It's a Halloween ghost arm actuator, skeleton head turner, etc. In the US, a true damper actuator in a commercial bldg is made of metal and is quite a bit larger. And the ones I've seen have a position sensor so they can be set anywhere from full off to full on. Someday I hope you pair up a thermostat, an actuator and 24 VAC to show how a VAV - variable air velocity unit works. Thanks, Clive.
The fact that a cheap... (er, 'frugal')...landlord can also order these from eBay or Amazon almost certainly means that there are, in fact, commercial installations of these 'dampers'.
I worked in a office with a system made by California Economizer. The damper motors were supposed to be 90 seconds for 90 degrees rotation. The system would switch between cool and heat as required depending on a majority vote of all thermostats. The fan would stop and all dampers would be run shut for 90 seconds open loop, maybe stalling. The rooms calling for conditioned air would then have their motors run for multiples of ten seconds equating to steps of 10 degrees of damper rotation. When the dampers were adjusted, the fan would switch on. There was also a bypass damper on the plenum to allow any excess volume to simply recirculate in the plenum. The problem was some under-educated HVAC tech had put in five minute motors when the building was renovated and almost immediately all dampers assumed random positions. As a quick fix, we manually opened them all to 45 degrees and disconnected the motor wires. The boss didn’t want to buy new motors, so it stayed that way until the company vacated the building for a new headquarters.
@@msmith3537 I believe the California Economizer supported only 90 second damper timing. It was a pretty old system. The room thermostats were connected by I believe RS-485 and the dampers were individual circuits coming from an expansion board connected to the main controller, 24 VAC, 60 Hz. motors. I thought it was pretty easy to figure out even though I’d never seen a zoned system before, but it threw a service person who was supposed to know commercial HVAC for a loop and he gave up. My boss was one and done on service calls because we were renting, so I suggested we just manually open all dampers half way. The fist day I worked there, I had 50 degree F and 100 degree F air alternately blowing down my neck every five minutes and I got a horrible neck ache, so there was a lot of incentive on my part to get the problem resolved.
Love your videos. Thank you for doing what I did as a child. Yes, I took all my toys apart to see what was inside. As much as my parents hated that, it educated me on components and how things work. Thanks again!
So many of us did the exact same and for many of us it led to careers working with design or repair of mechanical and electronic items. I often wonder if Clive puts things back together or if he just shoves the item to the side like I did so often as a kid and teenager!
My house has one of these installed on the intake side of the air handler and it opens and closes a damper in a duct that leads to the outside. The builder claimed that since the house is/was so well insulated that code required it to draw in fresh outside air from time to time. It is connected to a timer that was set to open the damper and run the handler at a reduced speed for 15 minutes every 45 minutes. I can’t tell you how god awful annoying it was to hear the blower running constantly in the finished basement about a foot away from the couch. Upon further investigation I found that the flap at the end of the duct on the exterior of the house was not only the wrong style of flap but was mounted backwards. So every time the damper opened the air handler sucked the flap shut. Genius!
1:55 In fact, it takes more force to close the valve, because when totally open, air pressure is balanced on both sides. It then acts like the wings on a arrow. Once the valve has moved from this balanced position, the unbalance enlights the force on the actuator.
@@whitemonkey7932 yes, but if there is a heavy volume of air passing by, and the valve is completely open, and the actuator gets power to start closing the valve, the start current at the first milliseconds is higher then the start current when the valve is closed and the actuator gets power to start opening. When a butterfly valve is completely open, you have a laminar air stream, when a closed valve starts to open, you start with a turbulent air stream.
Fire damper motors I've seen in Australia are much more substantial spring-return (fail-safe) devices with switch outputs to indicate position. Solid metal cases as part of the fire rating. They sound more like the water valves you described.
its an actuator for hvac systems with variable vain ouets. this device can open and close air ducts to add or stop air going to a specific area based on temperture.
This is a cost effective version of the VAV units I am used to seeing in the world of HVAC solutions. Ones That I have played with had duct pressure, I/O dry contacts for valve/fan controls, and a bunch of other options shy of keyboard bashing to program it to do whatever you need it to do.
Exactly. Make things as simple and robust as possible. No use in overcomplicating the design! I wish people would do the same in computer programming. It would make many systems more robust. And much safer. What is not present can not break, and it can also not be attacked.
I had no idea these existed! It's perfect for a little automated woodstove project I've been gathering parts for. I need to ditch the motor for a servo but all the hardware is perfect, I found a small 3" one with silicone seals.
Its so much fun watching your videos Big Clive, you have such a melodic sleep inducing voice, it's just so nice listening to your description of the things you rip apart. Nice video as usual an excellent TH-cam channel please keep up the good work BigClive. I have to point out that for 220 to 240 volts those are very very thin wires with correspondingly thin insulation, I wouldn't want to be working on a system using those tiny wires, wait a mo, I'm not an electrician so I guess I will never be working on this setup but I do feel for electricians who do though. Also all this time I thought I was subscribed to your channel with the corresponding bell filled in, but alas I now know why I was never informed of your new videos apologies BigClive that has been rectified. Again lovely informative video thank you BigClive.
I used a lot of similar but much larger valve actuator back in the day and also help design some for the chemical industry. We used to send power and control data over a twisted pair.
Considering they use nylon gears for the air damper actuator for the Pontiac Vibe (and other GM vehicles), I can reasonably say that it's not going to last 50,000 cycles. The actuator 'halts' by jamming itself against the end of travel. When you reverse it, it moves slowly until it jams to a halt at the other end of travel - until it breaks teeth, and starts going 'thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk'. It generally breaks within 5 years of driving. I went through three in two vehicles.
