This is one of the most important videos ever made on the Carcano in my opinion; if one of us could discover an Italian manual which talked about these proper sight pictures it would really help bring more light to the Carcano.
UPDATE 3-20-22 Per the Italian Army Manual of 1916 'Addestramento Della Fanteria'- "linea di mira, cioè il retta determinato dal fondo della tacca di mira e dalla somita del mirino" i.e "line of sight, i.e. "the line determined by the bottom of the (rear) sight notch and the summit of the (front) sight". From another Manual- " La linea di mira è la retta immaginaria che, passando per il fondo della tacca di mira e sfiorando la sommità del mirino." Translated- The line of sight is the imaginary line that, passing through the bottom of the rear sight notch and touching the top of the front sight. And from the 1938 Manual 'Rivista Della Fanteria- Fucile Corto Calibro 7,35' refering to the new Model 1938 Rifle- "La trasformazione diede l'occasione di porre allo studio la con- venienza di sostituire il tipo dei punti di mira del '91 (mirino sfiorato) con uno dei tipi a mirino pieno. Le esperienze in corso daranno clementi di giudizio per decidere sull'opportunità della sostituzione degli attuali punti di mira." i.e "The transformation provided an opportunity to examine the possibility of replacing the '91 type of line of sight (grazed rear sight) with one of the full viewfinder types. Ongoing experience will provide leniency in deciding whether the current line of sight should be replaced." IOWs Friends, actual Proof of the Italiam Army that the Carcano was in fact aimed by placing the Tip of the Front Sight into the BOTTOM of the Rear Sight.
@@daveturner3776 Various Italian Carcano sites. The 7.35 is faster & flatter shooting, so a 200 meter Zero could be used. The same cannot be said for the 6.5.
did just what you & the manual said about top of the front sight & bottom of rear sight notch. Like about every military rifle from WW1 & WW2, that 300m/yd zero, a bit absurd for war or peace shooting. A little experimenting with the Carcano sights, & there was the 200m zero. At 100m, the "lollipop sight" and right on
The Koba makes a brave stance in taking on the subject. The concept of how military - 'battle' - sights are used is rather misunderstood. Even among those trained in the U. S. Armed Forces, the concept is often lost, forgotten, misapplied or something. The Koba makes an excellent point about the type of ammunition used. Military rifles - in general - have sights calibrated for the issue ammunition. So if the issue ammunition had a bullet of X weight and a muzzle velocity of Y feet per second (or metric), a change in bullet weight and or velocity changes the point of impact. Further, military rifles - in general - have 'battle sights' calibrated for the issue round over a long distance, not for a single, specific distance. So, even if 'this' particular ammunition - not issue - seems to impact in accord with the sights at a particular distance (usually in the U. S., 100 yards) it will not be on target appropriately at all the ranges intended in the original sight configuration. Cast bullets? As mentioned above, the ammunition - to work properly - has to be the original issue ammunition or a duplicate of the original. The load may be accurate, i.e., put all the shots into the same hole, more or less, BUT may very well require much different elevation setting at any given range. 5.5 inch circle target? Another good part of his problem is the target itself. This rifle - being a military rifle designed and configured to shoot at enemy soldiers - is not intended for a specific sight setting at X yards to hit a point target as used. The best target for this purpose - battle sight zero - is arguably the IPSC silhouette. Front post at base of V? Many of the European rifles from long ago up until after the Second World War were the V rear and inverted V front. They are horrible. But trying to put the tip of the front sight in the very bottom of the rear notch is making things ever horribler. (Which my computer informs me is not a real word.) All those sights were designed for aiming with the front sight even with the rear sight, top to top, and the front sight in the center of the rear notch. Point of aim was the bottom of the human torso or waist line. With all this criticism, I'd still like to thank The Koba for even daring to address the matter.
Yes, some details I can comment on from research: Battle sight zero, or the range at which the point of impact is the same as the point of aim, is usually a contrivance rather than a measured goal. For instance, for the M1903 Rifle shooting M1 ball (or later M2 ball) the battle sight zero when you shoot the rear leaf folded down is 547 yards. This means that the bullet will impact the point of aim at 547 yards, give or take depending on how honest the ammunition plant was in it's loading. HOWEVER, for the military aim hold as described above (about waist level), a bullet will strike someplace on a human target torso anywhere from zero to 600 yards. At short ranges the hits will be above point of aim while at 600 yards the target gets hit in the nads. But the point of aim is always the same, and the soldier does not have to dope elevation for the most part until range gets excessive. At that point, rather than pull up the ladder and try a long shot I suggest calling artillery!
