I just opened up my Mopar Engine Carroll Shelby's Speed Secrets book from Direct Connection and it states on page 44, section E for Pistons and Pins , the 3rd paragraph that "Factory pistons have the pin offset to reduce piston slap. By reversing the offset (reversing the piston) engine friction can be reduced. In engines equipped with power pak (domed) pistons this can be accomplished by installing pistons from the right bank in the left bank and vise versa. This means the notch in the edge of the piston top will now be toward the rear of the engine. With two barrel flat top pistons , it is only necessary to reverse the piston pin on the rod and not necessarily to swap from bank to bank. A piston to bore clearance of .0015 - .002 has proven to be adequate with stock type pistons. Race pistons do not have a piston offset and there-fore don't need to be reversed. " That was a lot of typing for me.
@@crunchemagain2030 you actually just argued with a performance book that has CARROLL FUCKING SHELBY IN REFERENCE PUBLISHED BY DIRECT CONNECTION. Lmfao you are a nobody arguing against to BIG somebodies
I think what roadkill is saying is this is obsolete information. They specifically refer to modern aftermarket piston. This old book info would pertain to old used parts. Is Tony incorrect? No, not if it's in all the old books. Roadkill is saying there is no power gain. That may be true. Maybe Nicks garage will offer up his dyno to do a test.😁
@@BlackLung87 Doesnt matter if you like Dulcich or Freiburger or not. The fact is they made very valid points that easily point to that swap being a fail.
Uncle Tony has a lot of videos with tons of great advice. Is he right all the time? No. None of us are. But he’s dead on 99% of the time and that’s a far cry from calling him a hack or full of shit.
I will say this and might even get a negativity for it. I as many many other’s do watch and follow Uncle Tony as well as these guys and many other car channels on TH-cam and on tv as well. As far as i know and I could be wrong but I have never really heard Uncle Tony call out or put anyone down for what they are doing. I think its a pretty cheap shot for these guys to go there. With that being said for what it’s worth Unce Tony is free in the way of not having corporate pressure and bullshit like these guys do to be obligated to and be make them happy. It’s obvious Freiburger definitely has that corporate type influence or mentality. Where as Uncle Tony is truly his own man and calls his own shots and don’t have to answer to no one. Finally with that being said I don’t agree 100% with everything that Uncle Tony says I’m no one special and I’ve been doing this for 20 plus years with Mopar vehicles. No matter how much I thought I knew, im always hearing and learning something new. I guess that’s the end of my little rant about this
@@crunchemagain2030 Tony has helped me out a few times to get some shit running. The Motortrend guys haven't shown me a thing that I can use that I didn't already know.
@@crunchemagain2030 so I guess this is about slamming Uncle Tony, which is what has seemed to happen with these two guys. I have nothing to gain by any of this and we are all entitled to our opinions and thoughts. Maybe there is truth in what your saying and maybe there isn’t. I have never seen Uncle Tony say anything bad about it TH-cam channels or anyone on TV . But this isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone criticize him. I’m sure he’s not the only one that removes bad or be comments from people on his channel. At the end of the day he still isn’t a corporate sellout or kiss ass to anyone.
@@jeromejakubowski7763 Tony tried to trash these guys with his "Dyno's are dumb" video... he knew he was way our of his realm with these guys and made that video to rebuttle the bs he put forth. He gets defensive of his dumb ideas and went on the offensive claiming these guys are sellouts and crap and his sheep go on the offensive. Yes its been scrubbed, doesnt mean it didnt happen. He is always trying to dance around his stupidity and back tracks... if you watch his videos its plainly obvious(he calls people trolls, when he trolls himself, but hey its good for hits! right? He trolled Mopar/gen 3 hemi, he trolled dynos, he trolls alot, full of excuses(the 318 build failure) etc etc... funny you arent seeing these things.
@@dontbestupidshows4623 You sound really salty. Why don't you prove it to us with your awesome dyno video for evidence. Until then you are another idiot on youtube with nothing but an opinion and no experience. Pistons will not slap if taper is within spec. You would know this if you knew literally anything about building engines yourself but I will assume from your fucked up english, you also didn't graduate highschool let alone know how to do math for engine building. Best of luck with your sad little troll channel. Google: "400hp 302" and you will find yet another engine builder talking about the HP he has SEEN and tested on many of his engines. But I am sure you are just as smart right? Total tool.
Bla bla bla It’s just what I expected these guys to say “buy new shit” keep our sponsors happy help us make more money. Utg might be wrong but...... BUT! He’s not telling you to spend spend spend. He’s saying hey you can do this and go out make noise and have fun with your toys. For crying out loud not all of us have loads of money.
HAH the old "I dont have 30$" excuse... you obviously dont understand UT is just feeding you line of cr*p.... he is just making it up so he can blab about something for youtube hits and try to make himself look smart and wise... you groupies believe it all you want..
How many people would you recommend to reuse stock pistons and rods that have 200k+ miles and are 50 years old? Piston and rods are WAY better today. Better engineering, tolerances, materials, rings.
Uncle Tony was writing great automotive magazine content long before Frieburger and Dulcich were in the game. As much as I love Engine Masters and Roadkill Garage, these guys are always playing around with huge budget parts they get for free to make their rusty crap projects actually move. The short of it is that Uncle Tony is WAY more in the tradition of Hot Rod than any of these guys who used to BE the guys at Hot Rod. That is a real shame WE all really need the triumphant return of Matt King!
@@darthhemi1735 James is right about uncle tony's creds and he is right about what it is to be a hot rodder It wasn't always a money game it was a brain game using and modifying at home with normal guy home tools junk yard parts. After market parts were for the pros and wealthy. Don't get me wrong I like Frieburger and Dulcich but because of who pays them, Motor Trend and their sponsors they have no choice but to showcase use endorse and advertise sponsors products. Darth please do a deep dive and watch UTG
@@pghgeo816 I agree, I like the three of them. That's a good observation on the split between UTG being a parts tuner and Freiburger & Dulcich being parts buyers (likely influenced by the sponsors, so it's understandable... Who won't say no to a free pair of cylinder heads). I see far too many people on forums "going efi" and buying their way out of problems. Half the time a bit of knowledge in fixing something or understanding the design means it can be kept and rebuilt. A lot of people have "junk" carbs that just need a simple rebuild that's been needed for 30 years, but claim the grand spent on efi was worth it because it now starts correctly and point the finger at the wrong thing. UT mentioned in a vid why he partly got out of magazines and Freiburger has even made the odd comment here and there that big numbers on covers sell magazines. That's the game... Claim big numbers, sell parts, sell magazines. Again, I like the three of them. Each has a bias to parts fixing and parts buying. I'm not going to port my cylinder heads, I don't have the the time or skill and will probably fudge it up, so I'll save up and buy a pair. But I will rebuild my carb and do anything else I can. Again on forums and groups I see people spending crazy money on new parts and their cars can run like cr*p. Both need to exist to keep eachother in check. When it comes to these debates / challenges they just need to do a like for like comparison on a Dyno... Prove or disprove the myth (sort of the intention of engine masters) and get the answer that way. Then discuss if it's worth it i.e. if you're going to go to the effort of disassembling an engine, is this the best way forward or would you do something else instead. I hope they do a fair test!
Naw they are saying don’t waste ur time taking ur engine apart to do this it’s a waste of time. Most forged pistons are 500-1000 for ur regular every day engines and every day builds anyways
@@smokeysghost4759 right...... but roadkill gets entire 800hp engines for free..... . they just have to sell their souls....... and advertise the FUCK out of summit/jegs/ETC and then make their free show into a paid only show
Can I ask i mean no disrespect but how is roadkill or anybody on motortrend a sell out cuz they are on motortrend how dose that make them a sell out again I mean no disrespect but just wondering i personally think roadkill is 10 times better then uncle tony's not that I don't like uncle tony's I just like roadkill more again that's just my opinion
@@poormansspeedshop4104 No disrespect taken, I'm one person who you don't have to worry about offending. I am fond of the MT guys (especially the Roadkill crew) but I think they are sellouts because of their subscription/streaming service. Like 2 or 3 years ago all their content was free on youtube available for everyone to watch for free (with the exception of the internet bill) but now you have to pay for these fellas tips and opinions. Tony on the other hand does this stuff for free and doesn'thave an almost unlimited budget. I hate how people are turning against each other over conflicting opinions on flipping pistons around, all these guys are very knowledgeable and have many decades of experience and also had different experiences.
@@joseesparza2364 very well said I agree totally with everything you said, I basically said the same thing in the comments but you put into words much better than I did. We are all car guys/gearheads/racers, and I always thought the whole idea about this was to have fun and help and support each other along the way. I’m sorry to say but I can’t help but see the arrogance with Freiburger but not so much in Dulcich, however I think they both went pretty low on this one
Clearly they never bothered to watch the UT episode in question. At the beginning he specified tips for people looking to rebuild an engine on a budget. Also he did not say to remove the piston from the rod and rotate it, he said rotate the pistons and the rods 180 degrees and swap cylinder banks and rod journals. And yes, the math is correct, doing this will allow the piston to apply a bit more torque to the crank. Given the number of engines the Roadkill guys have killed by halfassing their work they should have paid better attention.
It's only about the Torque & has nothing to do w/ HP. I've heard of example's were the HP was affected but very little. The Torque was affected by 10-27 lb.-ft. Yamaha has a single plane offset small-end crank in their high-pref. street bikes that kicks the S*** out of a lot of the other bikes. It's also the engine to use in mini-sprint cars. It sounds killer. But there is more vibration then the multi-plane so I'd rather offset the pin.
Most of the engines they have killed were either pretty much already there or run without air cleaners in the sand or left hoodless in the rain.. It is what ROADKILL was based on.. How many engines have they machined and built that they have blown up??
@@proinseasokiellig4388 it absolutely was you need to go watch the full episode lol they called that hack uncle phony out on his magical BS that he gets young people who don't have any clue to believe lol
@@crunchemagain2030 the original Ramchargers sold their shop and name. Was operated as a parts store and machine shop. They ran top fuel as you see in old race videos. By late 70s they didn't campaign any cars but continued the business. I worked at the Taylor, MI store that was also the machine shop. We had a bunch of racers that we built engines for. The piston thing just happens to be something that was done back then.
Met Uncle Tony in person not too long ago. He’s a really cool, humble guy. Not sure why you have so much animosity for him, but I think his channel and influence has done a lot more good than bad for the car community. I also don’t recall him saying in his video that people should do this with aftermarket pistons which is apparently one of the complaints they have with this. From what I remember, he was specifically referring to stock ones and never made any specific horsepower claims, or told people to tear down their engines and do it. Pretty sure he only said to do it if you’re already rebuilding it with factory components.
he got called out as dumb, then he put out his "dynos dont work" video... he's deleted a ton... he trashed Lambchop... reversing your pistons is stupid... These guys are right. Aside from that UT is a narcissistic douche, when he screwed up the 318 for Nicks garage he tried blaming everyone else... the list goes on.
@@crunchemagain2030 A lot of what he does is purely for video content. The 4 door will never run 10's they way he has it set up either, ever. It already broke the weak ass 8 1/4 rear end, next will be the crappy slant 6 4-speed in it, then the 318. It'll run 10's with a 440, nitrous, an automatic and a real rear diff and gears. Just watch.
@@Cutlass_Rudd Wrong. BR did 8.85 1/8th mile, equivalent to mid 13's quarter mile last year on a slipping clutch. This weekend it did a 1.61 60', which calculates to 11.58 in the quarter. He is close to breaking into the 10's.
Smokey yunick did things based on cylinder head tech, camshaft tech of the time. Time has matched on, most of his stuff still works well on an old iron headed sbc with not enough port area, and inferior 55 year old designed sbc stuff. Remember he didn't have cylinder heads that you and I can pick up the mouse and order within seconds, he didn't have computer designed efi intakes, he didn't have computer designed camshaft lobes, and if he were alive and testing now even he would have to say what worked back then is largely not applicable now with the advances made in engine design. He was an icon of an era, that era has long since passed gents.
@@b.c4066 I think you're ignoring that this idea is referring to engines that were designed and made 55+ years ago, and today are still in the same configuration that they were when they rolled off the factory floor. Not to say that this piston flip magic actually does a goddamn thing, but the fact that other engines are better is irrelevant, we're talking about making the old one better, using stock parts.
