murderers reason for killing them) is so incredibly eerily similar to real life murders of trans people and the "trans panic" defense....
NezumiVA while I still think the allegories to trans people in this game is presumptuous as hell and that the only reason this came to be was because people expected the same representation V3 gave, I really understand your point unlike other people who make the same ones. While I get this is a killing game and that it doesn't really care about character arcs, honestly that's one of my main problems with the games, and problems like this could be so much better handled if they just didn't kill chihiro prematurely. I can brainstorm a scenario where instead of mondo breaking down, or at least not killing them, he could in some way make a point that strength doesn't just come from masculinity. Mondo himself is an example of this, he has many traits one would consider masculine but doesn't consider himself truly strong because he can't get over his mistake. Unlike chihiro who's at least trying to rectify their insecurity. This already fixes so many problems and unintentional messages that I know damn well the writers didn't intend. Not only that, but if continued, at least until chihiro's arc is actually finished. and even if she wasn't trans, I'd argue it would be an amazing symbol of gender identity, showing that you don't have to be feminine or masculine to be a real man or a real woman. (Which is an issue I see so much online) And there you have it, pretty much all the issues with that part solved with (what I assume to be) the original writers intent intact. Only difference is the limitation of having to kill someone in this game which kills half of the potentially good stuff in the series tbh.
@@NezumiVA (I'm not the original commenter so sorry to barge in but) That is a good explanation of the topic I feel like. I was always a part of "Chihiro is not trans" gang, but I haven't really thought about the trans-coding, and trans-adjasent things. And yeah, now that I think about it, even if Chihiro preferred to be identified as male, it was kinda insensitive of the cast to call Chihiro "him" before learning all the circumstances. Though... I guess it checks out with what you said about japan at that time? I mean, as insensitive as it is, it's in character for the cast, and for the writers. It's like a very old book with some spicy racist stuff, and as insensitive as it is, we can all agree that for the times, it was normal both for the author and the cast. But, about Chihiro. What I got from the game is: "Chihiro was bullied as male, so tried to hide as a female. However, Chihiro isn't comfortable being a female either, and doesn't really even connect with girls as friends that much. So then, Chihiro wants to come out as cis (which is pretty ironic) and grow as a person, saying that yeah, boys can be weak, but Chihiro will get better, and people won't laugh at him anymore!" So back when I played this game, with no idea about much LGBT stuff, that felt really empowering! I mean, I'm a cis guy, and I always had a bit of trouble with physical exercise, for various medical reasons. I remember being teased and such for it, and I remember looking at girls with jealousy, since they had to do waaaay less work, doing less than half of the exercises. I thought about how nice it must be to be a girl. And our teacher was all manly and masculine, telling guys what they should do and what they shouldn't do, and... I dunno, I just really connected with Chihiro because of that. I could relate to those thoughts and to some of those struggles, just like Trans people identify with some trans characters. So, I hope my perspective kinda helps you see while people try to justify stuff in chapter 2. I mean, I don't like it when those people get agressive, and I don't fully share their worldview, but... Yeah.
ADORED this video! i'm still active in the dr fandom and the shit takes are insurmountable. this video was like a breath of fresh air, although i wish there were more topics you touched on- like the colourism and the societal context, particularly the criticism of the japanese educational system. i'm very much looking forward to what you have to say about sdr2! i've been binging ur videos all day, thank you for your wonderful thoughts- also the little voices u did were great. keep it up queen
That's definitely fair! Fwiw, the SDR2 script definitely tackles the educational system stuff a bit more! Discussions of colorism in particular will become very relevant when I hit V3 so I'll definitely try to bring it up more broadly about the series when I get there. Thank you for the feedback!
Yeah I noticed the cast got whiter as the series went on (including Toko getting a little whiter between 1 and UDG), and it feels like there are some cultural things I don’t get as an uneducated Briton
I get the SHSL title, but Ultimate just sounds so much to the point, and gives much more of an appropriate vibe to how powerful these characters are, I mean most are not just impressive for a highschool level, they are already the best in the world or close to it, sakura and celeste never losing come to mind, toko being a best seller, nekomaru training world class athletes. They are far beyond just a high school level, so to me, the SHSL title almost undermines their abilities, so I prefer the Ultimate title since it feels much more appropriate, even though I was a fan since the fan translation days. Also man, the nicknames are pretty cute lol. Long rant about trial 3 and people who write it off, feel free to skip until TLDR lol : Id also like to point out for chapter 3, Ive seen a lot of reactions to it ,and it's always one of the 2, either, super early guess and saying how it's super obvious and easy or, completely having no clue what's going on until almost the end. I honestly think that while yes, you can guess the killer early, the mystery there is not that terrible or easy, it's just, made in such a way, where some people guess it early because of some context clues. but for those who do not, the trial takes them for a crazy ride because of how many red herrings and things there are in that trial. Just because you guessed it early and didn't enjoy it because of that, does not mean that happened for everyone, I really enjoyed seeing the confused players go through this trial, and slowly pieces it together. as for the pacing, this is the sort of thing you will never get everyone with, coz while its slow for those who know, it's often kinda fast and jumpy for those confused who are trying to follow along, it's just something you can say about any trail if you already figured it out. and Ive seen players who say it's too fast because they have to go through a lot of points quite fast, and early on it can be hard to keep everything in mind and connect it all. Ive seen some players say the same thing about chapter 2 and 4 of this game and chapter 1/4/5 of the second game which is quite crazy for me, but that's just how some people are, for them it's too slow, coz they just wanna go in there, point the finger at X and get it over and done with coz they already figured it out. So I really disagree with the, "it's really obvious and therefore way too slow for me" coz well, ive seen a ton of people not get it and the pacing for them was good, if it was any faster, it would lose a lot of these players. And sure overexplaining might be a bit boring for those in the know, but you never wanna completely lose people in these sort of games coz you glossed over something, where they completely don't know whats going on, which well, even with the over explanation, still happens, think like 30% of LP's get stuck on some major part and just get very confused to the point they call bullshit on it, anderson with the sprinklers come to mind, but there is a ton of others too. just as ive seen a some people complain that every case in the first 2 games is too basic and easy. also, while it's true that celeste acts weirdly at the start of the case, it does play into her character, she constantly said before that that she would adapt and do anything to survive, so her suddenly grovelling at her killers foot is literally that ideology she mentioned throughout the game, it's just that this is the first time we see it in action, and so a lot of people think of it weird, when if you analyse deeper, it's honestly not weird at all for her, I think if there was another scene or two with her doing this sort of adaption beforehand, this would be seen by most as perfectly inline with her. but instead people really just react off their instinct and think "oh this is not how she normally reacts, something must be up". Honestly, if they slightly patched this up in one way or another, I think the case would be one of the top in the games, instead, for me now, it's just a decent case that I enjoy. lastly, id like to point out that even in cases where you know who the killer is, your job is still to prove it and get everyone to agree to that, which is where a lot of fun comes from, both DR and AA games have cases where you know the killers AA final case is for example mega obvious, but the whole fighting a hard opponent and proving their crime part is what really is enjoyable about those sort of cases. so I think with a strong opponent like celeste, who sends you off the truth multiple times, is also a good quality, and I think it can stand like that as well if a player already knows the killer, and ive seen players like this too, where they knew the who, but not the how, and took great pleasure from fighting and beating celeste in this "combat". so TLDR : 3rd case imo is not as bad as some people like to say, at least from my observations over the years of different lets players playing the case from many different perspectives, all the way from immediately knowing the culprit to not understanding anything until the end of the trial. for me the weakest case is trial 5, it's a made up trail essentially, and it just... does not work that well, at least case 6 works very well to cover it up, otherwise, Love cases 2,4,6, enjoy 1,3 with 5 being the only meh one for me. ofc I can't go super in detail with every trial this comment is already too long, but ill just say something about every trial. Case 1 is a solid starting case, as mentioned above, knowing the killer does not spoil a case for me, and as a starting case it works well, similarly to early cases in AA where they specifically go out of the way to show you the killers. Case 2, I guess I see the problematic aspects, but I like to take it as face value, and what the original intention was, and it was meant to tackle a real issue in Japanese culture, and it did that, sure it doesn't fair well here, but it's out of its culture and we don't have the same strict norms around gender norms as japan does/did, and oh boy does japan have em, this was very controversial/ "brave" when it came out in 2010 in japan, for fighting against the whole men gotta be strong and women gotta be meek, I mean in that culture even saying a man could be weak and emotional was seen as crazy, so showing how that whole culture drove a nice character like chihiro into hiding their true self because they essentially didn't think they were worthy of being a man, looking at mondo for being the "true man", which in the end, ends up with chihiro standing up to his issues while mondo could not. really flipping the whole gender norms on its head. too bad it didn't really translate well over cultures and time and is now just seen as insensitive and crude as it was a legitimate step forward for Japanese culture. But I understand how it looks now to people, so I won't say your wrong to feel like you feel. apart from that, what I really love about this case in gencodier, one of the best DR characters ever, and Byakuyas hard core meddling with the trial, it really puts him up as that smart asshole who will do anything he wants, and him setting up this mystery just to track down who is smart enough to solve it, pinning the MC as a head target, shows how smart and villainous he can be. that alone makes it maybe my second favourite trial of the game, only short to 6. Case 3, went over already in detail, but I enjoy it for what it is, not super strong, but I like the setup and pay off. you running around while the murder is actively happening, and seeing parts of it with your own eyes are a great part as well. Case 4, is really solid too, so many twists, a lot of story payoff, togami gets some good character building there. and it plays out very well. case 5, is kinda a mess, I suppose it's meant to be a mess, but its just not very enjoyable apart from the ending that makes you pick, that's the only really solid point, and it's a strong one, with the wrong ending being so wild and wtf, that it's amazing in its own way. making players pick the ending, even if the bad ending is easily reversible, is nice. and I think that is the one saving grace of it. Case 6 and the whole ending, is just mindblowing, taking things from literally every part of the game, and building it all into one giant mystery, that is crazy and wacky and amazing. The whole ending twist ive seen often be said as just jumping the shark and making no sense, but I love it, and ties into the game the whole aspect of ultimate despair and ultimate hope very well, as despair upon despair layer themselves on the characters, with a horror I don't think ive seen anywhere else. like the whole truth about behind the killings and the situation at the school is so horrendous, it's truly the ultimate despair, and the characters overcoming it, is truly ultimate hope, sure it's cheesy and overplayed, but I love my danganronpa cheesy and overplayed, so it's perfect for me.
I hate the "ultimate" title lmao. Quite opposite to you, no character to me seemed that their abilities went beyond that of a regular expert on their field. SHSL I think just fits the themes Danganronpa has of the failures of the school system better and I think undermines the biggest tragedy of the series, that these are just teenagers trying to make their way in life, they may be icredibly talented but they aren't superheroes. They show promise because they have so much more potential and possibility for growth then what they currently embody, and that is why they are the perfect torture victims for someone like Junko who means to show them that in the face of an unpredictable world that doesn't really matter. The title sounds kinda childish and it kinda reminds me of how a high schooler who is caught up in their talents might define themselves as, both in people who are insecure as they think that's all their worth or the people who think they'll one day come to hold the world in the palm of their hand because of it, but what Danganronpa makes the point of proving is that what should matter is the good faith you have in yourself and those around you in spite of anything the outside world might throw at you both good and bad, that you shouldn't rely on labels or expectations like those because when your world comes crashing down and nothing makes sense that's all that will really matter to move you forward
my gripe with how fujisaki was handled is that there were two easy clues they could have used to determine fujisaki was registered as male in the school that didn't include the gross "examination" of his corpse. in chapter 1 they make a point to emphasize how only the girls had locking bathrooms, and how the boys got a toolkit from monokuma while the girls got a sewing kit. both of those things even played a part in case 1. all they had to do was have the kids investigate fujisaki's room and discover these things and then they can continue the trial knowing that his monopad likely also registered him as male, so he could therefore get into the men's changing room. but nope. they HAD to include a scene where the students "investigate" his body so the writers could be like "dont worry guys! hes not trans! hes a cis guy all along and he has cis guy parts! we dont do trans here!" it just feels gross
Having read this and thought about it, it makes me wonder if Byakuya snagged Chihiro's room key pre-emptively, to avoid checking the room and its contents and make the trial more interesting. Discovering that Chihiro's room was registered as male would make the trial go by way too quickly otherwise. I don't really think he expected Kyoko to just ... tell Sakura to do that. It's still kinda creepy, and I don't think it sits all that well with me these days, but it would be in-line with the story as it was happening.
@@thewrathofrevan5999 remember byakuya also didn't know chihiro was male. his surprise at that fact was part of why makoto stopped suspecting him. he saw mondo coming out of the girl's change room so he assumed chihiro was female until the reveal. its just no one even mentioned checking chihiros room in the investigation so i feel like it was just something the writers forgot about. investigating his room would have given away that twist, but we could always have kyoko do it and reveal it at the trial. like give makoto a tool kit and be like "i found this in chihiros room." or even have mondo take the tool kit but have kyoko discover the bathroom door. and make that a clue. having kyoko take everyone on a field trip to the change room in the middle of the trial also breaks up the flow a little i think
@@pandoratheexplorer8211 Aren't the rooms locked up anyway? and wasn't it more simple to just examine the body rather than checking the unreliable bathroom doors that already got misinterpreted in chapter 1? Although I agree that checking the ID would've been easier, but they wanted to show how kirigiri conducts her investigations and how weird it is for a high school student
@@sasir2013 remember they were able to check maizonos room during the first investigation so the victims rooms are still accessible before the trial. I dont remember if they get locked after the trial or if thats just fanon. Ye leon did mix up the door in case 1 but he was panicked after someone tried to kill him if the students take a few minutes to check out fujisakis door during an investigation they would be able to tell theres no lock easily. Its not like anyone but naegi have a jammed door to our knowledge Also i maintain kirigiri taking the class on a field trip in the middle of the trial breaks up the pacing. Even if other students were too amatur to investigate fujisakis room we can always have kirigiri go there offscreen and surprise us with the info on the sewing kit/door during the trial. We already established she was weird by showing her inspect the big dent in fujisakis head and future instances (kirigiri finding a note in yamadas pants in ch 3) also reinforce this. so i would rather sacrifice this one gross scene since that characterization is already done later in the game
I've been following you for some time but I haven't ever really interacted openly about how much I love your content- from the time you put into the layout of your work and the writing that in it's way creates a compelling form of storytelling is really incredible. I think the way you described the way danganronpa feels, specifically how it was summarized towards the end, was really well done, I haven't ever been able to put my finger on or explain properly how i feel not just about the first game but the series as a whole in that it has a TON of issues, but it still has so many pros to it's cons that it keeps you coming back. I also appreciate hearing a video essay talk about not just the chihiro problem but the discomfort around how they introduced Jack, it's something I think a lot of fans tend to avoid talking about considering the arguments it starts, coming from another trans person it was something I really needed to hear spoken out loud and I appreciate you a lot for this. With a series so big and based a lot on how people remember it vs how it has aged, it's cool to hear from someone who has a history of loving it as well as recently playing it being able to recognize it's problems and not blindly adoring it. I think this video had a lot of love put into it and it's easy to tell that it's something you'd been wanting to talk about for some time and I believe a lot of people here were happy to hear it. Thank you for this video and I can't wait to see more
Junko as a villain has always been amazing even kodaka admits he thought giving her a backstory would just be lame and he wanted the audience to have no sympathy for her.
Yeah, I hate it when I criticize something I love for handling lgbtq stuff poorly and people take it as me hating it or the characters or whatever. Chihiro is one of my favorite dr1 characters, but the gender thing wasn’t handled very well. The people who come out of the woodwork when you criticize it are the same type of people who get mad when persona 4 and its poor handling of its queer characters is brought up. People need to get that a game can be good but still have serious flaws.
Wow this was so beautiful. There’s an art to retelling a story through words and visuals and you’ve mastered that to make me and the rest of your audience feel something. Like just by the sound of your charming voice we can tell how important and emotional this game is. Admittedly I’ve never had a strong attachment to this game, I respected it for being the first dr game and I’ve never even played it fully, but that changed after this video. It’s a lot more solid than I thought, minus some grievances I had in chapter 2 as well. Your take on Junko was especially cool and not one I’ve heard many people talk about. Spectacular job Nezumi, I’m so glad I’m subscribed to you cause you’re awesome!