A very reliable configuration. Runs on line voltage👍 a similar configuration that runs 5 volt dc is prone to micro- corrosion and presents many difficulties, over time.
I have a linear actuator from China. I use it to open and close a door lock. It works reasnably well and has for the past 7 years. The downside is that the plastic coller through which the piston slides has detached itself.
I had a long and rough day with a lot of things going wrong... I come home, listen to this man and despite still not understanding jackshit about electronics I just feel better because of Clive's beautiful voice. Clive, have you ever done any audiobooks or other narrations? I genuinely would like hearing some story being told by you.
If you want long videos where you hear his beautiful soothing voice you could try recordings of his live streams. He usually rambles on around all kinds of topics for 2+ hours.
Every now and then, and it is genuinely rare, you'll find someone on TH-cam with a fantastic voice. Clive certainly is of this calibre. If any of you like combat sports of any sort (or a man with a fantastic voice who looks great in sportswear... yes, ladies and gentlemen... tight sportswear) have a look at the Ramsey Dewey channel.
We understand plenty. I took apart a Honeywell Digital Oscillating Floor fan the other day and it used this same type of low RPM alarm clock motorb to do the oscillations. The main motorb seems fried so I was thinking of turning it into a red LED light pivoter and put my Tiffany White Glass window I made in front of it to do ripplelike projections and such.
Interesting thing. I wonder what determines the direction. The motor doesn't have two separate windings for left and right, and it's AC powered, so if it's stopped in between extreme positions (e.g. due to power loss while operating), there's probably no way of telling which direction it will rotate when powered. I've worked on a 24VDC linear actuator that had limit switches bypassed with diodes to allow it going in the opposite direction, but that's pretty self-explanatory. Note that while one wire will be cut off in an extreme position, both of them will be live during changeover. Relay based control circuits will be safe against it, but anything with SCR might not.
Synchronous AC motors are special, if they can't go one way, they'll try to go the other way. In your scenario, when power returns, the motor can go the either direction, but then stall at the other end and reverse direction until it hits the right switch.
When it's somewhere in the middle, the direction of turning might be purely down to which part of the sine wave it's in. I remember hearing that explanation with regard to the microwave's turntable motor. Could be wrong, though.
@@rolfs2165 I only (relatively) recently discovered this about synchronous motors. One day, while staring at something being radiated to hotness, it seemed that the turntable was going backwards. I started to pay attention, and it seemed like it _often did_ go backwards. I brought this up to the missus, who stared at it, then declared I was wrong (as she often does.) So the next time we had to microwave something in short spurts, I made a bet with her that it did randomly reverse direction, and was gratified to learn I was right. Life is made substantially sweeter by small victories such as this.
That's actually more expensive/complex than I expected. I expected two coils, on a solenoid of sorts, and linkage to make it go fully open or fully closed
Looks about the same quality as the diverter valve motor assemblies in Baxi & Potterton boilers, all nice and plasticky and deformably bendy when hot... :P
Found another listing for what looks like the same unit but more expensive, says it fits a 75mm (3 inch) pipe, shows it attached to a PVC pipe. In the US home HVAC ducts are 6 inch or larger.
As others have mentioned , the motor is similar to many turntable motors from microwave ovens ... there are many uses for these , from dumped ovens ... 1st , mounted at the base of Christmas tree with a long rod to the top can be used for an ever rotating fairy ( ? , hmm ) next 2nd , grip the 3 prong platter rotator adaptor , give it a hefty twist , the motor's rotor will spin at huge speed , and will deliver a painful shock if you are in contact with the power tabs ! ! ... this will light neons / or strings of LEDs , if you go via a bridge rectifier............
Interesting - would be something to see you compare to the USA damper controls that are 24VAC and I gather typically auto return so you energize it to close, de-energize to open (or vice versa) but I think work holding it with motor stall not a switch.
OK. 50,000 cycles must be the specification of the specimen valve controller they copied to produce this cheap version. I doubt this version can reach 5,000 open /close cycles. This valve controllers can be in very critical roles. The 3 Mile Island incident was caused by an open valve that reported to be closed. Thank you BigClive for the video...
To be fair, the indicator light at TMI was not actually connected to contacts on the valve, it was instead wired in parallel with the solenoid. The light just showed you what had been commanded, not what had actually happened
I purchased an inline damper valve from ebay, knowing it would be fairly Chinesey and indeed it's one of these actuators, by the way it moved I figured it was something fairly simple by design, I've not installed it now but now I see it's a little less of a fire risk than first thought, I think I'll go for it - interesting side note about the non-active terminal being live though, I'll watch out for that - my plan is to use a smart switch to time a bathroom fan and use this to close off any draughts, the manual backdraught shutters flap and bang so are less desirable!
As for the different duct sizes and "adapter plates": They will just change the black plastic piece you pulled the screws out (the right piece at the end of the video).
Hehehe a job for us process control engineers...I use TIA17 which now supports autotune but I can generally tune a P I loop quicker myself. Honeywell UDC controllers are generally pretty good at autotuning
We have chiller valves that work off a tiny motor like that. They run a vertical screw on plastic gears. They hold up decently however the motor gets very very hot. ⚡️⚡️⚡️
¼ turn or 90deg butterfly valve. Larger version used in water industry under quite high pressures. The opening issues you mention are far more of a problem on gate valves, when often smaller pressure bypass actuators are used. Bit off topic.
Be interesting if one of the switches fails in the closed position, the motor would have sufficient torque to try and keep running and most likely break plastic components before stalling, worth an experiment!
That looks like the device inside a portable A/C unit I have in the loft of my house. It moves inner directional blades and can be set to "swing" back and forth directing air to the left and right of the unit. For a portable A/C unit it works fine, it was a gift so it's hard for me to justify replacing it until it dies of natural causes as it does the job well enough.
