ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ย. 2022
- This video is sponsored by Brilliant. Keep exploring at brilliant.org/Truttle1/. Get started for free, and hurry-the first 200 people get 20% off an annual premium subscription.
I recently re-watched Game Theory's video in which they claim to have made a computer in Mario Maker. But is it ACTUALLY a computer? Well, not really. And this video shows why... by proving that addition is not Turing complete. :P
Someone make an ITERATE page on the esolang wiki plz :p
LINKS:
Game Theory's Video: • We Built A Computer in...
Koen's Brainf**k Interpreter written in Thue: esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_i...
MUSIC USED:
Bumbly March and Itty Bitty 8 Bit by Kevin MacLeod
Rogueport Sewers, Doopliss Battle from Paper Mario: TTYD
Snow Mountain from Super Mario 64
SHOWTIME from Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
Bonetrousle from Undertale - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Keep exploring at brilliant.org/Truttle1/. Get started for free, and hurry-the first 200 people get 20% off an annual premium subscription.
Intro by: th-cam.com/channels/nXH9Ls7y4_rL2d4Qv6rT6A.html
Also discord: discord.gg/EKPBjjUc65
YOOOOO TRUTTLE GOT SPONSORED BY BRILLIANT ??? !!!!! CONGRATS !!!!
truttle got sponsored?
bloody brilliant!
no way
Awesome video
Congrats on the sponshorship.
matpat didn't even build the calculator. It's just a popular level he found at some point.
Matpat's system is actually more basic than a pushdown automaton: it's combinational logic. The system doesn't really store state, and just uses half and full adders. The computation takes time ("Which is a no-no in combinational logic") but that's just because the signal is sent at the speed of Mario. The system MatPat has wouldn't be able to do "If the last time the answer was 4, print 'x'" because there is no memory at all that can be written, only inputs and outputs.
Not mat-pat’s system, he found it on the internet
It would actually be quite fun seeing you make a Turing complete thing in Mario maker, plus I’ve never seen someone actually do it
from what i've heard mario maker isn't really turring complete, but it would be if there was infinite space.
There’s a community in Japan that makes Mario Maker calculators, and they managed to make a cyclic tag system in Mario Maker, so it actually is Turing complete!
th-cam.com/video/hd0EtsTUbmg/w-d-xo.html (put on English subtitles for the English translation)
Dunking on Game Theory, my favourite youtube video genre
fun fact: in romanian computer is "calculator" so technically matpat did make a computer
atleast for romanians lol
as a romanian i can confirm this
I mean in English computers are yk things that compute. In mandarin computer is called “electronic brain” tho which sounds pretty badass
Edit: in traditional Chinese I mean. In China they mix the usage of calculators and computers into the same word.
i remember being impressed by this video when it first came out, but looking back having actually learned about computability theory and stuff... wow, like if you just want to do addition on a finite set of inputs you don't even need memory! you can just have the correct answer for every combination of inputs built into the program lol. and if you convert it into a decision problem (by rephrasing it as "do these two numbers from this finite set add to this third one? for example), that's a regular language and you can decide it with a DFA (because every finite language is regular), very much not a proof of turing completeness
Tbh when I uploaded this I was worried I missed something and that addition actually was Turing complete… I am so glad I didn’t mess that up lol
@@Truttle1 Was I just challenged to make addition turing complete? (As long as there's a new custom data type involved it can probably be done)
@@AByteofCode yes you were
@@Truttle1 alright, on it
Be careful with this line of reasoning, though. All real computers (i.e. the actual physical thing you are currently using to read this comment) have a finite amount of RAM, and technically qualify as extremely complicated DFAs because they can only store a finite amount of information. We usually ignore this limitation because you can install more RAM as required... right up until you run out of address space. We usually ignore *that* limitation because, at least on 64-bit platforms, it's stupidly huge, and nobody is really going to run into it.
It’s like saying “We sell big cats”, talking to your customers about owning tigers and leopards, and then selling them a large house cat
paper boat tutorial is my favorite part
Wow, I've never seen a matpat video, but I always assumed that the video was showing a NAND or NOR gate or something. That, plus some handwaving, would have been enough for enough of a rough sketch of turing completeness and "building a computer". In fact this has been done and is considerably easier than the complicated-but-wrong demonstration that he seems to have done instead. Also, Victor tran hasn't commented yet.
i swear the random number thing is so right everybody considers it "omg kaxor mode enabled 😎"
MatPat needs to see this. It'd be great
a byte of code???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
@@moltony yes that would be me
Holy crap, that intro is amazing!
Edit: Wait, Truttle got a sponsorship? Holy crap!