I think all your criticism for case 2 is very reasonable. It’s kinda sad for a story with so many great parts to have the kind of blunder that can make people feel that way, hopefully unintentionally
I really, really appreciate that the ultimate (lol) takeaway of this retrospective of the game is about the hope that it embodies. It's grim, it's dark, it's twisted, and it's bleak in places-- the presence of the one blood-soaked room being a monument to all that (especially when you know what transpired there)-- but the point is that even average, everyday people can hold onto hope even DESPITE the odds against it. The point of hope is that it flourishes FROM despair, and the uncertainty of what the future might hold. In a way I feel like that ties into the poignancy of Hadestown, in the Road To Hell reprise, where Hermes sings sadly, then defiantly, "It's a sad song.... but we sing it anyway". Then going on to explain that we tell sad stories and sing sad songs because there's a part of us that, in the moment, can imagine a happy outcome for the characters, even KNOWING that the end is sad. That in the midst of it, we can dream of a better outcome, of a better world. That human nature is to illogically believe that we can somehow change the outcome that was already predetermined. And that sometimes, even when there's a sad ending, that hope can still change things for the better. The kids walking out of the school is the dream of a better outcome than Junko insisted was always waiting for them. And that's the point. We don't play the game to see what happened to the outside world, but to see how these kids survive, how they fight against the encroaching despair, how they change their fate despite the odds against them, and how they accomplish what should have been impossible. This game is important to me, too, for a lot of the reasons you express here. It wasn't formative for me- I was an adult by the time it came out and ESPECIALLY by the time I discovered it (through that same SA Let's Play, even!)- but it embodies one of the things I firmly believe about the world. And I think you captured The Point(tm) here perfectly. Thank you for this retrospective!
Fun personal anecdote: as a DID system who became fans of the DR games during highschool, our host made a self insert character for herself in the universe (before she was aware of the rest of us.) Coming up with the character's backstory led to our host giving said character DID, only to then go, "oh, i guess this isn't really a self insert character anymore since she has a disorder that I lack. Whoops!" ...so, a few years later, when our host become aware of the system she belongs to... she had a major "ohhh my god" moment in regards to that character lmao
I actually played this for the first time thanks to that Switch port, having tons of interest in it and the series after watching the Game Grumps play it. It was so....wacky and colorful, yet cruel and weird that it had my attention out of the gate. Playing it, even if I knew how it was going to play out, was extremely enjoyable. The characters are honestly all great and varied, letting you really fall for your favorites and either be devastated or sighing in relief for what ends up happening to them. Their voice acting is no slouch either, even in English. Celestia's break down in Trial 3 genuinely impressed me with how hard that woman was going for what she could have just seen as a "anime visual novel" game. Trial 2 and 4 are my personal favorites being the most compelling to me, especially with Sakura's relationship with Aoi and reading her real suicide note in 4. It actually got me and made me sad for her. Edit: Just to clarify, I completely get the discomfort of how Chihiro was handled in Chapter 2. Even not having experienced anything like that myself, it's very clear to even me how poorly they were handling it. Even the almost blunt IMMEDIATE pronoun change from everyone just seemed...weird and off. You shouldn't be ashamed of not liking it, because you're right to not like it. Its really shitty. That aspect isn't want grabbed me about the trial, Genocider, Byakuya, and Mondo's eventual reveal were. I'm currently starting the second game, and I'm interested how I'll feel about it by the end.
@@misatoholic I actually just beat it over New Years so I've actually been thinking about this. Right now at least, I feel like I like both games equally, the difference being how I like them. I think DR 1 is a much more consistent game overall, but doesn't reach the heights it could, where as DR 2 reaches and sometimes grabs at those heights, but not without some issues along the way, if that makes sense. To give an example, I just replayed the third trial last night. Mikan's breakdown, Nagito's sarcasm, and Gundham...well...being Gundham were great and amazingly performed! This on top of mini games that felt more involved kept me invested in the trial. However....1) They killed off Ibuki, a really likeable funny character for seemingly no other reason than shock. Like she doesn't even have a strong connection to Mikan or something. 2) the logistics of the crime immediately crumble under scrutiny. Mikan somehow getting to the music venue the same time as Hajime despite being on the second floor of the hospital...and running into Fuyuhiko... And 3) the crime itself just feels...messy. Which makes sense for Mikan I guess but it means narratively it's not that interesting to follow. In DR1's 3rd Trial I could at least follow it and the confusion made sense. This one felt more sloppy, even from a writing standpoint. But DR2 was definitely a fun ride. I think the last 3 chapters are great and compelling. While I don't like the WHOLE cast like I did in DR1, I feel much more strongly about the characters in DR 2. (Sorry if that's too long of a response x3)
Another issue I had in case 2 was with Byakuya and specifically how the game handwaves him being extremely suspicious during most of the trial by having him say he'd just point out he saw Mondo leave the crime scene if the other students concluded Byakuya is the killer. For how smart of a person he's portrayed as, this is an incredibly stupid backup plan because by that point, no one would believe him and since the whole system is based on votes, they'd just vote him up and he'd get everyone but Mondo killed, including himself. But no one calls him out on it, so as I said, it's handwaved away. It's just conveniently written that Makoto convinced everyone to write him off as a possible killer and then everyone decided to talk until something happens and it did happen when Mondo slipped up.
Did never understand how dangerously close i was to Junko's view of the world. That's both kinda upsetting ind inpiring. Thank you so much for this video. I hope that it's going to be popular enough for you to make this kind of video about all other games as well. Good luck.
Okay but despite all that stuff with chihiro and such, I really do like and respect Mondo's character. He kinda just makes some sense to me. I know of some people that absolutely despise him because they thought his intentions were extremely bad and also just because you shouldnt lose that much control of your emotions but it's also like-I feel outbursts like that could really happen with those contrasts, being emotionally unstable, and also probably just never getting to express all of that built up pressure and stuff on Mondo's end. Note that I also like chihiro and that I think they're pretty cool. Those two characters are just really good for me personally My main thing with a decent amount of cases with this game is that a lot of them seem like cases teenagers could actually make it's swag Oh yeah also I like Hifumi because that's totally on this topic of the comment 😎
Nothing beats playing all of junkos friendship events in the bonus mode BEFORE playing the actual game and deciding she's your favorite without realizing what kinda game this is
I completely and totally agree with your feelings on the Chapter 2 trial here. I replayed this game about a year ago, and that 'groping gender reveal scene' is absolutely agonizing to sit through. It's unreal how many people I've seen over the years jump through hoops to try and justify that scene. Apparently if Chihiro claims to be a man in some random postgame content then it means that nothing else that happens to them in the entire game can possibly be transphobic, as if Chihiro is an actual real life person here and not a fictional character written as an obvious trans allegory by a team of exclusively cis writers.* For my part though, as a trans woman who was still very deep in the closet when I first read this story more than a decade ago, the character in the series that I always identified with most was never Chihiro but actually Sakura, the character who constantly gets her gender (and sometimes even humanity) questioned by everyone around her and just kinda has to suffer through and ignore it. As much as I do appreciate the effort that the writers put into making Sakura and Chihiro somewhat relatable to the average reader, it's still hard for me to say that I like Chihiro as a character, as much as I feel like she falls into the same category for me as most other trans/trans-adjacent characters written by cis people largely ignorant of trans issues. I don't 'like' Chihiro's character as much as I 'sympathize' with her and wish that she hadn't been done so dirty by the larger narrative. *(Spoilers for V3)
I agree with this. While the character of Chihiro isn't transphobic, I do think that the presentation had tansphobic undertones, whether that be on purpose or a mistake in conveying what the original purpose was. Personally, the way I interpret it, is Chihiro is biologically male, but has a complex due to bullying because guys should be strong or some bullshit like that and as a result, he dresses like a girl, but wants to combat this, but wants to eventually become comfortable enough to start presenting as male again (although, peoplecan interpretit howeverthey like). This does wonders for Chihiro's character, but they definitely could have handled it better.
@@ohthisguyagain5386 Yeah, I think Chihiro themselves is a really inspiring character, and I feel that they really only make sense to me as either male both biological and gender-wise, or being in the phase of questioning their gender identity. Since they die without getting to speak for themselves more clearly it’s not completely obvious which of these is the case, but I still think that Chihiro wanting to be male is what is clearly implied. Either way though, Chihiro to me is not the problem just as Genocide Jill is not the problem to me, it’s the way the characters in the game respond to these characters and the way the game presents them. I don’t believe they are necessarily intending to be transphobic but it still comes from an ignorant viewpoint on the part of the writers that makes the writing in many areas really not age well. The fact that not a single character ever even considers what gender Chihiro wanted to be referred to as, instead only changing their language based on what they know of Chihiro biologically (other than Hifumi), that’s the biggest problem to me. It’s not exactly hard to believe due to the ignorance so many have, but it still makes the game feel a lot more dated than any other chapters in the game do, that and the whole “schizo” thing. 😫 Whether intentionally or not, it’s still a problem and it still is harmful and I don’t blame people for feeling uncomfortable about the writing during this chapter.
@@jordandwiggins1026 yeah, I think if it was remade today, it would be a lot better. We had some improvement with -SPOILERS FOR V3 CHAPTER 3- Korekiyo having a tulpa rather than DID during the chapters big reveal, and while it could have been cleared up better and still isn't the best representation for people with mental health issues or with incest things (which actual is serious topic), it shows that Spike Chunsoft at least has an idea of where the fucked up
@@finnvaneekelen4966 it's one of the things the anime gets right. Kyoko just straight up tells everyone what she found out from her body search in the trial room. And in the situation they're in, a body search is necessary, so I dont blame her for accidentally finding out
Man, talking about Chihiro is deeply upsetting at times, mostly because people will immediately assume that even if you just take issue with how Chihiro's story is written then you're just an idiot with no reading comprehension that just doesn't get that Chihiro was never intentionally written to be a trans woman. Like, yes, we know that, can you stop assuming people who take issue with this section of the story are just confused and actually listen for once???
Big chihiro discussions give me a headache admittedly. That's why I usually just compromise with they/them so that everyone can not comment on it 😭 Though I'm sure some people still get comments for that. I just think chihiro gender discussions make no sense most of the time. Either way there's still a very clear gender presentation and identity issue that chihiro deals with trans or not it feels like to me. Though others will feel differently based on their experience or lacktherof.
As far as Junko's shallow motivations and being compared to the villains in Funny Games, the term that I think of is "Force of Nature" type villain. Villains whose motivations are obscured by not having any tangible reason or backstory behind them. Sure it can feel like a cop-out, but I think of Ledger's Joker as the most popular example of this. The lack of reason is part of the mystique; and it works when the force that they serve is a relatable and terrifying adversary on it's own (chaos or despair).
It’s interesting seeing which characters people chose to befriend and why. I started with Celeste because duh, incredible design and ludicrous character. Then I chose Sakura because she really seemed like she needed a friend. Then finally I chose Byakuya because I thought he’d make it to the end and I thought he might have some answers
this video made me realise why i love danganronpa so much and why, even after watching many playthroughs of the games, i still went back to play all 3 main line games and loved them intensely. this game series really has changed my outlook on certain things and has provided me with a variety of lovable and eccentric characters, some of which lived, most who died. even though they're not real, they're real to me and their actions and lives will stick with me for a while to come.
my favorite chapter is celestia, she will always be my favorite.. also..about chihiro...i 100% understand but..for me..chihiro was one of the first queer figure's i ever saw...in any media..so my relation to the second trial is kinda diferent..
as someone who also has alters, you perfectly summed up my thoughts on syo and i want to thank you for that! ofc i know the trope is as harmful and overdone as a trope can get but syo is my favorite character in the game because of how well she exists to basically subvert the trope, plus she is a complete riot even outside of the murderer stuff. you put my feelings into words and as someone who was a little embarrassed to like her you have definitely made me feel seen :]
I honestly thought Sakura's death in the game was both the saddest and most meaningful. Totally my favorite character in the entire game, despite her goofy appearance.
The difference between SHL and Ultimate: Keebo, a sentient, autonomous state of the art automaton, is an Ultimate robot. A 'super highschool level' robot is a vibrator with a raspberry pi and a 1st place science fair ribbon stuck to it
@@IchibanOjousama the ultimate robot would be out of all robots in existence made by the smartest people on the planet. The super highschool level robot would be out of all the robots made by highschoolers. It's a joke
Pretty sure that look that Junko gave just before she died was a look of confusion. Which is karma to her because instead of dying filled with despair, she died filled with confusion as to why the machine wasn't working.
46:29 I get the feeling the Hangman's Gambit wasn't "DID" because short acronyms would make the game too easy, but if that were the case, I would've just used "SPLIT," as in split personality. Heck, it would be an easy thing to change in re-releases because none of the English VAs use the offending term anyway.
Your criticisms of the handling of Chihiro’s gender in Ch2 are sadly spot-on. Honestly, with a few nudges, I could see it be a fairly decent (or at the very least not entirely awful) transmasc narrative. I.E. Chihiro is afab but really wants to be able to embrace their true, male identity. However, they’re deeply insecure about their body and lack of strength and remain closeted because of it. Monokuma lists them as male to antagonize their insecurity, while Mondo chooses to respect Chihiro’s decision to remain closeted for the time being and doesn’t want to out them. Certainly not perfect, but the struggle involved with feeling unable to properly express one’s true self is a struggle that very much speaks to me.
As a trans guy, and someone who played this game while closeted, and i really REALLY resonated with Chihiro. like a LOT. i know its majority in bad taste but i like the subtlety of at least mondo respecting that Chihiro hasn't come out about their secret yet and changing it as to not ruin that for him. its sad but i like how he didn't take coming out away from him. Idk it can be seen as disrespectful and respectful at the same time but.. if i wouldve died before coming out i wouldnt want to have been outed by a friend yaknow? i guess its just like, too personal a thing. IDK!! i love chihiro and it makes me happy seeing how he wants to be seen as stronger and i really REALLY resonate with that :) all i know is that it DEFFINETLY couldve been SOOOOO much worse.. im glad it wasnt COMPLETELY in bad taste.
It's been forever since I wrote a paper, so this will be more of a stream of consciousness. Back when I discovered Danganronpa I didn't even know what a trans person was, but looking back Chihiro was definitely a crack on my eggshell. Even though I wouldn't discover my own identity for 5 years I still felt something of a spiritual kinship with Chihiro. In high school I took 3 computer programming classes and even had a SHSL Programmer shirt which was my favorite shirt. I would boast about being the weakest guy in class, while secretly resenting it. I hated working out in public where people could see me. While Chihiro is "Canonically Cis", I think that this is only because of how socially conservative Japan is. Anime and Manga has a lot of Trans Coded characters who are "canonically cis" and it is incredibly annoying. It's like the queer Coded characters of the Hays code era of film in the states who were "Canonically Cis-Het". I've seen people claim Chihiro is trans fem, and I've also seen people claim Chihiro is coded trans masc. Personally I relate to the interpretation of a transfem Chihiro, but I also actually really like reading "Chihiro coming out as a guy" as them being read as transmasc coded. I'm really glad that both transmasc and transfem people can relate to Chihiro's experience.
Unfortunately a TON of people claim it’s “transphobic” and “transmisogynistic” to headcanon Chihiro as transmasc or non-binary, and honestly I have no idea why.
@@miamafalda1118 probs people having a strong connection to Chihiro and using their character as a way to process their own identity, so now a rejection of their interpretation is misconstrued as a rejection of them personally. It happens a lot in less divisive subject matter so it isn’t that surprising if you know what’s up.
@@TorrentialStardust That's true. The thing is, many non-binary and transmasc people could easily relate to Chihiro's story too, which is why I think it's best to just respect people's headcanons.
On japanese media back then (hell even now, I dare say) you were either a minority and the butt of the joke "haha look at this MAN saying he's got a maiden's heart and calling himself she/her, point at them and laugh!" Or a minority and the seediest more degenerate fetish for someone to salivate over (and also the butt of a tasteless joke) "wow you telling me that GIRL is actuall GUY?? A bio guy???? And they got a big butt AND a penis??? Haha I'm not gay, but I'll hit it xDxDxD"
Finished the game, currently playing school mode and wishlisted the other games. Hyped to unlock everything in the other games and see what they offer. Officially one of my favorite game franchises.
