Grand F&O casino where 93% Indians lose Rs 1.8 trillion but keep returning & the ‘House’ always wins
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- SEBI's latest report reveals 93% of individual traders in India are consistently losing money in the derivatives market, yet they continue trading year after year. Meanwhile, FPIs and proprietary traders, using sophisticated algorithms, reaped significant profits. Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta and Economy Editor TCA Sharad Raghavan discuss findings of the report, the demographic divide, reasons and solutions in episode 1525 of #CutTheClutter
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To read SEBI Report: www.sebi.gov.i...
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To read TCA Sharad Raghavan's Article: theprint.in/ec...
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To read ICICI Report: www.icicidirec...
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To read FIA Article: www.fia.org/fi...
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tum pagal ho, duniya ke kaunse desh me market F&O ke bina chalta hai. Market hi band kardo. Unsubscribed.
without F&O market bilkul hollow hoga aur jaise small case kabhi bhe gir jate hai 20-25% waise hi Nifty ke stocks girenge.
presentation karne se koe video accha nahi ho jata , uske bare me jankari bhe chahiye hoti hai.
Better odds than UPSC or State SC board exams 😂😂
exactly.
Lol 😂😂😂
much better odds than running a resturant. much better odd than a startup.
jab aise padhe likhe log pagal jaisi baat karte hai tab hansi aati hai, duniya ke kaunse desh ka market bina F&O ke chalta hai?? jisne bhe kabhi bhe F&O ko tight kiya hai uski growth FD se bhe slow rahi hai. Kospi hi dekh llo.
No small trader gets rich by trading stocks, F&O or FX or Crypto - only institutional traders make money because of the huge volume of trades. I am an investor for the past 30+ years, and I don't know F&O trading and I don't care to learn. All I do is buy stocks with good fundamentals, once in 3-4 months and then forget about them for 4-5 years. By the end of 5 years the value has grown over 5-8 times for many of the stocks in my portfolio. India's growth streek is expected to continue for the next 15 years. Just invest in good stocks and Mutual funds and patiently wait for 8-10 years minimum.
The losses are due to avarice and get quick rich syndrome😂
Well said. There is extreme lack of patience
A lot of people get sucked into this by learning that so and so made so much money doing this. The person that tells these mushy stories were either lying or got really lucky and will lose for sure next time. Never do this because some one else got rich doing it.
Thanks sir for sharing your opinion here
This comment must be put as a disclaimer whenever any trader opens a trading platform. Fact!
I don't know why this data is surprising; wasn't that always obvious?
well raga didnt make it past class 3.
@@kshitijkamble2894 I was surprised. I thought Indians don't invest in stock markets much. My ignorance.
@@aprofromukbut what did modi do? He had a degree in whole political science 🤣🤣
After COVID when people lost jobs this has increased @@manjulashanmugasundaram706
@@manjulashanmugasundaram706 It's not investing. It's trading.
Economic literacy must be priority
economist r the ppl who loose the most in fno :)
Shekar ji may have lost money in options 😂😂
The most important thing IS CIVIC SENSE which hardly anybody in India seems to have.
Losing money in F & O has nothing to do with economic literacy. It's gamble to begin with
@@aprofromuk Cause economists can only look at past and infer why the thing happened which happened whereas Markets are future looking. Totally opposite things.
Sadly when the Govt. tried to discourage people from going into this gambling den, there was a huge backlash.
This happens when it gets painfully difficult to make actual money from white collared jobs. There is no dignity of labour in India so ofcourse no one would get into a blue collared job unless forced to. At that point young men and women start living in hope. I am an actual risk manager in oil trading and personally I wouldn't touch any of this with a 10 foot pole unless there is a whole corporate machinary playing the game.
This has been happening for a long time throughout history, people always want to make a quick buck. Especially during bull markets, this kind of speculative frenzy is a fairly common outcome. Hell, Issac Newton got stuck in one, these are more common than you think.
