My personal recommendation would be to use more sweet seasonings, those used in baking like cinnamon or clove. Savory seasoning isn’t going to do your coffees many favors unless you’ve got a tomato forward Kenyan or woody Sumatra.
I think how seasoning affects brewing will depend on several factors, one of which may be RPM. The amount of seasoning needed will depend on a lot of factors too - burr size, grind size, coating, rpm and probably others. The Niche runs at 330 rpm and the Key runs at ~60-130 rpm, and I suspect the latter may be more affected by seasoning because of the lower RPM, but that's just a hypothesis. We surely need some laser PSD data about the effects of burr seasoning, but I definitely don't think it's a myth - Eric Mann has already shared laser PSDs of his ULTRA grinder with the SSP HU burrs, and after a couple dozen pounds of coffee, the quantity of fines changed a lot (less fines for the same median particle size in the case of seasoned burrs), which seems to go along your faster brewing pour over. I think this is caused mostly by the rough surface finish polishing off as the burrs season, which reduces friction and disfavors crushing while the burrs season more (crushing creates more fines than cutting does). Teeth sharpness may also play a small role but I suspect polishing is a lot more important. As for the differences in extraction yield, those are tricky because you would probably need to dial in both brews such that they run with a similar brew time - brew time is one of the most important factors determining EY for pour over. Your shots running much faster on the brand new burrs seems surprising, but I would not be super confident that the zero point stayed the same every time on the Niche - this is the only aspect that annoys me about the Niche (i.e., keeping the same zero point and avoiding slight shifts in grind size at a similar notch over time). It is also possible that your seasoned burrs have been used to the point where the teeth are becoming slightly duller, which will increase the production of fines again, reducing EY with a similar shot time. When comparing taste it's also extremely important to clean your seasoned burrs thoroughly before comparing, it's really surprising how much of an impact this can have on taste, and it could explain alone why the brand new burrs tasted better. I don't think brand new burrs necessarily taste bad, it's just that the gradual shift in fines fraction and particle size over the first few dozen pounds can make repeatability kind of a nightmare until the burrs are seasoned.
Also, when I refer to "fines" above, I'm referring to particles in the range 10-80 microns - measuring these with sifting is extremely hard, and a real mess. We really need laser diffraction data, I think we'll have a lot more of these in the near future. It's also extremely hard to compare the fraction of fines because it changes vastly when you shift the grind size, so you have to compare them at a very similar median particle size in order to draw useful conclusions, it's hard to tell if you did here based on just 3 different grind sizes. It's just extremely hard to measure this reliably.
Yeah I’m sure there is a lot more to this, and while testing and preparing this video I of course looked at your blog post. Now I’m sure there’s science to the process of seasoning, and some changes in the grind consistency etc are expected to happen. But I feel like these effects aren’t necessarily something the average, or even most enthusiast coffee drinkers need to concern themselves with. I think the myth here is the overall misconception that new burrs won’t produce good coffee, and I think that is the conversation worth having as most people don’t have access to kilos/pounds of coffee to go through the process. On top of there being no easily tangible way of knowing if/when burrs are seasoned. It is an interesting topic, I appreciate your thoughts on this for sure and glad you chimed in.
@@Sprometheus I agree new burrs can definitely produce great coffee. My first pour over out of the EG1 and Ultra burrs was really magical (I happened to land on dial in by chance). With pour over it won't be that much of an issue imo, but the quality will slowly improve. With espresso I think it's way more important just for repeatability, it's not that the coffee will taste better, but rather that dialling in will be less of a nightmare.
If you have the patience, I think this could be great: dial in both burrs to the same shot time, then pull 5-6 shots and see how much your timings, flowrates etc vary with each burr. I know it's a lot but in my experience you need that many shots at least to really capture random gushers and other flukes.
Try this with flat burrs. I had to run 20 lbs of coffee through my 64mm SSP Cast burrs before they tasted good. Seasoning absolutely matters when it comes to flat burrs, at least.
I’m not so sure. I can’t help but feel like this is all in our heads, something we’ve believed for so long the expectations are there and hard to see past, I do have a new flat burr grinder and I’ve been making drinks on it, testing extraction, etc and been very happy with what it produces. Along with that, there’s a video from Whole Latte Love where they spoke with the head of Eureka I believe, and he said conicals are harder to season than flats. Which, I mean, not sure what that means or if there’s anything but anecdotal evidence to support it.
Agreed, although it's relatively well documented that large diameter cast burrs need 20-50kg seasoning. At around 30-35lbs seasoning, the resulting coffee of my CVs was greatly enhanced. I'm probably around 40lbs now and am doing 5lb maintenance seasonings every month until I surpass 100lbs.
@@Sprometheus I would talk to Lance Hedrick about this. He put out an extensive documentation on his findings throughout the 30 lbs seasoning process on the cast burrs.
@@Sprometheus I recently got a Timemore Sculptor 078. The first four or five brews I made with the grinder were the best coffee I've had and a long time, and I just chose the grind setting based on my previous grinder being best at about 2/3 of the way from coarse to fine, except I got it backwards on the new grinder and it was 2/3 of the way from fine to course, but it came out excellently. After about five brews, however, I was not able to reproduce what I got at first. I varied the grind coarseness, slightly altered the amount of coffee, and set the motor to 1400 RPM from the middle setting of 1100 RPM that it was initially set at. Eventually I got something that was pretty good, although not like at first. Then I remembered I'd been saving about 7 pounds of coffee that I didn't use for seasoning the new grinder and I thought maybe I should do that. So I put about 5 pounds of coffee through it, not running it more than say 30 seconds at a time, on the coarsest setting or close to that, and afterward the coffee was terrible, even after trying to adjust things as before. I took the burrs out and cleaned everything--it wasn't very dirty--but that didn't help. In my opinion seasoning burrs is a fiction and probably wears out your burrs more quickly if you do it above and beyond your normal usage. I guess some might say I need to put another 80 pounds through it or something like that, but I have my doubts, because right out of the box it made great coffee for a while. What does that mean? That the dulling the burrs slightly makes worse coffee? And the burrs on this grinder are sort of hybrid ghost burrs, so I'm not sure if they require the same seasoning. Update: Although I had tried adjusting the coarseness the grind a little bit up-and-down after seasoning, I figured since seasoning supposedly makes the ground particles larger, I should make a bigger adjustment toward finer particles, so instead of 12 plus or minus 1/2, I set it to 10, and that worked much much better. I have usually found in general when there is a problem with the coffee not coming out right, that the grind needs to be set finer rather than coarser.
I love how coffee can still be so perplexing, here we are still legitimately dealing with “old wife’s’ tales”, that are substantially influencing how products are being manufactured in 2022. Frustratingly exciting. Thanks for taking the time to look at this, I’m sure at some point someone will dedicate & document months or years of research into this in a peer reviewed journal but these first steps into answering these questions are just as important. ✌🏻❤️☕️
Thanks Fenton, and yeah I hope someone does do something like that. Jonathan Gagne did something like this in a more scientific way, and found results that lean towards the need for seasoning. But that seems based on things that make minimal changes in the cup, which to me makes it feel less important to those who’re looking to just make good coffee and not worry about grind particle size.
I’d be interested to see the same set of tests run on a flat burr grinder. With its wider particle distribution spread a conical burr grinder is probably more likely to hide any burr issues. One thing that I’ve heard can be a problem with new burrs, especially flat burrs, is static. So some of the main improvements seen once burrs are seasoned could simply be workflow and user experience.
Appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I can’t imagine having the patience for this. In my experience, I haven’t noticed anything with seasoning affecting my flavor, I think that’s kind of out there. But I did notice, when I first got my Comandante, that grind settings didn’t seem to be the same when I switched back to them. I was also trying to learn the grinder so it could have easily been user error, but I seem to remember switching between two grind settings and getting vastly different results when I returned back to one.
Very interesting. Watching the video I started thinking that maybe the phenomenon is based on people learning the grinder over time rather than the burrs “improving”.
I would that that could be part of it. The other part is there are 3 phases of life for a set of burrs, new, worn, and dull. And we see the worn stage as the ideal because it’s where most of the burrs lifespan is spent.
Thanks for this! I didn’t really season my burrs when my new grinder arrived. I think things will take of itself over time. Also I didn’t like the thought of dark, oily and musty smelling coffee filling the dead space in the grinder and becoming rancid. I just started grinding with the regular coffees I drink and clean my grinder regularly to sustain clean taste. As Spro argues, I also think seasoning a grinder with supermarket coffee as often is recommended is a waste of coffee and all the resources and labour that went into producing it.
Thanks for making another interesting video to help shed some light on another controversial coffee topic. Yup, like you, I started using my Niche Zero right out of the box. I don’t really see any point in seasoning the burrs as some ppl insisted that I should. The espresso tasted great and certainly solved the channeling problem I started having when I upgraded to Flair 58x when I used my old OXO conical burr grinder. Keep up your great work! ☕️
Thank you for this - I recently bought a new grinder and was really struggling to find advice on this topic that had any empirical basis. The lore around seasoning burrs is reminiscent of seasoning cast iron pans in that there are people who hold very strong opinions on the subject simply because knowledge of it implies that you're a subculture insider, regardless of whether it actually produces better results.
I felt the same way. I also thing it’s the same with cars too. Back when machining wasn’t as accurate it made sense to take it easy and let the engine wear a bit and remove any metal flake, but now stuff is super accurate and it just seems like a lore that sticks around,
@@Sprometheus I recently got a new car and Mazda recommended in the manual a break-in period for 600 miles. They recommend going easy on the engine during that time, no full throttle high RPM for extended periods of time and also to not hard stop the engine and not to race the engine. But overall tolerances are good on modern engines and some of them have additional steps at the factory. I listen to the what the engineers of the engines say.
Got a Niche in February and the only coffee wasted was dialing it in surprisingly fine for espresso. I can say that after a couple months near daily use, I am trending toward a bit coarser grind to achieve the same shot. This seems to agree with your experience FWIW. The coffee is still good. That's what's important to me.
Thanks for the video. 20 y/o Macap M7 is being replaced by a NicheZero. Was not looking forward to seasoning the new grinder burr. Finer grind until to yield desired extraction beats wasting time and beans.
This was a interesting video for sure! To be honest I only ever started hearing about burr seasoning when I started looking for a flat burr grinder and especially when people starting talking about ssp burrs etc. Will be very interesting to see the comparison when it comes to flat burrs.