Yes, you have a fairly correct idea of the concept. The "...strike ... on a human ... torso ... from zero to 600 yards..." is a hit for military purposes. At the 547 yard mark - you're on your own figuring out that location - the shooter shifts point of aim to the shoulder level and gets another thirty or forty yards of torso strike. I agree about utilizing artillery; but one must also remember the time and technology. This concept - battle sight zero - was developed actually prior to the use of smokeless powder. Therefore, in the early phases and still during World War One, 'calling' artillery meant sending a 'runner', a human being with information to the location of the artillery unit; not always conveniently located. No phones in the field and no radios. But I agree with you, Ranger, on the idea of firing at individuals at 600 yards and more. Even without immediate access to artillery or air support - also not available in the current sense - one might be better off to alert the Sergeant and notify the other troops in preparation to fire when the 'unholy' reached around 400 yards.
The 547 yard number comes from "Hatcher's Notebook". In testing the "point-blank range" (which is another musketry term that is most often misunderstood) they observed that the M1 Ball bullet impacted the point of aim at 547 yards when shooting over the leaf folded down. We often forget that our neat military surplus target rifles were not designed to shoot at 6" round targets at 100 yards!
Correctamundo! (Regarding the design intent.) When I said 'you're on your own figuring out that location' I meant it is up to the shooter to determine if 'the target' is this side or that side of the 547 yard marker. Truthfully, I'm not sure my old eyes could hold well enough to bother at - say - 560 yards. And yes, 'point blank range' has a specific meaning not typically understood or known by many who write about such things (and damn-well should know!)
I just looked. Apparently, Hornady, in recognition of the difference now makes proper .267" FMJ bullets for the Carcano as well as ammo. Check via Graf & Sons; Mexico, MO
Just shot my dads old Carcano was using Norma ammo brand only hit the target 1 time at about 60 yards out of 6 shots. I was aiming with the sight at the bottom of the v and missed. The one hit I lifted the sight higher and was left center but not even in the black. More practice needed before I bring it out to the deer stand! Thanks for this valuable info!
I don't know how the Italian's aimed with their sight's, but I do know the weight of the bullet will make a difference on your point of impact. And I have herd of making their own case's for those rifles too and I believe the make bullet molds for them too.
id like to see an accuracy test with prvi partizan .268 factory loaded rounds instead of what look like basic bolt manipulation demos. who cares if it cycles slow. im looking atvreal world applications not nostalgia.
Based on using Military Ammo (or close to), using the Italian "bottom of the V" sight alignment, with the Carcano's 300 meter Zero- the Rounds will be ~12" high at 100 yards, and ~ 14" high at 200 yards.
This helps tremendously and is consistent with what a former Italian soldier who is familiar with the rifle has told me. However, have you replicated your results with the Cav Carbine with more than two units? The more the better...
Took my Carcano M91 Carbine for its first trip to the range yesterday. At 50 yds I aimed (6" low) at the very bottom of the target with the top of front sight in bottom of the V on the rear fixed sight. I hit approximately the center of the target but was also hitting 6" left. One of the 5 shot group was decent (1 1/2-2"} considering it was the first time out and using the PPU .264 ammo. Once I corrected by aiming 6" low and 6" to the left, I was hitting around the bullseye.
hey. great video. thanks for the knowledge. i just picked one up and learning about it.. my brass was gettin stuck tho.,.(PPU) but also at like 20-25 yards(if that) the bullet was hitting sideways.... so.. just wondering if ud seen this.
My M41 keyholes at 50 yards with PPU ammo, ordered some Steinel and will see if it increases the accuracy. My 91/38 gets stuck cases but it has a mismatched bolt, did a thorough cleaning of the chamber and will see if that fixes it
@@julianchiarieri751 heck ya.. preciate it.. i will check out that ammo company.. i sodl the rifle tho. i sell guns. but i did get some enbloc clips for it at a gun show luckily.. interesting, the people a carcano brings in ; ) glad i got to have a time with the rifle
@@julianchiarieri751 unfortunantly i gave them with the rifle a week or so ago. if i see the guy who gave em to me i will get with u.. if u want , add me on facebook "MIA arsenal" u will see a chain link of 50 cal bullets as the image.. im blocked until the 30th .. cuz i posted a price list for ammo.. but im still there.. the gun goes to a local gunshow circuit with me. they were each diff colors.. one looked brass .. the other maybe blackish.