@@ssb9054 Ah, it's that shipping company thing isn't it 😆... P.s not just a bull market thing mate, these are not necessarily directional bets... these are high vol bets... It's so hard to make money from jobs right now that people want to buy the utopia on a red and green video game
@@shouryabhattacharya2284 I understand your argument, but salaries can never match the ferocity of, the rate of return in a Bull maket, the job market situation might take it up a notch, but these speculative bubbles are universal.
@@shouryabhattacharya2284Load of BS. There are people in high paying jobs who are actively trading in F & O. This has nothing to do with their jobs. This is pure trading kicks plus call for easy money. Happens in US, UK or any other matured market.
I made 50,000 from just ipo subscription premium.
Why blame people addiction as necessity
tell me a business where 50% make money.. the truth is 90% won't..
Exactly. Well said.
From someone in this space all I can say is just stick to equities and use FNO to hedge at the most. Quants are the smartest people in the world and with the help of AI it’s impossible for retail to beat them. Before you start calling it unfair you don’t blame the matchbox company for burning yourself. Also a BBA or MA in economics won’t help you trade. You’ll need a Masters in CS / stats at the minimum with PhDs in math and theoretical physics being the norm.
True
True
Theoretical physics?? I thought SG had a slip of tongue when he mentioned PhD in physics. Why would they hire theoretical physics PhDs?
Isaac Newton is said to have lost his fortune trading in stocks. He repirtedly said that he can predict movement of heveanly bodies but not madness of people trading in stocks
@@sadanandgote5544 Newton didn't have the computers the brokers have today
The Government and SEBI are happy that their tax coffers keep jingling. They hardly bother about real issues that need to be addressed for the long term growth, fairness and efficiency of capital markets.
Still, people blame SEBI for being too much of big brother in the equity markets when they try to tamper down on speculation.
Futures and options (F&O) are high-leverage financial instruments primarily designed for hedging.
However, in India, many retail investors use F&O for speculative trading rather than hedging. This means they are trying to profit from short-term price movements without necessarily having an underlying portfolio to protect.
It is like buying a Life insurance policy and expecting to win money obliviously similar to insurance policy only 1 percent people get money and 99 percent lose money but it we don't say that people are losing money in Insurance policy.
People need to understand the use of Future and Options.
@@vvikas76 See, this is a very good point... premiums represent immense leverage and the vol of it.
Quick correction: Chart 17 at 30:00 is misinterpreted. You say that the bars represent the % of people who've made losses, which in incorrect - they represent the total number of traders from that state (along with the red line chart representing the average per person loss). So what it tells us is Maharashtra and Gujarat have many more people trading, period, compared to Tamil Nadu, Karnataka or Telangana.
And I wouldn't ascribe any "smartness" to it anyway, but if I were to, the conclusion would be the opposite of what you say because per person losses are much higher in the latter 3 states.
This post must be pinned
@theprintIndia
When everyone becomes a trader and floating tips around, thats when you know there is a big bubble in the market.
Is it? Have you shorted with all your net worth?
first of, what's the other side of the trade. So let's say if 1 crore traders or transactions lost 50,000 crores, which averages to a loss of 50,000 per person (not that big) WHAT IS the other side of the ledger? What were the total gains that are not being reported here? Who the he'll in a free market wants to curb risk taking? Government bureaucrats and anchors who think they are better than everyone else. Prerelease, give me a break and mind your own business (or risk, if you know what that term means).
Agreed but we need better regulations to an extent. In my locality even sweepers are trading in Options lmao. Scary to think what will happen when millions of these low wage workers start losing money
@@Rising._.Thunder who made you king to decide whether the sweepers can take a risk or not! there is not sufficient data on the other side of the ledger (they are only reporting losses). please don't hold yourself in an exalted elite position above other humans.
@@rajrani2251 There is a difference between risk taking and drunk gambling. If one trades after having knowledge of their instruments and platforms, after having the knowhow to develope their own algos and using them, they can do whatever they want.
You are free to drink 50 liters of liquor daily year round, that is your own risk. Doesn't mean it is not stupid, or people trying to stop you are wrong.
Free will doesn't give one wisdom in using said will.