@@darthhemi1735 Its definitely about him. They say former journalist and in utg newest video Steve comments about it. If its so stupid I want someone to prove him wrong. Take a stock 350 dyno it 3-5 times, reverse the pistons and lets see. Between roadkill and utg they have the resources, let make it happen and put this to rest. Talk is cheap.
@@MrNota500 well at least someone neutral needs to be there to keep an eye on the testing. Pretty easy to pull a few degrees of timing out to doctor the result.
So Tony says it works for some performance gains and has done it probably countless times and these guys say it wont and havnt tried it that's an easy and safe assumption on who really knows.
All of this is technically correct, but if you are doing a rering on a decent core, it costs zero and will unload the piston some. I have done it countless times and the motors always run good with no piston failures or loud noises. I even do it with offset pin TRW forged pistons with looser clearances and barely hear them rattle cold. It's like a floating piston pin, it may not help but it never hurts.
It actually loads the piston skirts more, more wear. and at low rpm you would barely have any need for the prolonged intake stroke. So not useful for a stock daily
This is absolutely fascinating. Go back to the 1980s and who is suggesting reverse pin offset by swapping pistons to opposite banks? An obscure Peterson Publications magazine, whose tech editor was named C.J. Baker. Ouch, I bit myself in the azz!
2:08 uh.... most people dont buy new pistons, if the old ones are fine..... when rebuilding a motor most people dont get free parts....... . and ya.... its not 1969..... so are you saying we should just LS swap everything????
I like and respect the Roadkill guys however I find myself yelling at the tv when the are stumped on a relatively simple issue . As a 30 year oldschool mechanic the answer isn't always throw money at a problem.
Both are right… the difference is - UTG is all about the home builder and getting the most out of mostly stock OE parts, for what the normal Joe can afford/be able to do… the Roadkill guys as much as they know what they’re doing, they also have insane cash to play with… a good portion of the car guys in the hobby are doing this whole hobby on budget, keep that in mind... I personally don’t want to be spending money on a set of pistons when I got a set of perfectly good OEM ones sitting on the bench. Uncle Tony’s method of reversing the pistons is a perfect solution for people like me who don’t want to be spending money on things that I already have yet, can maximize the power output of my engine… the money I can spend on a set of pistons could get me a rear end in which I desperately need. UTG is for the normal DIY person. Roadkill is for entertainment purposes. There’s a huge difference when we’re talking about $$$…
2:34 he knows exactly who he's talking about. Called him out right there after looking at Freiburger. It's a tight community especially in the Mopar world, not to mention magazine world.
I'm a couple years older than Uncle Tony. This was a trick used back in the late sixties - early 70's in stock eliminator, I remember reading about it in Super Stock Magazine I believe.
Did you race stock eliminator in the 70's? It was a different ball game then. Many parts had the be actual factory replacement parts. If the factory pistons had offset it was normal to reverse it. But that doesn't mean it's the last word on it. Now in SE we can use any piston with the right weights and compression heights and ring grooves. IF there was anything to be gained stock class guys would do it. But we don't anymore. It's old info that is no longer relevant.
@@TL-angzarr maybe no longer relevant if you don't want to be low buck and reuse old parts like Tony. But if it still works, it still works. Turning the pistons around supposedly gives some performance advantage, whereas leaving them turned as stock supposedly just lowers piston and wall wear. So if Tony is going to reuse old pistons, he turns them around to suit his needs.
@@pete540Z How often even low buck guys are going to be able to reuse ancient pistons? Oh wait you aren't going to worry about the bore taper and just re-ring it? You think in that scenario that the piston offset is going to make any difference in performance? When I was young guys who were bucks down would knurl pistons and guides instead of boring and relining, those motors always ran like shit. Reversing the pistons on any sort of performance motor is stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. You got the motor apart at that point you might as well do a decent rebuild. Beyond all that there is little evidence it does anything. If flipping the offset made any HP at all guys would do it. I race B/SA in that class since you are so limited you find power anywhere you can find it. I have two 5 gallon buckets of rocker arms under my bench just so I could make 1 good set to run. I use spacers in the ring lands so I can use .043 low tension rings just to save that bit of friction. If reversed piston pin offset did anything gus in stock eliminator would do it. But they don't.
...which will have zero indication on torque produced on a dyno, and no perceptible difference in wear due to piston coatings, modern lubes, and modern alloys.
Can u send me the article cuz iv looked and can't fine anything on it nowhere everyone i have talked to on it says its the wrong thing to do and like tony said out his own mouth that its going to have some piston slap and thats a good way to brake a cast pistons
According to Larry Shepards book Mopar Performance small block "A" engines page 114 paragraph 4. "Factory pistons have the pin offset to reduce piston slap. By reversing the piston, engine friction is reduced." then it goes into some detail, gives a piston to bore clearance and notes aftermarket pistons dont need to be reversed for obvious reasons. I have done several big blocks with no issues what so ever and i shift when the valves float if that gives you any insight.
@@texasmopar5557 thanks for sharing the articles but u still have piston slap thats why the factory dose it to reduce piston slap so if you do it anyother way more than likely u will have piston slap piston slap witch on a cast piston could brake and hurt your channel thank u for share it my whole point with this video is to hear both sides of the argument so people can form there own Opinion
@@dontbestupidshows4623 I have never run into piston slap and have done this several times in engines that see total abuse. You mention factory, the paragraph I mentioned was published by the "factory" in 3 manuals I know of that could be purchased at the dealer ship parts counter. Im sure it would blow your mind to note the "factory also stated you could install standard pistons in a .10 over bore.
I don't think tony has ever stated it increases horsepower. It's a low rpm boosting mod. They claim it would interfere with the valves. Tony's videos clearly say to put it in the opposite bank specifically for that reason. They claim its a mod not worth doing to your car. Tony has specifically said it's a mod to do only during a rebuild process. They claim it reduces start up clatter. Maybe, but if you're seeking upgrades and you are rebuilding an engine its a non-issue for hundreds of thousands of miles. They claim just buy new parts bro. Tony avoids buying anything new if possible. They compare it to aftermarket mods. Tony never claimed its an improvement so big ICE concept should be redesigned around it. Also why aren't aftermarket pistons offset so you can copy the factory geometry? These are tv show producers who work on cars. Tony is a car hobbyist, who shares his knowledge in magazines or online
@Alex Eidenier price quickly adds up and tony is a car mod dumpster diver anyways. Also why consume new chinese products if your old pistons are fine and its just the rings that are bad
Nicks Garage is the most classy muscle car channel on TH-cam. He never says negative things about other content. He concentrates on his own stuff and it’s great!
@@francfurian8215 I was referring to the the Roadkill guys. I am disappointed they took a cheap shot at Tony. Utg and Nick are so different in their approach to muscle cars.
@@marcgucciardo1942 dont lump Nick with UT... Nick is done with hack UT... his experience with UT did not go well... UT is trying to blame everyone else... because he can't accept responsibility...
Everyone that try's to make power out of junkyard motors flips the pistons. Its been done for 50+ years. How much power gain very little but it ain't going to hurt. Every little bit helps.
@@crunchemagain2030 frieburger? Look i love all these guys but maybe drop the blind tribal loyalty and look into tonys background before trashing just sayin
@@ManiacGuitar98 rofl.. yes your UT worshippers are lunatics... hah let me know when he gets bottle rocket to run 10's... or can make a 318 run... (waiting for your excuses)
I have never broken a cast piston removing a piston pin. If you have the proper driver and piston support such as the Sunnen set up, it supports the pin boss and pressure is supported equally around the perimeter of the pin as long as you have a good hydraulic press that pushed perpendicular to the press plate. Seriously, if the pin is stuck that bad, how good is the piston in the first place. I guess coming from 2 guys that assemble the rattiest cars on the highway and strip a rant like Fryburger's is expected. I did not hear Uncle Tony's name mentioned.
I like both shows UTG and Roadkill but I think they are on different levels. UTG is an old-school hot rodder with a lot of knowledge and skill. Roadkill does some pretty fun stuff but I think UTG is more dependable. Just my thoughts I could be wrong.
Roadkill is just a collab. Something those guys do for fun and to generate revenue (people love it). But, those guys are way smarter than "roadkill". Especially Dulcich! Uncle Tony? What you see is what you get. That is what he does. Now, that is not an insult to UT at all! He is my favorite of the three, followed closely by Dulcich. Dulcich is probably a little more "well rounded" than UT (I mean the guy is a phenomenal paint/body man) and just sharp as a tack (albeit sometimes a drunk tack! LOL (I'm guilty myself!)). But, aint nobody better at "go fast on the cheap" than Tony DeFeo.
I didn't hear them specifically "call out" UTG. The closest thing was challenging former journalists meaning uncle tony. While I watch both regularly however, even very knowledgeable people get things wrong sometimes and its best to question everything. Previous performance does not guarantee future success.
Well, if they're meant to be digging at UTG, they're moving the goalposts. Centered performance pistons are not what UTG *deals* with. Is less stock piston offset better? Clearly UTG and those speed parts makers agree there. Is centered *better* than flipping the offset entirely? Quite possibly, but that's not what UTG is comparing. He mostly deals with what you can find in old stuff. He's also made a point that you can't do this if what pistons you have stock are cut out for the valves not to get hit.
Sounds like Sour Grapes, because youtube guys like UTG, DD Speed Shop, Vice Grip Garage etc. are taking their audiences because most guys don't have unlimited funds and can relate better to backyard builders on a budget.
Here it is 2 years later I just rebuilt my 67 318 LA. used this trick after putting the motor together the factory way i put it together this way put it on the dyno it went from 245hp to 280hp everything identical
For everyone arguing that this is old school and UTG is cheap, etc. I present to page 43 of How to build and modify GM LS Series Engines by Joe Potak. Not exactly an old school engine by anyones standards. Qoute " many aftermarket pistons use an offset wristpin " so that kinda blows a hole in Steves argument. It goes on for 4 paragraphs tellimg you why it's done.
I recall very well this very topic from back when I faithfully read Smokey Yunick's Popular Mechanics, or was it Mechanics Illustrated but anyway he talked about this and suggested it
Now I respect both these guys and Uncle Tony. They don't actually mention him by name because they know that's unprofessional. However what they are talking about they forgot Steve should have remembered that Chryslers performance engineers did excatly this in the 1965/66 Drag Racing seasons thru 67 with the 273 V8 and it did work! Worked so good that even in a B body the little 273 turned in impressive ETs for the Golden Commandos and the Ramchargers Hot Rod magazine in Feb 1966 published the whole factory build secrets in the February 1966 issue. Technology has been so greatly improved that this isn't necessary any Tony is an old school guy who knows what works and doesn't with old school mopars. It just so happens that all the points Steve and David make really won't work on Fords or GM engines because they mostly used cast pistons with non-bushed rods in their passenger car engines back then. Chrysler used forged pistons and floating rod bushing on the 273 and early pre 1970 LA 318s. The LA 318s pistons are low compression and generally sit 0.0180 below the deck. Not so with the 273 but their pistons had 4 valve relief cuts in them. I could go on and on but won't. I would love to put a 4.00" stroker crankshaft in a 273 with edelbrock heads with 1.94" intake valves and 1.58" and 10.5-1 compression forged pistons just like the Golden Commandos did back in 66 and top it off with EFI. Just to bring their work into the 21 century. It would be a high winding small bore V8 with plenty of guts with the right cam.
now if UT would have mentioned that one engine and that one case... go index your spark plugs also! It works for everything and second of all.... if it worked for everything, just Dulc said, the piston makers would copy it... So you dont know if it worked and you dont know if it made more power.
Not that I needed a reminder as to why I don't partake of HR, CC etcetera anymore, but, okay. Joe Sherman was used to verify the advantage to be gained via this route many years ago, in one of your magazines, but, okay. Change the parameters so that you can denigrate this old method of getting a little extra when doing a refresh with stock parts on an OE engine in good shape. Your legacy will be "Roadkill", and that will be entirely suitable.
In one of the 'Direct Connection' engine seminars years ago, legendary Chrysler engineer Tom Hoover said the same as Karl43 says above - that reversing the piston creates a bit more torque but also creates more cylinder wall wear.
Uhhh, there's some sort of contradiction going on there. More wear means more friction to create the extra wear. How do you get more power by creating more friction. That goes against all that I know about mechanical engineering, which ain't much. But it is enuf to know that extra friction is caused by some sort of drag.