How does one go about taking the front sight assembly, the bayonet mount and sight, off a Carcano M91/38 cavalry carbine? I have a Brescia made gun which is adjustable and I want to put on a fixed battle sight on the gun, but aside from the small screw, I don't know if that front sight is soldered or peened on.
Why would you do that? If you want a Carcano with a fixed rear sight, then buy one. Also, what you have is an M91 Cavalry Carbine, not M91/38 (the version with fixed rear sights).
At 18:10 mins. you say the M41 battle sight (flipped forward) is zeroed at 100 yards. That cannot be correct ! 100 yards is ~ 91 meters. No long rifle would be given a 91 meter battle sight !
@ 6:10 The top of the Sight should be thinner / narrower. Many Carcano rear sights were ground down by shooters to lower the strike of the round. I ALSO have one that is obviously been ground down; and is lower / thicker than than it should be.
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This is one of the most important videos ever made on the Carcano in my opinion; if one of us could discover an Italian manual which talked about these proper sight pictures it would really help bring more light to the Carcano.
UPDATE 3-20-22
Per the Italian Army Manual of 1916 'Addestramento Della Fanteria'- "linea di mira, cioè il retta determinato dal fondo della tacca di mira e dalla
somita del mirino" i.e "line of sight, i.e. "the line determined by the bottom of the (rear) sight notch and the summit of the (front) sight".
From another Manual- " La linea di mira è la retta immaginaria che, passando
per il fondo della tacca di mira e sfiorando la sommità del
mirino." Translated- The line of sight is the imaginary line that, passing through the bottom of the rear sight notch and touching the top of the front sight.
And from the 1938 Manual 'Rivista Della Fanteria- Fucile Corto Calibro 7,35' refering to the new Model 1938 Rifle-
"La trasformazione diede l'occasione di porre allo studio la con-
venienza di sostituire il tipo dei punti di mira del '91 (mirino sfiorato) con uno dei tipi a mirino pieno. Le esperienze in corso daranno clementi di giudizio per decidere sull'opportunità della sostituzione
degli attuali punti di mira."
i.e "The transformation provided an opportunity to examine the possibility of replacing the '91 type of line of sight (grazed rear sight) with one of the full viewfinder types. Ongoing experience will provide leniency in deciding whether the current line of sight should be replaced."
IOWs Friends, actual Proof of the Italiam Army that the Carcano was in fact aimed by placing the Tip of the Front Sight into the BOTTOM of the Rear Sight.
What is your source for the 200 meter distance if you don't have the original manual?
@@daveturner3776 Various Italian Carcano sites.
The 7.35 is faster & flatter shooting, so a 200 meter Zero could be used.
The same cannot be said for the 6.5.
by going to a range @@daveturner3776
did just what you & the manual said about top of the front sight & bottom of rear sight notch. Like about every military rifle from WW1 & WW2, that 300m/yd zero, a bit absurd for war or peace shooting. A little experimenting with the Carcano sights, & there was the 200m zero. At 100m, the "lollipop sight" and right on
@@RichardGalli-r6iSo glad it worked for you !
Thank you and this was very helpful. Just picked up a Carcano Calvary Carbine and will use this information when I take it out to the range.
Make sure the rounds you buy are sized correctly, Carcanos are made for a .268 bullet, not the .264 thats common in commercial ammo.
The Koba makes a brave stance in taking on the subject. The concept of how military - 'battle' - sights are used is rather misunderstood. Even among those trained in the U. S. Armed Forces, the concept is often lost, forgotten, misapplied or something.
The Koba makes an excellent point about the type of ammunition used. Military rifles - in general - have sights calibrated for the issue ammunition. So if the issue ammunition had a bullet of X weight and a muzzle velocity of Y feet per second (or metric), a change in bullet weight and or velocity changes the point of impact.
Further, military rifles - in general - have 'battle sights' calibrated for the issue round over a long distance, not for a single, specific distance. So, even if 'this' particular ammunition - not issue - seems to impact in accord with the sights at a particular distance (usually in the U. S., 100 yards) it will not be on target appropriately at all the ranges intended in the original sight configuration.
Cast bullets? As mentioned above, the ammunition - to work properly - has to be the original issue ammunition or a duplicate of the original. The load may be accurate, i.e., put all the shots into the same hole, more or less, BUT may very well require much different elevation setting at any given range.