This was really interesting! I have a Niche on order and based on various reviews, I was anticipating needing a fairly lengthy break in before it started producing peak quality brews especially for filter. These results surprised me, but also makes me feel a lot less worried about the seasoning process 😀 Thanks for doing this - I can only imagine the amount of patience required to keep switching burr sets around, cleaning in between, and measuring all of that data.
This is interesting and challenges what I thought I knew! I didn't waste coffee to season my niche burrs, as it seemed too wasteful and I was happy enough with the results from the start. I did feel that my pourovers got better after a few months of use (better clarity) but after watching this I'm wondering if it was burr seasoning, as I had assumed. Maybe I simply got better at making pourover!
Maybe you got used to it as well? I found the Niche making way too many fine particles for pour over and French press. I only kept it for three weeks before selling it though. My Comandante was blowing it out of the water, and hand grinding wasn’t much slower. However, I wasn’t making espresso at the time, and now I’m looking to get another Niche!
@@VincentGalbo yeah, it does make more fines than I'd like for pourover but on reflection I think I did adapt my recipe towards a 1:15 instead of 1:17 to reduce the bitterness I got from the fines. Lance Hendrick also has a technique for trapping more fines on the wall of the paper filter, which helps to a degree. I do see myself getting a flat burr grinder for filter at some point though. The Niche is great for that classic conical style espresso though and it's so easy to use so I'm definitely keeping mine.
@@chrisdturner the Ode is a really great flat burr grinder. Very, very happy with that. Commandante is the only other grinder I’ve found that can compete with the Ode in flavor it produces. Also, I did end up ordering a Niche. Very excited to use that to make some espresso.
Thanks for exploring this question! I've wondered how much a difference seasoning actually makes and have been skeptical that its worth it, especially for home use where a tasty cup is a tasty cup. But one question that I don't think was addressed is if the seasoning process can improve consistency from shot to shot, day to day, week to week. Does a new set of burrs have a break-in period where they are changing quickly/significantly, and once they've reached "seasoned" status do they have a long period of (relatively) consistent results until they've reach end of life? I am personally skeptical that it would make a noticeable difference since there are so many variables that affect shot consistency (i.e. bean age, temp/humidity, puck prep, etc..), but I think this could be a question worth asking and exploring, especially for a cafe setting where having a consistent product is important. Also curious how this may or may not translate to flat burrs, especially those with a unimodal type design in mind.
Yeah on the long term it’s harder to test and it’s something I would like to have data on. But if I was a bettin’ man I’d wager that the answer is yes there is a point that burrs reach at some point in their lifespan where they function the most consistently and for the longest period of time. That sweet spot between new and worn. I did recently get a flat set of unimodal burrs so expect to see something more on this topic in the future.
Absolutely! Taking requests on other things we do in coffee making and if they actually matter, so if there’s other things you’d like to see tested im all ears.
@@Sprometheus absolutely! First thing that comes to mind. Not sure how you would start testing it but “purging” a grinder in between different coffees when doing a cupping. It kinda seems a bit wasteful in my opinion.
I think 3rd wave has been good about that. So many myths have already been dispelled especially in espresso and pour over technique compared to the 90's say. Seasoning is just the latest one to go and kinda weird no one before Spro questioned it. Seems like it was an easy matter of dispelling it, if ya got a refractometer which all the coffee content makers have.
Thank you for this video! I am new to much of this upper end coffee world and have already improved my game tons with your and others videos. Having a pricy (for me) new Sculpter 78s coming to me soon (Did the Kickstarter) I had wondered/worried about this 'need' to season the new burrs. It not just waistfull it is costly too. I am totaly relaxed now after seeing this and no longer feel I will be missing anything by just not seasoning in the new grinder. I am a geek-tech type and feel the thought and points hit on by you will in must likelihood translate to flate burrs too, at least enough so that I have no worries. Thanks again! I was looking for this content, and you had it well covered!
Two months ago, I bought a 3-year-old Ceado E5P with 64mm stock burrs off eBay. The previous owner claimed to have run about 100lbs of coffee through the grinder over the course of 2 years. I've run the grinder enough to be familiar with its flavor and then on a whim I bought a brand-new set of Ceado stock burrs. I've run around 20 shots through it since the swap and I could detect no flavor difference between the old and new burrs so I put the old ones back. Then this video came out. Oh well, I now have a spare set of burrs if I ever come across some rocks. Which happened last week to my new Ceado E37S (83mm burrs) and it chipped a tooth. Fortunately, it was covered by warranty. I never did find the rock debris, fortunately I found the tiny burr chip in the bottom of the portafilter. After pulling the shot.
Before I watched this, I purchased a DF64V with SSP cast lab sweet burrs. Upon arriving, I was very disappointed in how bad and yes, I mean bad the coffee tasted in my pour over and yes, I am like many of you a coffee geek and weigh beans, water and use third wave water, so my experiments are precise. After running probably 2-3lbs through the grinder, magic happened, the coffee started to go from muddy and bitter to smooth and high clarity with many amazing flavors you would expect. After also doing sift tests with my kruve and making sure brew times matched, I cant exactly tell you why, but I can say that my tastbuds know that seasoning, at least in my specific grinder and burr set makes a huge difference
I've put ~30 lb of coffee through my two year old Lido ET. I always assumed that the grind size changed during seasoning - but I've also tweaked my pourovers considerably since starting with it, so maybe the seasoning helps the user more than the grinder. OE does claim in the manual that it produces a faster grind once the burrs are seasoned, I suppose that could be a problem related to low RPM and hand grinding, due to higher arm torque before the burrs smoothen out. They actually don't even use the word seasoning but call it a "grind in." Again, maybe this is a user thing since people tend to get stronger if they're hand grinding on the daily.
I wonder if "seasoning" is more about getting used to a new grinder and how that machine works than the actual burrs themselves. I noticed going from a cheap grinder to a better Brevel grinder to a 1zpresso, each grinder required a bit of a learning curve to get the best out of it
I got my Niche two months ago.Honestly those first days coffee was just horrible. It produced incredible amount of fines. My v60 was clogged by fines even though I ground at 50+ setting. Espresso was not good either. In comparison to the little Wilfa grinder I owned previously it was a major step back. However, after some time and couple of kilos of coffee ground the amount of fines produced by the Niche was at acceptable level and I could dial both espresso and pour over to more fine settings. It is really ok now, though I am hoping to be even better. This video shows that seasoning is a myth and I now really don't understand what is (or was) going on with my Niche.
Not so much my opinion but more based on my work over the last decade on burrs. I would have to say with out any doubt, any style of burr flat or conical benefits drastically from seasoning, seasoned with coffee in the grinder or any pre-seasoning method. Throw coatings in to the mix and the game changes again, it’s a frustrating thing, or was a decade ago when customers would complain after their burrs had just been changed on a service.
So I'm pretty new to home brewing and recently upgraded to an urbanic 070s, with the stock burrs coming unseasoned. I didn't take time to season them and the grinder was definitely still usable but I've definitely seen and improvement in consistency the last month or so, especially in the espresso range of the grinder. In my first 2-3 months of ownership (first 30 pounds of coffee) I often found myself with a coffee I thought I had dialed in, suddenly running twice as fast without changing anything. The past month (beyond 30 pounds) or so I seem to be getting more consistent dose out and shot times. Machine is a Gaggia glass IC with the 9 bar opv swap
Very interesting topic! One thing I havn't heard you talking about... What coffee did you use for this test? As we know higher grown coffee is more dense, therefore harder to grind so to speak.
This video is purely an opinion, not showing much. Too little control of the experiments to draw any solid conclusions. For example, you would need to dial in for exactly same extaction time for tasting burr differences. You used the same grinder, different burrs: how do you guarantee that both burrs had the same alignment, or even that there is no variation between burrs? You would need to observe the same burrs over a break-in period to see the effects. Sieving is not an effective method for the purpose as used here: the particles that are important for the extraction dynamics have a size of
I’m pretty sure I stated this was my opinion, and not going to be across the board. But thanks for essentially restating it in a way to try and discount my findings. Essentially what you’re saying is burrs change over time, yeah, we all know that. For the better, maybe, or maybe we just feel like it’s better because it’s in a place between new and worn for the majority of their lifespan. In the end all I aim to do with a video like this, and most of my videos containing tests is start a conversation about a topic that seems like the industry as a whole agrees on without much tangible evidence that actually matters, like differences in taste.
@@Sprometheus I am *not trying* to find a way to discount your findings. I am merely pointing out the gaps in the process of obtaining those “findings” and why they might be misleading to the viewers of this video.
I think the idea of seasoning burrs is due to people using a new type of burr set or grinder and not being used to the changed setup where the actual seasoning is mostly regression to the mean.
Great video as usual. I feel like the argument around taste and seasoning burrs is pretty pointless considering they all eventually get seasoned anyway. I could understand the argument of seasoning effecting grind speed in a cafe situation where a shop needed some good consistency from the start and therefore seasoned the burrs.
Nice video, thank you! What are your thoughts on this topic when transferred to flat burrs? I've been grinding with the same set of 65mm flat burrs in my Mahlkonig K30 Vario for ten years and only starting to approach the territory of changing them (1600-2000lbs of coffee ground). When new, as they were used, I had to move the spacing to a finer grind for several months, but for years now, it's not required any significant changes (for a given coffee) in grind setting. Great-tasting coffee from brand new to now. As the grinding mechanics are different between conical burrs and flat burrs, will you be even looking at new/seasoned flat burrs?
The point is that the grind will change periodically until this has happened, pretty sure some brands don't require it, maybe Mazzer don't want to spend the extra in production to clean up the burrs or maybe they think that allowing them to season gives a longer lasting finish.
Funny, I always thought the opposite, I thought conical burrs benefit more from seasoning than flats. My theory is that there's a larger surface area on conicals. But not all grinders 'need' it as much.
I think the big issue we’re dealing with when it comes to seasoning is there really is no clear, scientific and agreed upon information. You can find people arguing both it’s more important on flat, others on conicals, some days conicals need less seasoning and some say more. In my mind the whole point of this video is to empower people to try this for themselves and maybe not spend a lot of time and coffee chasing a ghost.
@@Sprometheus i completely agree, not worth it to season them, but ya might get lucky and your grinder will be better over time, or good from the start.
@@BensCoffeeRants true, i found my flats took longer, but i also have not had many grinders. i think it might also depend on torque, grind size most commonly used, coffees used, speed, etc.