@@larryhutchens7593 and i would LOVE to hear your thoughts on why the NOTORIOUS gm 3100/3400 piston slap doesnt cause any issues.... . do you know how many people would come into the shop with BRAND NEW 3100 motors.... swearing something was wrong and i had to tell them that "knock knock" when cold was normal.... the engine was designed to do that??? . also.... fuck you design a car that you dont have to use special tools to access the oil filter..... design a 5.7 hemi that doesnt have a flaw..... that wipes out cams and lifters . and stop having wet dreams about turning the perfectly happy ford 4.0 into a POS SOHC engine with a jack shaft and timing chains (one of which being on the BACK of the motor) . who ever designed the ford 5.4 and 4.0 SOHC should be shot for crimes against mechanics....
@@larryhutchens7593 or.... we could do it like the "old days"................ the boomer days . you have to work on cars for 4 years before you can design cars...... that way you know its stupid to put the oil filter 0.000000006 inches away from a 5000 degree cat converter....
@@kainhall Uhh, I'm no mechanical engineer and the Hoover race crew did have a dyno to test their theories. So do the guys at Road Kill & they have put to death some old wives tales about performance. Most humorous was the air cleaner tests when they got the best airflow out of a stainless steel salad/ mixing bowl with the bottom cut out to fit the carb. Another was the dented (very dented) set of headers. As they said, it would be interesting to see a back to back dyno run. That would be hard to confirm though due to the variance that little things like timing, parts compatibility, manufacturing tolerances between parts and on and on. If the few bits of torque gain overrides your ability to put up with an engine that makes noise like an old Perkins diesel at idle then go for it. If you don't worry about excess engine wear then do it. Personally I build engines for durability not racing. One also has to consider the ability to sell the vehicle. But then if the vehicle is a race only unit and you tow it to and from the track go for it.
Those talking smack about these two guys CLEARLY have NO IDEA of whom they are. Not dumping on UT, but Steve Dulcich is an Engine Masters Challenge, world class engine builder. He's up there with guys like Smokey Yunick and David Vizard. And if you don't know those names, you have ZERO hot rod/engine cred. Period. And Dave F has been a magazine editor for major publications for decades. Sooo...chill and enjoy all of the great work all of these guys are putting in. UT included.
Don't mention Dulcich and Yunick in the same breath please, especially if you can't spell the man's name correctly while preaching about "Hot rod/engine cred." if you don't know the name. Dulcich built some good engines that's correct, Smokey was actually world class though as in hands on in every aspect of every motorsport known including aircraft. Petrochemistry, metallurgy, differential geometry, structural and mechanical engineering, thermodynamics, aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, etc. the man was a true genius, Dulcich built some good engines. I won't bother going into Dave's illustrious career.
@@FPS1200 Ok google "400 hp 302" and you will find a guy WITH A DYNO that got a ford 302 to 400hp using a 280* baby cam and stock ported heads. He speaks VERY clearly about reversing the pistons there and I have my own 437hp 302 with this same treatment done sooooo.....ok? LOL this has been going on forever and it does make the block behave differently. Piston slap is a non issue as are valve reliefs (this is why ford had them done on both sides of pistons as well as chrysler through the 60's and early 70's). Chrysler put reversing the pistons in the owners' manual for how to get more power out of their engines until 1967 when they stopped it. Bore taper/piston clearance is what makes pistons slap not rod angularity. So where is the "proof" it doesn't work....I will wait.
@@scottbrown321 because they've known each other for a very long time and understand each other's personalities and don't get on TH-cam to complain and cry about stuff
I like Dulcich and Frieburger but I rolled my eyes at this clip. Roadkill is fun and entertaining but ultimately owned and sponsored by companies with TONS of $$$$. And therefore high dollar components are provided for free- even entire ready to run crate engines with unlimited dyno runs at Westech (Steve Brule is great BTW). So why go after a guy that caters to time clock punching stiffs making Im sure waaaaay under 45k per year? Tonys viewers will NEVER be able to duplicate Motor Trends projects but they can duplicate Tonys projects (Yes those projects are not pretty but they are affordable, doable and FUN.) Sponsored TV and streaming car shows like Roadkill give the illusion that a new set of aluminum heads, full roller valvetrain conversions with Harland Sharpe rocker arms and a fuel injection conversion is super cheap and can be done by anyone to every engine. TH-cam channels that focus on using alot of OEM parts are incredibly popular because its an entry into hot-rodding that does not require a 6 or 7 figure salary- or a big loan.
The Motortrend guys are trying to pander to what they think people can afford to do, Uncle Tony makes sure even the youngest rookie can start out and learn tricks of the trade
Your "but hurt" cause your in the tank (and emotional) for Tony . If Engine Masters ain't your show, why u watching? The comparison is dumb, not on point and your gonna cheer on the poor people. Okay How bout sticking to the FACTS. Dulcich and Frieburger ARE CORRECT. Eat it, roll it, chew it. like it, hate it, it doesn't matter. Dulcich and Frieburger ARE CORRECT. Budget builds are "hit & miss" at best. Get a 3rd job or a different hobby.
I worked in a race engine shop for a long time. We did this test many times on all types of engines at customer's request. We never saw any significant gains, maybe 1 hp at the most. There's a reason why performance pistons have their wrist pins centered.
Hi David It's been suggested there's a hp loss, however small, from the ring seal being disturbed when swapping pistons to other cylenders with no honing. What's your take on the idea that "ZERO" difference would occur?....I figure 1-2%
@@darthhemi1735 My engines lasted fine and ran real strong too. I've heard accusations of premature failure but never met anyone that experienced it. Centred pins are optimal. It's just a matter on what side of the bore the offset looses the least
Idk iv seen roadkill spin more Wrenches then uncle hack and at least what roadkill shows u how to doing thing half ass right u never hear them say oh if u offset youe pistons u will hear a little ticking but if that bothers u u are watching the wrong channel nobody wants to build a engine and hear noise only a idiot would want to hear a nose when they start a engine
Ya u might hear piston slap with a forged piston but not with a cast pistons how do u think u brake the piston skirt on a cast pistons if u are building a engine using cast pistons and u hear and noise then u got issues
"I've never proven or disproven it." Then shut up, lol. UTG has done it himself with the slant 6 and described a noticable difference. I don't know that I've ever heard him talk about reversing pistons in any other engine.
Tony's channel is all about hot rodding on a budget. Nobody is going to tear an engine down solely to reverse the pistons, but if you're tearing an engine down anyway why not do it? The old timers thought it was worthwhile.
Uncle Tony has all the characteristics of a burned out meth addict living in Tennessee because he couldn't hack it in NY real world anymore who's only on TH-cam to collect the ad dollars to feed his meth addiction. He's not even entertaining - his entire audience is RINO trash and armchair experts who think Harley Davidson & Chrysler are the finest garbage ever made and blah blah blah.. he's a Boomer whistling diesel
I still side with tiny. He’s got real life experience during the time period and has receipts to back it up. So I would trust his word rather than any “what if’s”
From Leo: I have played in 3 power sports. All it takes is for a famous winner to say he does something and it becomes the holy truth from then on. 20 years later people will still swear buy it, even if it makes no sense. If a famous racer says he put 1oz of dog turd in the crankcase, 75% of the others will be following the dog around with a baggie.
very true .....and a really cunning racer will say they use certain parts and make certain mods knowing they don't work - and knowing the competition will take the bait - hook, line and sinker
TALK IS CHEAP!!! Someone build and Dyno an engine with the pistons installed as intended, then dismantle it, flip the pistons around and then re-dyno! Fuck the theory's, explanations and whiteboard. People can talk ALL DAY, talk doesn't prove ANYTHING. We all agree with people that we like, SO, ACTUALLY TEST IT and put it to bed!
I enjoy roadkill and utg 🤷♂️ In my head if the oe put the pins offset one way to quiet slap and aftermarket put them on center . Wouldn’t flipping the stock ones at least move it in the right direction? If it doesn’t matter why aren’t aftermarket pistons offset to be quieter? From the utg video I seen on this it was just an old school trick he was passing on to people who don’t have roadkill money to buy pistons or build there engine into some 700hp fire breather. It seemed geared towards people playing around with old stuff on a budget.
No its not grate even out of uncle tony's mouth it will have piston slap thats a good way to brake a cast piston i get not haven't 6000 thousand dollars to build a engine then u save up and buy better piston im worried about a 16 year old kid hearing him say that throwing all of there money into a engine and then braking a piston and blowing up there engine there's not a machine shop around that will tell u piston pin offset is a good idea
And how dose roadkill fleece your cash iv watched all there episodes iv never once seen them market a part to u like stace david from gears dose so don't know what u are talking about there buddy do u know an episode that I don't know about or something
Yet Tony has challenged them to a build off and they are so far a no show. Tony has more experience in Mopars than these 2 guys combined. These guys are so dumb they forget to measure a flywheel before installing the engine in the car. The way they talk about it you would think the yare 20 year old kids who have been turning a wrench for only 5 years.
That's an insult to 20 year old mechanics with 5 years of experience, I should know I wasn't doing stuff that dumb when I was pulling parts off of 3 350s for parts to make one run
You know these “old sweaty heads” have been writing, testing and building cars and engines for some of the biggest magazines on the planet for 30+ years? Do you know who they are? They had careers before the silly shows.
@@mattperkins7038 And Tony DeFeo was doing it when they were in strollers and he also started his own magazines where he tested and built cars and engines all without the help of a billion dollar backer like Robert Petersen.
@@mattperkins7038 No he's not, he's a drunk. Because he was on engine masters? Please, there's hundreds... thousands better than him. Where's his engine shop located if he's such a prolific builder?
Exactly Im burn out on this dyno numbers game tonys sticker is spot on build anything race everything oh weight you need an LS swap efi etc etc and 4500 wheels and tires
@@bbs1969 They are just mad he is proving them wrong on everything and building cars for cheaper than them with less...now everyone is watching him and they sold out and no one wants to watch their garbage.
BRUH thank you. The prime example of them being deep pocket divas was the gas monkey race. They didn’t even build the car. They had it built and still lost
Uncle Tony seems like a down to earth kind of guy. Someone you could talk cars with and just swap stories and advice. Theses two seem like pretentious d bags. If you have a different opinion or approach from theirs, they want to put you down to make themselves seem better. Classic a holes.
hah you dont know the real UT then... hes a narcassistic hack... waste of time who has to blame everyone else for his failures(see the nicks dyno 318 video)... he f'ed that up and doesnt take blame... still waiting on bottle rocket to run 10's... he cant blame the poor results on the driver who volunteers to drive it for him...
@@crunchemagain2030 Well , wait patiently. . . . Its only been to the strip 3 times , that's just getting the bugs out. . . It recorded a 1.72 60-foot time last weekend , and that's JUMPIN . Getting a combination dialed in can take trial and error while you find out what works and what doesn't , especially when its a combo that "shouldn't" work by popular thinking.
Hey 'Stupid Shows', you miss-titled the video. Trying to start something that wasn't there? I listened to the vid 3x & I heard no mention of Uncle Tony. Did you copy the Roadkill video but the segment that mentioned Uncle Tony wasn't included in this video?
I don't know why anyone would listen to this guy since he immediately said he's never even tried it, it's just his reckless speculation. I haven't reversed any pistons, but I'm not making videos about it.
Ok this video has been up for a while, but if there's nothing to reversing the pistons why do tracks have in the rules you can't do this . The local circle track were I live has it in there rules.
Dang... what a bunch of squawking ducks that are out of touch with their own fan base... Issuing a challenge that been proven by the grand master Smokey Yunick... I got his SA published book in my hands. I had a feeling Friedburger was a worm but this just shows it. They got the dyno, they got the funds why don't they do it instead of "issuing a challenge"? Is free power that offensive to these guys, and their sponsors?
Tony's not to bright guys. He didn't know what Smokey's scale was for at the Garlets museum. (Early Dyno) He wanted to add combustion Chambers volume to Cubic Inch Displacement. (??) Displacement ? Pistons "Displace" air fuel...not heads ! Heads/Chambers are constant. Dis... Place. Read Tony read.