5.5 inch circle target? Another good part of his problem is the target itself. This rifle - being a military rifle designed and configured to shoot at enemy soldiers - is not intended for a specific sight setting at X yards to hit a point target as used. The best target for this purpose - battle sight zero - is arguably the IPSC silhouette.
Front post at base of V? Many of the European rifles from long ago up until after the Second World War were the V rear and inverted V front. They are horrible. But trying to put the tip of the front sight in the very bottom of the rear notch is making things ever horribler. (Which my computer informs me is not a real word.) All those sights were designed for aiming with the front sight even with the rear sight, top to top, and the front sight in the center of the rear notch. Point of aim was the bottom of the human torso or waist line.
With all this criticism, I'd still like to thank The Koba for even daring to address the matter.
Yes, some details I can comment on from research:
Battle sight zero, or the range at which the point of impact is the same as the point of aim, is usually a contrivance rather than a measured goal. For instance, for the M1903 Rifle shooting M1 ball (or later M2 ball) the battle sight zero when you shoot the rear leaf folded down is 547 yards. This means that the bullet will impact the point of aim at 547 yards, give or take depending on how honest the ammunition plant was in it's loading.
HOWEVER, for the military aim hold as described above (about waist level), a bullet will strike someplace on a human target torso anywhere from zero to 600 yards. At short ranges the hits will be above point of aim while at 600 yards the target gets hit in the nads. But the point of aim is always the same, and the soldier does not have to dope elevation for the most part until range gets excessive.
At that point, rather than pull up the ladder and try a long shot I suggest calling artillery!
Yes, you have a fairly correct idea of the concept. The "...strike ... on a human ... torso ... from zero to 600 yards..." is a hit for military purposes.
At the 547 yard mark - you're on your own figuring out that location - the shooter shifts point of aim to the shoulder level and gets another thirty or forty yards of torso strike.
I agree about utilizing artillery; but one must also remember the time and technology. This concept - battle sight zero - was developed actually prior to the use of smokeless powder. Therefore, in the early phases and still during World War One, 'calling' artillery meant sending a 'runner', a human being with information to the location of the artillery unit; not always conveniently located. No phones in the field and no radios.
But I agree with you, Ranger, on the idea of firing at individuals at 600 yards and more. Even without immediate access to artillery or air support - also not available in the current sense - one might be better off to alert the Sergeant and notify the other troops in preparation to fire when the 'unholy' reached around 400 yards.
The 547 yard number comes from "Hatcher's Notebook". In testing the "point-blank range" (which is another musketry term that is most often misunderstood) they observed that the M1 Ball bullet impacted the point of aim at 547 yards when shooting over the leaf folded down.
We often forget that our neat military surplus target rifles were not designed to shoot at 6" round targets at 100 yards!
Correctamundo! (Regarding the design intent.)
When I said 'you're on your own figuring out that location' I meant it is up to the shooter to determine if 'the target' is this side or that side of the 547 yard marker. Truthfully, I'm not sure my old eyes could hold well enough to bother at - say - 560 yards.
And yes, 'point blank range' has a specific meaning not typically understood or known by many who write about such things (and damn-well should know!)
I just looked. Apparently, Hornady, in recognition of the difference now makes proper .267" FMJ bullets for the Carcano as well as ammo. Check via Graf & Sons; Mexico, MO
Just shot my dads old Carcano was using Norma ammo brand only hit the target 1 time at about 60 yards out of 6 shots. I was aiming with the sight at the bottom of the v and missed. The one hit I lifted the sight higher and was left center but not even in the black. More practice needed before I bring it out to the deer stand! Thanks for this valuable info!
Norma works great in my beretta manufactured m91 carbine, very accurate
Thanks for helping us understand the Italian sight picture.
I don't know how the Italian's aimed with their sight's, but I do know the weight of the bullet will make a difference on your point of impact. And I have herd of making their own case's for those rifles too and I believe the make bullet molds for them too.
where did you get the cast bullet mold?
Sir, I just thought, do you have an actual Italian source showing the proper Carcano Sight Alignment ?
Thanks, IAC.
no
Thanks so much for doing this tutorial. It was really informative and helpful. Appreciate it!
What about the carcano with fixed rear sight? Is that used like a regular rifle sight?
id like to see an accuracy test with prvi partizan .268 factory loaded rounds instead of what look like basic bolt manipulation demos. who cares if it cycles slow. im looking atvreal world applications not nostalgia.