I'm guessing that the convenient reversing mechanism is employed by the like of Toshiba to use for the oscillating discharge vent function on their aircon discharge heads.
that really looks like a microwave plate rotator motor, also the speed seems the same... i bet you can copy the design and make one yourself with a microwave one, switches included.... btw, that motor is not only syncronous so mains is precise in frequency and it is as well, and it's also an high voltage generator, if you take a microwave oven one and rotate it by hand it can even light up small fluo tubes, i did once and used too much force and apparently a plastic gear inside lost a pair of teeth LOL, now it jumps
damn i need one of these for my diy fume hood. i have a little window leading outside in the workshop with a door i open when i go to use it, and some duct work inside connected to a bathroom vent fan over my work space. it would be much easier to press a button.
the mechanics flip it by stalling it out. the motor without the physical constraint runs in a random direction because of the position of the rotor, relative to the position of the ac sine wave. that is, leading, it will be clockwise for example and lagging it will be counter-clockwise.
the ones you are thinking of have a tiny pawl in them that performs the function of stalling and putting it into a single direction. mains mechanical clocks were like that.
I have seen something similar in the fan heater motor that makes it oscillate back and forth, not even with endswitches just senses the motor is blocked and turns the other way. It broke after a couple of months and keeps turning in one direction. Even this motor looks like it has bad quality limit switches and will probably go bad in a few months of use at best. I would trust this horrible contraption in an airduct system that is hard to reach in case issues arise.
@@davelowets mine is different. It has a 240V 4W motor with only two pins in the input. At first it worked fine but afterwards It wouldn't turn back in one direction and kept grinding the gears. I opened it and tested it the motor turns both ways.
One of our immediate neighbours buggered off on holiday a week ago, leaving their automated garden irrigation system running. Within 24 hours, it malfunctioned. The timer works, but a valve / actuator doesn’t. So, when it is running every evening, every couple of seconds or so it makes a weird metallic raspy coughing noise - imagine, if you will, a metallic cat coughing up a swarf ball. Every evening until the wee smalls. And they don’t come back for another week, by which time, they will owe us a beer or three.
How about an expensive actuator from ebay Is it me or were parts of the video blurry, like a funky encode Maybe you could use this in a sign, like a waving motion
Reminds me of a 3 port zone valve, are you familiar with those? They use a diode to DC lock the motor at mid position and add a little AC resistor to stop the motor becoming magnetized in one direction. Very simple device but quite clever in operation. For so few components they can make the brain work quite hard to work out what is actually going on.
I recently bought a bunch of hvac dampers from aliexpress that have this same actuator and it seems like a much better solution than the honeywell dampers that have a spring loaded clutch on motor that runs all the time when actuated and springs back the damper when disconnected. I think it will last longer and it's 20% the cost of a commercial honeywell damper.
Maybe I should look for some zone valve actuators on Aliexpress. I've already had to replace one of my Honeywell ones after about 5 years, which works the same way I think. For as much as those things cost, and as simple as they are, they should never ever ever fail. >:-\
Im starting to not trust in Honeywell products anymore. Their electronic hot water heater controlers were an absolute joke, and caused MANY MANY people to give up and have to replace their hot water heater way earlier than they should have. That wasn't the only product of theirs that had issues either..
Without watching first - as I do - I will go out on a limb and wonder if these are like the actuators that ElectroBoom just replaced on his hot water heating system. I'll go watch now.
I’m tempted to send you a module that failed in a car of mine. Since we seem to be used to replacing them all the time, I’d be interested in what causes them to fail.
If it's a GM product then it's the plastic bull gear has split and that allows it to pop over the pot metal output shaft splines such that the computer can never drive it to it's stopped calibrated closed position. eBay guy started selling 3D printed bull gears for 20 bucks and made a killing. I got one and it fixed the issue completely, didn't have any other issues with dozens of other GM HVAC door motors so far. North of 80 dollars otherwise.
You need more insulation on those live feeds for use at 220/230/240 V ! Those soldered connections are rubbish too. You're meant to wrap the wire around the terminal before soldering.
I imagine this is not designed for continuous service, that looks like a lot of force being exerted through the gearbox before it stalls and starts to reverse, normally this type mechanism have a small spring 'kicker' to ensure the motor goes in the correct direction, this item looks as if its using the stored backlash torque in the gearbox to throw it back in the other direction.
I'm a bit disappointed there's not a microcontroller involved, since it seems even cheap flashlights and light switches have them anymore. 🙄 Is my genX sarcasm showing? I've got a few synchronous motors in the parts bins, this gives me some ideas of what to do with them! 😁
i could see myself re making this with a 3 printed cover with the sort of micro switches that have the leavers on, in theory it would cut off sooner before being forced against the switches?
But, that's "Photonic Induction's" job, surely? He destroys things that way. "We're gonna take it, and then we're gonna pop it, just to see how many volts it can handle"......!
@@ianhosier4042 I really don't know. I heard mention that he was set to make a reappearance, but no more than that. Just so long as he's alive and well, that's what matters I think. But, he was taking an awful lot of risks with what he was doing, wasn't he?
@@whitesapphire5865 I do a lot of high voltage testing at work and sometimes it ends with fire and smoke! Needless to say it's all done within an interlocked fireproof room and one sits in a screened control room whilst stupidly high voltages get applied to things - it's mostly testing of high voltage transmission equipment. I wouldnt think of doing such experiments at home.