I know the TH-cam comments suck, but I wish you had talked about the trans stuff more! Because I love you (platonically) and I'm NB and I appreciate when people point out bad representation
Thank you for talking about the parallels of Chihiro to various trans experiences. As someone who’s transfemme, I often find people being extremely insensitive or downright transphobic about any criticism of how it’s handled and I hope you faced minimal negative comments on the topic
Fun fact: in chapter 3, despite being more or less obvious perpetrator, Celeste actually didn't make that much mistakes in her own part of the plans and had all the chances in winning the trial. She made only 2 mistakes - the "those guys" remark and when she didn't take Taka's note from Hifumi(but i would like to point out that she probably tried, because she's not that stupid after all, but it never occured to her that Hifumi would hide the note in the freaking PANTS). Oh, i'm sorry. Not 2, but 3 mistakes. The third one - making Hifumi her partner. Tho whole problem arised from Hifumi's slopiness and inadequacy in completing the required tasks. It weren't Seleste who botched everything up - it was Hifumi. Hifumi was too delusional, hence he went too far in making the costume: the blueprints was way more elaborate than needed and the costume became too overloaded with stuff, when the only thing it should have done is to hide the face and general body size. Hifumi was too hastly and bold, hence the bad hit at Ishimaru, which broke the wristwatch, and the carelessly way of retrieving the note, leaving the scrap behind. Finally, Hifumi was too stupid, hence the use of insane amounts of blood which later covered his glasses and unnoticed blood tracks from the dolly. See? Hifumi almost destroyed everything he touched in that case. If he was just a little bit more reliable, even if that erased only 1 of the before-mentioned leads, the Celeste's plan would have probably succeded. And i still unironically think that she should have used Ishimaru as a coinpirator - proper and thorough "moral compass" would probably never made those mistakes. So the only grave mistake Celeste made was not "those guys" remark or the note taking, but the fact that she chose Hifumi. Thank you all for coming at my ted talk.)
Awesome video! You brought up some great points and I can definitely understand your stance on chapter 2. While I wasn't bothered by the Chihiro reveal back then during my first experience of it, looking back I can definitely understand why it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. The fact that suddenly everyone immediately jumps on to calling Chihiro by he/him pronouns right after they find out that he was biologically male was quite insensitive (though I guess the game did come in 2010), like when Hifumi just straight up says, "So 'she' was actually a 'he'." Honestly, the only one who even tried to ask about Chihiro's gender was Byakuya (props to him, I guess?), who questioned "Assuming his handbook did, in fact, list his gender as male, then yes, that [being able to access the boy's locker room] would be true." (though unfortunately, he's using he/him pronouns), with Monokuma confirming the thought. I'm not actually sure if Byakuya was even saying this out of any respect (he DID just mess with Chihiro's goddamn corpse so where are our priorities at rn), but I guess it's something (maybe) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I personally do not believe that the writing for chapter 2 was intended to have trans and/or transphobic connotations and I'm pretty sure the narrative was supposed to be talking about gender norms and toxic masculine standards, not gender identity, but unfortunately, it did end up presenting itself that way to a ton of people (thus, inadequate writing) and because of that, stuff like the trans Chihiro debate exists (which I'm kind of sick and tired of now). All in all, this is a wonderfully made video and I can see you put a lot of effort in it. I really hope you'll make one covering sdr2 in the future! :>
Same, I prefer to just focus on the actual story it tried to tell, but I get why people made the connection and why it can be upsetting. Still love Chihiro though.
It's sad that we can't have conversations about gender expression without a bunch of nasty people leaving nasty comments. Hopefully, one day, people won't be so horrible. These conversations are important and lead to better representation over all.
In retrospect, I actually like “Super High School Level” much more than “Ultimate”. It implies that the students still have a ways to go before they’re the best, unlike Ultimate which implies they’re already at the peak of what can be achieved. I know that they already are the absolute best in the story (I.e. Byakuya casually making millions through stock trading because he was board) but I like the idea of it.
So, after a second listen of this retrospective and my own conflicting feelings on Fujisaki as a character, I have to say something. The handling of Fujisaki's insecurities coupled with the blatant misgendering of them as a character is ultimately (hah, I'm funny) emblematic of the blatant traditional and old school ways of Japan as a culture. Coupling that with how they handle Fukawa and Sho, it's a double whammy of irresponsible mishandlings and gross representation of two demographics, those being LGBT peoples and the mentally ill, that turns what used to be my favorite trial in to an uncomfortable ordeal to sit through.
As much as I like both games, Danganronpa and Persona 4 handled gender identity in a strange and cruel way. As soon as each game's central group finds out one of their own is not the same gender they were assigned at birth, they assume the character is grappling with inner demons and "masquerading" as a different gender as a result of desperation or (wait for it) despair. That's always bothered me. As if their transness(?) _must_ have a concrete reason to exist, and that reason _must_ be tied to their misery - why _else_ would they do something as "insane" as being trans? Surely, through bog-standard character development, they'll be cured of such a bizarre and alien desire to... fuck I dunno, feel okay in their own skin, I guess? I know it was a different time, but both games show their age considerably when it focuses on their trans characters.
THANK YOU! Thank you for making me remember everythink I felt while playing this beautiful game! Thank you for making me cry again over the deaths, twists, ending and even over credits! Thank you for this amazing video! That's the best danganronpa video essay I've ever seen. No other video made me cry before
I have to imagine that Chihiro would've been written a good bit differently if the game had been made, say, 10 years later than it was; the depiction is sympathetic, but yeah, tone deaf as well in many regards. The interesting part to me is that for all Chihiro's talk of "needing to get stronger" and shed their more feminine exterior, when you see the pictures of the characters in their happier school days Chihiro is still visibly female presenting; I'm sure it wasn't thought out this far in the writing, but it kind of makes me wonder if they could be read as trans in the context of a healthier, safer, friendlier school life, whereas the impetus of the killing game was what pushed them to want to be "stronger" and to dislike themself and hate their "weakness". Spitballing here, of course, but it did make me think.
I remember being slightly surprised that Sayaka died but mostly because I thought she would be the first killer. She was super suspicious to me when I was playing the game. And I suppose since I hadn't watched any trailers or seen the demo beforehand I had no reason to believe she'd be around for a long time. Junko's death on the other hand actually did really surprise me. Because I thought her character design was very interesting and very 'Danganronpa-esque', so I was very surprised they'd just kill her off so early for nothing. Literally the main reason I guessed the end of the game twist was because I didn't want to suspect anyone else and thought she needed to come back lol. I also immediately realized Sakura’s suicide but still greatly enjoyed the case. I think it’s my favorite chapter because it made me love Sakura so much
Download OperaGX for free here! mtchm.de/c2v4b
And for today's pinned comment question: what would _your_ talent be, if you were a student of Hope's Peak Academy?
The Ultimate Annoying Student maybe? 😅
The Ultimate Lazy Person. Yeah, either that or the classic Ultimate ??? for my Talent.
ultimate visual novel addict 😂
Eating too many jelly beans and puking would be my talent
The ultimate artist maybe
I've gotta be totally honest, the main reason I knew Celeste was the killer was that she was suddenly getting lots of screen time instead of just a little bit here and there
Extra screen time either means you're the culprit or gonna die soon
That's how you can tell who's the killer in every trial it sorta takes the fun out of it when you can quickly figure out who it is which is just like you said the killers are always the characters who barely talk throughout the trails but all of the sudden have lots to say then that's when you know it's them
@@lameduck7569 yeah, 2 and V3 did a lot better at hiding the killers until near the end of the trial, (spoilers ahead) Mikan's a bad example because... well, we all know how 2-3 went. But Teruteru, Peko, Gundham, AND Chiaki/Nagito were good twists. And V3 really blew it out of the water; Kaede, Kirumi, Gonta and Kaito were well done, but in my opinion Korekiyo was the most brilliant BECAUSE he was so damn suspicious, which immediately throws off ANYONE who has done twelve of these damn trials so far
@@itsyaboitavino3273 Gonta was easy to figure out because honestly it was either him or Tsumugi. Then Tsumugi got an alibi and, well...
@@itsyaboitavino3273 tbh nanami was very easy to guess as. You know. Your assistant or antag dying last case isn't really a big surprise in murder mysteries but that makes it better. While playing, because of how nanami is treated, you are actively in denial the whole case
genocider jack is a horrible rep but also a secret serial killer in the cast who not only does no murder but also roasts everyone for there shitty murder is in fact, the funniest fucking premise for a character in a game like this.
Probably my favorite part of Trial 2 overall, alongside Mondo's part of the narrative.
Look every newbie needs a professional to tell them how badly they're doing, even if it's something like murder
She's my favourite character but I wish she wasn't such a horrific stereotype 😭😭 I swear if she was a DR2 or V3 character Syo/Jack would've been like herself from the beginning
yeah she's so fucked up but also so silly I love her
im willing to look past the horrible rep since it was 2013 and most people dont understand did even to this day, and setting that aside shes just a really funny character
Fun thing about Junko's execution, I'd always assumed the hesitant drop was so she had time to feel despair over the possibility of not dying only for the block to kill her with that feeling
i always thought it was to give her enough time to get bored about the thought of the despair of dying! the way she frowns at the end made it seem like she had gotten bored of her own execution. which i think in that respect would have caused her the greatest despair, that not even the despair of death was enough for her
im also commenting this at the beginning of the video so i dont know if thats said in it 😅
Ive never thought of that view point! I saw a post a while ago, idk where, but it said that Junko looked up at the crusher at the last second with an expression of confusion. Basically, she didn’t die in despair like she wanted, she died in confusion. And she isn’t even alive to feel the despair of not getting the ending she wanted.
The button she dropped was labeled "emergency override". Peculiar that they decided to take it to the school door, no?
This was also what I thought!
Taka and Mondo's relationship is the epitomy of "two guys chilling in a hot tub"
5 FEET APART CUZ THEY'RE NOT GAY
5 feet apart cuz they're not gay
"Five feet apart because they're n-'
Four feet apart because they are gay
@@isapu1948 “Because they give of gay vibes."
I love how Yasuhiro predicts the bad ending. In his free time events
Well, he IS correct about 30% of the time.
I'd say he was about 20% right.
Oops, I was late
He also correctly predicts after chapter 3's trial that no more murders are going to happen
@@andrejh.6335 The fact that there are three different options and he’s always about 30% right was what seriously got me when I realized this
I love that not only is Syo not the murderer in the trial, she's NEVER the murderer in any trial.
A literal serial killer is better behaved than Mondo, Celestia or Leon.
I mean it could be that every male was ugly “in Jill’s pov”
But still…
Togami…
@@Wolfie118girl wont be able to kill him hes tall and 62% leg
@@jayIG And in the next game he’s 62% body fat
Kinda makes sense that a professional serial killer would show better cool during an elimination killing game than people who’ve never seen blood and are suddenly at risk of death.
I love how everyone just kind of accepts it too. To be fair I don’t think Toko enjoyed her other personality and seems rather desperate to keep her contained. So I think if anything they feel sympathy for her at the very least
Celeste tends to be written off as "shallow" because she went for the million dollars... People. She's the ultimate GAMBLER. She found herself in game where the price for losing is her life, and she chose to risk it when she had a good hand (Hifumi was pretty much her pawn at that point) and the reward for winning was the highest (her life AND a ton of money). In a series where talents are a vital part of how the characters are designed, and yet somehow they are horribly underused - most characters don't get to use their skills, let alone it having any plot relevance - Celeste's gambling talent is one of the best-utilized across all three games.
I think it was just more so her plan since it was pretty obvious it was her. Not so much her motive.
Sorry but that trial did not live up to what I expect from someone called the Ultimate Gambler.
I recommend you to watch ''Analysis of Celestia Ludenberg: game vs live action'' by Lila Naz Gunes, where she describes another way of Celestia's trial could have played out.
The trial, plot and case being bad pretty much settles it. There was potential, it being obviously celeste, how poorly she tried to hide it, the fact that every murderer gets alot of screentime before the murder occurs, really ruins case 3. I think celeste's breakdown and losing her fake accent was funny and entertaining. Seeing the criminals slowly break down was my fave part of trial 1 and 3. Overall it was just poorly written and under utilized celeste and no amount of fan writing csn fix that.
@@BunPrincerewrites????
No matter what Celeste was and is shallow. I dont understand peoples defense of her or scratching to try and find something deeper. She is shallow, plain and simple.
I actually think Celeste was supposed to be easy to identify. All of her gambling stories revolve around her winning by luck, which isn't unheard of for DR, and the meticulous yet bad planning can be tracked as reasonably as her trying to win on her own merits rather than chance, since all her gambling prowess doesn't come from skill. She also becomes increasingly upset the more people ignore her curfew rule due to the lack of control.
Celeste being the queen of lies is just a lie, which becomes more apparent when you look at her claim to be both Japanese and have a name like Celestia Ludenburg. Why would a master liar use such a bad lie?
Fair enough. Although conversely, I'd have to say if she was _intended_ to be easy to identify, that's rather poor design for a mystery game in any case lol. Especially for as drawn out as Chapter 3 is.
@@NezumiVA Not necessarily. I can understand the issues people have with the case since some of it is poorly communicated, but I found the engagement to come more from the absurdity of how extravagant her plan was. It does make me like her much more as a character since the clues are scattered and erratic, and that's how someone as desperately trying to hide their mental breakdown would set up their convoluted mystery. Narratively it's strength is characterizing just how terrified she is, so it's a mystery that's entirely characterizing a seemingly shallow character. It's probably my second - maybe 3td - favorite from DR1 primarily for Celeste and her weird dumb plan, but if the focus is about figuring out the solution (a fair perspective I think most people look for) then I understand why people don't like it.
@@NezumiVA
Idk man i didn't find any of the trials particularly challenging. I thought the point was the investigation and than the trial is a fun (show your homework whit a few funky execution scenes).
I don't think the murder mysteryes were the driving force of Danganronpa.
Telling a bad lie about something obvious like Celeste’s true name, doesn’t really prove she’s a bad liar. I think we can all agree about a certain character from DR3 being a good liar, but MOST of their lies are childishly obvious.
Jonathan Gilbert being obvious wouldn't be so bad if the game didn't have the pacing it did. I.e, your given all the pieces most of the time and just need to put them together. Heck, even the testimonies are given before the trial starts. (Which you have to reiterate for some reason) regardless, those things combined generally means you have to solve a mystery that you already know the answer to. Which, regardless of whether the mystery is actually good or not, is not a very thrilling experience. Honestly, the only exceptions to this really are chapter 5 for obvious reasons, and chapter 2 where the killer slips up but either is not as noticeable or it happens mid trial.
I think that's the main reason why the later games are so much better regarded, because of the increasing complexity forcing you to solve a mystery to get to the culprit instead of solving one with a suspect already in mind.
Funfact! In the German dub for the anime, Monokuma is voiced by Santiago Ziesmer, the German voice of Spongebob. Which I think is a great choice to localize the way Doraemon's voice coming out of a murderous teddybear threw Japanese players off.
I mean otherwise the dub is horrible but whenever Momokuma says something I simply smile because its so bloody ironic lol
From what I've heard, there is like, 3 voice actor in Germany, so, it's no surprise Spongebob and Monokuma are the same lol
@@ZE.brigitte germany has many great VA, since Germany dubs a lot of tv showes and movies. There actually many good VA here
I love the different culture's interpretations of it. In English it's clearly supposed to be Mickey Mouse (and they went the extra mile by making Usami/Monomi sound like Minnie, but imo... the VAs were trying their best). But I'm imagining Tom Kenny (English Spongebob) voicing Monokuma down to the "daaa-aaaa-aaa-aaa" laugh instead of upupupupupu.
Despite Chapter 2 being a representation disaster, let's give what is due: I found it moving that Mondo not only understood Chihiro's situation, but went the extra mile trying to prevent the secret being revealed without their consent during the investigation (Because, you know, dead) before the corpse is taken out by Monokuma.
He was very macho, had a very standard system of value and killed Chihiro... But ultimately respected the very thing that triggered his murderous rage.
That’s why I still had respect for Mondo after the fact, that he was willing to protect Chihiro’s identity. I agree that the chapter could have done better.
Mondo might kill but not purposefully misgender someone (?
@@angeljafbenitez1843More that he’ll risk being caught with the body and ensuring his own demise in order to protect their secret.