There’s a whole world of difference between understanding risk and taking that risk and not understanding and taking the same risk ! No one's curbing free market here, but providing a platform to clearly communicate that risk so that everyone takes an informed opinion. Institutionalized regulation providing effective and efficient communication is the norm in every matured and developed market and India is still a long way from it. Only government through its regulatory agencies can provide that.
@rajrani2251 I am with you on this! Let everyone trade! I am sure they will learn
If you sell cars to kids without driving license accidents will rise. Why is that a surprise? Make training in options before trading mandatory things will change
Very insightful. Key message… Stay clear of F&O unless you are a professional trader.
Not necessary. Learn it and play cautiously. Education is easier after making mistakes
Aam Aadmi ko Sip/MutualFund mein hi lagana chahiye, lagao aur bhul jaao 😂
At 30:04, SG is missing the point : Even though the southern states have lost less in overall terms, per capita-wise Karnataka at 1.37 L, TN at 1.37 L, AP at 1.45L, Kerala at 1.18 L and Telangana at a whopping 1.97 L have lost more than poorer states. So, in South, in general people might be smarter but also invest in traditional assets like Real Estate and Gold. But at the same time, those who venture into F&O are super greedy and play with no holds barred approach.
True. Also true is 28000 individual traders made excess of 10 lac. Over 2,200 traders made excess of 1cr. I am a tax paying trader n investor.
What is this nonsense all the time. The acceptance rate of UPSC civil services is 0.1 - 0.2%, for IIT JEE it is 1-2% and for NEET 2.5 - 4%.
In any field you work, only a handful of people will get successful. This is a stupid argument.
Plus. The large mkt share of India is in the num of contracts, not value of contracts - very important point
10.44 there is a massive group of people who do the scam and loot the money from overseas pensioners. here with in the country ill equipped people are made scapegoats to trade in the stock market with misleading advertisements and inducements. One to be blamed is the education system which doesn't equip people for life, also the equity of education and quality of education.
1) why SEBI can't restrict Foreign firms from F&O.. Just limit them on hedging
2) Keep seperate derivative exchanges and dont allow them to speculate with demat holding
3) Promote Hedge funds
"Limit them on hedging" "Promote hedge funds" Creative
Finally someone who actually understands the issue. Good job man.
Even before I hear the first sentence of this program, the Thumbnail is so atrocious - 93% of Indians? How? This amounts to nearly 125 crore Indians! When the wordsmiths get their words wrong, there is something to worry about.
Exactly
93% of those who trade
click bait, its called.
Make atrocious claims and expect people to click and the youtube algo will also put you on top
ThePrint is also jumping into the clickbait bandwagon. Even in journalism it is a 'dog eat dog' world. But at least these guys are original, do a lots of research and importantly present both the sides of the story
All you guys can't read plain English and jump to conclusions - it's not clickbait ! The caption clearly mentions ' Grand Casino ' which specifically indicates only those people who trade in F&O and not all Indian citizens.
Somewhat misleading headline? Secondary & Options market is zero sum game(minus commissions). When one looses(not sure if it’s right word) another one gains.
Agreed 100%
The big guys win , it's like casinos always win..
@@munagalavrr more accurate to say one loss one win per transaction. The big players can make many times more transactions with much better understanding. One hedge fund against thousands of retail players, the fund will win.
From the evidence it is clear that Guptaji is habituated to haunting bars and is familiar with the protocols of the denizens of these dives . Carry on Sirji .
when raga tweets abt something, beware - he is planning to destroy everything :)
At 32:05 : The chart says "in B30", but SG and Sharad say it is "outside of B30"
Why doesn't SEBI act against un registered finfluencers
LOVE ❤ The Way You Two Analysised IT ❤ Real Investor Loss in Option not Future Market Next Please Give Us " The Break Up "
Not just F&O there was news about 70% of Cash/Spot market participants were incurring loss. But discussions are only happening about losses in F&O. I don't think there was a time 51% retailers were making profits to be shocked by reports of this 93% retailers are incurring losses. Not just Fno whole trading (whether cash market or derivatives) was already known for 1% profit makers. One of the reason for increase in participation in Fno is SEBI removing margins back in 2021. Resulting in migration of active cash/spot market participants towards derivatives.