Well I don't believe Tony was actually talking about building a race engine when he was talking about reversing pistons , He was talking about doing it on a cheap rebuild to get a better [ not as worn thrust face ] and the by-product maybe a slight increase in hp ,We are not all millionaires or keyboard EXPERTS that wan't to ridicule someone that"s more popular than ourselves Take a long look at yourselves
Piston reversal Hp books how to hotrod small block mopar engines by larry sheppard ISBN 0-89586-479-7 LARRY SHEPPARD CHRYSLER ENGINEER 1968-1970 ALSO WORKED AT MOPAR PERFORMANCE PAGE 36 "REVERSING-For drag racing purposes, stock pistons are usually reversed on the the rod. This means the piston notch or arrow points to the rear of the engine instead of the front. The stock piston is machined with the pin offeset and installed in such a manner to load the skirt against the cylinder wall. This approach makes the engine quiet but slightly increases the friction. For racing, reversing the piston switches the offset which cuts down on the load the piston imparts to the cylinder wall. This will make the engine noisier especially when its cold, but it will decrease the amount of friction and THUS INCREASE THE AMOUNT FO POWER AVAILABLE. FORGED RACING PISTONS are machined on center, or at least much coloser than stock, So this reversing trick DOESNT WORK ON FORGED RACING PISTONS. Additionally, keep in mind that intake notches must be below intake valves and and a dome wont fit into the combustion chamber reversed!"' remember mototrend makes money off of sales not what works chrysler engineering had a racing team the ramchargers. they embarass themselves with a cognitive lack of competency and devalue themselves as experts. this bit just shows ignorance at its best remember utg has guys like don garlitz on his show go back and watch
The dude that needs to comb his hair was actually working in David Vizard’s shop when Vizard was actually doing dyno testing on piston flipping. Vizard stated that some engines gained a very small measurable amount of power and some made significant gains. But all tests showed an improvement, so there’s that.
These guys are bought & paid for by big $, I think they might have lost the backyard hot rodder tips &tricks. They have been too busy doing high end stuff to remember the little guy,& instead go ahead & roast him indirectly.💩
Until somebody tries this and throws it on a dyno, I guess we'll never really know. It doesn't have to be a perfect engine. There are a lot of 318s laying around out there.
@@VegasRT500 - That's what he's proposing with his challenge. Again, you have experts like David Vizard saying the theory is sound, but these two wanted to make a joke about it. They should all get together and do a controlled dyno test, pulling the engine apart and rotating the pistons. Start with a set of rod/pistons that are stacked up with the same length, a square block, and do the test both ways on the same day.
Uncle Tony didn't destroy a dump truck to make a wheely truck that self destructed the first time it was on the track. Did they ever get that working? And need I mention the Boost Caboose? How about the 3 way wank fest with Avengers?
@@olssong7941 The truck sat there, driveable with some work. They chopped it up, blew the V drive, did nothing else with it. If they'd have actually made a viable Wheely racer with it, it'd still be stupid but at least it would have worked. They made it do 2-3 wheelies, blew it up and fucked off to Motortrend on demand.
Been hearing that Mopar Myth for years,I even asked the engine builder where I worked at 30 year ago this question.......He just looked at me and said......Why would you go through that?
@@davidleonard8369 The man started in the engine machine work around 66 after taking a machinst class in college and done it till 4 year ago due to his eyesight.........machining/building engines,I was Lucky to work with him a couple of years at a local machine shop East Tn. back in early 90,s........where he taught me on re-sizing/checking rods and installing pistons and balancing.Very smart man and knew ALOT of diff. engines.....not just Ford,Mopar and G.m. .......You ever worked in a Engine Machine shop?
@@chrishensley6745 The fact that I can hold a +_ .0001 tolerance with a sunnen hone and I have two separate types of tools, one box says Mac on it and one says Kennedy doesn't make piston flipping irrelevant. You and I are not the only ones viewing the channel that understand that we measure each piston and final hone the bore for that piston hopefully using a torque plate.
Also must note, tony is not paid advertisement like this silly kids show roadkill. Yall just mad because more people follow him vs paying to watch store bought crap.
rofl UT is trying to get paid advertisements... he will sell you a tshirt... he is begging these companies for parts. He trashed his couple of free camshafts...
Ha! Ha! Ha! These are old tricks from a time when you actually had to be creative to build power, because you couldn't always just have it shipped to you in a box!!! You tried everything you could think of to gain a little edge over the next guy. I've never seen dino numbers on it, but it would stand to reason based on the fact that some modern performance engines employ offset cylinders, which would produce a similar effect. And remember, we weren't banging on those old cast pistons with seven hundred horses either!
If UTG had these guys budget, the mustard seed would move mountains. I do respect where these boys came from, but most guys in this game are not endowed enough to have mega hp builds between the rails so any gains however small are most welcome. Check book racers were never my thing.
hah yeah he could screw up even more 318 builds and waste more of Nicks dyno times(and shipping and engine to canada and hours of videos)... hah ill wait till his pos 4 door sh*tbox runs 10s....
I first learned of the piston flip while restoring my 51 Hudson hornet ...smokey yunick would do that in his 7x race motors ...mind you I never tried it in mine ..... Last year I decided to freshen up my 302 in my fox ...while it was out I decided to flip them .... Definitely can notice some more umph in it ...screams higher in the redline and by my butt dyno makes a little more power .... Before the flip it dynoed at 254 wheel .....all I've done was fresh rings and bearings and hone job ...I'm due at the dyno in June after I'm done painting my car ...time shall tell ...but definitely no piston slap at all and has great oil pressure ...I love roadkill through and through ..even more the utg ...but they have a dyno at the disposal ...put up or shut up time !!!
It's been awhile but the Hudson 6 piston pins are centerline I believe .... The 7x from HRS was a crate motor retrofit by dealers and may have different piston setup.
I just opened up my Mopar Engine Carroll Shelby's Speed Secrets book from Direct Connection and it states on page 44, section E for Pistons and Pins , the 3rd paragraph that "Factory pistons have the pin offset to reduce piston slap. By reversing the offset (reversing the piston) engine friction can be reduced. In engines equipped with power pak (domed) pistons this can be accomplished by installing pistons from the right bank in the left bank and vise versa. This means the notch in the edge of the piston top will now be toward the rear of the engine. With two barrel flat top pistons , it is only necessary to reverse the piston pin on the rod and not necessarily to swap from bank to bank. A piston to bore clearance of .0015 - .002 has proven to be adequate with stock type pistons. Race pistons do not have a piston offset and there-fore don't need to be reversed. " That was a lot of typing for me.
rofl.. yes someone mentioned this stupidity before.. and it still wouldnt have increased any power..
@@crunchemagain2030 just how do you know that it wouldn't? Perhaps your Ouija board says so?
@@crunchemagain2030 you actually just argued with a performance book that has CARROLL FUCKING SHELBY IN REFERENCE PUBLISHED BY DIRECT CONNECTION. Lmfao you are a nobody arguing against to BIG somebodies
I think what roadkill is saying is this is obsolete information. They specifically refer to modern aftermarket piston. This old book info would pertain to old used parts. Is Tony incorrect? No, not if it's in all the old books. Roadkill is saying there is no power gain. That may be true. Maybe Nicks garage will offer up his dyno to do a test.😁
@@MrSwinger1 they basically said its stupid and its a waste of time and energy... it doesnt gain anything.
Shouldn’t motor trends show engine master be the one to test this theory instead of calling out someone else to debunk it?
they arent the ones who said it made 25 hp... Uncle Phony did
@@BlackLung87 Doesnt matter if you like Dulcich or Freiburger or not. The fact is they made very valid points that easily point to that swap being a fail.
@@crunchemagain2030 HE never said that.
Stupid fucking ideas don’t need to be tested. They need to be made fun of
Why would he put up his money to prove something doesn't work? The money is in proving that it does.
Uncle Tony has a lot of videos with tons of great advice. Is he right all the time? No. None of us are. But he’s dead on 99% of the time and that’s a far cry from calling him a hack or full of shit.
I will say this and might even get a negativity for it. I as many many other’s do watch and follow Uncle Tony as well as these guys and many other car channels on TH-cam and on tv as well. As far as i know and I could be wrong but I have never really heard Uncle Tony call out or put anyone down for what they are doing. I think its a pretty cheap shot for these guys to go there. With that being said for what it’s worth Unce Tony is free in the way of not having corporate pressure and bullshit like these guys do to be obligated to and be make them happy. It’s obvious Freiburger definitely has that corporate type influence or mentality. Where as Uncle Tony is truly his own man and calls his own shots and don’t have to answer to no one. Finally with that being said I don’t agree 100% with everything that Uncle Tony says I’m no one special and I’ve been doing this for 20 plus years with Mopar vehicles. No matter how much I thought I knew, im always hearing and learning something new. I guess that’s the end of my little rant about this
@@jeromejakubowski7763 rofl yes your wrong, UT deletes alot(comments and bans)... you dont know the the whole Lambchop happening...
@@crunchemagain2030 Tony has helped me out a few times to get some shit running. The Motortrend guys haven't shown me a thing that I can use that I didn't already know.
@@crunchemagain2030 so I guess this is about slamming Uncle Tony, which is what has seemed to happen with these two guys. I have nothing to gain by any of this and we are all entitled to our opinions and thoughts. Maybe there is truth in what your saying and maybe there isn’t. I have never seen Uncle Tony say anything bad about it TH-cam channels or anyone on TV . But this isn’t the first time I’ve seen someone criticize him. I’m sure he’s not the only one that removes bad or be comments from people on his channel. At the end of the day he still isn’t a corporate sellout or kiss ass to anyone.
@@jeromejakubowski7763 Tony tried to trash these guys with his "Dyno's are dumb" video... he knew he was way our of his realm with these guys and made that video to rebuttle the bs he put forth. He gets defensive of his dumb ideas and went on the offensive claiming these guys are sellouts and crap and his sheep go on the offensive. Yes its been scrubbed, doesnt mean it didnt happen. He is always trying to dance around his stupidity and back tracks... if you watch his videos its plainly obvious(he calls people trolls, when he trolls himself, but hey its good for hits! right? He trolled Mopar/gen 3 hemi, he trolled dynos, he trolls alot, full of excuses(the 318 build failure) etc etc... funny you arent seeing these things.
Utg is a hot rodder kind of guy. He makes the most bang for the buck. Not sure putting him down is doing anything.
Is not the most bang for your buck if it has piston slap and brakes a piston and destroys your engine that u just rebuild
Not when u can just save up and just buy better pistons
@@robertankney5480 I don't think Tony really gives a shit about what these pissflaps say.
@@dontbestupidshows4623 You sound really salty. Why don't you prove it to us with your awesome dyno video for evidence. Until then you are another idiot on youtube with nothing but an opinion and no experience. Pistons will not slap if taper is within spec. You would know this if you knew literally anything about building engines yourself but I will assume from your fucked up english, you also didn't graduate highschool let alone know how to do math for engine building. Best of luck with your sad little troll channel.
Google: "400hp 302" and you will find yet another engine builder talking about the HP he has SEEN and tested on many of his engines. But I am sure you are just as smart right? Total tool.
@@heliarche he's a narcissist and an ego maniac... so of course he does, he can't even make a 318 run... so who's the mechanic here?
Bla bla bla It’s just what I expected these guys to say “buy new shit” keep our sponsors happy help us make more money. Utg might be wrong but...... BUT! He’s not telling you to spend spend spend. He’s saying hey you can do this and go out make noise and have fun with your toys. For crying out loud not all of us have loads of money.
You are 100% right.
HAH the old "I dont have 30$" excuse... you obviously dont understand UT is just feeding you line of cr*p.... he is just making it up so he can blab about something for youtube hits and try to make himself look smart and wise... you groupies believe it all you want..
@@crunchemagain2030 Do you really think anyone cares about your ill informed opinions? You are wasting time typing.
@@joseesparza2364 he's a key board warrior man. Probably doesnt even have a toolbox.
How many people would you recommend to reuse stock pistons and rods that have 200k+ miles and are 50 years old? Piston and rods are WAY better today. Better engineering, tolerances, materials, rings.