He wasnt triggered by Chihiros identty but rather the courage that he lacked. The gender identity was not the thing that triggered his murderous rage.
@@blklightning21facts
For me I always assumed the brief upward look Junko has in her final execution isn't one of hesitation but instead of confusion. Beause Junko was the ringleader for the Tragedy she craves despair for both her classmates and herself. As such, her execution is supposed to be a culmination of despair for her plan ending. That's why she's fine with both winning and loosing. Either way she gets to either plunge the world into despair or feel the despair of her plan being foiled. So when she's finally being executed she's enjoying it until that very last moment where the rhythmic crushing of the final execution appears to have missed a beat or to have been temporarily halted. It's in that moment where she's no longer in that state of despair but rather in a state of confusion as to why the execution isn't going as planned. As such, give that's the state she's crushed to death in, her execution deprives her of the despair she desperately craves. So by putting her in a momentary state of confusion for her last moments she's deprived of what she really wants. It's the more despairful ending for her because she doesn't get to partake in despair.
Or it could just be a joke
Now I'm confused.
@@SamuraiDoggo14shorter version: Junko was high on despair until the crushing machine was delayed, where Junko was killed not being high on despair.
Someone mentioned this was a big brain move. If Junko was reincarnated as a ghost (Insert Yasahiro joke), then her soul would be like “DAMMIT! I didn’t die like I wanted… which is more despairful, YAY!” or something like that.
"ronpa" is rly close to "rumpa" to swedish ears, which is the swedish word for "butt"
so you can imagine how much that joke was done to death over here.
I once called out "DanganRUMPA!!!" to a Kiyotaka cosplayer and they went up to my face and gave me a long theatrical in-character glare. Good times~
Thats a nice reaction xD
The "ganronpa" part is also similar to "garompa" wich in argentinian spanish means "dick" lol
@@kyu7206 beautiful~
In the spanish side of the community there is this joke of "Tanga rota" which means broken thong.
lol, har varit medveten om Danganronpa sen Orenronens LP var igång men har aldrig ens tänkt tanken "DanganRUMPA"
One thing I always liked about Genocide Jack is how her presence creates this weird... well.... feeling of safety whenever they're around. Yes, Jack is a murderer, but she's a murderer you know has a very specific way of working, so she's unlikely to ever kill you herself.... but also she's someone nobody wants to mess with because she clearly could end you if you got too uppity.
The one person with a confirmed body count is, paradoxically, also your best source of protection. At least, that's how it always felt to me. And I think UDG ultimately goes on to prove my point.
It helps that she’s relatively consistent. She has a set MO and won’t deviate from it, but she also knows that her refusal to do so means that if she were to kill someone she’d be caught instantly. So instead she sits back and enjoys the show
Totally! She's predictable in this exact situation in a way nobody else is, which is fascinating. Also personally, it brought me a lot of joy watching Togami become a bit less secure in his Main Character Syndrome whenever she jumped in.
Danganronpa 1 also has a TON of Japanese cultural commentary, too. A big part of the thematic resonance and depth in Danganronpa can be found in the students' talents and Monokuma's Theaters.
For instance: part of Chapter 2's themes about masculinity come from its three principle targets: Ishimaru, who exerts his masculinity through authority and discipline, Owada exerts his through rebellion, violence, and personal branding, and Chihiro exerts it through self-improvement and reaching out to others. It's a pretty harsh critique of the yankii delinquent subculture that Owada is capable of buddying up with Ishimaru, the very embodiment of authority his entire self-identity opposes; but that his masculinity is so immediately threatened by meek little Chihiro that he not only kills Chihiro for it, but straight up blacks out, not even being able to bring himself to think about killing the one person who thought he was The Most Manly.
Junko actually gets MOST of her characterization prior to her reveal through the Monokuma Theaters, during which time the player gradually gets a feel for the way the mastermind thinks about Japanese society, and especially Japanese capitalism. I'm especially fond of the pair of anecdotes where Monokuma relays a story about wanting to become a mascot, but getting pissed off at the suggestion that he should be a shrimp or a crab, and the "tech support lady" refusing to drop the issue. Imagining Junko Enoshima puzzling out her evil mascot and getting increasingly frustrated with an airheaded lady trying to suggest something subversive and niche is not only hilarious, but also a pretty great snapshot of Junko's hyper-cynical worldview. I also really dig Monokuma Theater 5, where Monokuma gives a mocking, bitter impersonation of Makoto Naegi's whole "I'm not special or unique" speech. It's clear that not only does Junko hate Makoto by the end of the game for inconveniencing her, she actually hates him from the start for seemingly embodying and being okay with the banal tedium of everyday life that Junko herself found so aggravating that she blew it all up.
I kind of think Danganronpa 1, due to its development time and multiple revisions, really got chewed up enough for all of its themes and characters to grow new angles. I kind of think Danganronpa 1 is a much, much smarter game than SDR2 or NDRV3.
Dang, I'd like to hear more of your analysis on the Monokuma Theaters. You just got me interested as to why Junko thinks the way that she does.
@@oriongold395 It's probably a topic someone else could cover in detail better than I could, but there's one other notable snippet in the Monokuma Theaters that I find fun and worth bringing up when discussion of Danganronpa comes up.
In one of the MonoTheaters in DR1, the bear goes on a tirade about "hating videogames" because of an incident where he was hanging out with his only friend, and got controller-snubbed. Monokuma then felt superior about "analyzing and determining all the best strategies, just from watching" and resolved to never play the game.
A few things stick out about this - first of all, like most of the rest of the Monokuma Theaters, it becomes darkly hilarious when you imagine Junko in Monokuma's place. Poor girl got invited to her only friend's house and got snubbed on the controller, probably because she was a girl. Second, Danganronpa supplemental media suggests Junko's real talent is "Analytics", being able to make extremely complex and intricate calculations, judgements, and predictions in just a glance. Junko very well *could* have been right about seeing the optimum strategies.
However, she never got to test her theories, because she never got to play. And so she resolves to never play in the future, either. This basically encapsulates Junko's character - she sees flaws or issues in the world, and instead of participating in society to try to fix those flaws, decides that those flaws mean the whole thing is broken and should be thrown out, baby and bathwater alike.
No "big" incident made Junko the way she is, she just lived a life where she didn't have a lot of friends and wasn't treated well socially, and her analytical brain forced her to get stuck in her head until she decided the only recourse was complete, bloody, horrific anarchy.
I also think the Theater where Monokuma makes fun of the games industry canceling games right after announcing them is really funny - and Junko's consistent anti-capitalism is based
@@TroixixI am super super super super thankful that you just so happened to do an analysis of my favorite Monokuma Theater. And give yourself some credit, because this was absolutely spot on!
Your mention of Junko's refusal to participate in society so as to improve it is an observation I also made after recently beating the game for a second playthrough, and wow...is it a level of tragedy that just brings her character together. Junko easily had the greatest potential among all the students, (verified by the sheer level of intelligence, ability, and overall consistency required of her plan) enough that it may be no exaggeration to suggest that she could've guided the world into prosperity. But because she'd been born under despair, the only outcome for her was one of irrecovable apathy. This makes her, in a way, the truly most unlucky student; born with everything and a literal want for nothing, leaving her forever unsatisfied and miserable enough to create a catastrophe she could've prevented.
i NEVER in a million years thought i would even CONSIDER liking junko as a character but your video shows her purpose in the story/the ideas behind her personality could actually be really amazing... i think i need to revisit the whole series with this new perspective 😳😳
PS: did you voice act all the characters when their lines were read? it was so well done
If you haven't already, I'd also _highly_ encourage reading the spinoff novel duology "Danganronpa Zero" to get more out of her character! It has no official translation, but it's very easy to find a very well done fan translation online, and it gives _great insight_ into Junko's character. Unlike several other spinoff novels, it's also written by Kodaka himself, meaning it's effectively 100% canon, even getting a nod in the DR3 anime's OVA episode.
Edit: About the read lines, yup! Those were me. Thank you!
Honestly Sakura Oogami herself would be enough to make this game a classic. If I were an ultimate I think my talent would be Freelance artist, then I could do whatever I wanted as long as it was a form of art.
Hell Yeah! Sakura Ogami is like my favorite character from the franchise.
@@Greenbeehivve Mine as well!
I'd be the ultimate shit poster
It would be an ultimate that sounds stupid and be easily underestimated, but it also one of those things that has skills that are useful and applicable well beyond the thing you're the ultimate at - meaning just because you aren't the ultimate in those areas doesn't mean you aren't a threat
I'd want to be the ultimate cheesemaker. I feel like theres more benefits there rhan just cheese.
Kodaka: wants characters to remain whole
Also Kodaka: budder
Didnt remain whole especially when he was getting eaten on those pancakes.
also kodaka:
mechamaru?????
I think he was more talking about the murder victims, since you have to spend a good bit of time examing their corpses. The executions are fair game for a lot of mutilation
@@necrodeus6811am i missing something. or was Mondo's corpse in that place where all of the others were.
@@livivindle9912 yeah that's true, it could have been his liquidated remains but into the coffin after the fact but it would make more sense if his body was actually intact
I find junko almost pitiable now that I see her title to be "someone who has felt the most despair possible" makes me wonder what she saw to get her to that point even as deplorable as she is
It's elaborated upon a bit in DR Zero, the novel. Her genuine talent is that of an Analyst, so she can basically predict things and people almost perfectly through her level of understanding and analysis. Therefore she becomes incredibly bored and almost dead to the world around her because she can predict practically anything - despair becomes her fixation simply because random, horrible acts of chance, violence, or misery are things that happen so unpredictably in our lives by contrast that even she can't always see them coming, and it actually stimulates her compared to everything else that she finds meaningless.
I believe the trope is “Blessed with Suck”.
@@NezumiVAnow I’m imagining an alternate Danganrompa world which is constantly being destroyed and war torn, so Junko builds a hope academy because despair was boring to her.
I'd just like to say your fun little voice imitations of the characters are just so delightful. Not an exact replication of the voices yet it still captures them amazingly, just a little detail I loved.
Thank you! I like to think I can actually do pretty decent impressions of _some_ of the actual English cast, but since voiceover is something _else_ I do for a living, I just prefer to give my own little spin on the characters when I _do_ voice them for something. Makes it a little more fun than just trying to imitate what was already done, I guess!
*you're imitations bring so much hope*
@@NezumiVA true honestly i do voice acting for living as well and it’s fun imitating character voices or trying to copy them. Because It really shows the small details on how the English voice actors or voice actors in general found a voice they thought would represent the character for their audience as well as demographic. Etc
@@NezumiVA I think you do a killer job 👍🏼
No pun intended.
I personally think Sakura's suicide was obvious right at the very start of the investigation. The vomiting blood, sitting position and barricaded door were pieces of evidence that lead me to believe that Sakura killed herself.
Yeah in my first playthrough my two guesses were just straight-up suicide, or that she'd purposefully staged the case so that Hina could win the game and escape. I thought she might have swapped the drink she asked Hina to get her with the poison ahead of time, technically making Hina the one to kill her while also making it unlikely the case would have been solved in the class trial since even Hina herself wouldn't have known she was the killer. Either way Sakura having a hand in her own death felt very apparent to me at first glance. But it was still one of the more interesting cases and having multiple people think they killed her was unique, so I can forgive the solution being a little more obvious
@Flameclaw123 if it was this, I'm not sure how I'd feel. there's a case in DR2 that doesn't sit well with me for this exact reason.
I don't think it's reasonable to count someone as the killer without intent, especially when it's someone else doing all the prep work and is clearly premeditated by someone else.
@@justcommoncurt Yeah that's fair, I get what you mean. I guess that's something that would have been left up to Monokuma to clarify in the rules one way or the other (but as you mention, that ruling would impact the DR2 case), but I can def see it coming off as messy to count something as a murder when there was no intention to kill
@@justcommoncurt
Well, that’s exactly what differentiates Monokuma’s trials from regular ones.
Because *another* case in DR2 argues this exact point... but only because they were never explained the “killer is the one why physically did it” rule. So they were still operating under the “killer is the one who comes up with it” logic.
The peaceful scene was what tipped me in the direction of it being a suicide. Every other murder up until then had been a very stressful scene, but Sakura's was framed as if it was peaceful.
Where the others struggled for their life and died in fear, Sakura died with pride
I think one of the best counterpoints to Junko's philosophy is simply noting how much effort she had to put in to get other people to agree with her and it doesn't even work on the students
Oh wow, good point!
One thing I think people forget is that Byakyuya spells out that if anyone wants to “win” the killing game they need to take out the people that are capable of catching them.
In the second trial he figures out that the two actual threats in the “game” are Kirigiri and Makoto.
But he never actually attempts it.
Makes sense though. 2 threats means that if you kill one, the other will catch you out in the next trial.
I’m sure Byakuya calculated that would be a no-win situation.
@@MageBurger but its only against the schools rules to kill more than two, not one. He could've preformed a double murder, and we know he's smart..
@@Vineshsien I completely forgot about that rule.
If anyone would murder Kirigiri and get away with it though, it would be Byakuya and just barely.
From the in-game writing, that girl would definitely hold her own in a fight, so using a good weapon would be worthwhile.
Nonetheless, if I was Byakuya willing to kill those two, I’d go for Kirigiri first since risking her being alive after killing Makoto would be a much higher risk than the inverse case.
You can maybe make an argument that Celeste or mayyyybe Hiro could sus out others, but neither can do it as well as Kirigiri and Makoto by far.
.Even if Junko claims not to fear death, in her final moments, she still clings to her teddy bear, like a scared child. she hugs Monomokuma like a shield. because that's what despair has always been for her. a shield protecting from the pain of being alive.
Damn.
Woah that was…
You know, I'm not even a danganronpa fan anymore and I really loved this video because holy shit does it go into depth with the things Spike did wrong and right and everything in between. After you go through all the games here, would you ever make Ace Attorney retrospectives? I would die to see that.
I'd definitely consider it, for sure! Adored Ace Attorney, growing up.
Well she uploaded an Ace Attorney retrospect the other day :p
same!
Something about this game and masafumi Takada's music messed with my brain chemistry in a way I cant place and its been lurking there in the back of my mind ever since, glad I got to walk through all that by watching this video. All the little trivia and interesting behind the scenes tidbits that contextualize a lot of the franchise's history and the different circles of fans it inspired has been very insightful and overall really solidified my appreciation and criticisms ive had with it. My first experience with it was through various letsplays and gradual interest built up over time by viewing covers of its anime original songs, I didn't even know it was a game at first but after watching the first trial in game I got hooked and needed to see what happend next. Loved the mainline games all the way through though it was a strained relationship at different points. Right around the time that SDR2 got officially translated i think was when I got in I think. And yes, The version of the game I watched was the Super HighSchool Level version. Also sakura oogami is the best character in the franchise.
We stan Sakura in this household
Gosh the section of you dissecting Celeste as a character reminds me of myself towards Mondo. This franchise sprinkles pixie dust on these characters where even if there's very little happening narrative-wise with them you can weave paragraphs about their backgrounds and subtext and tragedy of their characters. It certainly has its flaws but when it hits, it *hits.*
I think what I will forever love about the Junko and Mukuro bait and switch is there's one tiny detail that goes unmentioned by the game but reveals that they're two different people. The game brushes it off with the photoshop excuse but never outright states it.
What’s the detail
@@cosmicdust2668 Mukuro didn't have Junko's freckles
@@SuraimuWasTaken But that was a main thing is the trial, so I am not sure how it brushed off
@@galonski64 I don't think it was ever brought up in the trial. If it was, I've never seen it.
@@SuraimuWasTakenother way around, Mukuro has freckles so she says the photoshop excuse to explain why her skin looks clear in pictures
Junko Enoshima is the Senator Armstrong of anime visual novels.
A charismatic yet despicable antagonist that shows up only in the final act to completely steal the spotlight.
Honestly, I wish more pieces of media just had these. They're always so fun when they do appear.
My view of junko was if the joker from batman was an anime girl
I found Armstrong underwhelming, and I find Junky to be just annoying.
I feel like we don’t see those out of nowhere villains is because i would imagine that they are hard to pull off in a satisfying way
Nanomachines, Naegi! They activate in response to despair!