@@ianhosier4042 Very much so. I used to get the creeps just going under the high tension power lines (45kV?). I couldn't imagine playing around with the sort kit he has in his house. I once destroyed a Fluke multimeter but accidentally connecting it across the output of a microwave oven transformer. I restore vintage radio and TV etc. and have a healthy respect for the voltages in them. Like you, I couldn't imagine letting high voltages loose in the living room.
A standard synchronous motor has no specific direction. It starts in a random direction, and if stalled will go in the other direction. Some simple single direction motors have a mechanism that stalls it if it goes in the wrong direction to make it reverse into the right direction. Your microwave oven turntable motor is most likely a standard synchronous motor, so it will go in a random direction each time it's used.
@@bigclivedotcom single direction synchronous motors were used in mains mechanical clocks. i think there was a tiny pawl inside to always kick it into the correct direction.
If you would like to test the 50,000 cycle claim, by my calculations it would require 4 1/4 days of continuous operation. Or does a cycle consist of two runs? Anyway. Even if you choose to be kind and arrange for it a 15% duty cycle that is only a month... or two. You'll want to add a temp cut-off in case it jams up of course, if there is not one already in that motor. At the temps you keep your place this could be a nice little 4W heater 🙂 or to make something move to prevent birds from making a nest where they will poop on your porch. I'd hope this is capable of continuous duty in the event of failure of the control circuitry but its possible that it will cook itself in time at 4W. I fear that it won't take much of a load to chew up the plastic gearing in less than a week.
Hi can you do a video on a cheap Chinese radio how to get it to sweep though channels like the sprirt box that paranormal groups us please it would be interesting how it works and the understanding of it, if its real or fake
If a mfr. was particularly evil, they could make one or more of the self-tapping screws holding the thing together left-hand threads, so that when Clive (or some Clive-like fellow) comes along to disassemble their little goody, he is likely to strip out one or more of the screws, thus teaching the Running Capitalist Dog a lesson he will never forget.
That would cost more to manufacture. Left hand thread screws aren't churned out in millions everyday. Nice idea though. Might be worth the added manufacturing expense just to hear the cursing.
It's a Halloween ghost arm actuator, skeleton head turner, etc. In the US, a true damper actuator in a commercial bldg is made of metal and is quite a bit larger. And the ones I've seen have a position sensor so they can be set anywhere from full off to full on. Someday I hope you pair up a thermostat, an actuator and 24 VAC to show how a VAV - variable air velocity unit works. Thanks, Clive.
I'd be interested in seeing the insides of the actuators with the position sensor too
Wouldn’t this be fine for a domestic actuator though? Multi zoning on domestic hvac?
The fact that a cheap... (er, 'frugal')...landlord can also order these from eBay or Amazon almost certainly means that there are, in fact, commercial installations of these 'dampers'.
@@JasperJanssen yes it would be fine for domestic or commercial hvac however your mileage may vary
I too would be interested to see a metal actuator function.
I worked in a office with a system made by California Economizer. The damper motors were supposed to be 90 seconds for 90 degrees rotation. The system would switch between cool and heat as required depending on a majority vote of all thermostats. The fan would stop and all dampers would be run shut for 90 seconds open loop, maybe stalling. The rooms calling for conditioned air would then have their motors run for multiples of ten seconds equating to steps of 10 degrees of damper rotation. When the dampers were adjusted, the fan would switch on. There was also a bypass damper on the plenum to allow any excess volume to simply recirculate in the plenum. The problem was some under-educated HVAC tech had put in five minute motors when the building was renovated and almost immediately all dampers assumed random positions. As a quick fix, we manually opened them all to 45 degrees and disconnected the motor wires. The boss didn’t want to buy new motors, so it stayed that way until the company vacated the building for a new headquarters.
"There's nothing more permanent than a temporary fix that works."
@@tactileslut says the doctor, who fixed my hand.
@@tactileslut Well stated. 🙂
This is a more common mistake than you know. Good description. Sometimes, the controller provides alternate damper timing.
@@msmith3537 I believe the California Economizer supported only 90 second damper timing. It was a pretty old system. The room thermostats were connected by I believe RS-485 and the dampers were individual circuits coming from an expansion board connected to the main controller, 24 VAC, 60 Hz. motors. I thought it was pretty easy to figure out even though I’d never seen a zoned system before, but it threw a service person who was supposed to know commercial HVAC for a loop and he gave up. My boss was one and done on service calls because we were renting, so I suggested we just manually open all dampers half way. The fist day I worked there, I had 50 degree F and 100 degree F air alternately blowing down my neck every five minutes and I got a horrible neck ache, so there was a lot of incentive on my part to get the problem resolved.
Love your videos.
Thank you for doing what I did as a child. Yes, I took all my toys apart to see what was inside. As much as my parents hated that, it educated me on components and how things work.
Thanks again!
So many of us did the exact same and for many of us it led to careers working with design or repair of mechanical and electronic items. I often wonder if Clive puts things back together or if he just shoves the item to the side like I did so often as a kid and teenager!
I also took my toys appart as a child for the same reason, and to this day i still love to take things appart
Me too. I was like 5 when dad brought old radios and stuff for me to take apart so that I would not destroy everything :-)
Here is another like-minded from India.
My house has one of these installed on the intake side of the air handler and it opens and closes a damper in a duct that leads to the outside. The builder claimed that since the house is/was so well insulated that code required it to draw in fresh outside air from time to time. It is connected to a timer that was set to open the damper and run the handler at a reduced speed for 15 minutes every 45 minutes. I can’t tell you how god awful annoying it was to hear the blower running constantly in the finished basement about a foot away from the couch. Upon further investigation I found that the flap at the end of the duct on the exterior of the house was not only the wrong style of flap but was mounted backwards. So every time the damper opened the air handler sucked the flap shut. Genius!