Definitely shows that no matter what the results say, the small differences in the science result in no difference on the palate. Filter coffee is far more forgiving than espresso when it comes to grind size anyway. I can radically alter the grind setting for filter and taste no difference in the results. Espresso is a different matter though, and I think the only thing to mention regarding new burrs vs old burrs is that (what I've found with mine anyway) is that I've had to adjust my grind size down from a 9 to 10 to a 5-6 due to the wearing of my burrs over time to achieve the 2:1 ratio coffee to water in 25-30 seconds.
Well, you did have to adjust the new burrs four notches finer, even if they we’re zeroed. I have also experienced my zero point move after just the first few kilos of beans. So, one of the benefits I’ve heard regarding seasoning is consistency, which I think you have proved here.
Many have argued that it’s difficult to even zero the Niche. But I don’t think this necessarily proved consistency, it could very easily be a lack of fines.
@@Sprometheus Well, it’s consistency in the sense, that the zero point stops drifting after seasoning. Or at least not as fast as it does with new burrs.
This is really interesting and cool to have seen the tests! I wonder if there is a big difference for burr seasoning between flat burrs and conicals. When I got my new c40, it seemed to perform really well out of the gate, but my flat burrs on my fellow ode definitely needed some coffee running through them for some consistency in grind.
Have you tried changing the plastic burr holder for a CNC-ed metal one? I have and I've wondered if the burrs would season more uniformly with the metal ring than they have with the plastic one.
The best cup I’ve had so far was from my ode. Brand new burrs. As they seasoned in I’ve started getting a lot more ultra fines that I didn’t have before.
I once worked in a cafe using a new Mazzer ZM, and found that out of the box, the filter burrs produced extremely flat tasting cups. Very little sweetness, low clarity and very high acidity. This continued until roughly 10kg (22lbs) of coffee had been run through the burrs and then they started performing as expected. Perhaps flat burrs have a tendency to require seasoning moreso than conicals but this just my experience that I found interesting, if not a little frustrating.
I have a theory larger burrs or conicals (larger surface area) benefit more from seasoning. I haven't noticed much of a change with smaller flat burrs like 65mm and under but did notice a big difference after a while with 2 niche zeros and 1zpresso k plus (also conical) strangely the 3rd Niche Zero I tried (more recently) seemed like it didn't need seasoning. Unseasoned conicals were usually similar to your description it was giving acidic unbalanced coffee which seemed under extracted.
I guess the idea behind seasoning is not to get a better grind quality, but a more repeatable one. The sharp and thin cutting edges of a new burr set will wear relatively fast at the beginning, sothat after a quite small amount of ground coffee the particle size for a same grinder setting will begin to vary. After this phase of a fast wearing process, the burrs will start to wear much more constantly. Just my theory... maybe you can notice with the new burrs, that quite a lot re-adjusting is needed.
Always felt "seasoning" burrs was kind of a weird idea. Sure, there may be differences in particles, but I'm not sure it would be a big enough difference to really matter. This video proves that, but only for one grinder and one burr, so someone with a completely different grinder and burr set might have more of a difference. Still, any testing on this matter is good to have. We still have much to learn about even the "simple" act of grinding coffee.
I was too busy having fun with my Niche when it finally arrived that I didn't care about seasoning the burrs. "GIVE ME THE COFFEE!" was my only thought. Thanks for doing this research, so we don't have to !
With the brand new burr set of Italmil burrs for my DF64 it was not possible to do a V60 without stalling. After roughly 2kg this changed significantly. So at least in my experience and for this specific burr set, seasoning is a thing.
Ya, this video is hilariously narrow minded. Conicals are VERY different than flat burrs and flat machined burrs definitely benefit from minor seasoning where cast burrs require A LOT seasoning
@@wkarnofel634 In my experience I thought conicals actually benefit from more seasoning (makes more of a dramatic difference to me! vs flat burrs which are usually pretty good out of the box), but I have heard people have issues with flat burrs (which may be more apparent when doing pour overs) before seasoning.
Very nice video, I enjoyed watching it and secretly smiling cause I too believe that the only seasoning the new burrs need is to eliminate industrial defects, and for that you need less than 1 kilo of coffee P S. Imagine a cafè that needs days and days to season the new burrs and offer bad coffee at the consumers, another proof is that
This excellent presentation answers a question I have been wondering about for quite some time. I really enjoy all of your videos and have learned so much from them. I use the Melodrip every day for pour overs thanks to your recommendation. Your really have enhanced my knowledge of how to brew great coffee. A million thanks.
It's interesting that the seasoned burrs produced 3x the fines of the new burrs! This is the opposite of what people say about seasoning! I'm confused! Maybe it's just the CONSISTENCY of the amount of fines that changes rapidly during initial use?
Just a thought, maybe seasoning a new grinder is more than just the burrs losing sharpness.I can imagine the burrs get aligned a little better by grinding kilograms of coffee through them, and that might have an impact too. I would be interesting to compare a 2 year old niche to a new one. There's obviously also the psychological effect of getting used to gear, so you might appreciate it more after a while and get better tasting results because of your technique, and not the burrs per se?
How does seasoning burrs affect the sonic qualities of the coffee? Oh wait, I'm confusing that with the supposed benefits breaking in audio equipment--speakers, amplifiers etc.
Based on what you have presented here, it seems to me that seasoning burrs is more of a coffee shop problem than a home barista concern. The volume going through a typical coffee shop means that brand new burrs are a consistency issue. Most cafes want to dial in their grind and rely on it throughout the day. If burrs are brand new and can produce a different grind for bean pound 1 vs bean pound 10 that's a quality issue for the cafe.
As far as I am concerned, I always thought that seasoning should help with repeatability from shot to shot, not necessarily in terms of taste. And that always seemes quite reasonable to me: with the first kg, you kind of "grind away" the ultrasharp and maybe inconsistent edges where the material thickness goes near zero, leaving the burr with a more uniform "not-so-sharpness", that lasts very long in this state. Think of it like leathering your razor after sharpening, just in another scale
Yup, I go with that theory, as an engineer, not a coffee expert, the first stage of "wear" is basically knocking down high spots. this happens quite quickly on very sharp edges, after which they settle down and wear at a much slower rate.
This is just like audio. I came from the headphone part of the audiophile world, and this kind of thing happens there too. People believing that old amplifiers were better than new amplifiers because somehow their transistors have become more stable due to breaking in, some people turn on their whole system for hundreds of hours of white noise just to break in the transistors. So this is similar concept.
My old burrs needed replacing as clumpy & extraction weights were all over the place for 25 secs New burrs nice fluffy grind no clumps but extraction weights still all over the place Any ideas ? Mazzer mini , using scales , weighing beans in & after grind too
😮 You again hit the spot with today’s video! Just got my new red speed 64mm SSP HU burrs today and am still speculating if seasoning these makes even any sense. Thanks for putting my mind to rest!
I would be interested to see at what point the unseasoned burrs even out with the seasoned and if the seasoning process is just getting the burrs to a point where they don't drift over time as they are broken in which would be annoying in a cafe setting
I haven’t noticed that at the moment, I’m using a new set of flat burrs now. But I think it would be hard to notice for me because I’m very regularly switching coffees.
Really great timing as I'd been thinking about this topic recently as I have a Niche coming in June. I've been in high end audio long enough to know when to recognise snake oil nonsense but this seemed like it might actually have some merit at a mechanical level. Glad to know I won't have to bother.
With a new one coming it may be worth running some tests of your own over the next year to see if you notice a difference. But like I said in the video, I wouldn’t grind and toss coffee just for the purpose of “seasoning”.
When I bought Pharos initial brew were under extracted about 15-16%. I was disappointed but I thought maybe they need seasoning. And after some time eextractios went back to proper range. Maybe riginalmazzer burr are preseasonEd?
I dunno man, every grinder I've ever gotten new, the burrs have seasoned in. With the Niche specifically, I had to grind about 10 settings coarser at first for similar results as what I get now with seasoned burrs, and from what I hear that's pretty common across owners of that grinder. Interestingly, I have not had that experience on other grinders, where the seasoning in just seems to effect the strength of the brew... My first few brews with SSP MP in my DF64 were hollow AF despite extra long brew times. I think the changes during seasoning are likely both on burr edges and on parts in the grinder itself as they all seem to be impacted a little differently in my limited experience (only having purchased 3 grinders which all have seasoned in different ways).
I don’t think you can really do a seasoned vs unseasoned test when you’re using burrs that are 2/3rds through their life cycle. You need to buy two fresh sets, season one just enough, and then test. :)
@@Sprometheus exactly the argument I thought could be given. I guess this is actually not a bad test. It’s still much the same/within error at that age.
I’m using a Ceado (flat burrs). When it was brand new it was very inconsistent. I couldn’t make 2 identical shots back to back. After seasoning it, it became something else. I thought I had a bad grinder at first, but seasoning fixed everything for me.
I don't think it was the burrs needing seasoning. I too have a ceado e37sd. I think it's the nooks, crannies, and crevices on the burrs and in the grind chamber that need to get filled with ground coffee. In fact, I experienced this a week ago when I took apart my grinder and thoroughly cleaned it. After cleaning, I needed about 3 to 5 shots to get consistency.
@@CorrupteddSanity but it didn’t take just 5 shots to be consistent when it was new. It took about 7 kilos of grinding till it started producing decent consistent shots.
@@7amadexplains477 that hasn't been my experience with three grinders. 2 flat burrs and 1 conical. Doesn't mean I disbelieve you. Just saying your experience is different to mine with three grinders.
@@CorrupteddSanity Yea I understand. Btw some companies would deliver you a pre-seasoned burr. I saw an interview with Ceado’s CEO saying he doesn’t agree with this idea, but that’s him. I never understood the exact logic on how seasoning affects consistency, I just know it has to do with something, otherwise no one would’ve talked about it :p
@@7amadexplains477 theoretically - the burrs are slightly starting to dull. So some beans are exposed to ultra sharp blades while others are exposed to slightly dulled. Therefore there will be inconsistency. On top of that, the burrs themselves are developing a coating - a patina. So some beans will be exposed to uncoated parts of the burr and grind a bit more. While the beans exposed to the coated sections of the burrs will eject out faster. I understand and have experienced the coating aspect.
The question that keeps creeping into my thought chamber is this: Looking at new burrs and old burrs - there is an obvious difference in wear. The question I am pondering is this: Are we all consuming micro-fine particles of case hardened steel over the course of time? if so what is this doing to our health, and more important how does it affect the taste of coffee? Do a video on that one Spro.