Uncle Tony was writing great automotive magazine content long before Frieburger and Dulcich were in the game. As much as I love Engine Masters and Roadkill Garage, these guys are always playing around with huge budget parts they get for free to make their rusty crap projects actually move. The short of it is that Uncle Tony is WAY more in the tradition of Hot Rod than any of these guys who used to BE the guys at Hot Rod. That is a real shame
WE all really need the triumphant return of Matt King!
hah dude lay off the crack
@@darthhemi1735 James is right about uncle tony's creds and he is right about what it is to be a hot rodder It wasn't always a money game it was a brain game using and modifying at home with normal guy home tools junk yard parts. After market parts were for the pros and wealthy. Don't get me wrong I like Frieburger and Dulcich but because of who pays them, Motor Trend and their sponsors they have no choice but to showcase use endorse and advertise sponsors products. Darth please do a deep dive and watch UTG
@@pghgeo816 I agree, I like the three of them. That's a good observation on the split between UTG being a parts tuner and Freiburger & Dulcich being parts buyers (likely influenced by the sponsors, so it's understandable... Who won't say no to a free pair of cylinder heads).
I see far too many people on forums "going efi" and buying their way out of problems. Half the time a bit of knowledge in fixing something or understanding the design means it can be kept and rebuilt. A lot of people have "junk" carbs that just need a simple rebuild that's been needed for 30 years, but claim the grand spent on efi was worth it because it now starts correctly and point the finger at the wrong thing.
UT mentioned in a vid why he partly got out of magazines and Freiburger has even made the odd comment here and there that big numbers on covers sell magazines.
That's the game... Claim big numbers, sell parts, sell magazines.
Again, I like the three of them. Each has a bias to parts fixing and parts buying. I'm not going to port my cylinder heads, I don't have the the time or skill and will probably fudge it up, so I'll save up and buy a pair. But I will rebuild my carb and do anything else I can.
Again on forums and groups I see people spending crazy money on new parts and their cars can run like cr*p. Both need to exist to keep eachother in check.
When it comes to these debates / challenges they just need to do a like for like comparison on a Dyno... Prove or disprove the myth (sort of the intention of engine masters) and get the answer that way. Then discuss if it's worth it i.e. if you're going to go to the effort of disassembling an engine, is this the best way forward or would you do something else instead.
I hope they do a fair test!
You obviously not familiar with the work of Sloppy Mechanics aka Professor Matt Happel
Bullshit, dulcich has been writing since 1998 that I know of.
What these guys are saying summed up is "Buy a set of $2000 pistons from our sponsors"
Your fake news... they said flip em go ahead... and butt dynos are for p&ssies who make up sh*t
Naw they are saying don’t waste ur time taking ur engine apart to do this it’s a waste of time. Most forged pistons are 500-1000 for ur regular every day engines and every day builds anyways
What they are saying is 100% correct. $2000? Come on dude.
I don’t have 2k in my Ross pistons. I barely have that in the rotating assembly.
Ouch, big channels bashing. Once again failing to take the whole context, just using bits to make content, fishing for views. Pathetic. Unsubbed
Tony should just call Summit and have them send him pallets of free parts. Right? Because that's the Hot Rod way.
I don't think he's going to get much for free
@@smokeysghost4759 That's the point...
@@smokeysghost4759 right...... but roadkill gets entire 800hp engines for free.....
.
they just have to sell their souls....... and advertise the FUCK out of summit/jegs/ETC
and then make their free show into a paid only show
uncle tony begs parts guys.. he gets parts and ruins them... He trashed a comp cam he got because hes an amateur builder...
@@darthhemi1735 I can tell your a fan boy....
I like both these guys but I stand W/Tony. At least Tony isn't a sellout like all of the Motortrend guys.
Can I ask i mean no disrespect but how is roadkill or anybody on motortrend a sell out cuz they are on motortrend how dose that make them a sell out again I mean no disrespect but just wondering i personally think roadkill is 10 times better then uncle tony's not that I don't like uncle tony's I just like roadkill more again that's just my opinion
@@poormansspeedshop4104 No disrespect taken, I'm one person who you don't have to worry about offending. I am fond of the MT guys (especially the Roadkill crew) but I think they are sellouts because of their subscription/streaming service. Like 2 or 3 years ago all their content was free on youtube available for everyone to watch for free (with the exception of the internet bill) but now you have to pay for these fellas tips and opinions. Tony on the other hand does this stuff for free and doesn'thave an almost unlimited budget. I hate how people are turning against each other over conflicting opinions on flipping pistons around, all these guys are very knowledgeable and have many decades of experience and also had different experiences.
@@joseesparza2364 very well said I agree totally with everything you said, I basically said the same thing in the comments but you put into words much better than I did. We are all car guys/gearheads/racers, and I always thought the whole idea about this was to have fun and help and support each other along the way. I’m sorry to say but I can’t help but see the arrogance with Freiburger but not so much in Dulcich, however I think they both went pretty low on this one
rolf UT has nothing no one wants to buy... so he pan handles on youtube and just bs's on youtube for hits. you flunkies believe his bs
@@crunchemagain2030 Somebody's triggered eh?
Clearly they never bothered to watch the UT episode in question. At the beginning he specified tips for people looking to rebuild an engine on a budget. Also he did not say to remove the piston from the rod and rotate it, he said rotate the pistons and the rods 180 degrees and swap cylinder banks and rod journals. And yes, the math is correct, doing this will allow the piston to apply a bit more torque to the crank. Given the number of engines the Roadkill guys have killed by halfassing their work they should have paid better attention.
It's only about the Torque & has nothing to do w/ HP. I've heard of example's were the HP was affected but very little. The Torque was affected by 10-27 lb.-ft. Yamaha has a single plane offset small-end crank in their high-pref. street bikes that kicks the S*** out of a lot of the other bikes. It's also the engine to use in mini-sprint cars. It sounds killer. But there is more vibration then the multi-plane so I'd rather offset the pin.
This. I love Roadkill and UTG, but the Roadkill guys have zero room to criticize how others build them. They half-ass just about everything they do!
Uncle Tony's garage wasn't even mentioned... much less called out
Most of the engines they have killed were either pretty much already there or run without air cleaners in the sand or left hoodless in the rain.. It is what ROADKILL was based on.. How many engines have they machined and built that they have blown up??
@@proinseasokiellig4388 it absolutely was you need to go watch the full episode lol they called that hack uncle phony out on his magical BS that he gets young people who don't have any clue to believe lol
The piston offset situation is an old stock & superstock trick. It worked. I'm a former Ramchargers employee.
hah so they were their own company? sure
@@crunchemagain2030 he must be quit old also
@@crunchemagain2030 the original Ramchargers sold their shop and name. Was operated as a parts store and machine shop. They ran top fuel as you see in old race videos. By late 70s they didn't campaign any cars but continued the business. I worked at the Taylor, MI store that was also the machine shop. We had a bunch of racers that we built engines for. The piston thing just happens to be something that was done back then.
I love Dulcich and Freiburger. They just throw the facts down !!!
Proof or it never happened
These two homely guys can only do so many burnouts in their lame project cars before viewers start to get a little ill.
Lets see your pos bud.
@@xtr3m3fLx My best one was a 67 Yenko Camaro owned it for 35 years and sold it for 315K in 2012. Many other nice cars also. Cry...
Met Uncle Tony in person not too long ago. He’s a really cool, humble guy. Not sure why you have so much animosity for him, but I think his channel and influence has done a lot more good than bad for the car community. I also don’t recall him saying in his video that people should do this with aftermarket pistons which is apparently one of the complaints they have with this. From what I remember, he was specifically referring to stock ones and never made any specific horsepower claims, or told people to tear down their engines and do it. Pretty sure he only said to do it if you’re already rebuilding it with factory components.
he got called out as dumb, then he put out his "dynos dont work" video... he's deleted a ton... he trashed Lambchop... reversing your pistons is stupid... These guys are right. Aside from that UT is a narcissistic douche, when he screwed up the 318 for Nicks garage he tried blaming everyone else... the list goes on.
@@crunchemagain2030 A lot of what he does is purely for video content. The 4 door will never run 10's they way he has it set up either, ever. It already broke the weak ass 8 1/4 rear end, next will be the crappy slant 6 4-speed in it, then the 318. It'll run 10's with a 440, nitrous, an automatic and a real rear diff and gears. Just watch.
@@Cutlass_Rudd nothing UT puts his hands on will ever run 10's... doubtful it will even run 13's..
@@crunchemagain2030 I dont think its even cracked the 15's. That means it would get whooped by any minivan or Toyota camry.
@@Cutlass_Rudd Wrong. BR did 8.85 1/8th mile, equivalent to mid 13's quarter mile last year on a slipping clutch. This weekend it did a 1.61 60', which calculates to 11.58 in the quarter. He is close to breaking into the 10's.
A low performance engine will still be a low performance engine after flipping the pistons.
Uncle Tony's garage wasn't even mentioned... much less called out
Annoying clickbait titles.
@@aaronrodgers5852 yup
It is one of UT's "tricks"... lol...
when they said "former automotive journalist" they were referring to him
@@konnerkramer329 if that's true... it's like I said... not much of a call out (they basically called out everyone)
I guess Smokey Yunick didn’t know what he was talking about. NASCAR, Indy...
Some of his shit was pretty stupid. Side by side Indy car.... So yeah, he was human and had bad days too.
Smokey yunick did things based on cylinder head tech, camshaft tech of the time. Time has matched on, most of his stuff still works well on an old iron headed sbc with not enough port area, and inferior 55 year old designed sbc stuff. Remember he didn't have cylinder heads that you and I can pick up the mouse and order within seconds, he didn't have computer designed efi intakes, he didn't have computer designed camshaft lobes, and if he were alive and testing now even he would have to say what worked back then is largely not applicable now with the advances made in engine design. He was an icon of an era, that era has long since passed gents.
@@b.c4066 I think you're ignoring that this idea is referring to engines that were designed and made 55+ years ago, and today are still in the same configuration that they were when they rolled off the factory floor. Not to say that this piston flip magic actually does a goddamn thing, but the fact that other engines are better is irrelevant, we're talking about making the old one better, using stock parts.
He didn’t actually, Smokey’s long rod theory has been completely disproven several times
Every successful invention or idea is preceded with mistakes.
UT's channel must be getting around if hes triggering the Roadkill crew
his stupidity is astounding... i think this was old though... and not about him.
@@darthhemi1735 Its definitely about him. They say former journalist and in utg newest video Steve comments about it. If its so stupid I want someone to prove him wrong. Take a stock 350 dyno it 3-5 times, reverse the pistons and lets see. Between roadkill and utg they have the resources, let make it happen and put this to rest. Talk is cheap.
@@MrNota500 🤣😂🤣tony has no resources...
@@lammychop1016 he could build a slant 6 and bring it to engine masters. Or build it there with them to prove nothing else was done.
@@MrNota500 well at least someone neutral needs to be there to keep an eye on the testing. Pretty easy to pull a few degrees of timing out to doctor the result.
It comes down to this, name one car that UTG has that runs or looks worth a shit?
even his Mini bikes are cheap crap :)
So Tony says it works for some performance gains and has done it probably countless times and these guys say it wont and havnt tried it that's an easy and safe assumption on who really knows.
hah now if he could only build a 318 that could run... and not screw up his buddies charger
@@crunchemagain2030 what did he do to the charger...?
All of this is technically correct, but if you are doing a rering on a decent core, it costs zero and will unload the piston some. I have done it countless times and the motors always run good with no piston failures or loud noises. I even do it with offset pin TRW forged pistons with looser clearances and barely hear them rattle cold. It's like a floating piston pin, it may not help but it never hurts.
It actually loads the piston skirts more, more wear. and at low rpm you would barely have any need for the prolonged intake stroke. So not useful for a stock daily
@@KrisisVal LOL. That's why racing pistons are centered-pin, for more loading and wear.
This is absolutely fascinating. Go back to the 1980s and who is suggesting reverse pin offset by swapping pistons to opposite banks? An obscure Peterson Publications magazine, whose tech editor was named C.J. Baker. Ouch, I bit myself in the azz!
*facepalm* you kids who know NOTHING, at all, about basic geometry are fucking entertaining as HELL
2:08 uh.... most people dont buy new pistons, if the old ones are fine..... when rebuilding a motor
most people dont get free parts.......
.
and ya.... its not 1969..... so are you saying we should just LS swap everything????
I like and respect the Roadkill guys however I find myself yelling at the tv when the are stumped on a relatively simple issue . As a 30 year oldschool mechanic the answer isn't always throw money at a problem.