Good lord thank you for this video. My uncle gave me a 1917 TS and i had no idea how to aim it. Id always shoot 15 feet above the target
Same here. I have to revisit this video every 1-2 years to figure out how to aim haha
So basically aim under your target if closer than 200m
Based on using
Military Ammo (or close to), using
the Italian "bottom of the V" sight
alignment, with the Carcano's 300
meter Zero- the Rounds will be ~12"
high at 100 yards, and ~ 14" high at
200 yards.
@@iac4357never knew the measure of the deviation. 12” wow!!
This helps tremendously and is consistent with what a former Italian soldier who is familiar with the rifle has told me. However, have you replicated your results with the Cav Carbine with more than two units? The more the better...
Have you done any ballistic gel testing with those cast 6.5 loads? Wonder if they punch straight through or tumble...
Anyone know how to remove just the sight leaf on the carcano?
Took my Carcano M91 Carbine for its first trip to the range yesterday. At 50 yds I aimed (6" low) at the very bottom of the target with the top of front sight in bottom of the V on the rear fixed sight. I hit approximately the center of the target but was also hitting 6" left. One of the 5 shot group was decent (1 1/2-2"} considering it was the first time out and using the PPU .264 ammo. Once I corrected by aiming 6" low and 6" to the left, I was hitting around the bullseye.
Great video. Thank you.
hey. great video. thanks for the knowledge. i just picked one up and learning about it.. my brass was gettin stuck tho.,.(PPU) but also at like 20-25 yards(if that) the bullet was hitting sideways.... so.. just wondering if ud seen this.
My M41 keyholes at 50 yards with PPU ammo, ordered some Steinel and will see if it increases the accuracy. My 91/38 gets stuck cases but it has a mismatched bolt, did a thorough cleaning of the chamber and will see if that fixes it
@@julianchiarieri751 heck ya.. preciate it.. i will check out that ammo company.. i sodl the rifle tho. i sell guns. but i did get some enbloc clips for it at a gun show luckily.. interesting, the people a carcano brings in ; ) glad i got to have a time with the rifle
MIA 89 are those enblocs legit brass ones? Want to sell me some of them, I have two brass two spring steel and would like to have more in reserve
@@julianchiarieri751 unfortunantly i gave them with the rifle a week or so ago. if i see the guy who gave em to me i will get with u.. if u want , add me on facebook "MIA arsenal" u will see a chain link of 50 cal bullets as the image.. im blocked until the 30th .. cuz i posted a price list for ammo.. but im still there.. the gun goes to a local gunshow circuit with me. they were each diff colors.. one looked brass .. the other maybe blackish.
julian chiarieri hey man. give me a text or something. i have access to 20 legit brass ones
I dont know if I just suck or my gun/ammo sucks. 😅
How does one go about taking the front sight assembly, the bayonet mount and sight, off a Carcano M91/38 cavalry carbine? I have a Brescia made gun which is adjustable and I want to put on a fixed battle sight on the gun, but aside from the small screw, I don't know if that front sight is soldered or peened on.
Why would you do that? If you want a Carcano with a fixed rear sight, then buy one. Also, what you have is an M91 Cavalry Carbine, not M91/38 (the version with fixed rear sights).
At 18:10 mins. you say the M41 battle sight (flipped forward) is zeroed at 100 yards.
That cannot be correct !
100 yards is ~ 91 meters.
No long rifle would be given a 91 meter battle sight !
100 meters my mistake,
@@TheKoba49
It's a 200 meters Zero.
@@iac4357 You should make your own video then.
@@iac4357 make your own vid
What do you use to polish the stocks
Kane House please don't pokish the stock if it's original. Leave it as is.
SA FINNISH WERE ALTERED FOR 150 YDS MINE SHOOTS FINE?????
Thanks! Very useful
Cosi Ho capito come sparare con il mio mod. 38 7,35cal......
Those fixed sights have not been ground! What justification do you have to claim that?
@ 6:10 The top of the Sight should be thinner / narrower. Many Carcano rear sights were ground down by shooters to lower the strike of the round.
I ALSO have one that is obviously been ground down; and is lower / thicker than than it should be.
6.5 is a amazing bullet but I love my Spanish mouser better
Kane House I also have both. Slowly becoming a big fan of the 6.5 Carcano. I'd love to build a sporter off a beat up one like he has in the video.