It's very interesting that Maestro (Tullio) Serafin said (not exact quote) "Ponselle, Caruso and Ruffo are the 3 miracles of the century, which are known for the extreme beauty of voice or incredible power" (From Unkown Callas: The Greek Years). I don't know whether he heard Flagstad or not, but if he had, then it means Ponselle might have an even bigger voice, by a tiny stretch. Also this is a comment i found on talk classical forum "The following is the recollection of a commenter on a TH-cam opera aria of Ponselle. Take if for what it is worth but I find it very interesting:Edwin McArthur, Flagstad's accompanist and later conductor, was present during the impromptu backstage singing of Ponselle and Flagstad-and having interviewed him at length, and also having Ponselle's recollections as her biographer, this is what occurred according to both sources: Flagstad was vocalizing in preparation for a rehearsal when Ponselle arrived with Edith Prilik, her secretary, to retrieve some items from the dressing room Ponselle used. Ponselle said to Flagstad, "What a gorgeous voice you have!" Flagstad was flattered and returned the compliment, adding that Ponselle's voice was so large that she could sing the heldensoprano roles if she chose to. Ponselle then asked Flagstad to sing an arpeggio in her "stage voice," after which Ponselle sang the same arpeggio, and then both sang it together. Ponselle told me that Flagstad's voice seemed slightly larger, but McArthur (who played the arpeggio) said that Ponselle's sounded larger than Flagstad's. Both were ardent fans of each other, and Alexander Kipnis (who knew their voices well) explained to me an important facet of Flagstad's voice. "Flagstad had the timbre of a lirico-spinto soprano," he said. "Sometimes her timbre almost gave the impression of a lyric soprano on recordings-but not in the [opera] house. She had a very bright voice-not a warm voice but a bright voice. Her perfect technique and especially her breath control enabled her to project her voice over the largest orchestras. Ponselle's timbre was dark, and her tones were round and warm rather than bright. Flagstad's recordings do not sound like she did on the stage. Ponselle's, especially her 'Vestale' recordings, sound more like she did in the theater but without the overtones that her real voice had." Kipnis added that Ponselle's timbre and style were as unsuited to Wagner as Flagstad's were to Spontini and Bellini. The author was Jim Drake" www.talkclassical.com/threads/casta-diva-contest-by-request-callas-vs-ponselle.70413/page-2
Very interesting. I've heard that story about them vocalising together and in Ponselle's biography she also says Flagstad had a bigger voice. The rest is new to me, I have never thought Flagstad had a bright voice and I've also read a review from the 50s (I'll try to remember who it was) where the author affirmed that she sounded in house just as she sounded on radio (and she sounded VERY dark in the 50s). EDIT: Another thought that occurred to me is would they really have sung this arpeggio as loud as they could? I would doubt it, especially when they were complimented each other mostly on the beauty of their voices. 'Stage voice' also implies singing in a way where the sound would project well in a theatre environment but this might not translate the same way into a smaller room. But either way, I think comparing volume at a level of such great singers is a little silly. They were both obviously huge voices who never had any issues with orchestra or repertoire, what makes them unique is the combination of their size, technique and beauty of tone.
From what I can tell is what was miraculous about Ponselle (Apart from her vocal beauty that we can't tell from the quality of old recordings) is not her talent alone. There are many as great (even greater) sopranos than her like Rosa Raisa and Emmy Destinn. It is the fact that she had a perfectly produced voice and great technique without receiving professional training. Moreover, she was the first great all-American soprano to gain the trust of American opera houses like the Met that was known to favor European talents over American. I remember she once said in an interview how the Met manager at the time of her debut told her if she sings good he will open the doors of the Met to all American singers. About Flagstad. It makes sense to feel that her timbre had a lyrical sweetness as she did start by singing lyric soprano roles like Mimi and Marguerite. Which is why in my opinion she was the best Isolde and Kundry by far; as her portrayal is the most feminine and human (unlike Nilsson who had a metallic voice that best suited Brünnhilde). However, it doesn't make sense to say that her voice was bright. Flagstad's voice kept developing to almost contralto-ish depth and the amplitude of her voice remains the benchmark. There are many close-miked recordings of Flagstad that gives a very close sense of her real voice without theatre effect, like her Haugtussa song cycle recorded in 1940. Her voice was very warn and sweet. Not as dark as Ponselle. But darker than Nilsson and Goltz.