@@pugman9672 I'm writing one and they are pretty hard to do especially personality wise ( one example is to not have their motive predictable or " cartoony " )
I think that this is the FIRST time I've seen discussion of chapter 2 in THH handled well in a retrospective like this. I usually see it go two ways, where people either refuse to acknowledge Chihiro's clumsy writing but love and understand Mondo's character, or they DO acknowledge Chihiro's clumsy writing, but opt to blame a lot of it on Mondo instead (which I find honestly super weird because he isn't, y'know. real. Writing issues should be blamed on the writers and Chihiro's writing being this bad was FAR from a self-aware decision, but I digress.).
It honestly sucks because I adore both Chihiro and Mondo as characters, with Chihiro resonating with my ideas of gender expression that I've struggled with, and nearly everything about Mondo hitting super close to home in parallel to some of my own life experiences. There's honestly a really interesting message about toxic masculinity and idolization that they could've pushed into this chapter, had they handled Chihiro better and made THOSE ideas the focus instead.
I could go waist deep into my analysis of the unexplored dynamic between these two, but I don't want to make this any wordier than it already is, especially since you said that this topic is more upsetting for you, so I just want to say thank you for doing both of these characters I love some actual justice instead of sugarcoating anything. Really and truly, thank you.
It really sucks this potential dynamic was cut short and was half assed at the end. I get that it's a killing game and killing games don't care about whatever arc someone is going through, but the fact so many potential character arcs throughout the series, this one included, get cut short for no apparent reason aside from "it's a killing game, people die" is just irritating to me.
@@lukebytes5366 Oh yeah, I totally agree with you there. Danganronpa has ALWAYS had the issue of either making characters fully recover from other character deaths by the next chapter, or killing the characters who are still in the process of mourning instead of giving them chances to develop. (I think Taka is a really good, and also the very first example of this problem, and that tied with Ishida only ever being used as a band-aid turned plot device doesn't help in the SLIGHTEST. (it also doesn't help that his backstory and character info is kinda trapped in FTE limbo, so you could potentially go through the entire game without knowing anything about him.)
@@lukebytes5366
This is why I’d be open to a slice of life Danganronpa anime! I know it’s definitely not the direction the series would go in aside from non-canon material (DrS and the Talent Development Plan.)
Anyway, I think it’d be cool to see the DR1 class during their peaceful time at the school. We could get a lot of character development, see who becomes friends, have a lot of silly over the top moments, etc.
I understand that some would find that boring, but I personally think the characters are interesting enough that it wouldn’t be. I do think the killing game does make things suspenseful and high-stakes (kinda the point of the series) but I’d gladly watch them just chilling haha!
this is such a good comment. Mondo is one of the more relatable character for me, although I feel a stronger connection to Chihiro.
oh well that's just way better than anything I could say on the matter while still generally mirroring my feelings LMAO
I really loved Fujisaki as a character and found their story to be very touching and tragic. I say that as a cis person though - I can totally see why trans/genderqueer people would find it incredibly uncomfortable. Hell, even I was like "yeah, okay, that's enough" during the whole bout of everyone's ridiculous reactions to Fujisaki's gender reveal - even that DID make me uncomfortable - as well as everyone's insistence on instantly assuming Fujisaki identified as male (before it was confirmed, anyway). I feel if this chapter had toned the over the top reveal way the hell down, and handled Fujisaki's complex with more tact, it'd be easier to enjoy for everyone.
As someone who's gone back and forth on their gender identity, but come to ultimately feel that I align most closely (if not perfectly) with my assigned-at-birth gender, I feel like a Chihiro better-presented would resonate with me very deeply
As someone who's never really put any thought to my gender (since I personally do not feel like it is a personality-defining trait), I'm quite curious as to what is the issue in this trial. I understand the reactions being over the top might be a bit upsetting, but I think it can be easily overlooked due to the anime factor of it (since the characters overreact to pretty much every single big and/or small reveal), as well as culture shock, since (I believe) the whole gender identity movement is not as prominent in Japan, a country that is very conservative
It was just americans getting offended by anything
@@ted9030 I did not like it and im not american
@@ted9030 yous act like japanese queer people dont exist 😭😭😭
I played THH for the first time in 2018, the most striking thing for me while playing it was getting to the classroom on the 5th floor and finding out that a massacre at a school was the thing that led to a total societal collapse, and, being an American in the year 2018, just kinda went "but for me, it was Tuesday." It's a good game on its own, but playing it in a country where school violence is something that our leadership has just kind of allowed to become normal adds an entire new level of existential horror to the experience.
No amount of fanart, cosplay, or even the cute girl I went out with were able to convince me to play this game. But strapping in and experiencing the first chapter with you - okay now I want to play.
Fans do get really weirdly defensive about the Chihiro part, often trying to deny the parallels to trans identity. It's weird! Glad you talked about it though!
I will say I am in the camp who does not see those problems around this case, but I also know I am not part of the camp to be getting deep into discussion about it.
It's like Naoto from Persona 4. She's literally written exactly like trans people in denial and her arc was so relatable for many trans people and they just pull a 180 at the end with "I'm not LGBT, I just do this because I'm denying my femininity" like that's such a slap in the face and just implies trans people are trans for attention.
Like, I love GNC characters, but I'm tired of having a character written to be a great rep of GNC or trans people only for their stories to end with "I'm just doing it for attention, so now I'm going to not be trans anymore" like it's so disrespectful
I see the parallels about it. But I also see the problems with the technical writing as the trans girl head canon still almost implies Chihiro was bullied into being a trans girl
Not to mention Chihiro insisting they’re a boy in school mode
Then again this is likely just clumsy writing.
If I’m being honest Chihiro has more parallels with a trans guy who doesn’t fit the stereotype of a guy than a trans girl. Or maybe it’s just personal bias because I’m a trans guy who isn’t overly masculine . But because of the investigation that kind of thing gets disproven.
However looking on things now I can say that if Chihiro’s story got more to it. We may have been able to see a better line up with being a trans girl.
BUT and I just realized this
I have a problem with how the class reacted after this death automatically assuming Chihiro was a guy because born a guy and just the reveal in general rubs me the wrong way looking back on it
@@nevergonnagiveyouup1180 Japan isn't too LGBT+ friendly, was even less when the game was in development. The trans references probably went over heads of people who weren't interested in the subject. I'd say we're lucky it didn't go full fanservice trap trope.
Speaking here as a diehard Sakura fan since 2013, another thing that Really Gets on my Nerves about CH2 is Sakura's characterization, specifically how she handled the Chihiro "reveal". Why did the person who had the MOST to suffer from being gender nonconforming have to have THE MOST disproportionate and inappropriate reaction??? Why was her perspective on strength as a woman sidelined entirely during the trial?? She could have been THE MOST empathetic to Chihiro out of the entire cast at that point, cuz she was literally THE ONLY person who could have offered insight into how much of a farce gender itself is!! But no, the game at that point (fully excluding CH4 in my rant here) has to shove her into the Girl Box, and into the Girl Box she stays. With all the harmful assumptions that go with it.
Many thanks for insightful and passionate video, btw! 💗🌟 An obvious labor of love and passion!
I would've liked if Sakura had said like "But what does this prove? We do not truly know their own feelings on the matter" and then they used the toolkit or bathroom with no lock as evidence instead
@@Taranturat yeah... that would have been SO much more elegant. Then again, CH2 was also just Misinterpretation Station.
Me, seeing Junko die at the beginning: I thought I saw her a lot in DR art. I guess shes just popular
Me at the end: OOHHHHHHH
Lmfao, I was the same!
I was just like, "Huh, I guess fans just really liked her design and what little we got to see of her." until the reveal at the end!
@@gayspaghetti3374absolutely same. I was like, huh, I could've sworn she's important to the franchise considering how much are there is... lol
Literally
literally, i was so confused and convinced she played a bigger role bc there was no way she was that popular for no reason 😭
HAHAHA THIS!!!!
Your comments about being able to criticize something that you enjoy is a breath of fresh air in this medium. I have too many friends who get offended when I say I love something but have some issues with it’s themes, Persona 4’s handling of Naoto is a huge example of this.
For some reason, the first time I got the bad ending of this game I had a genuine panic attack. It was so bad that I even skipped the true execution of chapter 5 and had no idea what was happening at the end of the final chapter
same thing happened to me when i was little and i got the joke bad ending in the gamecube game Custom Robo where if you say no enough times to the final quest it tells you the world was destroyed and i was like "NOOOO!!!!" and turned off the tv and cried
its a videogame 😭
@@AntiSuccess Glancing at this I thought you were doing an insanity satire response to OP. +2 either way
@@idrk3707 who cares lol
@@Lunarrbase its never that srs
I'VE BEEN MAD ABOUT "TAKA" FOR YEARS! That boy would have you calling him Ishimaru-san until and unless you MARRIED him. Hina at least makes sense, she's very friendly like that, but Ishimaru?????
Yeah, it's VERY bizarre. I get that surnames/honorific stuff is just a factor that often gets lost in translation, but, not to be a weeb about it, it's one of my biggest pet peeves. In a language which _is_ so particular about how and why people refer to each other in certain ways, I feel like having it actively erased does genuinely sand off some of the character nuance that informs you on what they're like.
...i felt SO called out when you brought up homestuck. seriously i was one of those people, i kept up with the orenronen LP thru tumblr mirrors, so I’m basically a 10yo fan by now. as such i just want to thank you for this retrospective, it captures so many of my thoughts back when I first experienced DR (and today in 2022, when I was watching a LP of sdr2 for the first time in years). Some thoughts:
-I agree with the SHSL note, maybe it’s nostalgia talking but I always thought SHSL captured this really zany, comical feel that the school itself has, like thinking seriously a school gathering all the most talented kids in one place and placing them into these unbending unchanging roles as “shsl idol” is so absurd it’s funny. I think a title like “ultimate” doesn’t quite catch that feeling of absurdity.
-Speaking of, a big component of DR that captured me and I think a good chunk of others as well is that absurdist comedy, often veering into shock humor (for better or worse). DR exaggerates and overexaggerates and then overexaggerates those overexaggerations, and I think that can lead into very powerful narratives (for example, the narrative that talent is innate and hard work can not surpass raw talent is undone compellingly by just how grotesque hope’s peak treats its reserve course, how it locks its talented students into their talents despite some of them not liking those talents in the first place, etc. even junko’s insistence on despair works because the world DR is set in is already so entrenched into this ridiculous black and white thinking). That use of shock value and exaggeration can also lead to nasty, cruel, and really unjustifiable segments such as the narrative’s treatment of chihiro and fukawa as well, but i think that insistence on playing up the absurd, the ridiculous, the polarization, is why you can’t feel neutral about DR or even parts of DR. It’s usually either you hate it or you really enjoy it
- i agree about naegi as a protagonist - while I enjoyed him in his own way when you compare him to other protags he tends to fall short. I tend to favor sdr2 over DR so that does bias me, but compared to someone like hinata, it felt like they really toned naegi down so that the player could have someone to project on, whereas hinata has a very solid identity outside of being the player character, if that makes sense
- agreed with everything about ch2 and ch3, thank you for discussing ch2 especially in a really thoughtful and respectful manner. I won’t rehash discourse I was embroiled in in 2013 of all years but suffice to say DR has a real problem of punching down at marginalized and vulnerable identities/populations rather than punching UP
- i was a fan of fukawa and especially the despair sisters, I really really enjoyed junko because she was the culmination of every single terrible awful thing a person could do and she enjoyed it, it was just a really new character type for me to see with a girl, like the hilarity of the most evil awful person in the world basically being a girlboss influencer is just incredible. on a more serious note, i hadn’t really read her as a defeatist before this video - if anything more of an accelerationist because she was so bored, she wanted to break the world and she created a terrorist cell and all to do that. she’s the ultimate (cough) condemnation of the world of hope’s peak, a person so blessed with analytical talent that it ruins her life, her relationships, even her very identity and personality, that she, enabled by the school’s resources, manages to end the world as we know it. to me it makes sense that the obsession with talent and success that hope’s peak symbolizes is the downfall of the world itself, made personal and concrete and real in a character like junko. some real biting commentary that is so much more fleshed out in sdr2 and dr0, and I think that powerful thematic element is one of the lasting impacts dr has had on me, where even 10 years from when I first experienced it, I still think back on it and appreciate it. DR can be so trashy and frustrating and downright unplayable and yet these parts really shined and made the game an overall positive experience for me
- junko was so popular back in 2012-13, everyone was making fan art and cosplay even if they disliked her. She was That Girl. She and komaeda carried this franchise on their back in terms of thematic weight and even just memes and I’ll argue about this til the day I die. Legendary characters fr
- thank you again for making these videos, I really appreciated your input as an old time fan, your inclusion of the making and history of dr, and your poignant reflections on each chapter and especially the game itself as an argument against giving up and giving in to the idea that the world is hopeless or that we cannot make it better. thinking of junko as a defeatist and naegi and friends ultimately triumphing over her attitude is really interesting. overall a very thoughtful and moving video :)
Chihiro's story, from a biased perspective, feels like it could win whether or not he discovered that he was female, male, etc. I consider him to be male not because he was biologically born with the genitalia but because the writing implies that he wanted to be considered male but couldn't due to the bullying and stigma. To me, this is a story regarding toxic masculinity. Chihiro felt he wasn't "strong" enough. He went to Mondo (the embodiment of what he believed he had to be like) for help to improve. But the kicker is that . . . Mondo was far from "strong". Mondo didn't believe in himself or the role he was placed in either. He believed that Chihiro was far stronger than he ever could be. Chihiro wanted to come out to his friends about his preferred gender and was building the confidence towards it in the midst of tragedy. I would think his story would resonate with the trans community whether he was trans or not and I feel like that is great as he was never said to be wrong for what he was doing. Everyone's reactions to the situation is influenced by the culture and the time period this game is set in. His classmates are trying to be respectful. They don't know absolutely everything. The sewing and toolkits, the bathroom regulations, and the inspection of Chihiro's body are all points that show that this story is set in a different place and time. If Chihiro is a boy, he's a boy. If Chihiro is a girl, she's a girl. If Chihiro is both or neither, then they're both or neither. Etc. What's most important to me, in this case, is that Chihiro is not considered to be less of a person.
But on the matter of the derogatory term used towards Genocider Syo. Yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaah. Not cool, localisation team. Not cool.
I like the way you tackle this game all throughout. The personality you put into it and the perspectives you give are profound and got me to ramble a bunch of unnecessary comments to myself regarding how much your points work thematically.
Exactly. Can we stop seeing transsexual undertones where there are not
also are we just like.. not gonna ignore the fact alter ego in SDR2 literally refers to chihiro as "father?" it's literally an ai based off them, if anyone knew anyrhiny about what chihiro wanted to present as, I'd probably be alter ego
Junko Stan here and i wanna just say ur analysis on junko is soooooo good. I totally agree with you and ur thoughts on here but! Her "Motives" are sorta explained if you have read the Danganronpa Zero Novels + Danganronpa 3: The anime edition. For anyone who hasn't read the novels and doesn't care
Spoilers!
Junko's motives are simply boiled down to her Talent being her downfall, her actual true talent is Super High School Level Analytical Prowess. She can analyze people and predict their possible choice making life incredibly boring for her but despair is unpredictable (she does this in the anime multiple times lol). Death and Tragedy can strike at any moment and she lives off that. it's like a stimulation to her boring empty life. As it states in game she hurts her classmates and her own sister because it causes her despair and wants to see them succumb to it as well. Her whole morals and her actions are in entirety a very fucked up form of self-harm and I love her character for that. Junko's actions and motives are very hard to grasp but i find it somewhat human, to crave excitement, stimulation and a freedom from endless bordem (as someone w/hardcore ADHD). She's an incredibly interesting character who simply drove herself insane over time and at the end, grew bored with the one thing she craved. Junko enoshima my beloved
Oh no worries, I'm familiar with both Zero and Zetsubou-hen, lol. Just wanted to keep things constrained to what was currently available at the time of this game's release, when talking about it, is all. I don't think I'll do a standalone video about Zero in this retrospective, should it continue, but I'll definitely be going deeper into DR3 at a later point, and probably talk a bit _about_ Zero at that time.