In theory, the biggest problem with consuming small steel particles would be if they're too sharp and you cut yourself. The human body is not made to absorb metals like that, so they will practically just go through you (just like you would with plastic). Considering taste there are two different factors to consider: 1) What metals are the burrs made kft. Consider how you cannot "taste" your cutlery, so it should be similar, unless I am missing some exotic metals which can be tasted (you may argue iron, but even that you don't actually taste) there shouldn't be a material you could taste. 2) The dose/concentratuon of the metal in each cup. Even if you could taste the metal, it's likely similar to putting a single grain of salt into a bowl of soup, even though you can technically taste the salt, your taste buds are not sensitive enough for the small concentration. But that's just my two cents
Sad thing for me about this video is that the community weren't really mystical about seasoning conical burrs at all. Everyone was using their Niche Zero to full potential from the get go without binning through huge amounts of coffee. The magic is mostly about flat burr grinders, where it makes a HUGE difference for either usability/consistency and taste too. I'm not really sure why you want to prove something from the backfoot. Also there is a some more to seasoning than the areas you brought up, that add up to user experience (ex.: the range between choking a brew and water running through).
Well I think the sad thing about this comment is you think you speak for the entire “community”, because I think it’s clear from many of the comments on here that you don’t. Do you not think I looked this up? Read blog posts, combed forums, gathered opinions, and even had an experience recently with the Weber Key (a conical grinder might I remind you) that had massive issues blamed on seasoning? There’s nothing “back foot” about this. I also have a new flat burr grinder, and believe me I’ve been tasting it testing it straight from the box with no complaints. You can even scroll up to Jonathan’s comment where he essentially said that seasoning isn’t necessarily for making better cups, but more so in shot to shot consistency on espresso more so than filter. In the end, you’re welcome to have your opinion, I have mine. But don’t come in here with bad faith arguments trying to invalidate my opinions with your own anecdotes.
@@Sprometheus Reading my own comment for the 2nd time after a good night's sleep, I agree that it might be a bit over the fence and I'm sorry for that. However, having a range of grinders with very different burr sets I can tell that seasoning was a really different experience for all of them. While the Niche didn't require any effort to get good taste and good consistency, the Ode equipped with the SSP Brew burrs was straight up unusable in all areas. The P100 with 98mm High Uniformity performed well in the cup, but I couldn't manage to get 2 consistent shots in succession. To get a counter-argument for the Niche, my Kinu didn't have any problems with consistency, but the taste improved a lot for filter brews after quite some usage. As for community, I want to specifically refer to the Decent community, where people are obsessed with data and there are crazy people who ran 80kg of coffee through the Bentwood to get a measurable improvement in extraction. And as for the Weber Key Grinder, I share your condolences for that whole project and while I agree with your point, the rest of the issues there just take the show :) Anyways to sum it all up from my side: Sorry for coming over as rude with my first comment, that wasn't my intention. I've been in the subscription list for a while now and it'll stay that way and did share opinions previously and will do so when I have one.
@@Sprometheuswow just wow. Such a bully. The sad thing is that your are totally wrong spro and you are aggressive towards the people trying to help bring light. SMDH
I think the niche is a bit different, since it’s already producing much more fines compared to other grinders. Maybe seasoning is more useful with lower fine grinders(Niche has good amount of fines as a new grinder). This is what I have experience with my mc4 and lagom p64 SSP, with new burrs shots have a lot of channels and bad looking extractions. Seasoning > more fines > better extraction
i was expecting more focus on actuall angles of the burrs ;). also reminder these are uncoated burrs so they do will get a bit less scharp. the TI coated burrs will not wear out much to nothing as the coating is many many times harder than a coffee bean is. I still think this is something people make themself believe. Same as they claim there coffee tastes the same the whole year around (not possible due to age of beans, origin of beans, way of roasting, air temperature, moisture, water inconsistancies etc etc. but if you do it long enough your mind starts believing its the same
You are using 2 different burrs. They might just be fundamentally different right out of the box. To discount your results you need to test a few sets of brand new burrs and compare those before seasoning them and retesting.
Yeah, let me just spend literally a thousand dollars of a few sets of these, about $250 on the coffee needed to “season” them, and hours of my time, which is also valuable. So roughly $2-3k. Or you can take the results with a grain of salt, or ignore them completely.
How dare you apply logical thinking and a thorough comparison on this widely debated topic. On a serious note great video and glad to know results are minimal
Great video, thanks for your work! Couldn’t agree more. “Seasoning” seems both wasteful and time wasted on useless detail that doesn’t actually lead to a better tasting cup of coffee. Unnecessary wank that takes the focus away from what truly matters.
Additionally, no one drinks particle distribution curves. They drink cups of coffee. The emphasis should be on outcomes people care about, not on obtaining overly precise measurements on some intermediate variable.
Thanks, glad to hear you enjoyed it! And yes, I do plan on doing a section on my Lagom P64 review about this as well to give a flat burr perspective. Based on the the things I’ve heard conicals are “harder to season”, whatever that actually means.
@@Sprometheus Larger surface area, so I'd think maybe it takes more time / coffee to season conicals. I hate wasting coffee so hopefully seasoning is really a myth but my experience with Niche Zeros from a while back seemed to indicate they did require seasoning, but I suspect they changed something now. Maybe Try with a 1zpresso K model, if you have an older / used hand grinder, do the same experiment with a new one to see if there's any differences. My bud was comparing the Commandante with a new K-plus and i was sad to hear he preferred the commandante but later, he was like the K-plus is even better, just needed seasoning!
Interesting results, I've had two different Niche Zeros a few years back and I thought they DID benefit from a seasoning process, after a month or two of use, both them seemed to improve in taste for espresso and I think aeropress as well. I thought it was giving more sour, under extracted tasting coffee at first, and I theorized that THIS is why a lot of people hate conicals, they try a new grinder and don't give it enough of a chance to get seasoned before judging it. My 1zPresso K-Plus conical burr hand grinder also had a very similar sour/under extracted profile to the Niche I remember. I resold the Niche's, but kept the K-plus, now that grinder produces great coffee, tasty and compares nicely with flat burr grinders I usually use. More recently I got another Niche Zero and was surprised it tasted good right away, without seasoning, so I'm wondering if Niche or Mazzer are NOW pre-seasoning the Burrs. They should be advertising this as a feature if this is the case! Unless they're re-selling used burrs and just don't want us to know about it :D
i never really liked the Niche for filter or more than really tight espresso shots. It's funny how essentially a defect (unseasoned burr distribution) can make it taste better with your setup. i think a single pour filter recipe is favored because of the little agitation being done. more fines in the cup could easily extract a slightly better flavor easier with a low agitation recipe (assuming the old burrs were very well cleaned too). your opinion does have a lot of weight here. i really wish you'd do these tests on two different styles of burrs and use different pour over and espresso recipes. i know that's WAY more information than anyone would like to present, but making big statements like these should require the work...or you'll have your followers thinking what's actually a defect be good for every grinder and situation. it's definitely not in my experience. the Niche is such a different grinder that produces wildly different results than many other grinders i've used and really enjoy brewing with.
I think people get a bit too absorbed with this sort of thing... I always use a new grinder/burrs knowing things will be a bit different for the first bit of use and just dial things in and deal with less than perfection. Then things will smooth out and be consistent for quite awhile. Way down the road a bit of grind quality/consistency will be lost as the cutting edges wear a bit. It's not that difficult to figure out and those pissing away pounds of coffee just to get new burrs where they think performance is better are just wasting coffee and time, plain and simple.
@@Sprometheus I fear it's some kind of marketing hack. The product you just bought doesn't satisfy you? you just need to exploit it until you can no longer get a refund ;) But that's just my conspiratorial feeling
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I seasoned my burrs and my coffee tasted terrible, it tasted of salt and pepper, but without adding any seasoning my coffee tasted of coffee.
I see what you did there.
This comment deserves more likes...
My personal recommendation would be to use more sweet seasonings, those used in baking like cinnamon or clove. Savory seasoning isn’t going to do your coffees many favors unless you’ve got a tomato forward Kenyan or woody Sumatra.
you made a mistake, should have used olive oil instead
If you want to boost your coffee flavor = MSG! Has anyone tried to add MSG instead of salt? ;-)
I think how seasoning affects brewing will depend on several factors, one of which may be RPM. The amount of seasoning needed will depend on a lot of factors too - burr size, grind size, coating, rpm and probably others. The Niche runs at 330 rpm and the Key runs at ~60-130 rpm, and I suspect the latter may be more affected by seasoning because of the lower RPM, but that's just a hypothesis. We surely need some laser PSD data about the effects of burr seasoning, but I definitely don't think it's a myth - Eric Mann has already shared laser PSDs of his ULTRA grinder with the SSP HU burrs, and after a couple dozen pounds of coffee, the quantity of fines changed a lot (less fines for the same median particle size in the case of seasoned burrs), which seems to go along your faster brewing pour over. I think this is caused mostly by the rough surface finish polishing off as the burrs season, which reduces friction and disfavors crushing while the burrs season more (crushing creates more fines than cutting does). Teeth sharpness may also play a small role but I suspect polishing is a lot more important. As for the differences in extraction yield, those are tricky because you would probably need to dial in both brews such that they run with a similar brew time - brew time is one of the most important factors determining EY for pour over. Your shots running much faster on the brand new burrs seems surprising, but I would not be super confident that the zero point stayed the same every time on the Niche - this is the only aspect that annoys me about the Niche (i.e., keeping the same zero point and avoiding slight shifts in grind size at a similar notch over time). It is also possible that your seasoned burrs have been used to the point where the teeth are becoming slightly duller, which will increase the production of fines again, reducing EY with a similar shot time. When comparing taste it's also extremely important to clean your seasoned burrs thoroughly before comparing, it's really surprising how much of an impact this can have on taste, and it could explain alone why the brand new burrs tasted better. I don't think brand new burrs necessarily taste bad, it's just that the gradual shift in fines fraction and particle size over the first few dozen pounds can make repeatability kind of a nightmare until the burrs are seasoned.
Also, when I refer to "fines" above, I'm referring to particles in the range 10-80 microns - measuring these with sifting is extremely hard, and a real mess. We really need laser diffraction data, I think we'll have a lot more of these in the near future. It's also extremely hard to compare the fraction of fines because it changes vastly when you shift the grind size, so you have to compare them at a very similar median particle size in order to draw useful conclusions, it's hard to tell if you did here based on just 3 different grind sizes. It's just extremely hard to measure this reliably.