Both are right… the difference is - UTG is all about the home builder and getting the most out of mostly stock OE parts, for what the normal Joe can afford/be able to do… the Roadkill guys as much as they know what they’re doing, they also have insane cash to play with… a good portion of the car guys in the hobby are doing this whole hobby on budget, keep that in mind... I personally don’t want to be spending money on a set of pistons when I got a set of perfectly good OEM ones sitting on the bench. Uncle Tony’s method of reversing the pistons is a perfect solution for people like me who don’t want to be spending money on things that I already have yet, can maximize the power output of my engine… the money I can spend on a set of pistons could get me a rear end in which I desperately need.
UTG is for the normal DIY person. Roadkill is for entertainment purposes. There’s a huge difference when we’re talking about $$$…
Didn't you listen, there is NO advantage !!! 🤔
It's just another wrong Uncle Tony idea !!!
2:34 he knows exactly who he's talking about. Called him out right there after looking at Freiburger.
It's a tight community especially in the Mopar world, not to mention magazine world.
I'm a couple years older than Uncle Tony. This was a trick used back in the late sixties - early 70's in stock eliminator, I remember reading about it in Super Stock Magazine I believe.
same here
But it must be bullshit since these 2 TV geniuses said so. Hahahaha
Did you race stock eliminator in the 70's? It was a different ball game then. Many parts had the be actual factory replacement parts. If the factory pistons had offset it was normal to reverse it. But that doesn't mean it's the last word on it. Now in SE we can use any piston with the right weights and compression heights and ring grooves. IF there was anything to be gained stock class guys would do it. But we don't anymore. It's old info that is no longer relevant.
@@TL-angzarr maybe no longer relevant if you don't want to be low buck and reuse old parts like Tony. But if it still works, it still works. Turning the pistons around supposedly gives some performance advantage, whereas leaving them turned as stock supposedly just lowers piston and wall wear. So if Tony is going to reuse old pistons, he turns them around to suit his needs.
@@pete540Z How often even low buck guys are going to be able to reuse ancient pistons? Oh wait you aren't going to worry about the bore taper and just re-ring it? You think in that scenario that the piston offset is going to make any difference in performance? When I was young guys who were bucks down would knurl pistons and guides instead of boring and relining, those motors always ran like shit. Reversing the pistons on any sort of performance motor is stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. You got the motor apart at that point you might as well do a decent rebuild. Beyond all that there is little evidence it does anything. If flipping the offset made any HP at all guys would do it. I race B/SA in that class since you are so limited you find power anywhere you can find it. I have two 5 gallon buckets of rocker arms under my bench just so I could make 1 good set to run. I use spacers in the ring lands so I can use .043 low tension rings just to save that bit of friction. If reversed piston pin offset did anything gus in stock eliminator would do it. But they don't.
I can't believe anything Freiburger says since "Roadkill will always be free a month after each episode is released."
Fool me once...
I remember when he said that, now I haven't seen a new roadkill episode since they changed platforms
The piston engineers that I have encountered have said that the offset is to reduce the load on the primary thrust wall of the bore.
...which will have zero indication on torque produced on a dyno, and no perceptible difference in wear due to piston coatings, modern lubes, and modern alloys.
Direct connection manual has a paragraph on backwards pistons. UTG didnt invent it.
Can u send me the article cuz iv looked and can't fine anything on it nowhere everyone i have talked to on it says its the wrong thing to do and like tony said out his own mouth that its going to have some piston slap and thats a good way to brake a cast pistons
@@dontbestupidshows4623 I will look in the book and give you the page. It is also mentioned in the mopar performance A engine performance manual.
According to Larry Shepards book Mopar Performance small block "A" engines page 114 paragraph 4. "Factory pistons have the pin offset to reduce piston slap. By reversing the piston, engine friction is reduced." then it goes into some detail, gives a piston to bore clearance and notes aftermarket pistons dont need to be reversed for obvious reasons. I have done several big blocks with no issues what so ever and i shift when the valves float if that gives you any insight.
@@texasmopar5557 thanks for sharing the articles but u still have piston slap thats why the factory dose it to reduce piston slap so if you do it anyother way more than likely u will have piston slap piston slap witch on a cast piston could brake and hurt your channel thank u for share it my whole point with this video is to hear both sides of the argument so people can form there own Opinion
@@dontbestupidshows4623 I have never run into piston slap and have done this several times in engines that see total abuse. You mention factory, the paragraph I mentioned was published by the "factory" in 3 manuals I know of that could be purchased at the dealer ship parts counter. Im sure it would blow your mind to note the "factory also stated you could install standard pistons in a .10 over bore.
I don't think tony has ever stated it increases horsepower. It's a low rpm boosting mod.
They claim it would interfere with the valves. Tony's videos clearly say to put it in the opposite bank specifically for that reason.
They claim its a mod not worth doing to your car. Tony has specifically said it's a mod to do only during a rebuild process.
They claim it reduces start up clatter. Maybe, but if you're seeking upgrades and you are rebuilding an engine its a non-issue for hundreds of thousands of miles.
They claim just buy new parts bro. Tony avoids buying anything new if possible.
They compare it to aftermarket mods. Tony never claimed its an improvement so big ICE concept should be redesigned around it. Also why aren't aftermarket pistons offset so you can copy the factory geometry?
These are tv show producers who work on cars. Tony is a car hobbyist, who shares his knowledge in magazines or online
hit knowledge? please.... he is just making up sh*t for youtube hits..
@Alex Eidenier price quickly adds up and tony is a car mod dumpster diver anyways. Also why consume new chinese products if your old pistons are fine and its just the rings that are bad
@Alex Eidenier but in the case it doesn't need then it doesn't
Never thought Uncle Tony would have internet beef 😂
Nicks Garage is the most classy muscle car channel on TH-cam. He never says negative things about other content. He concentrates on his own stuff and it’s great!
@J Fizzy I don’t think that’s what Marc was saying. He may be referring to Frie & Dulcich😊
Nick is the real deal, not a two bit hack like UT, He knows how to build and engine that runs and uses a dyno that works.
@@francfurian8215 I was referring to the the Roadkill guys. I am disappointed they took a cheap shot at Tony. Utg and Nick are so different in their approach to muscle cars.
@J Fizzy sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the roadkill guys. I really enjoy Utg and NG equally.
@@marcgucciardo1942 dont lump Nick with UT... Nick is done with hack UT... his experience with UT did not go well... UT is trying to blame everyone else... because he can't accept responsibility...
Everyone that try's to make power out of junkyard motors flips the pistons. Its been done for 50+ years. How much power gain very little but it ain't going to hurt. Every little bit helps.
I used to watch Roadkill religiously but haven't since they took their show off TH-cam. I have more respect for Uncle Tony for keeping his show free.
Same.
I've been flipping pistons for years, incredible seat of the pants feel, just second behind my E3 spark plugs!
HAHAHAhahahahahahahaaaaaa.... ;)
Wanna guess who has advertisers to keep happy?
wanna guess who is desperate for youtube hits and wants you to buy his tshirts...
GO ON AND STICK IN
@@crunchemagain2030 every TH-cam today. Including these guys. Good job for making yourself look stupid.
@@crunchemagain2030 frieburger?
Look i love all these guys but maybe drop the blind tribal loyalty and look into tonys background before trashing just sayin
@@ManiacGuitar98 rofl.. yes your UT worshippers are lunatics... hah let me know when he gets bottle rocket to run 10's... or can make a 318 run... (waiting for your excuses)
I have never broken a cast piston removing a piston pin. If you have the proper driver and piston support such as the Sunnen set up, it supports the pin boss and pressure is supported equally around the perimeter of the pin as long as you have a good hydraulic press that pushed perpendicular to the press plate. Seriously, if the pin is stuck that bad, how good is the piston in the first place. I guess coming from 2 guys that assemble the rattiest cars on the highway and strip a rant like Fryburger's is expected. I did not hear Uncle Tony's name mentioned.
I like both shows UTG and Roadkill but I think they are on different levels. UTG is an old-school hot rodder with a lot of knowledge and skill. Roadkill does some pretty fun stuff but I think UTG is more dependable. Just my thoughts I could be wrong.
Roadkill is just a collab. Something those guys do for fun and to generate revenue (people love it). But, those guys are way smarter than "roadkill". Especially Dulcich! Uncle Tony? What you see is what you get. That is what he does. Now, that is not an insult to UT at all! He is my favorite of the three, followed closely by Dulcich. Dulcich is probably a little more "well rounded" than UT (I mean the guy is a phenomenal paint/body man) and just sharp as a tack (albeit sometimes a drunk tack! LOL (I'm guilty myself!)). But, aint nobody better at "go fast on the cheap" than Tony DeFeo.
@@wheelieking71 Yes this is true.
Knowledge vs $. Like Wall street, $ usually wins unfortunately, I back the under dog every time so I'm into knowledge.
This challenge is made for Richard Holdener!
he wont waste his time on stupid ideas
Holdner is on the same page and Frieburg & dulcich
@@phonypony5.0 Holdner also said he will do it on the dyno during a livestream
He is LS not mopar
It is made for these guys. Tony challenged them to a build off. crickets.
I remember a HotRod article where the late great Joe Sherman installing cast .030 over 302 pistons backwards in a budget 400 or 500 horse ford.
Ahhh JOE SHERMAN .. king of the 406s sbc
I didn't hear them specifically "call out" UTG. The closest thing was challenging former journalists meaning uncle tony. While I watch both regularly however, even very knowledgeable people get things wrong sometimes and its best to question everything. Previous performance does not guarantee future success.
agreed people are making up imaginary stories and trying to create havok ie trolls
Well, if they're meant to be digging at UTG, they're moving the goalposts. Centered performance pistons are not what UTG *deals* with. Is less stock piston offset better? Clearly UTG and those speed parts makers agree there. Is centered *better* than flipping the offset entirely? Quite possibly, but that's not what UTG is comparing. He mostly deals with what you can find in old stuff. He's also made a point that you can't do this if what pistons you have stock are cut out for the valves not to get hit.
Sounds like Sour Grapes, because youtube guys like UTG, DD Speed Shop, Vice Grip Garage etc. are taking their audiences because most guys don't have unlimited funds and can relate better to backyard builders on a budget.
Here it is 2 years later I just rebuilt my 67 318 LA. used this trick after putting the motor together the factory way i put it together this way put it on the dyno it went from 245hp to 280hp everything identical
Shorts and sandals...
Enough said
what about backwards valve reliefs??
For everyone arguing that this is old school and UTG is cheap, etc. I present to page 43 of How to build and modify GM LS Series Engines by Joe Potak. Not exactly an old school engine by anyones standards. Qoute " many aftermarket pistons use an offset wristpin " so that kinda blows a hole in Steves argument. It goes on for 4 paragraphs tellimg you why it's done.
yes they use offsets, Steve said that... so if it made more power they would flip the piston offset the other way... jesus are people dumb or what?
Crazy how every single factory engine is built for max performance and 0 is given to NVH or drivability, hey....
I recall very well this very topic from back when I faithfully read Smokey Yunick's Popular Mechanics, or was it Mechanics Illustrated but anyway he talked about this and suggested it
Now I respect both these guys and Uncle Tony. They don't actually mention him by name because they know that's unprofessional. However what they are talking about they forgot Steve should have remembered that Chryslers performance engineers did excatly this in the 1965/66 Drag Racing seasons thru 67 with the 273 V8 and it did work! Worked so good that even in a B body the little 273 turned in impressive ETs for the Golden Commandos and the Ramchargers Hot Rod magazine in Feb 1966 published the whole factory build secrets in the February 1966 issue. Technology has been so greatly improved that this isn't necessary any Tony is an old school guy who knows what works and doesn't with old school mopars. It just so happens that all the points Steve and David make really won't work on Fords or GM engines because they mostly used cast pistons with non-bushed rods in their passenger car engines back then. Chrysler used forged pistons and floating rod bushing on the 273 and early pre 1970 LA 318s. The LA 318s pistons are low compression and generally sit 0.0180 below the deck. Not so with the 273 but their pistons had 4 valve relief cuts in them. I could go on and on but won't. I would love to put a 4.00" stroker crankshaft in a 273 with edelbrock heads with 1.94" intake valves and 1.58" and 10.5-1 compression forged pistons just like the Golden Commandos did back in 66 and top it off with EFI. Just to bring their work into the 21 century. It would be a high winding small bore V8 with plenty of guts with the right cam.
now if UT would have mentioned that one engine and that one case... go index your spark plugs also! It works for everything and second of all.... if it worked for everything, just Dulc said, the piston makers would copy it... So you dont know if it worked and you dont know if it made more power.