I feel like an often overlooked part of how badly they fumbled Chihiro's death was despite knowing each other for weeks/months prior, everyone just miraculously flawlessly switches pronouns once Chihiro is outted. Which NEVER happens. Even if you choose to be intentionally disrespectful towards chihiro's identity and corpse, the memory alone should have had the other characters going "and she- wait no he-". It was also very odd how dismissive that Sakura was with Chihiro's gender when Sakura admits that she herself has struggled with people believing that she was a girl because of her muscular nature. Idk literally none of the way that trial got handled ever sat right with me. 😬
weeks/months? wasnt it just mere days?
i do get your point about the quick pronoun switch, but i thought it was only mere days, i could be wrong though
I actually cook Chihiro the complete opposite way. I’ve had only minor gender identity issues (until I realized the whole thing was dumb and didn’t actually affect who I was so I stopped worrying) but I took it well. Chihiro is portrayed sympathetically, characterized as mentally strong and the resulting violence clearly comes from jealousy and insecurity. By not explicitly making Chihiro trans it made the idea of gender identity far more approachable for 9th grade me. It was technically my first real exposure to the idea along with my bi and eventually trans drum major that year. I personally found it a great introduction to this issue though I can see how it might be grating for others!
What a thorough recap and refreshing analysis!
One of my favorite little bits about Sakura’s trial is the little piece of character development for Togami; in addition to it causing him to finally fully take a stand against Monokuma and start working with the rest of the crew, he also finally faces and realizes the consequences of not considering others’ feelings. Kirigiri really slaps him in the face (metaphorically, unlike Asahina lol) when she makes him realize that his refusal to think emotionally actually made his understanding of the case *weaker* and it’s just such a cool moment imo. Togami is one of my favorite characters because of those little moments where his armor cracks, which is funny considering I can’t stand people like him in real life.
That part you went into with Celeste is actually another great part about this game. Unlike the beta design, it's pretty linear, with very few chances in the story to make a choice, and even fewer chances where it effects anything. But who you spend your free time with can greatly change your bond with someone, especially when they are someone who is a victim or a murderer. Stuff you learn about them in these events can come back later in the story, such as Leon's events giving you a better idea on who he is and where his thoughts lie, helping you realize why he would accept Sayaka's offer or how tragic his execution is; Junko's revealing more about who she truly is and what she personally went through before certain twists; Chihiro's foreshadowing to not only his true self, but also with Alter Ego; why Hifumi would trust Celeste in the first place through some of the very few substance to his free time events, so on and so forth. Depending on who you spend your time with, your playthrough will ultimately be the same as any other's thanks to the linear nature of the game, but each player's experience is ultimately different.
22:30 To be fair, the modern voice of Winnie the Pooh, Jim Cummings, also voices a lot of villains, including SatAM Robotnik. XD
Mukuro Ikusaba. The Sixteenth student hiding somewhere in this school. The one they call the Ultimate Despair... Watch out for her. (repeat ad infinitum)
(Also, I'd like to note that I personally consider DR1 to only have 5 chapters; "chapter 6" is an extension of chapter 5, not its own thing, in my opinion)
as someone with did, im so glad you touched on how ableist the media is towards us with it 😭 we are normal and just as much as people as anyone else, and its always annoying when people view us as awful people or something for just having the disorder. so thank you for touching on it 🙏🏼
The minute this started I knew Celeste was gonna be the "I had a crush on" one. Good taste by the way.
Oh god, are people starting to be able to read me like that? 😰 Lmao
She's eye-catching. Junko will always be #1, but Celeste is an immediate and obvious #2.
THE LEON THING WAS A TRANSLATION THING? oh that makes SO much more sense now! i have seen so many western lets players mock how stupid and easy this is, so knowing how it would've easily been missed in japan makes it better.
Its odd how many people dont pick up on that haha
I immediately was like “well, if I saw numbers that actually spelt something in french backwards I would never pick up on it” XD
what... did you think it was? 😅
Hey, I really appreciate the kind of channels like yours rambling about whatever niche they take a profound interest in, if just for as niche, but dedicated and loyal a fanbase to ever see it. It’s something little a TH-camr can boast - talking about what they truly love and find compelling, unlimited in the purview of their curiosity. Don’t ever stop, dude, I love seeing you do what you love, it inspires me. It’s something I aspire to be able to do at some point. Hugs
As a cis male myself, I actually would be really interested in a video discussing why Chihiro and his role in chapter 2 made you so uncomfortable, I'd like to get to know the experiences that this story didn't do justice and what about it was done poorly.
Often when it comes to the discourse surrounding Chihiro, it's always so much of a lack of understanding or wanting to understand from both sides of the argument that it's hard to really see the substance of either.
As someone who was, for lack of a better phrase, not onboard with the whole "Chihiro is trans and that's final" debacle, I'm more interested in why you and others seem to gravitate towards that and what that means for you.
And seeing someone on that side of the spectrum who actually understands the context here and simply and *respectfully* does not like what is presented, I'm more interested in your take on the whole thing quite a bit. I think it would make for an educational and thought-provoking topic, and you'd certainly have me convinced.
Hey! Thanks for leaving this comment in good faith, it's honestly refreshing. I apologize if my response is a bit long, but these are my thoughts. They're not entirely comprehensive, though, my brain is frankly mush after a long week and I'm sure other trans people would have more to add, lol.
For me, it's almost entirely about the way it's addressed by the characters themselves. The comically exaggerated reactions, the screaming, the groping of Chihiro's body post-mortem - all of it feels very...invasive and grody, I suppose? I fully understand and acknowledge that the narrative never paints Chihiro as trans (merely as someone who _does_ identify male but chooses to escape a perception of weakness by appearing "female"), but it's less about the actual character and more the prerogative of the writers in how they handled said character, if that makes sense?
This is a wildly different topic, but to sort of illustrate what I'm getting at - I'd say a comparable example would be something like, say...a show where _nudity_ gives female characters power. Now, some might argue the constant ogling of the girls' bodies is gross fanservice catering to objectification/etc. And some might argue in response that it has a canonical explanation for why, within the story's internal logic, it makes sense. And it does! Within the story's own logic. But the story's logic is, itself, dictated by the author who is writing it, who can choose to make it any way they want to, so then that leaves us with the conclusion that regardless of its functionality *within* the story, a person still had to write said story, and they can certainly get things very wrong, or make specific decisions based on stereotypes, misinformation, etc.
A common stereotype of trans people in Japan is that they're all just gay men or crossdressers, for example. And rarely ever is their desire to actually be seen as their chosen identity acknowledged. Therefore, though I can't prove this was the DR team's thinking, it wouldn't at all be uncommon for a writer ignorant of trans issues to write a character who partakes in experiences/actions _very_ similar to the trans experience (dressing more comfortably, using different gendered pronouns than those they were assigned at birth, taking countermeasures to avoid being outed if they "pass" in most settings, etc.) but assume something incorrectly about that experience (the idea that trans women aren't genuine, or are lying to themselves to "avoid weakness" etc., something that has its own unfortunate implication considering they're equating femininity to weakness inherently).
On top of all that, you have the characters immediately switch from saying "she" to "he" about Chihiro after the reveal, before they even know Chihiro's reasons for dressing femininely in the first place. At that point, they don't even know the backstory/that Chihiro still identifies as cis, because it doesn't show up until the chapter's end, but pointedly begin to refer to them _oppositely_ to how they generally seemed to be most comfortable, prior to this. It just seems, at the very least, extremely inconsiderate of them all, given that.
Top it all off with some of the grodier implications/lines, like Monokuma "outing" someone against their will, Togami saying something about Chihiro's "female body" being "incongruous" (which is just...deeply upsetting to an actual trans audience, many of whom likely deal with dysphoria around their body), and the constant implication that Chihiro's body makes their gender *undeniably male* and it's all just very cruel seeming. Not to say that I expect much in the way of trans rep or sensibility from an anime game from 2010, granted, but it's still worth criticism imo, at least.
@@NezumiVA I just woke so I might be a little rambly here sorry 😅 there’s been quite a few Japanese games to my knowledge that have had characters that scratch the surface of trans stuff before doubling back on tired tropes and generally being creepy about those characters that I think could have been handled better if the writers had trans people on their team. It feels like a cis writer who has heard what a trans person is and then assumed everything else about them from their personal comprehension without checking any sources from the people they are trying to write about because “ooo what a quirky character trait they think they’re not the gender we see them as and in my godly unshakeable opinion *are*”. A character from persona 4 I won’t spoil goes through similar shit from their supposed friends, including the player character (oof and I hate when supposed role playing games only give me bigoted answers (or a “joke” supportive answer that the other characters laugh at me for) for that matter it’s like I’m seeing the writers biases on display). Anyways I love these games so it hurts all the more when it reminds me: “ah, yes. Bigots made this...” which is also how I feel about Harry Potter these days...
@@NezumiVA not to mention the way they die (that being the murderers reason for killing them) is so incredibly eerily similar to real life murders of trans people and the "trans panic" defense....
NezumiVA while I still think the allegories to trans people in this game is presumptuous as hell and that the only reason this came to be was because people expected the same representation V3 gave, I really understand your point unlike other people who make the same ones.
While I get this is a killing game and that it doesn't really care about character arcs, honestly that's one of my main problems with the games, and problems like this could be so much better handled if they just didn't kill chihiro prematurely. I can brainstorm a scenario where instead of mondo breaking down, or at least not killing them, he could in some way make a point that strength doesn't just come from masculinity. Mondo himself is an example of this, he has many traits one would consider masculine but doesn't consider himself truly strong because he can't get over his mistake. Unlike chihiro who's at least trying to rectify their insecurity. This already fixes so many problems and unintentional messages that I know damn well the writers didn't intend. Not only that, but if continued, at least until chihiro's arc is actually finished. and even if she wasn't trans, I'd argue it would be an amazing symbol of gender identity, showing that you don't have to be feminine or masculine to be a real man or a real woman. (Which is an issue I see so much online)
And there you have it, pretty much all the issues with that part solved with (what I assume to be) the original writers intent intact. Only difference is the limitation of having to kill someone in this game which kills half of the potentially good stuff in the series tbh.
@@NezumiVA (I'm not the original commenter so sorry to barge in but)
That is a good explanation of the topic I feel like. I was always a part of "Chihiro is not trans" gang, but I haven't really thought about the trans-coding, and trans-adjasent things.
And yeah, now that I think about it, even if Chihiro preferred to be identified as male, it was kinda insensitive of the cast to call Chihiro "him" before learning all the circumstances.
Though... I guess it checks out with what you said about japan at that time?
I mean, as insensitive as it is, it's in character for the cast, and for the writers. It's like a very old book with some spicy racist stuff, and as insensitive as it is, we can all agree that for the times, it was normal both for the author and the cast.
But, about Chihiro. What I got from the game is: "Chihiro was bullied as male, so tried to hide as a female. However, Chihiro isn't comfortable being a female either, and doesn't really even connect with girls as friends that much. So then, Chihiro wants to come out as cis (which is pretty ironic) and grow as a person, saying that yeah, boys can be weak, but Chihiro will get better, and people won't laugh at him anymore!"
So back when I played this game, with no idea about much LGBT stuff, that felt really empowering! I mean, I'm a cis guy, and I always had a bit of trouble with physical exercise, for various medical reasons. I remember being teased and such for it, and I remember looking at girls with jealousy, since they had to do waaaay less work, doing less than half of the exercises. I thought about how nice it must be to be a girl.
And our teacher was all manly and masculine, telling guys what they should do and what they shouldn't do, and...
I dunno, I just really connected with Chihiro because of that. I could relate to those thoughts and to some of those struggles, just like Trans people identify with some trans characters.
So, I hope my perspective kinda helps you see while people try to justify stuff in chapter 2. I mean, I don't like it when those people get agressive, and I don't fully share their worldview, but... Yeah.
ADORED this video! i'm still active in the dr fandom and the shit takes are insurmountable. this video was like a breath of fresh air, although i wish there were more topics you touched on- like the colourism and the societal context, particularly the criticism of the japanese educational system. i'm very much looking forward to what you have to say about sdr2! i've been binging ur videos all day, thank you for your wonderful thoughts- also the little voices u did were great. keep it up queen
That's definitely fair! Fwiw, the SDR2 script definitely tackles the educational system stuff a bit more! Discussions of colorism in particular will become very relevant when I hit V3 so I'll definitely try to bring it up more broadly about the series when I get there. Thank you for the feedback!
Yeah I noticed the cast got whiter as the series went on (including Toko getting a little whiter between 1 and UDG), and it feels like there are some cultural things I don’t get as an uneducated Briton
I get the SHSL title, but Ultimate just sounds so much to the point, and gives much more of an appropriate vibe to how powerful these characters are, I mean most are not just impressive for a highschool level, they are already the best in the world or close to it, sakura and celeste never losing come to mind, toko being a best seller, nekomaru training world class athletes. They are far beyond just a high school level, so to me, the SHSL title almost undermines their abilities, so I prefer the Ultimate title since it feels much more appropriate, even though I was a fan since the fan translation days.
Also man, the nicknames are pretty cute lol.
Long rant about trial 3 and people who write it off, feel free to skip until TLDR lol :
Id also like to point out for chapter 3, Ive seen a lot of reactions to it ,and it's always one of the 2, either, super early guess and saying how it's super obvious and easy or, completely having no clue what's going on until almost the end. I honestly think that while yes, you can guess the killer early, the mystery there is not that terrible or easy, it's just, made in such a way, where some people guess it early because of some context clues.
but for those who do not, the trial takes them for a crazy ride because of how many red herrings and things there are in that trial. Just because you guessed it early and didn't enjoy it because of that, does not mean that happened for everyone, I really enjoyed seeing the confused players go through this trial, and slowly pieces it together. as for the pacing, this is the sort of thing you will never get everyone with, coz while its slow for those who know, it's often kinda fast and jumpy for those confused who are trying to follow along, it's just something you can say about any trail if you already figured it out. and Ive seen players who say it's too fast because they have to go through a lot of points quite fast, and early on it can be hard to keep everything in mind and connect it all.
Ive seen some players say the same thing about chapter 2 and 4 of this game and chapter 1/4/5 of the second game which is quite crazy for me, but that's just how some people are, for them it's too slow, coz they just wanna go in there, point the finger at X and get it over and done with coz they already figured it out. So I really disagree with the, "it's really obvious and therefore way too slow for me" coz well, ive seen a ton of people not get it and the pacing for them was good, if it was any faster, it would lose a lot of these players. And sure overexplaining might be a bit boring for those in the know, but you never wanna completely lose people in these sort of games coz you glossed over something, where they completely don't know whats going on, which well, even with the over explanation, still happens, think like 30% of LP's get stuck on some major part and just get very confused to the point they call bullshit on it, anderson with the sprinklers come to mind, but there is a ton of others too. just as ive seen a some people complain that every case in the first 2 games is too basic and easy.
also, while it's true that celeste acts weirdly at the start of the case, it does play into her character, she constantly said before that that she would adapt and do anything to survive, so her suddenly grovelling at her killers foot is literally that ideology she mentioned throughout the game, it's just that this is the first time we see it in action, and so a lot of people think of it weird, when if you analyse deeper, it's honestly not weird at all for her, I think if there was another scene or two with her doing this sort of adaption beforehand, this would be seen by most as perfectly inline with her. but instead people really just react off their instinct and think "oh this is not how she normally reacts, something must be up". Honestly, if they slightly patched this up in one way or another, I think the case would be one of the top in the games, instead, for me now, it's just a decent case that I enjoy.
lastly, id like to point out that even in cases where you know who the killer is, your job is still to prove it and get everyone to agree to that, which is where a lot of fun comes from, both DR and AA games have cases where you know the killers AA final case is for example mega obvious, but the whole fighting a hard opponent and proving their crime part is what really is enjoyable about those sort of cases. so I think with a strong opponent like celeste, who sends you off the truth multiple times, is also a good quality, and I think it can stand like that as well if a player already knows the killer, and ive seen players like this too, where they knew the who, but not the how, and took great pleasure from fighting and beating celeste in this "combat".
so TLDR : 3rd case imo is not as bad as some people like to say, at least from my observations over the years of different lets players playing the case from many different perspectives, all the way from immediately knowing the culprit to not understanding anything until the end of the trial.
for me the weakest case is trial 5, it's a made up trail essentially, and it just... does not work that well, at least case 6 works very well to cover it up, otherwise, Love cases 2,4,6, enjoy 1,3 with 5 being the only meh one for me. ofc I can't go super in detail with every trial this comment is already too long, but ill just say something about every trial.