In the oscillation mode it could be repurposed as an illuminated sign swinger - or a Santa on the roof 😊 (with suitable weather protection).
Careful with swinging Santa there may be a swinging fairy close by...
this was my first thought, cycle test it with a santa!
@@frogz 50000 cycles = 2½ week
That is the rating but will it last longer or shorter?
@@frogz Without knowing what gear train is inside the motor, it's just a guess.
I like that you give exhaustive descriptions under the video. Thanks to this, I can see what you are talking about
1:55 In fact, it takes more force to close the valve, because when totally open, air pressure is balanced on both sides. It then acts like the wings on a arrow. Once the valve has moved from this balanced position, the unbalance enlights the force on the actuator.
Actually that is a balanced damper...pretty much equal at all positions
@@whitemonkey7932 yes, but if there is a heavy volume of air passing by, and the valve is completely open, and the actuator gets power to start closing the valve, the start current at the first milliseconds is higher then the start current when the valve is closed and the actuator gets power to start opening.
When a butterfly valve is completely open, you have a laminar air stream, when a closed valve starts to open, you start with a turbulent air stream.
Fire damper motors I've seen in Australia are much more substantial spring-return (fail-safe) devices with switch outputs to indicate position. Solid metal cases as part of the fire rating. They sound more like the water valves you described.
its an actuator for hvac systems with variable vain ouets. this device can open and close air ducts to add or stop air going to a specific area based on temperture.
This is a cost effective version of the VAV units I am used to seeing in the world of HVAC solutions. Ones That I have played with had duct pressure, I/O dry contacts for valve/fan controls, and a bunch of other options shy of keyboard bashing to program it to do whatever you need it to do.
Exactly. Make things as simple and robust as possible. No use in overcomplicating the design!
I wish people would do the same in computer programming. It would make many systems more robust. And much safer.
What is not present can not break, and it can also not be attacked.
I had no idea these existed! It's perfect for a little automated woodstove project I've been gathering parts for. I need to ditch the motor for a servo but all the hardware is perfect, I found a small 3" one with silicone seals.
Its so much fun watching your videos Big Clive, you have such a melodic sleep inducing voice, it's just so nice listening to your description of the things you rip apart. Nice video as usual an excellent TH-cam channel please keep up the good work BigClive. I have to point out that for 220 to 240 volts those are very very thin wires with correspondingly thin insulation, I wouldn't want to be working on a system using those tiny wires, wait a mo, I'm not an electrician so I guess I will never be working on this setup but I do feel for electricians who do though. Also all this time I thought I was subscribed to your channel with the corresponding bell filled in, but alas I now know why I was never informed of your new videos apologies BigClive that has been rectified. Again lovely informative video thank you BigClive.
I used a lot of similar but much larger valve actuator back in the day and also help design some for the chemical industry. We used to send power and control data over a twisted pair.
A great little circuit to prototype onto a PCB for a model railway project, to switch two LEDs to flash back and forth like Pelican Crossing Beckons.
When Clive gets mad because things don’t come to bits easily, he instantly resorts to brute force.😂
That's the pressure of having the camera rolling.
Doesn't everyone??
Is there another method?
@@cornrichard no. Brute force is the way to go.
@@davelowets yes, unless it involves fixing electronics.
Considering they use nylon gears for the air damper actuator for the Pontiac Vibe (and other GM vehicles), I can reasonably say that it's not going to last 50,000 cycles. The actuator 'halts' by jamming itself against the end of travel. When you reverse it, it moves slowly until it jams to a halt at the other end of travel - until it breaks teeth, and starts going 'thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk, thunk'. It generally breaks within 5 years of driving. I went through three in two vehicles.
A very reliable configuration. Runs on line voltage👍 a similar configuration that runs 5 volt dc is prone to micro- corrosion and presents many difficulties, over time.
I have a linear actuator from China. I use it to open and close a door lock. It works reasnably well and has for the past 7 years. The downside is that the plastic coller through which the piston slides has detached itself.
I had a long and rough day with a lot of things going wrong...
I come home, listen to this man and despite still not understanding jackshit about electronics I just feel better because of Clive's beautiful voice.
Clive, have you ever done any audiobooks or other narrations? I genuinely would like hearing some story being told by you.
We have repeatedly told him that he sounds like Sean Connery especially when he shays the word inshulation.
I fully agree with this statement.
The art of electronics, narrated by Bigclive
If you want long videos where you hear his beautiful soothing voice you could try recordings of his live streams. He usually rambles on around all kinds of topics for 2+ hours.
Every now and then, and it is genuinely rare, you'll find someone on TH-cam with a fantastic voice. Clive certainly is of this calibre. If any of you like combat sports of any sort (or a man with a fantastic voice who looks great in sportswear... yes, ladies and gentlemen... tight sportswear) have a look at the Ramsey Dewey channel.
You could use it as an oscillator for a cheap desk fan! Sorry, those in the colder climates would not understand. 🥵
We understand plenty. I took apart a Honeywell Digital Oscillating Floor fan the other day and it used this same type of low RPM alarm clock motorb to do the oscillations. The main motorb seems fried so I was thinking of turning it into a red LED light pivoter and put my Tiffany White Glass window I made in front of it to do ripplelike projections and such.
I had never thought of this. I think some tinkering will be needed
I was totally surprised to see two microswitches inside. Somehow, i expected just some beryllium copper strips.
I think that someone got the message about beryllium copper strips being a bit unhealthy - even China do care a bit about returning customers.