@@crunchemagain2030 ask yourself why the performance piston manufacturers don't offset their pins to the INSIDE like the factory does ?
@@Richie_the_Fixer they do...
If its not hemi don't waste your money ,a 283 has more potentional then a 273:
A 273 racing engine? What a joke.
Not that I needed a reminder as to why I don't partake of HR, CC etcetera anymore, but, okay. Joe Sherman was used to verify the advantage to be gained via this route many years ago, in one of your magazines, but, okay. Change the parameters so that you can denigrate this old method of getting a little extra when doing a refresh with stock parts on an OE engine in good shape. Your legacy will be "Roadkill", and that will be entirely suitable.
In one of the 'Direct Connection' engine seminars years ago, legendary Chrysler engineer Tom Hoover said the same as Karl43 says above - that reversing the piston creates a bit more torque but also creates more cylinder wall wear.
Uhhh, there's some sort of contradiction going on there. More wear means more friction to create the extra wear. How do you get more power by creating more friction. That goes against all that I know about mechanical engineering, which ain't much. But it is enuf to know that extra friction is caused by some sort of drag.
@@larryhutchens7593 uh.... the drag is worth 0.05HP
but the extra leverage is worth 5 foot pounds of torque.....
.
thats how
@@larryhutchens7593 and i would LOVE to hear your thoughts on why the NOTORIOUS gm 3100/3400 piston slap doesnt cause any issues....
.
do you know how many people would come into the shop with BRAND NEW 3100 motors.... swearing something was wrong
and i had to tell them that "knock knock" when cold was normal.... the engine was designed to do that???
.
also.... fuck you
design a car that you dont have to use special tools to access the oil filter.....
design a 5.7 hemi that doesnt have a flaw..... that wipes out cams and lifters
.
and stop having wet dreams about turning the perfectly happy ford 4.0 into a POS SOHC engine
with a jack shaft and timing chains (one of which being on the BACK of the motor)
.
who ever designed the ford 5.4 and 4.0 SOHC should be shot for crimes against mechanics....
@@larryhutchens7593 or.... we could do it like the "old days"................ the boomer days
.
you have to work on cars for 4 years before you can design cars......
that way you know its stupid to put the oil filter 0.000000006 inches away from a 5000 degree cat converter....
@@kainhall Uhh, I'm no mechanical engineer and the Hoover race crew did have a dyno to test their theories. So do the guys at Road Kill & they have put to death some old wives tales about performance. Most humorous was the air cleaner tests when they got the best airflow out of a stainless steel salad/ mixing bowl with the bottom cut out to fit the carb. Another was the dented (very dented) set of headers. As they said, it would be interesting to see a back to back dyno run. That would be hard to confirm though due to the variance that little things like timing, parts compatibility, manufacturing tolerances between parts and on and on. If the few bits of torque gain overrides your ability to put up with an engine that makes noise like an old Perkins diesel at idle then go for it. If you don't worry about excess engine wear then do it. Personally I build engines for durability not racing. One also has to consider the ability to sell the vehicle. But then if the vehicle is a race only unit and you tow it to and from the track go for it.
Utg has helped me get my Camaro timing dialed in by light, and then by ear. Or "seat of the pants feel". The Ole Maro has never ran better.
Those talking smack about these two guys CLEARLY have NO IDEA of whom they are. Not dumping on UT, but Steve Dulcich is an Engine Masters Challenge, world class engine builder. He's up there with guys like Smokey Yunick and David Vizard. And if you don't know those names, you have ZERO hot rod/engine cred. Period. And Dave F has been a magazine editor for major publications for decades. Sooo...chill and enjoy all of the great work all of these guys are putting in. UT included.
But they are wrong though...
Don't mention Dulcich and Yunick in the same breath please, especially if you can't spell the man's name correctly while preaching about "Hot rod/engine cred." if you don't know the name. Dulcich built some good engines that's correct, Smokey was actually world class though as in hands on in every aspect of every motorsport known including aircraft. Petrochemistry, metallurgy, differential geometry, structural and mechanical engineering, thermodynamics, aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, etc. the man was a true genius, Dulcich built some good engines. I won't bother going into Dave's illustrious career.
@@kylapendley924 How so? Please provide your evidence.
@@FPS1200 Ok google "400 hp 302" and you will find a guy WITH A DYNO that got a ford 302 to 400hp using a 280* baby cam and stock ported heads. He speaks VERY clearly about reversing the pistons there and I have my own 437hp 302 with this same treatment done sooooo.....ok?
LOL this has been going on forever and it does make the block behave differently. Piston slap is a non issue as are valve reliefs (this is why ford had them done on both sides of pistons as well as chrysler through the 60's and early 70's). Chrysler put reversing the pistons in the owners' manual for how to get more power out of their engines until 1967 when they stopped it. Bore taper/piston clearance is what makes pistons slap not rod angularity.
So where is the "proof" it doesn't work....I will wait.
Uncle Tony smarter than frieburger .
That's not saying much
Absolutely not
frieburger is very knowledgeable about many things, but can be a bit cold to people, sometimes. Always sprays dulcich with the garden hose. Why?
@@scottbrown321 because they've known each other for a very long time and understand each other's personalities and don't get on TH-cam to complain and cry about stuff
I like Dulcich and Frieburger but I rolled my eyes at this clip. Roadkill is fun and entertaining but ultimately owned and sponsored by companies with TONS of $$$$. And therefore high dollar components are provided for free- even entire ready to run crate engines with unlimited dyno runs at Westech (Steve Brule is great BTW). So why go after a guy that caters to time clock punching stiffs making Im sure waaaaay under 45k per year? Tonys viewers will NEVER be able to duplicate Motor Trends projects but they can duplicate Tonys projects (Yes those projects are not pretty but they are affordable, doable and FUN.) Sponsored TV and streaming car shows like Roadkill give the illusion that a new set of aluminum heads, full roller valvetrain conversions with Harland Sharpe rocker arms and a fuel injection conversion is super cheap and can be done by anyone to every engine. TH-cam channels that focus on using alot of OEM parts are incredibly popular because its an entry into hot-rodding that does not require a 6 or 7 figure salary- or a big loan.
You absolutely nailed it!
The Motortrend guys are trying to pander to what they think people can afford to do, Uncle Tony makes sure even the youngest rookie can start out and learn tricks of the trade
Your "but hurt" cause your in the tank (and emotional) for Tony . If Engine Masters ain't your show, why u watching? The comparison is dumb, not on point and your gonna cheer on the poor people. Okay How bout sticking to the FACTS. Dulcich and Frieburger ARE CORRECT. Eat it, roll it, chew it. like it, hate it, it doesn't matter. Dulcich and Frieburger ARE CORRECT. Budget builds are "hit & miss" at best. Get a 3rd job or a different hobby.
I worked in a race engine shop for a long time. We did this test many times on all types of engines at customer's request. We never saw any significant gains, maybe 1 hp at the most. There's a reason why performance pistons have their wrist pins centered.
Hi David
It's been suggested there's a hp loss, however small, from the ring seal being disturbed when swapping pistons to other cylenders with no honing. What's your take on the idea that "ZERO" difference would occur?....I figure 1-2%
@@oops1952 zero gain, only faster destruction of your engine.
@@darthhemi1735 My engines lasted fine and ran real strong too. I've heard accusations of premature failure but never met anyone that experienced it. Centred pins are optimal. It's just a matter on what side of the bore the offset looses the least
@@oops1952 The offset loosens what?
@@mrpoizun "Loosens"? Try "looses"
Who actually spins the wrenches for the roadkill guys?
Idk iv seen roadkill spin more Wrenches then uncle hack and at least what roadkill shows u how to doing thing half ass right u never hear them say oh if u offset youe pistons u will hear a little ticking but if that bothers u u are watching the wrong channel nobody wants to build a engine and hear noise only a idiot would want to hear a nose when they start a engine
Piston slap in a cold motor is a reality . Offset pins just hold the skirt against the cylinder so it can't rattle. It's a bandaid
Ya u might hear piston slap with a forged piston but not with a cast pistons how do u think u brake the piston skirt on a cast pistons if u are building a engine using cast pistons and u hear and noise then u got issues
@@dontbestupidshows4623 if you're hearing slap your clearance may be a little much. Doesn't stop anyone though. Blow motor and make video.
I'll say it again the only time u should hear piston slap is with a forged piston not with a cast pistons that's how u brake a cast piston look it up
"I've never proven or disproven it." Then shut up, lol. UTG has done it himself with the slant 6 and described a noticable difference. I don't know that I've ever heard him talk about reversing pistons in any other engine.
Tony's channel is all about hot rodding on a budget. Nobody is going to tear an engine down solely to reverse the pistons, but if you're tearing an engine down anyway why not do it? The old timers thought it was worthwhile.
Never underestimate Old school Wisdom.
Engine Masters is constantly busing "old school wisdom"
Don't confuse wisdom with overly confident. Name one car of his that runs worth a shit?
UTG builds 4 door garbage
Uncle Tony has all the characteristics of a burned out meth addict living in Tennessee because he couldn't hack it in NY real world anymore who's only on TH-cam to collect the ad dollars to feed his meth addiction. He's not even entertaining - his entire audience is RINO trash and armchair experts who think Harley Davidson & Chrysler are the finest garbage ever made and blah blah blah.. he's a Boomer whistling diesel
@@Ironwind1972 Zero, none, nada.
I still side with tiny. He’s got real life experience during the time period and has receipts to back it up. So I would trust his word rather than any “what if’s”
From Leo: I have played in 3 power sports. All it takes is for a famous winner to say he does something and it becomes the holy truth from then on. 20 years later people will still swear buy it, even if it makes no sense. If a famous racer says he put 1oz of dog turd in the crankcase, 75% of the others will be following the dog around with a baggie.
very true .....and a really cunning racer will say they use certain parts and make certain mods knowing they don't work - and knowing the competition will take the bait - hook, line and sinker
but angles and leverage isnt a myth or "urban / winners legend"
TALK IS CHEAP!!! Someone build and Dyno an engine with the pistons installed as intended, then dismantle it, flip the pistons around and then re-dyno! Fuck the theory's, explanations and whiteboard. People can talk ALL DAY, talk doesn't prove ANYTHING. We all agree with people that we like, SO, ACTUALLY TEST IT and put it to bed!
I enjoy roadkill and utg 🤷♂️ In my head if the oe put the pins offset one way to quiet slap and aftermarket put them on center . Wouldn’t flipping the stock ones at least move it in the right direction? If it doesn’t matter why aren’t aftermarket pistons offset to be quieter? From the utg video I seen on this it was just an old school trick he was passing on to people who don’t have roadkill money to buy pistons or build there engine into some 700hp fire breather. It seemed geared towards people playing around with old stuff on a budget.
No its not grate even out of uncle tony's mouth it will have piston slap thats a good way to brake a cast piston i get not haven't 6000 thousand dollars to build a engine then u save up and buy better piston im worried about a 16 year old kid hearing him say that throwing all of there money into a engine and then braking a piston and blowing up there engine there's not a machine shop around that will tell u piston pin offset is a good idea
AND his channel doesn't fleece yer $$$$$
And how dose roadkill fleece your cash iv watched all there episodes iv never once seen them market a part to u like stace david from gears dose so don't know what u are talking about there buddy do u know an episode that I don't know about or something
Not say utg fleece your cash by no means im simply saying iv never seen roadkill try and sell u a part
@@croaker4163 No wonder his shit blows up.
Yet Tony has challenged them to a build off and they are so far a no show. Tony has more experience in Mopars than these 2 guys combined. These guys are so dumb they forget to measure a flywheel before installing the engine in the car. The way they talk about it you would think the yare 20 year old kids who have been turning a wrench for only 5 years.
That's an insult to 20 year old mechanics with 5 years of experience, I should know I wasn't doing stuff that dumb when I was pulling parts off of 3 350s for parts to make one run
Why doesnt UTG just prove his myth to be true?
Used to actually like these guys... Didn't know they were assholes...
I know this now...