Case 1 is a solid starting case, as mentioned above, knowing the killer does not spoil a case for me, and as a starting case it works well, similarly to early cases in AA where they specifically go out of the way to show you the killers.
Case 2, I guess I see the problematic aspects, but I like to take it as face value, and what the original intention was, and it was meant to tackle a real issue in Japanese culture, and it did that, sure it doesn't fair well here, but it's out of its culture and we don't have the same strict norms around gender norms as japan does/did, and oh boy does japan have em, this was very controversial/ "brave" when it came out in 2010 in japan, for fighting against the whole men gotta be strong and women gotta be meek, I mean in that culture even saying a man could be weak and emotional was seen as crazy, so showing how that whole culture drove a nice character like chihiro into hiding their true self because they essentially didn't think they were worthy of being a man, looking at mondo for being the "true man", which in the end, ends up with chihiro standing up to his issues while mondo could not. really flipping the whole gender norms on its head. too bad it didn't really translate well over cultures and time and is now just seen as insensitive and crude as it was a legitimate step forward for Japanese culture. But I understand how it looks now to people, so I won't say your wrong to feel like you feel. apart from that, what I really love about this case in gencodier, one of the best DR characters ever, and Byakuyas hard core meddling with the trial, it really puts him up as that smart asshole who will do anything he wants, and him setting up this mystery just to track down who is smart enough to solve it, pinning the MC as a head target, shows how smart and villainous he can be. that alone makes it maybe my second favourite trial of the game, only short to 6.
Case 3, went over already in detail, but I enjoy it for what it is, not super strong, but I like the setup and pay off. you running around while the murder is actively happening, and seeing parts of it with your own eyes are a great part as well.
Case 4, is really solid too, so many twists, a lot of story payoff, togami gets some good character building there. and it plays out very well.
case 5, is kinda a mess, I suppose it's meant to be a mess, but its just not very enjoyable apart from the ending that makes you pick, that's the only really solid point, and it's a strong one, with the wrong ending being so wild and wtf, that it's amazing in its own way. making players pick the ending, even if the bad ending is easily reversible, is nice. and I think that is the one saving grace of it.
Case 6 and the whole ending, is just mindblowing, taking things from literally every part of the game, and building it all into one giant mystery, that is crazy and wacky and amazing. The whole ending twist ive seen often be said as just jumping the shark and making no sense, but I love it, and ties into the game the whole aspect of ultimate despair and ultimate hope very well, as despair upon despair layer themselves on the characters, with a horror I don't think ive seen anywhere else. like the whole truth about behind the killings and the situation at the school is so horrendous, it's truly the ultimate despair, and the characters overcoming it, is truly ultimate hope, sure it's cheesy and overplayed, but I love my danganronpa cheesy and overplayed, so it's perfect for me.
Case 6 was definitely the best ending case out of all the games imo
I hate the "ultimate" title lmao. Quite opposite to you, no character to me seemed that their abilities went beyond that of a regular expert on their field. SHSL I think just fits the themes Danganronpa has of the failures of the school system better and I think undermines the biggest tragedy of the series, that these are just teenagers trying to make their way in life, they may be icredibly talented but they aren't superheroes. They show promise because they have so much more potential and possibility for growth then what they currently embody, and that is why they are the perfect torture victims for someone like Junko who means to show them that in the face of an unpredictable world that doesn't really matter. The title sounds kinda childish and it kinda reminds me of how a high schooler who is caught up in their talents might define themselves as, both in people who are insecure as they think that's all their worth or the people who think they'll one day come to hold the world in the palm of their hand because of it, but what Danganronpa makes the point of proving is that what should matter is the good faith you have in yourself and those around you in spite of anything the outside world might throw at you both good and bad, that you shouldn't rely on labels or expectations like those because when your world comes crashing down and nothing makes sense that's all that will really matter to move you forward
my gripe with how fujisaki was handled is that there were two easy clues they could have used to determine fujisaki was registered as male in the school that didn't include the gross "examination" of his corpse. in chapter 1 they make a point to emphasize how only the girls had locking bathrooms, and how the boys got a toolkit from monokuma while the girls got a sewing kit. both of those things even played a part in case 1. all they had to do was have the kids investigate fujisaki's room and discover these things and then they can continue the trial knowing that his monopad likely also registered him as male, so he could therefore get into the men's changing room. but nope. they HAD to include a scene where the students "investigate" his body so the writers could be like "dont worry guys! hes not trans! hes a cis guy all along and he has cis guy parts! we dont do trans here!"
it just feels gross
Having read this and thought about it, it makes me wonder if Byakuya snagged Chihiro's room key pre-emptively, to avoid checking the room and its contents and make the trial more interesting. Discovering that Chihiro's room was registered as male would make the trial go by way too quickly otherwise. I don't really think he expected Kyoko to just ... tell Sakura to do that. It's still kinda creepy, and I don't think it sits all that well with me these days, but it would be in-line with the story as it was happening.
@@thewrathofrevan5999 remember byakuya also didn't know chihiro was male. his surprise at that fact was part of why makoto stopped suspecting him. he saw mondo coming out of the girl's change room so he assumed chihiro was female until the reveal. its just no one even mentioned checking chihiros room in the investigation so i feel like it was just something the writers forgot about. investigating his room would have given away that twist, but we could always have kyoko do it and reveal it at the trial. like give makoto a tool kit and be like "i found this in chihiros room." or even have mondo take the tool kit but have kyoko discover the bathroom door. and make that a clue. having kyoko take everyone on a field trip to the change room in the middle of the trial also breaks up the flow a little i think
@@pandoratheexplorer8211 wow, I really misremembered what happened here.
@@pandoratheexplorer8211 Aren't the rooms locked up anyway? and wasn't it more simple to just examine the body rather than checking the unreliable bathroom doors that already got misinterpreted in chapter 1?
Although I agree that checking the ID would've been easier, but they wanted to show how kirigiri conducts her investigations and how weird it is for a high school student
@@sasir2013 remember they were able to check maizonos room during the first investigation so the victims rooms are still accessible before the trial. I dont remember if they get locked after the trial or if thats just fanon. Ye leon did mix up the door in case 1 but he was panicked after someone tried to kill him if the students take a few minutes to check out fujisakis door during an investigation they would be able to tell theres no lock easily. Its not like anyone but naegi have a jammed door to our knowledge
Also i maintain kirigiri taking the class on a field trip in the middle of the trial breaks up the pacing. Even if other students were too amatur to investigate fujisakis room we can always have kirigiri go there offscreen and surprise us with the info on the sewing kit/door during the trial. We already established she was weird by showing her inspect the big dent in fujisakis head and future instances (kirigiri finding a note in yamadas pants in ch 3) also reinforce this. so i would rather sacrifice this one gross scene since that characterization is already done later in the game
I've been following you for some time but I haven't ever really interacted openly about how much I love your content- from the time you put into the layout of your work and the writing that in it's way creates a compelling form of storytelling is really incredible. I think the way you described the way danganronpa feels, specifically how it was summarized towards the end, was really well done, I haven't ever been able to put my finger on or explain properly how i feel not just about the first game but the series as a whole in that it has a TON of issues, but it still has so many pros to it's cons that it keeps you coming back. I also appreciate hearing a video essay talk about not just the chihiro problem but the discomfort around how they introduced Jack, it's something I think a lot of fans tend to avoid talking about considering the arguments it starts, coming from another trans person it was something I really needed to hear spoken out loud and I appreciate you a lot for this. With a series so big and based a lot on how people remember it vs how it has aged, it's cool to hear from someone who has a history of loving it as well as recently playing it being able to recognize it's problems and not blindly adoring it. I think this video had a lot of love put into it and it's easy to tell that it's something you'd been wanting to talk about for some time and I believe a lot of people here were happy to hear it. Thank you for this video and I can't wait to see more
Junko as a villain has always been amazing even kodaka admits he thought giving her a backstory would just be lame and he wanted the audience to have no sympathy for her.
Yeah, I hate it when I criticize something I love for handling lgbtq stuff poorly and people take it as me hating it or the characters or whatever. Chihiro is one of my favorite dr1 characters, but the gender thing wasn’t handled very well. The people who come out of the woodwork when you criticize it are the same type of people who get mad when persona 4 and its poor handling of its queer characters is brought up. People need to get that a game can be good but still have serious flaws.
Wow this was so beautiful. There’s an art to retelling a story through words and visuals and you’ve mastered that to make me and the rest of your audience feel something. Like just by the sound of your charming voice we can tell how important and emotional this game is. Admittedly I’ve never had a strong attachment to this game, I respected it for being the first dr game and I’ve never even played it fully, but that changed after this video. It’s a lot more solid than I thought, minus some grievances I had in chapter 2 as well. Your take on Junko was especially cool and not one I’ve heard many people talk about. Spectacular job Nezumi, I’m so glad I’m subscribed to you cause you’re awesome!
I think all your criticism for case 2 is very reasonable. It’s kinda sad for a story with so many great parts to have the kind of blunder that can make people feel that way, hopefully unintentionally
I really, really appreciate that the ultimate (lol) takeaway of this retrospective of the game is about the hope that it embodies. It's grim, it's dark, it's twisted, and it's bleak in places-- the presence of the one blood-soaked room being a monument to all that (especially when you know what transpired there)-- but the point is that even average, everyday people can hold onto hope even DESPITE the odds against it. The point of hope is that it flourishes FROM despair, and the uncertainty of what the future might hold.
In a way I feel like that ties into the poignancy of Hadestown, in the Road To Hell reprise, where Hermes sings sadly, then defiantly, "It's a sad song.... but we sing it anyway". Then going on to explain that we tell sad stories and sing sad songs because there's a part of us that, in the moment, can imagine a happy outcome for the characters, even KNOWING that the end is sad. That in the midst of it, we can dream of a better outcome, of a better world. That human nature is to illogically believe that we can somehow change the outcome that was already predetermined.
And that sometimes, even when there's a sad ending, that hope can still change things for the better.
The kids walking out of the school is the dream of a better outcome than Junko insisted was always waiting for them. And that's the point. We don't play the game to see what happened to the outside world, but to see how these kids survive, how they fight against the encroaching despair, how they change their fate despite the odds against them, and how they accomplish what should have been impossible.
This game is important to me, too, for a lot of the reasons you express here. It wasn't formative for me- I was an adult by the time it came out and ESPECIALLY by the time I discovered it (through that same SA Let's Play, even!)- but it embodies one of the things I firmly believe about the world. And I think you captured The Point(tm) here perfectly. Thank you for this retrospective!
Fun personal anecdote: as a DID system who became fans of the DR games during highschool, our host made a self insert character for herself in the universe (before she was aware of the rest of us.) Coming up with the character's backstory led to our host giving said character DID, only to then go, "oh, i guess this isn't really a self insert character anymore since she has a disorder that I lack. Whoops!"
...so, a few years later, when our host become aware of the system she belongs to... she had a major "ohhh my god" moment in regards to that character lmao
I actually played this for the first time thanks to that Switch port, having tons of interest in it and the series after watching the Game Grumps play it. It was so....wacky and colorful, yet cruel and weird that it had my attention out of the gate. Playing it, even if I knew how it was going to play out, was extremely enjoyable. The characters are honestly all great and varied, letting you really fall for your favorites and either be devastated or sighing in relief for what ends up happening to them. Their voice acting is no slouch either, even in English. Celestia's break down in Trial 3 genuinely impressed me with how hard that woman was going for what she could have just seen as a "anime visual novel" game. Trial 2 and 4 are my personal favorites being the most compelling to me, especially with Sakura's relationship with Aoi and reading her real suicide note in 4. It actually got me and made me sad for her.
Edit: Just to clarify, I completely get the discomfort of how Chihiro was handled in Chapter 2. Even not having experienced anything like that myself, it's very clear to even me how poorly they were handling it. Even the almost blunt IMMEDIATE pronoun change from everyone just seemed...weird and off. You shouldn't be ashamed of not liking it, because you're right to not like it. Its really shitty. That aspect isn't want grabbed me about the trial, Genocider, Byakuya, and Mondo's eventual reveal were.
I'm currently starting the second game, and I'm interested how I'll feel about it by the end.
Personally the second game is my favorite, (obviously) but how are you liking it so far?
@@misatoholic I actually just beat it over New Years so I've actually been thinking about this. Right now at least, I feel like I like both games equally, the difference being how I like them. I think DR 1 is a much more consistent game overall, but doesn't reach the heights it could, where as DR 2 reaches and sometimes grabs at those heights, but not without some issues along the way, if that makes sense.
To give an example, I just replayed the third trial last night. Mikan's breakdown, Nagito's sarcasm, and Gundham...well...being Gundham were great and amazingly performed! This on top of mini games that felt more involved kept me invested in the trial. However....1) They killed off Ibuki, a really likeable funny character for seemingly no other reason than shock. Like she doesn't even have a strong connection to Mikan or something. 2) the logistics of the crime immediately crumble under scrutiny. Mikan somehow getting to the music venue the same time as Hajime despite being on the second floor of the hospital...and running into Fuyuhiko... And 3) the crime itself just feels...messy. Which makes sense for Mikan I guess but it means narratively it's not that interesting to follow. In DR1's 3rd Trial I could at least follow it and the confusion made sense. This one felt more sloppy, even from a writing standpoint.
But DR2 was definitely a fun ride. I think the last 3 chapters are great and compelling. While I don't like the WHOLE cast like I did in DR1, I feel much more strongly about the characters in DR 2.
(Sorry if that's too long of a response x3)
My goodness!
This video was so good and well put together I didn't realise it's 2hours long.
As always, thank you for your hard work. 🥰
Another issue I had in case 2 was with Byakuya and specifically how the game handwaves him being extremely suspicious during most of the trial by having him say he'd just point out he saw Mondo leave the crime scene if the other students concluded Byakuya is the killer. For how smart of a person he's portrayed as, this is an incredibly stupid backup plan because by that point, no one would believe him and since the whole system is based on votes, they'd just vote him up and he'd get everyone but Mondo killed, including himself. But no one calls him out on it, so as I said, it's handwaved away. It's just conveniently written that Makoto convinced everyone to write him off as a possible killer and then everyone decided to talk until something happens and it did happen when Mondo slipped up.
Did never understand how dangerously close i was to Junko's view of the world. That's both kinda upsetting ind inpiring. Thank you so much for this video. I hope that it's going to be popular enough for you to make this kind of video about all other games as well.
Good luck.
Okay but despite all that stuff with chihiro and such, I really do like and respect Mondo's character. He kinda just makes some sense to me. I know of some people that absolutely despise him because they thought his intentions were extremely bad and also just because you shouldnt lose that much control of your emotions but it's also like-I feel outbursts like that could really happen with those contrasts, being emotionally unstable, and also probably just never getting to express all of that built up pressure and stuff on Mondo's end. Note that I also like chihiro and that I think they're pretty cool. Those two characters are just really good for me personally
My main thing with a decent amount of cases with this game is that a lot of them seem like cases teenagers could actually make it's swag
Oh yeah also I like Hifumi because that's totally on this topic of the comment 😎
Nothing beats playing all of junkos friendship events in the bonus mode BEFORE playing the actual game and deciding she's your favorite without realizing what kinda game this is
I completely and totally agree with your feelings on the Chapter 2 trial here. I replayed this game about a year ago, and that 'groping gender reveal scene' is absolutely agonizing to sit through. It's unreal how many people I've seen over the years jump through hoops to try and justify that scene. Apparently if Chihiro claims to be a man in some random postgame content then it means that nothing else that happens to them in the entire game can possibly be transphobic, as if Chihiro is an actual real life person here and not a fictional character written as an obvious trans allegory by a team of exclusively cis writers.*
For my part though, as a trans woman who was still very deep in the closet when I first read this story more than a decade ago, the character in the series that I always identified with most was never Chihiro but actually Sakura, the character who constantly gets her gender (and sometimes even humanity) questioned by everyone around her and just kinda has to suffer through and ignore it.
As much as I do appreciate the effort that the writers put into making Sakura and Chihiro somewhat relatable to the average reader, it's still hard for me to say that I like Chihiro as a character, as much as I feel like she falls into the same category for me as most other trans/trans-adjacent characters written by cis people largely ignorant of trans issues. I don't 'like' Chihiro's character as much as I 'sympathize' with her and wish that she hadn't been done so dirty by the larger narrative.