It is also listed with different valve body sizes (interfaces) "Air Damper Valve Electric Air Duct Motorized Damper for Ventilation Pipe Valve"
Nothing beats Clive videos in the morning while I eat my breakfast I love switch actuator pressures etc videos. Have a nice week
Interesting thing. I wonder what determines the direction. The motor doesn't have two separate windings for left and right, and it's AC powered, so if it's stopped in between extreme positions (e.g. due to power loss while operating), there's probably no way of telling which direction it will rotate when powered. I've worked on a 24VDC linear actuator that had limit switches bypassed with diodes to allow it going in the opposite direction, but that's pretty self-explanatory.
Note that while one wire will be cut off in an extreme position, both of them will be live during changeover. Relay based control circuits will be safe against it, but anything with SCR might not.
Synchronous AC motors are special, if they can't go one way, they'll try to go the other way.
In your scenario, when power returns, the motor can go the either direction, but then stall at the other end and reverse direction until it hits the right switch.
When it's somewhere in the middle, the direction of turning might be purely down to which part of the sine wave it's in. I remember hearing that explanation with regard to the microwave's turntable motor. Could be wrong, though.
@@rolfs2165 Your not.
@@rolfs2165 I only (relatively) recently discovered this about synchronous motors. One day, while staring at something being radiated to hotness, it seemed that the turntable was going backwards. I started to pay attention, and it seemed like it _often did_ go backwards.
I brought this up to the missus, who stared at it, then declared I was wrong (as she often does.) So the next time we had to microwave something in short spurts, I made a bet with her that it did randomly reverse direction, and was gratified to learn I was right.
Life is made substantially sweeter by small victories such as this.
@@Okurka. and all - thanks for the replies, it's all clear to me now :)
Awesome timing Clive, just bought some of the 12v ones for my air con. Cheers mate keep up the great work.
That's actually more expensive/complex than I expected.
I expected two coils, on a solenoid of sorts, and linkage to make it go fully open or fully closed
Looking up one of those cliff quick test units, it makes so much sense
that is used usually as microwave plate motor, they just added a case and 2 switches to it...
Looks about the same quality as the diverter valve motor assemblies in Baxi & Potterton boilers, all nice and plasticky and deformably bendy when hot... :P
Found another listing for what looks like the same unit but more expensive, says it fits a 75mm (3 inch) pipe, shows it attached to a PVC pipe. In the US home HVAC ducts are 6 inch or larger.
I wonder if a quarter inch ratchet would fit into that. That would be really cool for servicing, as you’re gonna have a ratchet on you.
This actuator came on a 110mm diameter ventilation duct valve that I bought on amazon. I used it to control ventilation in my shower.
As others have mentioned , the motor is similar to many turntable motors from microwave ovens ... there are many uses for these , from dumped ovens ... 1st , mounted at the base of Christmas tree with a long rod to the top can be used for an ever rotating fairy ( ? , hmm ) next 2nd , grip the 3 prong platter rotator adaptor , give it a hefty twist , the motor's rotor will spin at huge speed , and will deliver a painful shock if you are in contact with the power tabs ! ! ... this will light neons / or strings of LEDs , if you go via a bridge rectifier............
Interesting - would be something to see you compare to the USA damper controls that are 24VAC and I gather typically auto return so you energize it to close, de-energize to open (or vice versa) but I think work holding it with motor stall not a switch.
Even when you opened it up I was just expecting to see more inside of it.
As was I.
It's probably profiled round like that to sit on round supply duct typically used here in the USA 6" round
I love the smell of Clive first thing in the morning :)
even before he's had a shower?
:-D
OK.
50,000 cycles must be the specification of the specimen valve controller they copied to produce this cheap version.
I doubt this version can reach 5,000 open /close cycles.
This valve controllers can be in very critical roles.
The 3 Mile Island incident was caused by an open valve that reported to be closed.
Thank you BigClive for the video...
To be fair, the indicator light at TMI was not actually connected to contacts on the valve, it was instead wired in parallel with the solenoid. The light just showed you what had been commanded, not what had actually happened
When these things break I've frequently heard one crank-slipping in the ductwork for weeks. Nobody knows what these are or who to call.
GHOSTBUSTERS?
I'll get my coat
@@awatt You should.... 😆
I purchased an inline damper valve from ebay, knowing it would be fairly Chinesey and indeed it's one of these actuators, by the way it moved I figured it was something fairly simple by design, I've not installed it now but now I see it's a little less of a fire risk than first thought, I think I'll go for it - interesting side note about the non-active terminal being live though, I'll watch out for that - my plan is to use a smart switch to time a bathroom fan and use this to close off any draughts, the manual backdraught shutters flap and bang so are less desirable!
Some fans have a wax motor to open the louvres when in use.
@@bigclivedotcom That's my current method actually, I brought a cheap fan just for it's shutters, snipped out the fan and motor, haha
Wow, I recall this opener from a MRE a while ago! Glad that you keep reusing stuff (as usual).
As for the different duct sizes and "adapter plates": They will just change the black plastic piece you pulled the screws out (the right piece at the end of the video).
I tend to use honeywell...super expensive but supports 0-10v a 20mA loop....torque finger breaking high
Would love to hear you explain a closed loop PID system and tuning tips
Hehehe a job for us process control engineers...I use TIA17 which now supports autotune but I can generally tune a P I loop quicker myself. Honeywell UDC controllers are generally pretty good at autotuning
You should teardown a Siemens GDB actuator next!
Lovely as usual Clive.
Thanks
Bob
England
We have chiller valves that work off a tiny motor like that. They run a vertical screw on plastic gears. They hold up decently however the motor gets very very hot. ⚡️⚡️⚡️
¼ turn or 90deg butterfly valve. Larger version used in water industry under quite high pressures. The opening issues you mention are far more of a problem on gate valves, when often smaller pressure bypass actuators are used. Bit off topic.