When investing in stocks one should be careful… people loose money when instead of using logic and fundamentals our GREED takes over. It’s not a new news. Govt is responsible only of malpractice is happening in stock market. If one invests like a fool listening some joker then these things are bound to happen.
No idea why SG making a video ? It’s not a new or recent trend. People loose money most of the time in stocks if invest without using fundamentals
Now again the world "Loot" should be written again in Oxford dictionaries but this time please write this in hindi
this is symptom not the disease, symptom of unemployment.
The Lottery has been a Culture in India for a long time now. Digital access has just proliferated this addiction through our open stock market with just a push of a button.
Very true
#ThePrint 🏆
Guptaji.... Leave this business to experts. You made it unnecessarily long.
Sebi should not take any step
Given time
The markets will mature on its own
We dont require a master with a stick
Teaching people discipline
The video is not up to the mark for what the print is known for
Gambling should be legalised..government can earn a lot which can be used for social sectors..decrease income tax...infrastructure in villages...etc
F&O trading is a professional subject. It will not stop. Once you understand the fundamentals it is safe and secure business. Real money is in option selling. KNOWLEDGE IS THE KEY. PEOPLE ALSO LOSE MONEY IN NORMAL EQUITY TRADING. IT IS ALL ABOUT LEARNING THE TRADING AND OPTIONS. FINANCIAL LITERACY REQUIRED FOR ALL OF US. THEN EARNING IS NOT DIFFICULT. IT WILL BE A PLEASURE. HEPPY TRADING.
Ironically fo training add showing on youtube.
Superb articulation, but again like the Statutory warning on all toxic stimulants
Poor coverage on understanding on derivatives. First derivatives are designed and meant to act as a hedge/insurance on underlying. If the product is used to speculate you have no control.
You pay insurance premium yoy and if you don’t claim, does that mean you are making a loss. That is what the video is inferring.
Sure, SEBI paper is a matter of concern for people who speculate, but your video that fno is for big players only is incorrect.
To whomsoever I talk who is trading in F&O , says he is making money from it.😅
The SEBI report has not been analysed properly. The report says 93% of individual traders make losses. This is because our Government is pro business and all the traders making profit form a company and trade in the name of the company to reduce income taxes and show the profit as income from business. Hence they are not classified as individual traders. The analysis does not say what percentage of non individual traders make losses. Also, the report does not say what percentage of option sellers make losses. 95% of start-ups end up making losses and close down. Does it mean starting a start-up is gambling? There are many successful traders who have left their highly paid jobs and become full time options traders.
Market liquidity is paramount. This is business & not gambling. Derivatives are hedging tools.
Such an irony. When Shekharji is explaining the losses in F&O trading by ordinary Indians, the ad breaks in between are talking about how to make money in trading..... 😂
There’s no right or easy solution for this… but overtime the individuals will learn and adapt… this is their learning….
Once sebi makes it difficult to speculate on exchanges and If these ppl are really gamblers then they will move on to Crypto for their kick…
At least here the Indian brokers and govt is making some money
In case these traders/gamblers move to crypto they will continue to loose money but the stock exchanges and brokers will loose so eventually they too will bring in crypto trading…
So I feel that the basic disadvantage that the Indian traders have is lack of AI tools to design their trade against the likes of the FII… so the SEBI can mandate that 10-20-% of the F&O fees/profit with the brokers and exchanges should be used to provide AI tools and training to the Indian traders…
Sir, the house doesn't gain all the 50000cr lost by individual speculators ... broker, exchanges earn only fees on the volume.
A good CTC away from the noisy political scenarios 👍
SEBI rules & regulations and high govt tax and brokerage is responsible for it---FNO lots should be max 1L with option of 0.10/0.25 lots in line with global CFD platforms should be introduced; also govt should introduce some course of financial analysis in the college levels
Govt needs to stop baby sitting its citizens, if people are making an informed decision to invest or gamble in the stock market then both losses and profits should be the responsibility of the individual.