Yeah I’m sure there is a lot more to this, and while testing and preparing this video I of course looked at your blog post.
Now I’m sure there’s science to the process of seasoning, and some changes in the grind consistency etc are expected to happen. But I feel like these effects aren’t necessarily something the average, or even most enthusiast coffee drinkers need to concern themselves with.
I think the myth here is the overall misconception that new burrs won’t produce good coffee, and I think that is the conversation worth having as most people don’t have access to kilos/pounds of coffee to go through the process. On top of there being no easily tangible way of knowing if/when burrs are seasoned.
It is an interesting topic, I appreciate your thoughts on this for sure and glad you chimed in.
@@Sprometheus I agree new burrs can definitely produce great coffee. My first pour over out of the EG1 and Ultra burrs was really magical (I happened to land on dial in by chance). With pour over it won't be that much of an issue imo, but the quality will slowly improve. With espresso I think it's way more important just for repeatability, it's not that the coffee will taste better, but rather that dialling in will be less of a nightmare.
If you have the patience, I think this could be great: dial in both burrs to the same shot time, then pull 5-6 shots and see how much your timings, flowrates etc vary with each burr. I know it's a lot but in my experience you need that many shots at least to really capture random gushers and other flukes.
Jonathan you doing espresso these days?
I recall reading on a post a while back that you had pulled only a single shot lol.
Try this with flat burrs. I had to run 20 lbs of coffee through my 64mm SSP Cast burrs before they tasted good. Seasoning absolutely matters when it comes to flat burrs, at least.
I’m not so sure. I can’t help but feel like this is all in our heads, something we’ve believed for so long the expectations are there and hard to see past,
I do have a new flat burr grinder and I’ve been making drinks on it, testing extraction, etc and been very happy with what it produces. Along with that, there’s a video from Whole Latte Love where they spoke with the head of Eureka I believe, and he said conicals are harder to season than flats. Which, I mean, not sure what that means or if there’s anything but anecdotal evidence to support it.
Agreed, although it's relatively well documented that large diameter cast burrs need 20-50kg seasoning. At around 30-35lbs seasoning, the resulting coffee of my CVs was greatly enhanced. I'm probably around 40lbs now and am doing 5lb maintenance seasonings every month until I surpass 100lbs.
@@Sprometheus I would talk to Lance Hedrick about this. He put out an extensive documentation on his findings throughout the 30 lbs seasoning process on the cast burrs.
@@HappyAccidentVideos - I’d love to take a look at this!! Where can I find this info regarding the Cast Burr Seasoning with Lance??
@@Sprometheus I recently got a Timemore Sculptor 078. The first four or five brews I made with the grinder were the best coffee I've had and a long time, and I just chose the grind setting based on my previous grinder being best at about 2/3 of the way from coarse to fine, except I got it backwards on the new grinder and it was 2/3 of the way from fine to course, but it came out excellently. After about five brews, however, I was not able to reproduce what I got at first. I varied the grind coarseness, slightly altered the amount of coffee, and set the motor to 1400 RPM from the middle setting of 1100 RPM that it was initially set at. Eventually I got something that was pretty good, although not like at first. Then I remembered I'd been saving about 7 pounds of coffee that I didn't use for seasoning the new grinder and I thought maybe I should do that. So I put about 5 pounds of coffee through it, not running it more than say 30 seconds at a time, on the coarsest setting or close to that, and afterward the coffee was terrible, even after trying to adjust things as before. I took the burrs out and cleaned everything--it wasn't very dirty--but that didn't help. In my opinion seasoning burrs is a fiction and probably wears out your burrs more quickly if you do it above and beyond your normal usage. I guess some might say I need to put another 80 pounds through it or something like that, but I have my doubts, because right out of the box it made great coffee for a while. What does that mean? That the dulling the burrs slightly makes worse coffee? And the burrs on this grinder are sort of hybrid ghost burrs, so I'm not sure if they require the same seasoning.
Update: Although I had tried adjusting the coarseness the grind a little bit up-and-down after seasoning, I figured since seasoning supposedly makes the ground particles larger, I should make a bigger adjustment toward finer particles, so instead of 12 plus or minus 1/2, I set it to 10, and that worked much much better. I have usually found in general when there is a problem with the coffee not coming out right, that the grind needs to be set finer rather than coarser.
I love how coffee can still be so perplexing, here we are still legitimately dealing with “old wife’s’ tales”, that are substantially influencing how products are being manufactured in 2022. Frustratingly exciting. Thanks for taking the time to look at this, I’m sure at some point someone will dedicate & document months or years of research into this in a peer reviewed journal but these first steps into answering these questions are just as important. ✌🏻❤️☕️
Thanks Fenton, and yeah I hope someone does do something like that. Jonathan Gagne did something like this in a more scientific way, and found results that lean towards the need for seasoning. But that seems based on things that make minimal changes in the cup, which to me makes it feel less important to those who’re looking to just make good coffee and not worry about grind particle size.
@@Sprometheus I have just read his post on this from 2019, very thoroughly researched. Thanks for the recommendation. 🥳
I’d be interested to see the same set of tests run on a flat burr grinder. With its wider particle distribution spread a conical burr grinder is probably more likely to hide any burr issues. One thing that I’ve heard can be a problem with new burrs, especially flat burrs, is static. So some of the main improvements seen once burrs are seasoned could simply be workflow and user experience.
Appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I can’t imagine having the patience for this. In my experience, I haven’t noticed anything with seasoning affecting my flavor, I think that’s kind of out there. But I did notice, when I first got my Comandante, that grind settings didn’t seem to be the same when I switched back to them. I was also trying to learn the grinder so it could have easily been user error, but I seem to remember switching between two grind settings and getting vastly different results when I returned back to one.
Now I’m wondering about flat burrs.
Great video and it definitely made me wonder if seasoning is actually worth it
Very interesting. Watching the video I started thinking that maybe the phenomenon is based on people learning the grinder over time rather than the burrs “improving”.
I would that that could be part of it. The other part is there are 3 phases of life for a set of burrs, new, worn, and dull. And we see the worn stage as the ideal because it’s where most of the burrs lifespan is spent.
Thanks for this! I didn’t really season my burrs when my new grinder arrived. I think things will take of itself over time. Also I didn’t like the thought of dark, oily and musty smelling coffee filling the dead space in the grinder and becoming rancid. I just started grinding with the regular coffees I drink and clean my grinder regularly to sustain clean taste. As Spro argues, I also think seasoning a grinder with supermarket coffee as often is recommended is a waste of coffee and all the resources and labour that went into producing it.
Thanks for making another interesting video to help shed some light on another controversial coffee topic. Yup, like you, I started using my Niche Zero right out of the box. I don’t really see any point in seasoning the burrs as some ppl insisted that I should. The espresso tasted great and certainly solved the channeling problem I started having when I upgraded to Flair 58x when I used my old OXO conical burr grinder. Keep up your great work! ☕️
Thank you, I appreciate the effort you went through for this. I definitely won't waste my coffee to season.
Thank you for this - I recently bought a new grinder and was really struggling to find advice on this topic that had any empirical basis. The lore around seasoning burrs is reminiscent of seasoning cast iron pans in that there are people who hold very strong opinions on the subject simply because knowledge of it implies that you're a subculture insider, regardless of whether it actually produces better results.
I felt the same way. I also thing it’s the same with cars too. Back when machining wasn’t as accurate it made sense to take it easy and let the engine wear a bit and remove any metal flake, but now stuff is super accurate and it just seems like a lore that sticks around,
@@Sprometheus I recently got a new car and Mazda recommended in the manual a break-in period for 600 miles. They recommend going easy on the engine during that time, no full throttle high RPM for extended periods of time and also to not hard stop the engine and not to race the engine.
But overall tolerances are good on modern engines and some of them have additional steps at the factory. I listen to the what the engineers of the engines say.
Got a Niche in February and the only coffee wasted was dialing it in surprisingly fine for espresso. I can say that after a couple months near daily use, I am trending toward a bit coarser grind to achieve the same shot. This seems to agree with your experience FWIW. The coffee is still good. That's what's important to me.
Thanks for the video. 20 y/o Macap M7 is being replaced by a NicheZero. Was not looking forward to seasoning the new grinder burr. Finer grind until to yield desired extraction beats wasting time and beans.
Sprometheus, your videos are getting so much better and your explanations for decisions and testing is as well.
Keep it up! I appreciate your content.
Thanks Trevor, I appreciate you watching and the kind words.
This was a interesting video for sure! To be honest I only ever started hearing about burr seasoning when I started looking for a flat burr grinder and especially when people starting talking about ssp burrs etc. Will be very interesting to see the comparison when it comes to flat burrs.
This was really interesting! I have a Niche on order and based on various reviews, I was anticipating needing a fairly lengthy break in before it started producing peak quality brews especially for filter. These results surprised me, but also makes me feel a lot less worried about the seasoning process 😀 Thanks for doing this - I can only imagine the amount of patience required to keep switching burr sets around, cleaning in between, and measuring all of that data.
I surely hope seasoning will improve my Niche, because it’s Aeropress/pour over grind is subpar atm
This is interesting and challenges what I thought I knew! I didn't waste coffee to season my niche burrs, as it seemed too wasteful and I was happy enough with the results from the start. I did feel that my pourovers got better after a few months of use (better clarity) but after watching this I'm wondering if it was burr seasoning, as I had assumed. Maybe I simply got better at making pourover!
Maybe you got used to it as well? I found the Niche making way too many fine particles for pour over and French press. I only kept it for three weeks before selling it though. My Comandante was blowing it out of the water, and hand grinding wasn’t much slower. However, I wasn’t making espresso at the time, and now I’m looking to get another Niche!
@@VincentGalbo yeah, it does make more fines than I'd like for pourover but on reflection I think I did adapt my recipe towards a 1:15 instead of 1:17 to reduce the bitterness I got from the fines. Lance Hendrick also has a technique for trapping more fines on the wall of the paper filter, which helps to a degree. I do see myself getting a flat burr grinder for filter at some point though. The Niche is great for that classic conical style espresso though and it's so easy to use so I'm definitely keeping mine.
@@chrisdturner the Ode is a really great flat burr grinder. Very, very happy with that. Commandante is the only other grinder I’ve found that can compete with the Ode in flavor it produces.