*(Spoilers for V3)
I agree with this. While the character of Chihiro isn't transphobic, I do think that the presentation had tansphobic undertones, whether that be on purpose or a mistake in conveying what the original purpose was. Personally, the way I interpret it, is Chihiro is biologically male, but has a complex due to bullying because guys should be strong or some bullshit like that and as a result, he dresses like a girl, but wants to combat this, but wants to eventually become comfortable enough to start presenting as male again (although, peoplecan interpretit howeverthey like). This does wonders for Chihiro's character, but they definitely could have handled it better.
@@ohthisguyagain5386 Yeah, I think Chihiro themselves is a really inspiring character, and I feel that they really only make sense to me as either male both biological and gender-wise, or being in the phase of questioning their gender identity. Since they die without getting to speak for themselves more clearly it’s not completely obvious which of these is the case, but I still think that Chihiro wanting to be male is what is clearly implied. Either way though, Chihiro to me is not the problem just as Genocide Jill is not the problem to me, it’s the way the characters in the game respond to these characters and the way the game presents them. I don’t believe they are necessarily intending to be transphobic but it still comes from an ignorant viewpoint on the part of the writers that makes the writing in many areas really not age well. The fact that not a single character ever even considers what gender Chihiro wanted to be referred to as, instead only changing their language based on what they know of Chihiro biologically (other than Hifumi), that’s the biggest problem to me. It’s not exactly hard to believe due to the ignorance so many have, but it still makes the game feel a lot more dated than any other chapters in the game do, that and the whole “schizo” thing. 😫
Whether intentionally or not, it’s still a problem and it still is harmful and I don’t blame people for feeling uncomfortable about the writing during this chapter.
@@jordandwiggins1026 yeah, I think if it was remade today, it would be a lot better. We had some improvement with -SPOILERS FOR V3 CHAPTER 3- Korekiyo having a tulpa rather than DID during the chapters big reveal, and while it could have been cleared up better and still isn't the best representation for people with mental health issues or with incest things (which actual is serious topic), it shows that Spike Chunsoft at least has an idea of where the fucked up
As somebody who loves chapter 2 i can still definiltly agree that that scene is revolting
@@finnvaneekelen4966 it's one of the things the anime gets right. Kyoko just straight up tells everyone what she found out from her body search in the trial room. And in the situation they're in, a body search is necessary, so I dont blame her for accidentally finding out
Man, talking about Chihiro is deeply upsetting at times, mostly because people will immediately assume that even if you just take issue with how Chihiro's story is written then you're just an idiot with no reading comprehension that just doesn't get that Chihiro was never intentionally written to be a trans woman. Like, yes, we know that, can you stop assuming people who take issue with this section of the story are just confused and actually listen for once???
Eeeyup, exactly.
Big chihiro discussions give me a headache admittedly.
That's why I usually just compromise with they/them so that everyone can not comment on it 😭
Though I'm sure some people still get comments for that. I just think chihiro gender discussions make no sense most of the time. Either way there's still a very clear gender presentation and identity issue that chihiro deals with trans or not it feels like to me. Though others will feel differently based on their experience or lacktherof.
Here I am once again binge watching your danganronpa retrospectives lol
As far as Junko's shallow motivations and being compared to the villains in Funny Games, the term that I think of is "Force of Nature" type villain. Villains whose motivations are obscured by not having any tangible reason or backstory behind them. Sure it can feel like a cop-out, but I think of Ledger's Joker as the most popular example of this. The lack of reason is part of the mystique; and it works when the force that they serve is a relatable and terrifying adversary on it's own (chaos or despair).
It’s interesting seeing which characters people chose to befriend and why. I started with Celeste because duh, incredible design and ludicrous character. Then I chose Sakura because she really seemed like she needed a friend. Then finally I chose Byakuya because I thought he’d make it to the end and I thought he might have some answers
this was fantastic and i would LOVE to see you cover more danganronpa content- the second game is one of my favorite pieces of media of all time
this video made me realise why i love danganronpa so much and why, even after watching many playthroughs of the games, i still went back to play all 3 main line games and loved them intensely. this game series really has changed my outlook on certain things and has provided me with a variety of lovable and eccentric characters, some of which lived, most who died. even though they're not real, they're real to me and their actions and lives will stick with me for a while to come.
my favorite chapter is celestia, she will always be my favorite..
also..about chihiro...i 100% understand
but..for me..chihiro was one of the first queer figure's i ever saw...in any media..so my relation to the second trial is kinda diferent..
as someone who also has alters, you perfectly summed up my thoughts on syo and i want to thank you for that! ofc i know the trope is as harmful and overdone as a trope can get but syo is my favorite character in the game because of how well she exists to basically subvert the trope, plus she is a complete riot even outside of the murderer stuff. you put my feelings into words and as someone who was a little embarrassed to like her you have definitely made me feel seen :]
I think it does help that Syo is allowed to develop as a character later on in the franchise
I think the localization's ultimate terminology worked really well with the despair/luck/hope themes in 1 and 2 in my opinion.
I honestly thought Sakura's death in the game was both the saddest and most meaningful. Totally my favorite character in the entire game, despite her goofy appearance.
The difference between SHL and Ultimate:
Keebo, a sentient, autonomous state of the art automaton, is an Ultimate robot. A 'super highschool level' robot is a vibrator with a raspberry pi and a 1st place science fair ribbon stuck to it
That's true LOL
What?
@@IchibanOjousama the ultimate robot would be out of all robots in existence made by the smartest people on the planet. The super highschool level robot would be out of all the robots made by highschoolers. It's a joke
Having to spell out "sch*zo" as a *clue* is wild. Damm. 💀
Pretty sure that look that Junko gave just before she died was a look of confusion. Which is karma to her because instead of dying filled with despair, she died filled with confusion as to why the machine wasn't working.
46:29 I get the feeling the Hangman's Gambit wasn't "DID" because short acronyms would make the game too easy, but if that were the case, I would've just used "SPLIT," as in split personality. Heck, it would be an easy thing to change in re-releases because none of the English VAs use the offending term anyway.
Your criticisms of the handling of Chihiro’s gender in Ch2 are sadly spot-on. Honestly, with a few nudges, I could see it be a fairly decent (or at the very least not entirely awful) transmasc narrative.
I.E. Chihiro is afab but really wants to be able to embrace their true, male identity. However, they’re deeply insecure about their body and lack of strength and remain closeted because of it. Monokuma lists them as male to antagonize their insecurity, while Mondo chooses to respect Chihiro’s decision to remain closeted for the time being and doesn’t want to out them.
Certainly not perfect, but the struggle involved with feeling unable to properly express one’s true self is a struggle that very much speaks to me.
As a trans guy, and someone who played this game while closeted, and i really REALLY resonated with Chihiro. like a LOT. i know its majority in bad taste but i like the subtlety of at least mondo respecting that Chihiro hasn't come out about their secret yet and changing it as to not ruin that for him. its sad but i like how he didn't take coming out away from him. Idk it can be seen as disrespectful and respectful at the same time but.. if i wouldve died before coming out i wouldnt want to have been outed by a friend yaknow? i guess its just like, too personal a thing. IDK!! i love chihiro and it makes me happy seeing how he wants to be seen as stronger and i really REALLY resonate with that :) all i know is that it DEFFINETLY couldve been SOOOOO much worse.. im glad it wasnt COMPLETELY in bad taste.
It's been forever since I wrote a paper, so this will be more of a stream of consciousness.
Back when I discovered Danganronpa I didn't even know what a trans person was, but looking back Chihiro was definitely a crack on my eggshell. Even though I wouldn't discover my own identity for 5 years I still felt something of a spiritual kinship with Chihiro. In high school I took 3 computer programming classes and even had a SHSL Programmer shirt which was my favorite shirt. I would boast about being the weakest guy in class, while secretly resenting it. I hated working out in public where people could see me.
While Chihiro is "Canonically Cis", I think that this is only because of how socially conservative Japan is. Anime and Manga has a lot of Trans Coded characters who are "canonically cis" and it is incredibly annoying. It's like the queer Coded characters of the Hays code era of film in the states who were "Canonically Cis-Het".
I've seen people claim Chihiro is trans fem, and I've also seen people claim Chihiro is coded trans masc. Personally I relate to the interpretation of a transfem Chihiro, but I also actually really like reading "Chihiro coming out as a guy" as them being read as transmasc coded. I'm really glad that both transmasc and transfem people can relate to Chihiro's experience.
Unfortunately a TON of people claim it’s “transphobic” and “transmisogynistic” to headcanon Chihiro as transmasc or non-binary, and honestly I have no idea why.
@@miamafalda1118 probs people having a strong connection to Chihiro and using their character as a way to process their own identity, so now a rejection of their interpretation is misconstrued as a rejection of them personally. It happens a lot in less divisive subject matter so it isn’t that surprising if you know what’s up.
@@TorrentialStardust That's true. The thing is, many non-binary and transmasc people could easily relate to Chihiro's story too, which is why I think it's best to just respect people's headcanons.
@@miamafalda1118 exactly!
On japanese media back then (hell even now, I dare say) you were either a minority and the butt of the joke "haha look at this MAN saying he's got a maiden's heart and calling himself she/her, point at them and laugh!" Or a minority and the seediest more degenerate fetish for someone to salivate over (and also the butt of a tasteless joke) "wow you telling me that GIRL is actuall GUY?? A bio guy???? And they got a big butt AND a penis??? Haha I'm not gay, but I'll hit it xDxDxD"
Finished the game, currently playing school mode and wishlisted the other games. Hyped to unlock everything in the other games and see what they offer. Officially one of my favorite game franchises.
22:35 funny that you say this because in the german dub of the anime we have the german version of spongebob as the voice of monokuma.
I know the TH-cam comments suck, but I wish you had talked about the trans stuff more! Because I love you (platonically) and I'm NB and I appreciate when people point out bad representation
Thank you for talking about the parallels of Chihiro to various trans experiences. As someone who’s transfemme, I often find people being extremely insensitive or downright transphobic about any criticism of how it’s handled and I hope you faced minimal negative comments on the topic
Fun fact: in chapter 3, despite being more or less obvious perpetrator, Celeste actually didn't make that much mistakes in her own part of the plans and had all the chances in winning the trial. She made only 2 mistakes - the "those guys" remark and when she didn't take Taka's note from Hifumi(but i would like to point out that she probably tried, because she's not that stupid after all, but it never occured to her that Hifumi would hide the note in the freaking PANTS). Oh, i'm sorry. Not 2, but 3 mistakes. The third one - making Hifumi her partner. Tho whole problem arised from Hifumi's slopiness and inadequacy in completing the required tasks. It weren't Seleste who botched everything up - it was Hifumi. Hifumi was too delusional, hence he went too far in making the costume: the blueprints was way more elaborate than needed and the costume became too overloaded with stuff, when the only thing it should have done is to hide the face and general body size. Hifumi was too hastly and bold, hence the bad hit at Ishimaru, which broke the wristwatch, and the carelessly way of retrieving the note, leaving the scrap behind. Finally, Hifumi was too stupid, hence the use of insane amounts of blood which later covered his glasses and unnoticed blood tracks from the dolly.
See? Hifumi almost destroyed everything he touched in that case. If he was just a little bit more reliable, even if that erased only 1 of the before-mentioned leads, the Celeste's plan would have probably succeded.
And i still unironically think that she should have used Ishimaru as a coinpirator - proper and thorough "moral compass" would probably never made those mistakes.
So the only grave mistake Celeste made was not "those guys" remark or the note taking, but the fact that she chose Hifumi.
Thank you all for coming at my ted talk.)
Awesome video! You brought up some great points and I can definitely understand your stance on chapter 2. While I wasn't bothered by the Chihiro reveal back then during my first experience of it, looking back I can definitely understand why it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. The fact that suddenly everyone immediately jumps on to calling Chihiro by he/him pronouns right after they find out that he was biologically male was quite insensitive (though I guess the game did come in 2010), like when Hifumi just straight up says, "So 'she' was actually a 'he'." Honestly, the only one who even tried to ask about Chihiro's gender was Byakuya (props to him, I guess?), who questioned "Assuming his handbook did, in fact, list his gender as male, then yes, that [being able to access the boy's locker room] would be true." (though unfortunately, he's using he/him pronouns), with Monokuma confirming the thought. I'm not actually sure if Byakuya was even saying this out of any respect (he DID just mess with Chihiro's goddamn corpse so where are our priorities at rn), but I guess it's something (maybe) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I personally do not believe that the writing for chapter 2 was intended to have trans and/or transphobic connotations and I'm pretty sure the narrative was supposed to be talking about gender norms and toxic masculine standards, not gender identity, but unfortunately, it did end up presenting itself that way to a ton of people (thus, inadequate writing) and because of that, stuff like the trans Chihiro debate exists (which I'm kind of sick and tired of now). All in all, this is a wonderfully made video and I can see you put a lot of effort in it. I really hope you'll make one covering sdr2 in the future! :>
Same, I prefer to just focus on the actual story it tried to tell, but I get why people made the connection and why it can be upsetting. Still love Chihiro though.
It's sad that we can't have conversations about gender expression without a bunch of nasty people leaving nasty comments. Hopefully, one day, people won't be so horrible. These conversations are important and lead to better representation over all.
@@ChaosRose6 No it ain't. It's people like you who feel the need to be hateful towards them for no reason. Go crawl back into your hole loser.
In retrospect, I actually like “Super High School Level” much more than “Ultimate”. It implies that the students still have a ways to go before they’re the best, unlike Ultimate which implies they’re already at the peak of what can be achieved. I know that they already are the absolute best in the story (I.e. Byakuya casually making millions through stock trading because he was board) but I like the idea of it.
So, after a second listen of this retrospective and my own conflicting feelings on Fujisaki as a character, I have to say something. The handling of Fujisaki's insecurities coupled with the blatant misgendering of them as a character is ultimately (hah, I'm funny) emblematic of the blatant traditional and old school ways of Japan as a culture. Coupling that with how they handle Fukawa and Sho, it's a double whammy of irresponsible mishandlings and gross representation of two demographics, those being LGBT peoples and the mentally ill, that turns what used to be my favorite trial in to an uncomfortable ordeal to sit through.
As much as I like both games, Danganronpa and Persona 4 handled gender identity in a strange and cruel way. As soon as each game's central group finds out one of their own is not the same gender they were assigned at birth, they assume the character is grappling with inner demons and "masquerading" as a different gender as a result of desperation or (wait for it) despair. That's always bothered me. As if their transness(?) _must_ have a concrete reason to exist, and that reason _must_ be tied to their misery - why _else_ would they do something as "insane" as being trans? Surely, through bog-standard character development, they'll be cured of such a bizarre and alien desire to... fuck I dunno, feel okay in their own skin, I guess? I know it was a different time, but both games show their age considerably when it focuses on their trans characters.
THANK YOU! Thank you for making me remember everythink I felt while playing this beautiful game! Thank you for making me cry again over the deaths, twists, ending and even over credits! Thank you for this amazing video! That's the best danganronpa video essay I've ever seen. No other video made me cry before
I have to imagine that Chihiro would've been written a good bit differently if the game had been made, say, 10 years later than it was; the depiction is sympathetic, but yeah, tone deaf as well in many regards. The interesting part to me is that for all Chihiro's talk of "needing to get stronger" and shed their more feminine exterior, when you see the pictures of the characters in their happier school days Chihiro is still visibly female presenting; I'm sure it wasn't thought out this far in the writing, but it kind of makes me wonder if they could be read as trans in the context of a healthier, safer, friendlier school life, whereas the impetus of the killing game was what pushed them to want to be "stronger" and to dislike themself and hate their "weakness". Spitballing here, of course, but it did make me think.
I remember being slightly surprised that Sayaka died but mostly because I thought she would be the first killer. She was super suspicious to me when I was playing the game. And I suppose since I hadn't watched any trailers or seen the demo beforehand I had no reason to believe she'd be around for a long time. Junko's death on the other hand actually did really surprise me. Because I thought her character design was very interesting and very 'Danganronpa-esque', so I was very surprised they'd just kill her off so early for nothing. Literally the main reason I guessed the end of the game twist was because I didn't want to suspect anyone else and thought she needed to come back lol. I also immediately realized Sakura’s suicide but still greatly enjoyed the case. I think it’s my favorite chapter because it made me love Sakura so much