Be interesting if one of the switches fails in the closed position, the motor would have sufficient torque to try and keep running and most likely break plastic components before stalling, worth an experiment!
It already stalls against the end to reverse. with a stuck switch the cam would rotate back and forth continuously when that switch was powered.
That looks like the device inside a portable A/C unit I have in the loft of my house. It moves inner directional blades and can be set to "swing" back and forth directing air to the left and right of the unit. For a portable A/C unit it works fine, it was a gift so it's hard for me to justify replacing it until it dies of natural causes as it does the job well enough.
Those tend to use a common geared stepper motor with clutch.
Hmm, you could make a very slow and relaxing windshield-wiper with that.
I'm guessing that the convenient reversing mechanism is employed by the like of Toshiba to use for the oscillating discharge vent function on their aircon discharge heads.
Usually a very common low voltage stepper motor with gears and clutch.
From carburettors, I think the valve is called a butterfly valve.
There's something of a 1970's Hong Kong look about it.
It does look very "Japanese robot".
that really looks like a microwave plate rotator motor, also the speed seems the same... i bet you can copy the design and make one yourself with a microwave one, switches included.... btw, that motor is not only syncronous so mains is precise in frequency and it is as well, and it's also an high voltage generator, if you take a microwave oven one and rotate it by hand it can even light up small fluo tubes, i did once and used too much force and apparently a plastic gear inside lost a pair of teeth LOL, now it jumps
damn i need one of these for my diy fume hood. i have a little window leading outside in the workshop with a door i open when i go to use it, and some duct work inside connected to a bathroom vent fan over my work space. it would be much easier to press a button.
A three way light switch would control this thing, and could power the fan in one of the positions if you really like the simple UI.
Reminds me of the old PAR 36 pinspot scanners...
They make these the same in the USA you either have a spring return/open or powered return/close/open just like the one you have there
I now realize I don't know enough about that little motor because it just flips directions and I don't understand why.
the mechanics flip it by stalling it out. the motor without the physical constraint runs in a random direction because of the position of the rotor, relative to the position of the ac sine wave. that is, leading, it will be clockwise for example and lagging it will be counter-clockwise.
@@fumthings but isn't it the same motor like in the water zoning valves? It looks the same, and those don't flip.
@@dimitar4y it only takes a tiny pawl on the gear to stop it going more than a millimetre "backwards"
@@fumthings oooooh.... so they're mechanically strapped to go forward on those meters. Now I want to see the two side by side
Dude you are a literal idea machine!!!
Always thought there was a Servo motor or something fancy in these things
I don't understand how the motor reverses. Don't these synchronous motors always run one direction?
the ones you are thinking of have a tiny pawl in them that performs the function of stalling and putting it into a single direction. mains mechanical clocks were like that.
I have seen something similar in the fan heater motor that makes it oscillate back and forth, not even with endswitches just senses the motor is blocked and turns the other way. It broke after a couple of months and keeps turning in one direction.
Even this motor looks like it has bad quality limit switches and will probably go bad in a few months of use at best.
I would trust this horrible contraption in an airduct system that is hard to reach in case issues arise.
Usually an oscillating fan uses a bell-crank system and mechanically goes back and forth with the motor always turning only one way.. 🤷🏻
@@davelowets mine is different. It has a 240V 4W motor with only two pins in the input. At first it worked fine but afterwards It wouldn't turn back in one direction and kept grinding the gears.
I opened it and tested it the motor turns both ways.
One of our immediate neighbours buggered off on holiday a week ago, leaving their automated garden irrigation system running. Within 24 hours, it malfunctioned. The timer works, but a valve / actuator doesn’t. So, when it is running every evening, every couple of seconds or so it makes a weird metallic raspy coughing noise - imagine, if you will, a metallic cat coughing up a swarf ball. Every evening until the wee smalls. And they don’t come back for another week, by which time, they will owe us a beer or three.
Your description of how it works sounds very similar to the way some mini-split fan vanes operate.
You could use it to turn a tap on and off. (Don't know why though. LOL.)
How about an expensive actuator from ebay
Is it me or were parts of the video blurry, like a funky encode
Maybe you could use this in a sign, like a waving motion
Hi thanks Clive , gives me an idea!! Many thanks for ALL your videos. From Nr Liverpool UK.
Reminds me of a 3 port zone valve, are you familiar with those? They use a diode to DC lock the motor at mid position and add a little AC resistor to stop the motor becoming magnetized in one direction. Very simple device but quite clever in operation. For so few components they can make the brain work quite hard to work out what is actually going on.
The DC version is even more surprising, it is the exact same setup ... with a DC to AC converter for the motor.
I recently bought a bunch of hvac dampers from aliexpress that have this same actuator and it seems like a much better solution than the honeywell dampers that have a spring loaded clutch on motor that runs all the time when actuated and springs back the damper when disconnected. I think it will last longer and it's 20% the cost of a commercial honeywell damper.
Also bought a 150cm damper and control motor just like this from AliExpress. Better quality than I expected. Damper actually closes fairly well.
Maybe I should look for some zone valve actuators on Aliexpress. I've already had to replace one of my Honeywell ones after about 5 years, which works the same way I think. For as much as those things cost, and as simple as they are, they should never ever ever fail. >:-\
Im starting to not trust in Honeywell products anymore. Their electronic hot water heater controlers were an absolute joke, and caused MANY MANY people to give up and have to replace their hot water heater way earlier than they should have. That wasn't the only product of theirs that had issues either..