Disagree. If middle class & working classes lose their savings, government will have to somehow feed them. Since there is more than enough empirical data that these naive chaps are gambling, better to tighten the screws and narrow the funnel.
@@va8085 Being naive is not an excuse, they were clearly not naive when it came to opening a trading account.
We have dreams of being a developed nation and a 30 trillion dollar economy, but want to keep treating our citizens as children.
by that logic, make drugs legal as well.
@@kevindsz I’m not for a big government or a nanny state. But we are not a $30 trillion economy yet. The day we cross $10000/capita, would strongly oppose any such regulations.
@@ashishjindal6382 Do you think drugs are not being sold in India right now? Are you a child?
I like it when I see more people ready to lose money so they have a chance to win big! Incredible
Here I was thinking Indians don't take risk! My thoughts have been challenged!
Known thing in AP and telangana. Thats says gambling and betting apps are rampant in AP and telangana in last 3 years. TH-camrs are dragging village and town based working class into this mess with advertisements. Time to make video on betting aps in India
Very informative discussion
@33:25. The ‘she’ is also most probably a ‘he’. A lot of the traders that I know trade from their mother’s , sister’s and wife’s account as well. So, it’s complicated than that.
Government says rummy dream11 etc are game of skill while F&O is gambling. Some real lobbying to promote MF and get commissions
Superb! After a very long time hearing interesting stuff from Shekhar ji. 😢
Ofcourse...now that's this is political...expect the grand old party will save the day.
Expect the next manifesto to offer some crazy sop for investors
Promoters Brokers Exchanges Government having Gala Time sucking retailers hard earned money. God save Retailers from vultures.
So the whiteman and babus are winning at the cost of ordinary indians. This gives me the British raj vibes
Cong leader talks about f&o (not sure he knows anything about it), the pc comes with his 'expert' views on economy (no clue what he knows) and then the 'journalist' bolsters the messaging. Well done
The government in this year's budget increased the transaction tax on F&O. Albeit by a very small proportion.
The funniest thing about this video is all the trading academy and stock market tips ads TH-cam is showing me right in middle of the video. 😜😂
As you said, the house always wins. Even TH-cam and ThePrint are "winning" from all the trading related ads on a video about evils of trading 😝
Sir i dont know why are not doing an episode on Tirupati Laddu controversy. Are you against south india issues
People will consume alcohol and smoke.
There's little that the government can do about it.
People will gamble.
I guess that you might as well shut down F&O.
How the hell do we prevent people from enjoying themselves?
There is no net loss in F&O,
It's a zero sum game , every penny lost is gained by someone else. Keeping taxes and charges aside.
How you can compare trading with casino . In casino money goes to casino owner but in fno trading profit goes to other counter party trader like any other business. In every business prudent and smart business man makes profit and other party incur loss
The Content The Need Of The Hour for market analysis
Easy to blame everyone else for their own indiscretions.
F&O is not for making money, it is for ring fencing your investments to ensure that losses are limited. Hedge funds and Insurance, Pension funds only should use it.
Options are a hedge against volatility, if one knows how to use them
you read the statewise losses chart wrong, the bar graphs are no. of traders, and the line is the losses.
Please record this episode in hindi and other Indian languages as well.
They comeback again because they want to zero in their losses and earn some profit. But they keep losing and losing. Three of my friends have lost 1 lakh rupees in last 3 years.
Since the govt is earning big money from f&o, they will not touch this.
Until people understand the volatility component of any financial product they will loose the money. A saying I read long ago, bulls make money bears make money but pig’s get slaughtered. So be a bull or a bear not the third category!!
Market loses 5 trillion in one day in equity and there is no buzz about that and there is F&O where there is a loss of 1.8 trillion in 3 years makes a buzz
why don't they understand market is a zero sum game
Under learned people lose their money every where even it is business, equity and so on, should they be banned
Options is a complicated product which needs learning. The person buying the option the loss is limited to the premium paid. If one is selling the loss is unlimited. The exchange has created more products wit weekly and monthly expiry. One needs to hedge the trade which requires more funds. Huge lot of variables one has to know to understand the trend of the market.