Also, I did end up ordering a Niche. Very excited to use that to make some espresso.
Thanks for exploring this question! I've wondered how much a difference seasoning actually makes and have been skeptical that its worth it, especially for home use where a tasty cup is a tasty cup. But one question that I don't think was addressed is if the seasoning process can improve consistency from shot to shot, day to day, week to week. Does a new set of burrs have a break-in period where they are changing quickly/significantly, and once they've reached "seasoned" status do they have a long period of (relatively) consistent results until they've reach end of life? I am personally skeptical that it would make a noticeable difference since there are so many variables that affect shot consistency (i.e. bean age, temp/humidity, puck prep, etc..), but I think this could be a question worth asking and exploring, especially for a cafe setting where having a consistent product is important.
Also curious how this may or may not translate to flat burrs, especially those with a unimodal type design in mind.
Yeah on the long term it’s harder to test and it’s something I would like to have data on. But if I was a bettin’ man I’d wager that the answer is yes there is a point that burrs reach at some point in their lifespan where they function the most consistently and for the longest period of time. That sweet spot between new and worn.
I did recently get a flat set of unimodal burrs so expect to see something more on this topic in the future.
I love this video. We should most definitely relook at things we just do because “we’ve done them before”.
Absolutely! Taking requests on other things we do in coffee making and if they actually matter, so if there’s other things you’d like to see tested im all ears.
@@Sprometheus absolutely! First thing that comes to mind. Not sure how you would start testing it but “purging” a grinder in between different coffees when doing a cupping. It kinda seems a bit wasteful in my opinion.
I think 3rd wave has been good about that. So many myths have already been dispelled especially in espresso and pour over technique compared to the 90's say. Seasoning is just the latest one to go and kinda weird no one before Spro questioned it. Seems like it was an easy matter of dispelling it, if ya got a refractometer which all the coffee content makers have.
Thank you for this video! I am new to much of this upper end coffee world and have already improved my game tons with your and others videos. Having a pricy (for me) new Sculpter 78s coming to me soon (Did the Kickstarter) I had wondered/worried about this 'need' to season the new burrs. It not just waistfull it is costly too. I am totaly relaxed now after seeing this and no longer feel I will be missing anything by just not seasoning in the new grinder. I am a geek-tech type and feel the thought and points hit on by you will in must likelihood translate to flate burrs too, at least enough so that I have no worries. Thanks again! I was looking for this content, and you had it well covered!
Two months ago, I bought a 3-year-old Ceado E5P with 64mm stock burrs off eBay. The previous owner claimed to have run about 100lbs of coffee through the grinder over the course of 2 years. I've run the grinder enough to be familiar with its flavor and then on a whim I bought a brand-new set of Ceado stock burrs. I've run around 20 shots through it since the swap and I could detect no flavor difference between the old and new burrs so I put the old ones back. Then this video came out. Oh well, I now have a spare set of burrs if I ever come across some rocks.
Which happened last week to my new Ceado E37S (83mm burrs) and it chipped a tooth. Fortunately, it was covered by warranty. I never did find the rock debris, fortunately I found the tiny burr chip in the bottom of the portafilter. After pulling the shot.
Sprometheus, I love you. I see your videos since the very beginning. You are amazing, keep going please!
Thank you my friend, I appreciate you.
Before I watched this, I purchased a DF64V with SSP cast lab sweet burrs. Upon arriving, I was very disappointed in how bad and yes, I mean bad the coffee tasted in my pour over and yes, I am like many of you a coffee geek and weigh beans, water and use third wave water, so my experiments are precise. After running probably 2-3lbs through the grinder, magic happened, the coffee started to go from muddy and bitter to smooth and high clarity with many amazing flavors you would expect. After also doing sift tests with my kruve and making sure brew times matched, I cant exactly tell you why, but I can say that my tastbuds know that seasoning, at least in my specific grinder and burr set makes a huge difference
I've put ~30 lb of coffee through my two year old Lido ET. I always assumed that the grind size changed during seasoning - but I've also tweaked my pourovers considerably since starting with it, so maybe the seasoning helps the user more than the grinder. OE does claim in the manual that it produces a faster grind once the burrs are seasoned, I suppose that could be a problem related to low RPM and hand grinding, due to higher arm torque before the burrs smoothen out. They actually don't even use the word seasoning but call it a "grind in." Again, maybe this is a user thing since people tend to get stronger if they're hand grinding on the daily.
I wonder if "seasoning" is more about getting used to a new grinder and how that machine works than the actual burrs themselves. I noticed going from a cheap grinder to a better Brevel grinder to a 1zpresso, each grinder required a bit of a learning curve to get the best out of it
Very good thought
I got my Niche two months ago.Honestly those first days coffee was just horrible. It produced incredible amount of fines. My v60 was clogged by fines even though I ground at 50+ setting. Espresso was not good either. In comparison to the little Wilfa grinder I owned previously it was a major step back. However, after some time and couple of kilos of coffee ground the amount of fines produced by the Niche was at acceptable level and I could dial both espresso and pour over to more fine settings. It is really ok now, though I am hoping to be even better. This video shows that seasoning is a myth and I now really don't understand what is (or was) going on with my Niche.
Not so much my opinion but more based on my work over the last decade on burrs. I would have to say with out any doubt, any style of burr flat or conical benefits drastically from seasoning, seasoned with coffee in the grinder or any pre-seasoning method.
Throw coatings in to the mix and the game changes again, it’s a frustrating thing, or was a decade ago when customers would complain after their burrs had just been changed on a service.
Awesome video. I’d love to see more particle size distribution layers though. Maybe 5 or 6 different micron settings… but this is good to know.
So I'm pretty new to home brewing and recently upgraded to an urbanic 070s, with the stock burrs coming unseasoned. I didn't take time to season them and the grinder was definitely still usable but I've definitely seen and improvement in consistency the last month or so, especially in the espresso range of the grinder. In my first 2-3 months of ownership (first 30 pounds of coffee) I often found myself with a coffee I thought I had dialed in, suddenly running twice as fast without changing anything. The past month (beyond 30 pounds) or so I seem to be getting more consistent dose out and shot times.
Machine is a Gaggia glass IC with the 9 bar opv swap
Would like to see the same test on flat burrs
Very interesting topic!
One thing I havn't heard you talking about... What coffee did you use for this test? As we know higher grown coffee is more dense, therefore harder to grind so to speak.
I always just hit'em with a little salt, pepper, and a dash of paprika. Boom perfectly seasoned burrs. The resulting coffee is god awful👍🏻
Paprikash cafe
This video is purely an opinion, not showing much. Too little control of the experiments to draw any solid conclusions. For example, you would need to dial in for exactly same extaction time for tasting burr differences. You used the same grinder, different burrs: how do you guarantee that both burrs had the same alignment, or even that there is no variation between burrs? You would need to observe the same burrs over a break-in period to see the effects. Sieving is not an effective method for the purpose as used here: the particles that are important for the extraction dynamics have a size of
I’m pretty sure I stated this was my opinion, and not going to be across the board. But thanks for essentially restating it in a way to try and discount my findings.
Essentially what you’re saying is burrs change over time, yeah, we all know that. For the better, maybe, or maybe we just feel like it’s better because it’s in a place between new and worn for the majority of their lifespan.
In the end all I aim to do with a video like this, and most of my videos containing tests is start a conversation about a topic that seems like the industry as a whole agrees on without much tangible evidence that actually matters, like differences in taste.
@@Sprometheus I am *not trying* to find a way to discount your findings. I am merely pointing out the gaps in the process of obtaining those “findings” and why they might be misleading to the viewers of this video.
Excellent, well thought out, as usual to the point.
I think the idea of seasoning burrs is due to people using a new type of burr set or grinder and not being used to the changed setup where the actual seasoning is mostly regression to the mean.
Great video as usual. I feel like the argument around taste and seasoning burrs is pretty pointless considering they all eventually get seasoned anyway. I could understand the argument of seasoning effecting grind speed in a cafe situation where a shop needed some good consistency from the start and therefore seasoned the burrs.
Nice video, thank you! What are your thoughts on this topic when transferred to flat burrs? I've been grinding with the same set of 65mm flat burrs in my Mahlkonig K30 Vario for ten years and only starting to approach the territory of changing them (1600-2000lbs of coffee ground). When new, as they were used, I had to move the spacing to a finer grind for several months, but for years now, it's not required any significant changes (for a given coffee) in grind setting. Great-tasting coffee from brand new to now. As the grinding mechanics are different between conical burrs and flat burrs, will you be even looking at new/seasoned flat burrs?
The point is that the grind will change periodically until this has happened, pretty sure some brands don't require it, maybe Mazzer don't want to spend the extra in production to clean up the burrs or maybe they think that allowing them to season gives a longer lasting finish.
i've always found the affects of seasoning ,more evident on flat burrs. i'm not sure one is better or worse than the other, just different.
Funny, I always thought the opposite, I thought conical burrs benefit more from seasoning than flats. My theory is that there's a larger surface area on conicals. But not all grinders 'need' it as much.
I think the big issue we’re dealing with when it comes to seasoning is there really is no clear, scientific and agreed upon information. You can find people arguing both it’s more important on flat, others on conicals, some days conicals need less seasoning and some say more. In my mind the whole point of this video is to empower people to try this for themselves and maybe not spend a lot of time and coffee chasing a ghost.
@@Sprometheus i completely agree, not worth it to season them, but ya might get lucky and your grinder will be better over time, or good from the start.
@@BensCoffeeRants true, i found my flats took longer, but i also have not had many grinders. i think it might also depend on torque, grind size most commonly used, coffees used, speed, etc.
Definitely shows that no matter what the results say, the small differences in the science result in no difference on the palate. Filter coffee is far more forgiving than espresso when it comes to grind size anyway. I can radically alter the grind setting for filter and taste no difference in the results. Espresso is a different matter though, and I think the only thing to mention regarding new burrs vs old burrs is that (what I've found with mine anyway) is that I've had to adjust my grind size down from a 9 to 10 to a 5-6 due to the wearing of my burrs over time to achieve the 2:1 ratio coffee to water in 25-30 seconds.
Well, you did have to adjust the new burrs four notches finer, even if they we’re zeroed. I have also experienced my zero point move after just the first few kilos of beans. So, one of the benefits I’ve heard regarding seasoning is consistency, which I think you have proved here.