La voz de Ponselle en su voz de cabeza no era oscura, la mayoría de las veces fue por posición de la laringe la oscuridad como pasa por sus notas graves aunque ahí si era oscura por naturaleza. Pero creo que la voz de Flagstad era naturalmente oscura pero con un color más ligero y luego una voz gigante Igual las notas de Ponselle y Flagstad son demasiadas parecidas (B5) y eso es sorprendente.
Size schmize! You people need to put your rulers AWAY! Either you're good or you're not. Size is only a very small component. Lack of musicianship makes it of utmost importance. There is much more to the voice ...like....:. It's the musicality, phrasing, color, control, rate of creasendo and diminuendo, the subtle accents, importance of the words with every vowel matching its color, velvet and thickness, composers intent and dynamic markings, speed of tempo and subtle rubato, and then it's you're own subtle changes and how you project that to the audience.( With a STEADY unwavering sound with a close vibrato.)
Probably the best Kundry ever and one of the few singers who can manage to get me to listen to Parsifal (sorry!). I have heard that these 'high screams' are written in Wagner's directions, but no one seems to do them except Flagstad here, and I think Callas did one of them (but not a D6).
This is excellent!!! .....however, there is No Way either of those Screams can be called singing, nor can you claim them to be Ds Be Serious! It's Drama - It's Great! 😎😎😎
THX a lot, vielen Dank, for uploading on youtube !it is highly appreciated!
She’s the only singer who makes me want to sing Kundry!
It's very interesting that Maestro (Tullio) Serafin said (not exact quote) "Ponselle, Caruso and Ruffo are the 3 miracles of the century, which are known for the extreme beauty of voice or incredible power" (From Unkown Callas: The Greek Years). I don't know whether he heard Flagstad or not, but if he had, then it means Ponselle might have an even bigger voice, by a tiny stretch.
Also this is a comment i found on talk classical forum
"The following is the recollection of a commenter on a TH-cam opera aria of Ponselle. Take if for what it is worth but I find it very interesting:Edwin McArthur, Flagstad's accompanist and later conductor, was present during the impromptu backstage singing of Ponselle and Flagstad-and having interviewed him at length, and also having Ponselle's recollections as her biographer, this is what occurred according to both sources: Flagstad was vocalizing in preparation for a rehearsal when Ponselle arrived with Edith Prilik, her secretary, to retrieve some items from the dressing room Ponselle used. Ponselle said to Flagstad, "What a gorgeous voice you have!" Flagstad was flattered and returned the compliment, adding that Ponselle's voice was so large that she could sing the heldensoprano roles if she chose to. Ponselle then asked Flagstad to sing an arpeggio in her "stage voice," after which Ponselle sang the same arpeggio, and then both sang it together. Ponselle told me that Flagstad's voice seemed slightly larger, but McArthur (who played the arpeggio) said that Ponselle's sounded larger than Flagstad's. Both were ardent fans of each other, and Alexander Kipnis (who knew their voices well) explained to me an important facet of Flagstad's voice. "Flagstad had the timbre of a lirico-spinto soprano," he said. "Sometimes her timbre almost gave the impression of a lyric soprano on recordings-but not in the [opera] house. She had a very bright voice-not a warm voice but a bright voice. Her perfect technique and especially her breath control enabled her to project her voice over the largest orchestras. Ponselle's timbre was dark, and her tones were round and warm rather than bright. Flagstad's recordings do not sound like she did on the stage. Ponselle's, especially her 'Vestale' recordings, sound more like she did in the theater but without the overtones that her real voice had." Kipnis added that Ponselle's timbre and style were as unsuited to Wagner as Flagstad's were to Spontini and Bellini. The author was Jim Drake"
www.talkclassical.com/threads/casta-diva-contest-by-request-callas-vs-ponselle.70413/page-2
Very interesting. I've heard that story about them vocalising together and in Ponselle's biography she also says Flagstad had a bigger voice.