It is a combination of greed and financial nihilism that is driving people to take these risks.
Institutions thats sells options make all the money. For that they need huge huge funds. Option buyers are the toms, Dicks and Harry who pool up thousands and lakhs every week / months to fodder these f&o selling sharks. This is a game with one side success. Sadly, the ill informed / addicted and those who motivated by once failed traders now turned coaches easily fall to trap. Long live the brockers, nse, cbdt and institutions
Dear Sir, you spend a lot of time on disclaimers about what you don't know... you don't need to. We trust you to learn something quickly from right sources and demystify complex concepts and situations in easy way for us to understand and truthfully and in unbiased way. Please avoid such long disclaimers. Its cringe and only people who know you from past might have such questions on what you know or may not. We, your audience don't care for them:-)
Interesting episode on F&O. Thanks for bringing the focus on this important topic. I have a few comments -
1. Why is Govt not completely blocking options trading? How does it benefit the economy or the larger pool of retail investors?
2. You rightfully call F&O as a gambling and give data about how retail junta is losing money and how the gambling house always makes money. Yet you argue for making gambling legal in India. Won’t that create more such monsters which gobble money out of middle class people?
3. Ironically, your episode is interspersed with advertisements selling classes on F&O trading! 😊
FNO is not gambling. It is based on underlying asset prices. FNO is the best tool in the hands of a professional investor especially during times when Markets indices are high and risky. Best approach to combine compounding with risk management for an astute mathematician. The fact that 93% of traders lose money itself proves that the price movements are not random in nature and if you are an expert and falls within the top 2 percentile of traders, it is very profitable. That requires a good deal of research and mathematical acumen.
I always wonder why Shekhar ji invites an expert whenever he does 😅
Those who lost money in markets are those who had shorted Indian market for last 3 years...
Also some also might have hedged their equity positions
Last year i lost 70000 but will not blame market my fear was the reason for my losses
This year i have recovered my losses and in profits I overcame my fear now i am confident because i have come from behind
This year from 125000 i lost seventy thousand from there i have come back towards the same 125000 my target is 2lakh profit by end of this academic year my capital is 5 lac my returns calculations is 40 percentage which is better than 8 percentage from banks
Over trade you will loose that is for sure.
My loss was on 2 trades rest all my profit it came from various trades so my experience is my asset
This is all specific community of India who don’t even pay tax and invest such amount .We need to track the source of money of such people
There is no sympathy for these greedy and gullible people. People are bound to lose money if they want to earn a lot of money easily. Alas, there is no such thing called easy money unless one is born in a 27story building in South Mumbai.
Meanwhile sharad dont want sebi to act as nanny, and keep common man loosing money, (according to one of his episodes)
I was waiting for cut the clutter on this issue.... Thank you😁
28:55 For saying this, you may got to say "Sorry" personally to FM Amma.
100 pct loose their money multiple times before taking in a single profit. No economics, no mathematic knowledge and yet throwing money into the money pit.
future and options have risen due to stupid decisions made by sebi. be it reducing leverage in intraday or not allowing shorting the stock. optically options seem popular than they really are.
Sir.. why no one had made a story about the 7000cr scam in Assam….is it not important…?😮
The thing which govt, agencies, regulators, media are ignoring is the Prop Trading by brokerage firms which provide the platforms for trading. These firms have real time data on trading positions of their clients. The algorithms in software can be coded to make the most out of this game. In fact, prop trading using client funds for margins by platform firms should not be allowed.
I am fascinated by the title - Grand F&O Casino. I was wondering where is the casino in India until I realized what does F&O stand for. It is not bad to dabble in options if you keep it low key.
A fool and his/her money will soon be parted.
If you rush in to dump money in something you dont understand dont crib if you loose money. There are so many more avenues that give very good returns but there is no cure for greed.
And there can be no legislation for stupidity.
sir, as always extremely well researched and explained in a very simple language by none other than shekhar sir. Will you pl make a in-depth analysis about crypto-currencies wherein as per my estimation more money is lost all over the world ,not only just in India
As someone has said that Stock Markets are a place where people with patience earn money from those who are impatient