Many have argued that it’s difficult to even zero the Niche. But I don’t think this necessarily proved consistency, it could very easily be a lack of fines.
@@Sprometheus Well, it’s consistency in the sense, that the zero point stops drifting after seasoning. Or at least not as fast as it does with new burrs.
This is really interesting and cool to have seen the tests! I wonder if there is a big difference for burr seasoning between flat burrs and conicals. When I got my new c40, it seemed to perform really well out of the gate, but my flat burrs on my fellow ode definitely needed some coffee running through them for some consistency in grind.
Have you tried changing the plastic burr holder for a CNC-ed metal one? I have and I've wondered if the burrs would season more uniformly with the metal ring than they have with the plastic one.
Many thanks my friend.
Of course! Thanks for watching!
Are coatings the deciding factor? Finishing steps in machining could also make the difference between burrs that need seasoning and those that don’t.
The best cup I’ve had so far was from my ode. Brand new burrs. As they seasoned in I’ve started getting a lot more ultra fines that I didn’t have before.
I once worked in a cafe using a new Mazzer ZM, and found that out of the box, the filter burrs produced extremely flat tasting cups. Very little sweetness, low clarity and very high acidity. This continued until roughly 10kg (22lbs) of coffee had been run through the burrs and then they started performing as expected. Perhaps flat burrs have a tendency to require seasoning moreso than conicals but this just my experience that I found interesting, if not a little frustrating.
I have a theory larger burrs or conicals (larger surface area) benefit more from seasoning. I haven't noticed much of a change with smaller flat burrs like 65mm and under but did notice a big difference after a while with 2 niche zeros and 1zpresso k plus (also conical) strangely the 3rd Niche Zero I tried (more recently) seemed like it didn't need seasoning. Unseasoned conicals were usually similar to your description it was giving acidic unbalanced coffee which seemed under extracted.
Makes sense, metal is pretty freaking hard and seasoning usually isn't that much coffee
For sure. I mean overtime yeah they will wear, like how water wears stone, but the whole seasoning program just feels odd to me.
I guess the idea behind seasoning is not to get a better grind quality, but a more repeatable one.
The sharp and thin cutting edges of a new burr set will wear relatively fast at the beginning, sothat after a quite small amount of ground coffee the particle size for a same grinder setting will begin to vary. After this phase of a fast wearing process, the burrs will start to wear much more constantly. Just my theory... maybe you can notice with the new burrs, that quite a lot re-adjusting is needed.
Always felt "seasoning" burrs was kind of a weird idea. Sure, there may be differences in particles, but I'm not sure it would be a big enough difference to really matter. This video proves that, but only for one grinder and one burr, so someone with a completely different grinder and burr set might have more of a difference. Still, any testing on this matter is good to have. We still have much to learn about even the "simple" act of grinding coffee.
I was too busy having fun with my Niche when it finally arrived that I didn't care about seasoning the burrs. "GIVE ME THE COFFEE!" was my only thought. Thanks for doing this research, so we don't have to !
I feel you! And when I got the niche I dove right in too, and had no issues that I can recall with cup quality.
With the brand new burr set of Italmil burrs for my DF64 it was not possible to do a V60 without stalling. After roughly 2kg this changed significantly. So at least in my experience and for this specific burr set, seasoning is a thing.
Ya, this video is hilariously narrow minded. Conicals are VERY different than flat burrs and flat machined burrs definitely benefit from minor seasoning where cast burrs require A LOT seasoning
@@wkarnofel634 In my experience I thought conicals actually benefit from more seasoning (makes more of a dramatic difference to me! vs flat burrs which are usually pretty good out of the box), but I have heard people have issues with flat burrs (which may be more apparent when doing pour overs) before seasoning.
You had your niche zero for 2 years now, how is it ? Did anything changed since last year ?
Very nice video, I enjoyed watching it and secretly smiling cause I too believe that the only seasoning the new burrs need is to eliminate industrial defects, and for that you need less than 1 kilo of coffee
P S. Imagine a cafè that needs days and days to season the new burrs and offer bad coffee at the consumers, another proof is that
When Coffee Kratos says it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter.
This excellent presentation answers a question I have been wondering about for quite some time. I really enjoy all of your videos and have learned so much from them. I use the Melodrip every day for pour overs thanks to your recommendation. Your really have enhanced my knowledge of how to brew great coffee. A million thanks.
Thank you my friend for the kind words and for watching! Happy brewing and have a great weekend!
No it depends on the grinder and burrset. This is really only useful for niche owners
It's interesting that the seasoned burrs produced 3x the fines of the new burrs! This is the opposite of what people say about seasoning! I'm confused! Maybe it's just the CONSISTENCY of the amount of fines that changes rapidly during initial use?
Just a thought, maybe seasoning a new grinder is more than just the burrs losing sharpness.I can imagine the burrs get aligned a little better by grinding kilograms of coffee through them, and that might have an impact too. I would be interesting to compare a 2 year old niche to a new one.
There's obviously also the psychological effect of getting used to gear, so you might appreciate it more after a while and get better tasting results because of your technique, and not the burrs per se?
Quite possible both of these are factors. That’s the fun thing about coffee, the experimentation never ends.
How does seasoning burrs affect the sonic qualities of the coffee? Oh wait, I'm confusing that with the supposed benefits breaking in audio equipment--speakers, amplifiers etc.
👊👍Cool stuff! I just let my burrs (flat) settle in naturally, no regrets, would recommend
Based on what you have presented here, it seems to me that seasoning burrs is more of a coffee shop problem than a home barista concern.
The volume going through a typical coffee shop means that brand new burrs are a consistency issue. Most cafes want to dial in their grind and rely on it throughout the day. If burrs are brand new and can produce a different grind for bean pound 1 vs bean pound 10 that's a quality issue for the cafe.
As far as I am concerned, I always thought that seasoning should help with repeatability from shot to shot, not necessarily in terms of taste.
And that always seemes quite reasonable to me: with the first kg, you kind of "grind away" the ultrasharp and maybe inconsistent edges where the material thickness goes near zero, leaving the burr with a more uniform "not-so-sharpness", that lasts very long in this state.
Think of it like leathering your razor after sharpening, just in another scale
Yup, I go with that theory, as an engineer, not a coffee expert, the first stage of "wear" is basically knocking down high spots. this happens quite quickly on very sharp edges, after which they settle down and wear at a much slower rate.
It may be worth trying this experiment with a flat burred grinder, and see if there's a difference in the results?
EXCELLENT VIDEO!
THANK YOU!
Interesting. I love it when people are willing to challenge popular beliefs... particularly when they back it up with some semblance of evidence.
This is just like audio. I came from the headphone part of the audiophile world, and this kind of thing happens there too. People believing that old amplifiers were better than new amplifiers because somehow their transistors have become more stable due to breaking in, some people turn on their whole system for hundreds of hours of white noise just to break in the transistors. So this is similar concept.
My old burrs needed replacing as clumpy & extraction weights were all over the place for 25 secs
New burrs nice fluffy grind no clumps but extraction weights still all over the place
Any ideas ?
Mazzer mini , using scales , weighing beans in & after grind too
😮 You again hit the spot with today’s video! Just got my new red speed 64mm SSP HU burrs today and am still speculating if seasoning these makes even any sense. Thanks for putting my mind to rest!
After pushing 5lbs of coffee through 64mm SSP HU so far, i haven't noticed any difference
Thanks for letting me know! I’ve run around 800g through when I began to wonder if it’s really that necessary.
Did you RDT the beans? And did you notice a difference in static?
I don’t really RDT on the Niche very often, usually only when grinder for coarser applications.
So you can just buy new burrs for the niche? Where did you get them? I like to have reserve parts.
I would be interested to see at what point the unseasoned burrs even out with the seasoned and if the seasoning process is just getting the burrs to a point where they don't drift over time as they are broken in which would be annoying in a cafe setting
The only difference I found with new burrs is that you need to change grind size more often and much more than with a seasoned one
I haven’t noticed that at the moment, I’m using a new set of flat burrs now. But I think it would be hard to notice for me because I’m very regularly switching coffees.
I respect the effort and time put into this video. I'm glad you've dispelled the old wives tale of burrs needing seasoning.
Really great timing as I'd been thinking about this topic recently as I have a Niche coming in June. I've been in high end audio long enough to know when to recognise snake oil nonsense but this seemed like it might actually have some merit at a mechanical level. Glad to know I won't have to bother.
With a new one coming it may be worth running some tests of your own over the next year to see if you notice a difference. But like I said in the video, I wouldn’t grind and toss coffee just for the purpose of “seasoning”.
Fully agree. Waste of coffee. Really hard to taste the difference unless you are searching, noting and make very specific side-by-side comparisons...
Grounds to the left of me fines to the right here I am stuck in the grinder with you.
When I bought Pharos initial brew were under extracted about 15-16%. I was disappointed but I thought maybe they need seasoning. And after some time eextractios went back to proper range. Maybe riginalmazzer burr are preseasonEd?
I dunno man, every grinder I've ever gotten new, the burrs have seasoned in. With the Niche specifically, I had to grind about 10 settings coarser at first for similar results as what I get now with seasoned burrs, and from what I hear that's pretty common across owners of that grinder. Interestingly, I have not had that experience on other grinders, where the seasoning in just seems to effect the strength of the brew... My first few brews with SSP MP in my DF64 were hollow AF despite extra long brew times. I think the changes during seasoning are likely both on burr edges and on parts in the grinder itself as they all seem to be impacted a little differently in my limited experience (only having purchased 3 grinders which all have seasoned in different ways).
I don’t think you can really do a seasoned vs unseasoned test when you’re using burrs that are 2/3rds through their life cycle. You need to buy two fresh sets, season one just enough, and then test. :)
I think that just goes to show the issue with seasoning, what is just enough? There’s no consensus on that.
@@Sprometheus exactly the argument I thought could be given. I guess this is actually not a bad test. It’s still much the same/within error at that age.
Maybe such a thing as too well seasoned burrs exists? Maybe the optimum lifespan is shorter than the manufacturer estimates? More data wouldn't hurt.
Also, how about flat burrs? Are we assuming they just behave identically to conical ones over time?
I’m using a Ceado (flat burrs). When it was brand new it was very inconsistent. I couldn’t make 2 identical shots back to back. After seasoning it, it became something else. I thought I had a bad grinder at first, but seasoning fixed everything for me.