Used to call the quick test (LEN) live earth natural
Nice video Clive looks handy that does
i like this guy, quite wholesome
Why does it not reverse as soon as the microswitch is triggered?
well it kind of does but because it is stalled mechanically, not because of the switch since the power is coming from the other switch at the time.
a butterfly valve controller.
great on an exhaust pipe for performance vehicles. (lol)
How about some theory on why it picks a random direction on start up but oscillates there after.
Without watching first - as I do - I will go out on a limb and wonder if these are like the actuators that ElectroBoom just replaced on his hot water heating system. I'll go watch now.
Best film I have seen in years, by far.
But I miss a Clive-hanger hehehehehe
I’m tempted to send you a module that failed in a car of mine. Since we seem to be used to replacing them all the time, I’d be interested in what causes them to fail.
If it's a GM product then it's the plastic bull gear has split and that allows it to pop over the pot metal output shaft splines such that the computer can never drive it to it's stopped calibrated closed position. eBay guy started selling 3D printed bull gears for 20 bucks and made a killing. I got one and it fixed the issue completely, didn't have any other issues with dozens of other GM HVAC door motors so far. North of 80 dollars otherwise.
@@leebarnes655 I had a Chrysler with the same issue. The grinding noise when the car was started or the temp control was moved gave it away.
Hi Clive, love all you videos so thank you - PS do you know your website is not currently working 😞
"Make it as simple as possible but no simpler".
You need more insulation on those live feeds for use at 220/230/240 V ! Those soldered connections are rubbish too. You're meant to wrap the wire around the terminal before soldering.
wonder what the inside of that motor looks like...
Can you please get an electronic sodium ballast and explain it?
Awesome Video big Clive
Works much like the butterfly valve in a carburettor.
I imagine this is not designed for continuous service, that looks like a lot of force being exerted through the gearbox before it stalls and starts to reverse, normally this type mechanism have a small spring 'kicker' to ensure the motor goes in the correct direction, this item looks as if its using the stored backlash torque in the gearbox to throw it back in the other direction.
I'm a bit disappointed there's not a microcontroller involved, since it seems even cheap flashlights and light switches have them anymore. 🙄 Is my genX sarcasm showing? I've got a few synchronous motors in the parts bins, this gives me some ideas of what to do with them! 😁
Nice and simple! Rolfie
Hows it going Clive?
Hope your keeping well mate.
Keep up the great work👍
i could see myself re making this with a 3 printed cover with the sort of micro switches that have the leavers on, in theory it would cut off sooner before being forced against the switches?
You have tools for literally everything 🤓
It ought to be mandatory at the end of these videos that Clive applies far too many volts to whatever he takes apart
But, that's "Photonic Induction's" job, surely? He destroys things that way.
"We're gonna take it, and then we're gonna pop it, just to see how many volts it can handle"......!
@@whitesapphire5865 what did happen to photonic induction?
@@ianhosier4042 I really don't know. I heard mention that he was set to make a reappearance, but no more than that. Just so long as he's alive and well, that's what matters I think.
But, he was taking an awful lot of risks with what he was doing, wasn't he?
@@whitesapphire5865 I do a lot of high voltage testing at work and sometimes it ends with fire and smoke! Needless to say it's all done within an interlocked fireproof room and one sits in a screened control room whilst stupidly high voltages get applied to things - it's mostly testing of high voltage transmission equipment. I wouldnt think of doing such experiments at home.
@@ianhosier4042 Very much so. I used to get the creeps just going under the high tension power lines (45kV?). I couldn't imagine playing around with the sort kit he has in his house. I once destroyed a Fluke multimeter but accidentally connecting it across the output of a microwave oven transformer.
I restore vintage radio and TV etc. and have a healthy respect for the voltages in them. Like you, I couldn't imagine letting high voltages loose in the living room.
What makes the motor reverse direction?
A standard synchronous motor has no specific direction. It starts in a random direction, and if stalled will go in the other direction.
Some simple single direction motors have a mechanism that stalls it if it goes in the wrong direction to make it reverse into the right direction.
Your microwave oven turntable motor is most likely a standard synchronous motor, so it will go in a random direction each time it's used.
@@bigclivedotcom single direction synchronous motors were used in mains mechanical clocks. i think there was a tiny pawl inside to always kick it into the correct direction.
If you can show us the schematic diagram of the internal of the motor it will be nice. Thanks.
I think I've taken a synchronous motor apart on my channel in the past. It's very simple inside.
Microwave plate motor, with endstops??
Huh, super simple and it didn't use power when it isn't moving. Neat!
If you would like to test the 50,000 cycle claim, by my calculations it would require 4 1/4 days of continuous operation. Or does a cycle consist of two runs? Anyway. Even if you choose to be kind and arrange for it a 15% duty cycle that is only a month... or two. You'll want to add a temp cut-off in case it jams up of course, if there is not one already in that motor. At the temps you keep your place this could be a nice little 4W heater 🙂 or to make something move to prevent birds from making a nest where they will poop on your porch. I'd hope this is capable of continuous duty in the event of failure of the control circuitry but its possible that it will cook itself in time at 4W. I fear that it won't take much of a load to chew up the plastic gearing in less than a week.
Hi can you do a video on a cheap Chinese radio how to get it to sweep though channels like the sprirt box that paranormal groups us please it would be interesting how it works and the understanding of it, if its real or fake
If a mfr. was particularly evil, they could make one or more of the self-tapping screws holding the thing together left-hand threads, so that when Clive (or some Clive-like fellow) comes along to disassemble their little goody, he is likely to strip out one or more of the screws, thus teaching the Running Capitalist Dog a lesson he will never forget.
That would cost more to manufacture. Left hand thread screws aren't churned out in millions everyday. Nice idea though. Might be worth the added manufacturing expense just to hear the cursing.