Love you unc'
Thank god Freiburger got canned off HotRods pages completely.
Uncle tony is just way cooler than these old sweaty heads
he's a moron.... needs to actually finish high school first...
You know these “old sweaty heads” have been writing, testing and building cars and engines for some of the biggest magazines on the planet for 30+ years? Do you know who they are? They had careers before the silly shows.
@@mattperkins7038 And Tony DeFeo was doing it when they were in strollers and he also started his own magazines where he tested and built cars and engines all without the help of a billion dollar backer like Robert Petersen.
@@jimmartin7881 Steve Dulcich is one of the top engine builders around. I can’t believe I’m having to have this conversation
@@mattperkins7038 No he's not, he's a drunk. Because he was on engine masters? Please, there's hundreds... thousands better than him. Where's his engine shop located if he's such a prolific builder?
Don't know, but it's in direct connection bible to do this. Do the engineers not understand?
You all own WestTech and have every dollar to do this. DO IT instead of calling out a guy working from his garage. Total garbage
Bingo!! They'll test carb spacers in half inch increments as an episode but switching piston orientation is just too much.
Exactly Im burn out on this dyno numbers game tonys sticker is spot on build anything race everything oh weight you need an LS swap efi etc etc and 4500 wheels and tires
@@bbs1969 They are just mad he is proving them wrong on everything and building cars for cheaper than them with less...now everyone is watching him and they sold out and no one wants to watch their garbage.
Oh shut up ya Nancy. Bet these guy out build your ass any day.
BRUH thank you. The prime example of them being deep pocket divas was the gas monkey race. They didn’t even build the car. They had it built and still lost
I can't stand how Tony speaks, but at least he's genuine.
I would actually really like to see that theory put to the test on an dyno
Any time you go out of your way to look good at someone else expense you lose credibility and in your case viewers. BYE
Uncle Tony seems like a down to earth kind of guy. Someone you could talk cars with and just swap stories and advice. Theses two seem like pretentious d bags. If you have a different opinion or approach from theirs, they want to put you down to make themselves seem better. Classic a holes.
hah you dont know the real UT then... hes a narcassistic hack... waste of time who has to blame everyone else for his failures(see the nicks dyno 318 video)... he f'ed that up and doesnt take blame... still waiting on bottle rocket to run 10's... he cant blame the poor results on the driver who volunteers to drive it for him...
@@crunchemagain2030 maybe so but these guys still seem like d bags. thanks for the comment.
@@crunchemagain2030 Well , wait patiently. . . .
Its only been to the strip 3 times , that's just getting the bugs out. . .
It recorded a 1.72 60-foot time last weekend , and that's JUMPIN .
Getting a combination dialed in can take trial and error while you find out what works and what doesn't , especially when its a combo that "shouldn't" work by popular thinking.
@@Richie_the_Fixer 1.72.. that Kia stinger 60' and not impressive for a stripped down car... it will never run 10's
Hey 'Stupid Shows', you miss-titled the video. Trying to start something that wasn't there? I listened to the vid 3x & I heard no mention of Uncle Tony. Did you copy the Roadkill video but the segment that mentioned Uncle Tony wasn't included in this video?
I don't like uncle Tony. And I really don't like all the free press he is getting by saying this one stupid thing.
Damn Has Dulcich ever washed his hair?????
I don't know why anyone would listen to this guy since he immediately said he's never even tried it, it's just his reckless speculation. I haven't reversed any pistons, but I'm not making videos about it.
Apparently neither has UTG or else he would prove it.
In his response video he's counting the cars in his home garage with reversed pistons, he counts 5?
Ok this video has been up for a while, but if there's nothing to reversing the pistons why do tracks have in the rules you can't do this . The local circle track were I live has it in there rules.
Dang... what a bunch of squawking ducks that are out of touch with their own fan base... Issuing a challenge that been proven by the grand master Smokey Yunick... I got his SA published book in my hands. I had a feeling Friedburger was a worm but this just shows it. They got the dyno, they got the funds why don't they do it instead of "issuing a challenge"? Is free power that offensive to these guys, and their sponsors?
Tony's not to bright guys.
He didn't know what Smokey's scale was for at the Garlets museum.
(Early Dyno)
He wanted to add combustion Chambers volume to Cubic Inch Displacement. (??)
Displacement ?
Pistons "Displace" air fuel...not heads !
Heads/Chambers are constant.
Dis...
Place.
Read Tony read.
Well I don't believe Tony was actually talking about building a race engine when he was talking about reversing pistons , He was talking about doing it on a cheap rebuild to get a better [ not as worn thrust face ] and the by-product maybe a slight increase in hp ,We are not all millionaires or keyboard EXPERTS that wan't to ridicule someone that"s more popular than ourselves Take a long look at yourselves
Well if it gains HP then prove it.
Piston reversal
Hp books
how to hotrod small block mopar engines
by larry sheppard
ISBN 0-89586-479-7
LARRY SHEPPARD CHRYSLER ENGINEER 1968-1970 ALSO WORKED AT MOPAR PERFORMANCE
PAGE 36
"REVERSING-For drag racing purposes, stock pistons are usually reversed on the the rod.
This means the piston notch or arrow points to the rear of the engine instead of the front.
The stock piston is machined with the pin offeset and installed in such a manner to load the
skirt against the cylinder wall. This approach makes the engine quiet but slightly increases
the friction. For racing, reversing the piston switches the offset which cuts down on the load
the piston imparts to the cylinder wall. This will make the engine noisier especially when its
cold, but it will decrease the amount of friction and THUS INCREASE THE AMOUNT FO POWER
AVAILABLE. FORGED RACING PISTONS are machined on center, or at least much coloser than stock,
So this reversing trick DOESNT WORK ON FORGED RACING PISTONS. Additionally, keep in mind
that intake notches must be below intake valves and and a dome wont fit into the combustion chamber
reversed!"'
remember mototrend makes money off of sales not what works chrysler engineering had a racing team the ramchargers.
they embarass themselves with a cognitive lack of competency and devalue themselves as experts.
this bit just shows ignorance at its best
remember utg has guys like don garlitz on his show go back and watch
The dude that needs to comb his hair was actually working in David Vizard’s shop when Vizard was actually doing dyno testing on piston flipping. Vizard stated that some engines gained a very small measurable amount of power and some made significant gains. But all tests showed an improvement, so there’s that.
"Just buy better parts with your unlimited budget from the part suppliers that pay you to shill their parts!"
These guys are bought & paid for by big $, I think they might have lost the backyard hot rodder tips &tricks. They have been too busy doing high end stuff to remember the little guy,& instead go ahead & roast him indirectly.💩
high end stuff? hah okay.. yes going to a junkyard and build a running car and drive it 1000 miles... have you seen their sh*t?
Uncle Tony was building engines when you were peeing in your pampers.
the dudes a hack. Frieburger has more Mopar knowledge in his big toe. Cope.
Until somebody tries this and throws it on a dyno, I guess we'll never really know. It doesn't have to be a perfect engine. There are a lot of 318s laying around out there.
UTG just put up that challenge exactly. I bet the eventual teardown of Steve and Frie's 318 shows the pistons reversed, so maybe we still won't know.
@@pete540Z So why does UTG prove his claim himself?
@@VegasRT500 - That's what he's proposing with his challenge. Again, you have experts like David Vizard saying the theory is sound, but these two wanted to make a joke about it. They should all get together and do a controlled dyno test, pulling the engine apart and rotating the pistons. Start with a set of rod/pistons that are stacked up with the same length, a square block, and do the test both ways on the same day.
So they just tested this on a dyno and the engine gained a whole lot of nothing with the pistons reversed....
@@turdferguson9190
Can you tell me who tested it? Is there a video?
Thanks
As tony says, when building an engine dont overlook anything, that 1/2 of a horsepower X 100 adds up
The road kill crew must be jealous of Uncle Tony.
HAHAHHAH jealous of pile of sh*t like bottle rocket and a 200$ slower than dirt miata project?
@@darthhemi1735 Moron, the Miata project is for low budget tooling around town and Autocross. It will do well. You, OTOH, not doing too well.
Roadkill guys wear snapbacks with no dirt or grease on them
That should say enough
That's a burn. Level 10 cookout.
Uncle Tony didn't destroy a dump truck to make a wheely truck that self destructed the first time it was on the track. Did they ever get that working? And need I mention the Boost Caboose? How about the 3 way wank fest with Avengers?
"destroy" Mate, it wasn't going to get better if they didn't buy it
@@olssong7941 Now it's absolute scrap.
@@heliarche And you're a moron
@@olssong7941 The truck sat there, driveable with some work. They chopped it up, blew the V drive, did nothing else with it. If they'd have actually made a viable Wheely racer with it, it'd still be stupid but at least it would have worked. They made it do 2-3 wheelies, blew it up and fucked off to Motortrend on demand.
@@heliarche So you want the car cultures to be boring?
Man what a clickbait title. Dulcich and Freiburger were perfectly respectful in this.
Been hearing that Mopar Myth for years,I even asked the engine builder where I worked at 30 year ago this question.......He just looked at me and said......Why would you go through that?
because when the class you run in requires the same motor....
.
having ANY slight advantage wins races
Perfect answer if you don't know.
It's not a Mopar thing it started with the flat head ford guys in the 1940s
@@davidleonard8369 The man started in the engine machine work around 66 after taking a machinst class in college and done it till 4 year ago due to his eyesight.........machining/building engines,I was Lucky to work with him a couple of years at a local machine shop East Tn. back in early 90,s........where he taught me on re-sizing/checking rods and installing pistons and balancing.Very smart man and knew ALOT of diff. engines.....not just Ford,Mopar and G.m. .......You ever worked in a Engine Machine shop?
@@chrishensley6745 The fact that I can hold a +_ .0001 tolerance with a sunnen hone and I have two separate types of tools, one box says Mac on it and one says Kennedy doesn't make piston flipping irrelevant. You and I are not the only ones viewing the channel that understand that we measure each piston and final hone the bore for that piston hopefully using a torque plate.
I think all of you know who David Vizard is. In one of his Powertech 10 videos he promotere Uncle Toms Garage. That says a lot.
Also must note, tony is not paid advertisement like this silly kids show roadkill. Yall just mad because more people follow him vs paying to watch store bought crap.
rofl UT is trying to get paid advertisements... he will sell you a tshirt... he is begging these companies for parts. He trashed his couple of free camshafts...
True, it's kids that don't know any better and want to see burnouts that are their main demo.
Ha! Ha! Ha! These are old tricks from a time when you actually had to be creative to build power, because you couldn't always just have it shipped to you in a box!!!
You tried everything you could think of to gain a little edge over the next guy. I've never seen dino numbers on it, but it would stand to reason based on the fact that some modern performance engines employ offset cylinders, which would produce a similar effect.
And remember, we weren't banging on those old cast pistons with seven hundred horses either!
If UTG had these guys budget, the mustard seed would move mountains. I do respect where these boys came from, but most guys in this game are not endowed enough to have mega hp builds between the rails so any gains however small are most welcome. Check book racers were never my thing.
hah yeah he could screw up even more 318 builds and waste more of Nicks dyno times(and shipping and engine to canada and hours of videos)... hah ill wait till his pos 4 door sh*tbox runs 10s....
@@crunchemagain2030 Can you even walk with the weight of the crap you're keeping in your mouth just to spew in everyone's direction?
Friebuger could not even go head to head with my 20 year old son when it comes to building a engine
I first learned of the piston flip while restoring my 51 Hudson hornet ...smokey yunick would do that in his 7x race motors ...mind you I never tried it in mine ..... Last year I decided to freshen up my 302 in my fox ...while it was out I decided to flip them .... Definitely can notice some more umph in it ...screams higher in the redline and by my butt dyno makes a little more power .... Before the flip it dynoed at 254 wheel .....all I've done was fresh rings and bearings and hone job ...I'm due at the dyno in June after I'm done painting my car ...time shall tell ...but definitely no piston slap at all and has great oil pressure ...I love roadkill through and through ..even more the utg ...but they have a dyno at the disposal ...put up or shut up time !!!
@Darrin Burt hit up my channel ..I got some videos or her and now some recent Videos of my new find ....a 53 Hudson super jet
It's been awhile but the Hudson 6 piston pins are centerline I believe .... The 7x from HRS was a crate motor retrofit by dealers and may have different piston setup.