I don't think it was the burrs needing seasoning. I too have a ceado e37sd. I think it's the nooks, crannies, and crevices on the burrs and in the grind chamber that need to get filled with ground coffee. In fact, I experienced this a week ago when I took apart my grinder and thoroughly cleaned it. After cleaning, I needed about 3 to 5 shots to get consistency.
@@CorrupteddSanity but it didn’t take just 5 shots to be consistent when it was new. It took about 7 kilos of grinding till it started producing decent consistent shots.
@@7amadexplains477 that hasn't been my experience with three grinders. 2 flat burrs and 1 conical. Doesn't mean I disbelieve you. Just saying your experience is different to mine with three grinders.
@@CorrupteddSanity Yea I understand. Btw some companies would deliver you a pre-seasoned burr. I saw an interview with Ceado’s CEO saying he doesn’t agree with this idea, but that’s him.
I never understood the exact logic on how seasoning affects consistency, I just know it has to do with something, otherwise no one would’ve talked about it :p
@@7amadexplains477 theoretically - the burrs are slightly starting to dull. So some beans are exposed to ultra sharp blades while others are exposed to slightly dulled. Therefore there will be inconsistency. On top of that, the burrs themselves are developing a coating - a patina. So some beans will be exposed to uncoated parts of the burr and grind a bit more. While the beans exposed to the coated sections of the burrs will eject out faster.
I understand and have experienced the coating aspect.
The question that keeps creeping into my thought chamber is this: Looking at new burrs and old burrs - there is an obvious difference in wear. The question I am pondering is this: Are we all consuming micro-fine particles of case hardened steel over the course of time? if so what is this doing to our health, and more important how does it affect the taste of coffee?
Do a video on that one Spro.
In theory, the biggest problem with consuming small steel particles would be if they're too sharp and you cut yourself. The human body is not made to absorb metals like that, so they will practically just go through you (just like you would with plastic).
Considering taste there are two different factors to consider:
1) What metals are the burrs made kft. Consider how you cannot "taste" your cutlery, so it should be similar, unless I am missing some exotic metals which can be tasted (you may argue iron, but even that you don't actually taste) there shouldn't be a material you could taste.
2) The dose/concentratuon of the metal in each cup. Even if you could taste the metal, it's likely similar to putting a single grain of salt into a bowl of soup, even though you can technically taste the salt, your taste buds are not sensitive enough for the small concentration.
But that's just my two cents
@@Sariusify that makes me feel better and I need more iron in my blood anyway. Going to pull another shot of espresso now.
Sad thing for me about this video is that the community weren't really mystical about seasoning conical burrs at all. Everyone was using their Niche Zero to full potential from the get go without binning through huge amounts of coffee. The magic is mostly about flat burr grinders, where it makes a HUGE difference for either usability/consistency and taste too. I'm not really sure why you want to prove something from the backfoot. Also there is a some more to seasoning than the areas you brought up, that add up to user experience (ex.: the range between choking a brew and water running through).
Well I think the sad thing about this comment is you think you speak for the entire “community”, because I think it’s clear from many of the comments on here that you don’t.
Do you not think I looked this up? Read blog posts, combed forums, gathered opinions, and even had an experience recently with the Weber Key (a conical grinder might I remind you) that had massive issues blamed on seasoning?
There’s nothing “back foot” about this. I also have a new flat burr grinder, and believe me I’ve been tasting it testing it straight from the box with no complaints. You can even scroll up to Jonathan’s comment where he essentially said that seasoning isn’t necessarily for making better cups, but more so in shot to shot consistency on espresso more so than filter.
In the end, you’re welcome to have your opinion, I have mine. But don’t come in here with bad faith arguments trying to invalidate my opinions with your own anecdotes.
@@Sprometheus Reading my own comment for the 2nd time after a good night's sleep, I agree that it might be a bit over the fence and I'm sorry for that.
However, having a range of grinders with very different burr sets I can tell that seasoning was a really different experience for all of them. While the Niche didn't require any effort to get good taste and good consistency, the Ode equipped with the SSP Brew burrs was straight up unusable in all areas. The P100 with 98mm High Uniformity performed well in the cup, but I couldn't manage to get 2 consistent shots in succession. To get a counter-argument for the Niche, my Kinu didn't have any problems with consistency, but the taste improved a lot for filter brews after quite some usage.
As for community, I want to specifically refer to the Decent community, where people are obsessed with data and there are crazy people who ran 80kg of coffee through the Bentwood to get a measurable improvement in extraction.
And as for the Weber Key Grinder, I share your condolences for that whole project and while I agree with your point, the rest of the issues there just take the show :)
Anyways to sum it all up from my side: Sorry for coming over as rude with my first comment, that wasn't my intention. I've been in the subscription list for a while now and it'll stay that way and did share opinions previously and will do so when I have one.
@@Sprometheuswow just wow. Such a bully. The sad thing is that your are totally wrong spro and you are aggressive towards the people trying to help bring light. SMDH
This misses an important cited reason, no? That without seasoning, grind settings can fluctuate and your dialing in may be inconsistent.
I think the niche is a bit different, since it’s already producing much more fines compared to other grinders. Maybe seasoning is more useful with lower fine grinders(Niche has good amount of fines as a new grinder). This is what I have experience with my mc4 and lagom p64 SSP, with new burrs shots have a lot of channels and bad looking extractions. Seasoning > more fines > better extraction
i was expecting more focus on actuall angles of the burrs ;). also reminder these are uncoated burrs so they do will get a bit less scharp. the TI coated burrs will not wear out much to nothing as the coating is many many times harder than a coffee bean is. I still think this is something people make themself believe. Same as they claim there coffee tastes the same the whole year around (not possible due to age of beans, origin of beans, way of roasting, air temperature, moisture, water inconsistancies etc etc. but if you do it long enough your mind starts believing its the same
You are using 2 different burrs. They might just be fundamentally different right out of the box. To discount your results you need to test a few sets of brand new burrs and compare those before seasoning them and retesting.
Yeah, let me just spend literally a thousand dollars of a few sets of these, about $250 on the coffee needed to “season” them, and hours of my time, which is also valuable. So roughly $2-3k. Or you can take the results with a grain of salt, or ignore them completely.
@Sprometheus why do you always need to be unpleasant to commenters when they call you out on your unscientific tests that mislead your followers?
@@Sprometheus completely ignored
How dare you apply logical thinking and a thorough comparison on this widely debated topic. On a serious note great video and glad to know results are minimal
Haha I know, I know, I think I need to embrace the title of the internet’s unfriendliest barista.
Take the results with a grain of coffee?
Wow 👌🏼 👏🏼 😍
Great video, thanks for your work! Couldn’t agree more. “Seasoning” seems both wasteful and time wasted on useless detail that doesn’t actually lead to a better tasting cup of coffee. Unnecessary wank that takes the focus away from what truly matters.
Additionally, no one drinks particle distribution curves. They drink cups of coffee. The emphasis should be on outcomes people care about, not on obtaining overly precise measurements on some intermediate variable.
This was a great video. I've not seen this specific topic addressed before. Next video, is the result the same with flat burrs as conical?
Thanks, glad to hear you enjoyed it! And yes, I do plan on doing a section on my Lagom P64 review about this as well to give a flat burr perspective. Based on the the things I’ve heard conicals are “harder to season”, whatever that actually means.
@@Sprometheus Larger surface area, so I'd think maybe it takes more time / coffee to season conicals. I hate wasting coffee so hopefully seasoning is really a myth but my experience with Niche Zeros from a while back seemed to indicate they did require seasoning, but I suspect they changed something now.
Maybe Try with a 1zpresso K model, if you have an older / used hand grinder, do the same experiment with a new one to see if there's any differences.
My bud was comparing the Commandante with a new K-plus and i was sad to hear he preferred the commandante but later, he was like the K-plus is even better, just needed seasoning!
Interesting results, I've had two different Niche Zeros a few years back and I thought they DID benefit from a seasoning process, after a month or two of use, both them seemed to improve in taste for espresso and I think aeropress as well. I thought it was giving more sour, under extracted tasting coffee at first, and I theorized that THIS is why a lot of people hate conicals, they try a new grinder and don't give it enough of a chance to get seasoned before judging it. My 1zPresso K-Plus conical burr hand grinder also had a very similar sour/under extracted profile to the Niche I remember. I resold the Niche's, but kept the K-plus, now that grinder produces great coffee, tasty and compares nicely with flat burr grinders I usually use.
More recently I got another Niche Zero and was surprised it tasted good right away, without seasoning, so I'm wondering if Niche or Mazzer are NOW pre-seasoning the Burrs. They should be advertising this as a feature if this is the case! Unless they're re-selling used burrs and just don't want us to know about it :D
I love hearing "you need to grind 250kg to season burrs" like bro that grinder will be dead before I grind that much
I wish if you did the same thing with flat burrs too
Check the pinned comment
@@Sprometheus I dont see a pinned comment
Missed the opportunity to name the title "Fact or Friction"
i never really liked the Niche for filter or more than really tight espresso shots. It's funny how essentially a defect (unseasoned burr distribution) can make it taste better with your setup.
i think a single pour filter recipe is favored because of the little agitation being done. more fines in the cup could easily extract a slightly better flavor easier with a low agitation recipe (assuming the old burrs were very well cleaned too).
your opinion does have a lot of weight here. i really wish you'd do these tests on two different styles of burrs and use different pour over and espresso recipes. i know that's WAY more information than anyone would like to present, but making big statements like these should require the work...or you'll have your followers thinking what's actually a defect be good for every grinder and situation. it's definitely not in my experience.
the Niche is such a different grinder that produces wildly different results than many other grinders i've used and really enjoy brewing with.
I think people get a bit too absorbed with this sort of thing... I always use a new grinder/burrs knowing things will be a bit different for the first bit of use and just dial things in and deal with less than perfection. Then things will smooth out and be consistent for quite awhile. Way down the road a bit of grind quality/consistency will be lost as the cutting edges wear a bit. It's not that difficult to figure out and those pissing away pounds of coffee just to get new burrs where they think performance is better are just wasting coffee and time, plain and simple.
I had a hunch that burr seasoning is the coffee equivalent of audiophile headphone "burn-in"
It sure feels that way to me!
@@Sprometheus I fear it's some kind of marketing hack. The product you just bought doesn't satisfy you? you just need to exploit it until you can no longer get a refund ;) But that's just my conspiratorial feeling
all the better than you made this video and hopefully inspired others to try and share their results!