The rest is new to me, I have never thought Flagstad had a bright voice and I've also read a review from the 50s (I'll try to remember who it was) where the author affirmed that she sounded in house just as she sounded on radio (and she sounded VERY dark in the 50s).
EDIT: Another thought that occurred to me is would they really have sung this arpeggio as loud as they could? I would doubt it, especially when they were complimented each other mostly on the beauty of their voices. 'Stage voice' also implies singing in a way where the sound would project well in a theatre environment but this might not translate the same way into a smaller room. But either way, I think comparing volume at a level of such great singers is a little silly. They were both obviously huge voices who never had any issues with orchestra or repertoire, what makes them unique is the combination of their size, technique and beauty of tone.
From what I can tell is what was miraculous about Ponselle (Apart from her vocal beauty that we can't tell from the quality of old recordings) is not her talent alone. There are many as great (even greater) sopranos than her like Rosa Raisa and Emmy Destinn. It is the fact that she had a perfectly produced voice and great technique without receiving professional training. Moreover, she was the first great all-American soprano to gain the trust of American opera houses like the Met that was known to favor European talents over American. I remember she once said in an interview how the Met manager at the time of her debut told her if she sings good he will open the doors of the Met to all American singers.
About Flagstad. It makes sense to feel that her timbre had a lyrical sweetness as she did start by singing lyric soprano roles like Mimi and Marguerite. Which is why in my opinion she was the best Isolde and Kundry by far; as her portrayal is the most feminine and human (unlike Nilsson who had a metallic voice that best suited Brünnhilde). However, it doesn't make sense to say that her voice was bright. Flagstad's voice kept developing to almost contralto-ish depth and the amplitude of her voice remains the benchmark. There are many close-miked recordings of Flagstad that gives a very close sense of her real voice without theatre effect, like her Haugtussa song cycle recorded in 1940. Her voice was very warn and sweet. Not as dark as Ponselle. But darker than Nilsson and Goltz.
La voz de Ponselle en su voz de cabeza no era oscura, la mayoría de las veces fue por posición de la laringe la oscuridad como pasa por sus notas graves aunque ahí si era oscura por naturaleza. Pero creo que la voz de Flagstad era naturalmente oscura pero con un color más ligero y luego una voz gigante
Igual las notas de Ponselle y Flagstad son demasiadas parecidas (B5) y eso es sorprendente.
Size schmize! You people need to put your rulers AWAY! Either you're good or you're not. Size is only a very small component. Lack of musicianship makes it of utmost importance. There is much more to the voice ...like....:. It's the musicality, phrasing, color, control, rate of creasendo and diminuendo, the subtle accents, importance of the words with every vowel matching its color, velvet and thickness, composers intent and dynamic markings, speed of tempo and subtle rubato, and then it's you're own subtle changes and how you project that to the audience.( With a STEADY unwavering sound with a close vibrato.)
@@jimbuxton2187 i don't think we ever said size size is the ONLY important thing. Just simply bringing up info for discussions.
Probably the best Kundry ever and one of the few singers who can manage to get me to listen to Parsifal (sorry!). I have heard that these 'high screams' are written in Wagner's directions, but no one seems to do them except Flagstad here, and I think Callas did one of them (but not a D6).
Phenomenal.
Impressive!
💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💖💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💗💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
Parece que era medio tono más abajo y no era un D6. Imagina a Flagstad, Gertrude y Farrel cantando juntos en sus mejores momentos 😳
First one starts flat but I think still closer to D than C-sharp. Unless you mean the tape is fast? It is at A=442 right now.
@@dramaticsoprano5168 Creo que esta un poco más alto cuando lo escuché en tus videos de sopranos dramáticas, solo eso
This is excellent!!!
.....however, there is No Way either of those Screams can be called singing, nor can you claim them to be Ds
Be Serious!
It's Drama - It's Great!
😎😎😎