(also i commented before victor tran)
Hi, I'm Victor Tran. Nice to meet you!
this intro is so sick it was so unexpected
i like how very complex programming languages can be less than turing complete, but then "yeah you have like six variables and you do basic math with them over and over" is turing complete
i've also been 16 forever in a time loop , eidex , it's okay , you get used to it ^ ^
I was going to suggest instead of using a pushdown automata for addition to built an adder circuit using logic gates. This way you could show a non turing complete "automata" could do the operation without memory, because the only thing it needs is to read the inputs once and make operations based around it. Then I realized that was exactly what it was going on with the input on the PDA.
9:00 Finite state machines *can* actually store permanent data. It stores the turing machines state.
Any IRL computer can be represented by a finite state machine, since they have finite memory.
You can tell immediately based on matpat’s tone that his videos are garbage. It’s that algorithmic tone that sounds the same way you’d expect the voice of “you won’t believe this one weird trick!” would sound.
tbh I kinda think I have the same tone lol
MatPat himself said himself that addition wasn't Turing Complete.
@Truttle1 correct me if i’m wrong, but using piston feedtapes and the new Copper Blubs, Minecraft is now Turing Complete! (Make a turing machine, using the copper bulbs (which are toggleable with a redstone pulse) and rotate them around with a piston feedtape)
Minecraft has been Turing complete I believe since at least redstone was added
Oh wow, youre about a year older than me! That's pretty cool. I hope I can get myself involved with content creation on more technical topics like you do. Not on this account though, its old and has stuff from when i wanted to be an animator, lol. From the cartoons you make i assume you like animation and technical computer stuff, so you keep on living my dream man.
these are the real questions we should be asking
It would probably help if i knew exactly what a "push down automata" is. Ill be looking it up anyway. Even though it feels unnecessary to explain things like "why isnt this turing complete", I would say its necessary because even though ive programmed (in lua) I dont have to directly deal with a stack (since its a higher level language) or many other low level things. So explaining things is really helpful since half of my knowledge is just stuff ive picked up from youtube videos lol (ive never had a formal computer science course. This video has done a great job explaining what a "turing complete" system is).
stacks aren't even low level. They're just a type of data structure. You can make a stack in Lua by just making an array and tracking its length in a separate variable, using the length as the index. length + 1 in Lua's case since it's 1-indexed. Stacks are useful for a lot of classes of problem, like tree navigation, history tracking, etc, and you shouldn't avoid them just because you think they are "low level".
On that note, I disagree with the usage of "low level" in general, because it doesn't really say anything about a language and is entirely subjective. The only time low level is useful is when it's used to measure portability. For example, Assembly language is low level because porting it to another architecture is not easily done. You can't just take 6502 assembly and expect an 8086 assembler to understand it. You'll have to practically rewrite the program for the 8086 platform. A C program, on the other hand, can be ported by simply porting the compiler. You port the compiler and standard library, and you port all of C. C is a high level language. It is abstracted from the hardware to enough of a degree that you can feasibly port a program written in it to different architectures without having to change any code. In fact more often than not, when something in the code has to be changed to port it, or there have to be preprocessor macros to switch on the environment it's compiling under, that has to do with operating system details rather than hardware details.
You may notice that under this definition, pretty much only assembly language and machine code are low level while everything else is high level, and that's a good thing. Programming languages have other, more useful traits and attributes than how abstracted they are from the hardware, and those attributes describe these languages far better than "X is a high level language". C is a multi-paradigm static weakly typed unmanaged language whereas Lua is a multi-paradigm _dynamic_ weakly typed _managed_ language. The dynamic makes a big difference as it means types are checked at runtime rather than at compile time. It means Lua's more likely to be implemented as an interpreter/JIT and is more likely to be slower because of all the runtime memory safety checks it has to do to enable dynamic typing. Managed means its memory is managed automatically, whereas C does not manage memory, and leaves the task up to the programmer. This alone makes C a lot more difficult to program in for those who are not used to it, but also a lot more efficient since it isn't having to, for example, check bounds at runtime and can just _assume_ that the programmer did it correctly. Static typing + manual memory management is a killer combo.
"Hard to program in" is probably the worst metric to measure whether something is "high or low level", because difficulty is both subjective and relative. C is only difficult because you have to learn a new skill (memory management) and a new class of obstacle (undefined behavior) to use it effectively. You have to learn how to use pointers and procure and clean up memory, and you have to learn the subtle ways that it can blow up in your face. To most novices, UB is a _problem_ that makes C unwieldy and unfairly difficult to program in. But to C programmers, UB is one of C's greatest assets, allowing the compiler to make assumptions and optimize their code better than they can. All they have to do is avoid doing the things the standard leaves undefined, which comes with experience. But like I said, memory management is a _skill._ One that makes you a better programmer regardless of what language you're programming in. Just because JavaScript is managed, for example, doesn't mean you can't leak memory in it. You should set your references to null when you're done with them so the GC can more effectively do its job.
here is an example of a stack implemented in Lua. Very basic, no encapsulation. Just the data structure and its methods.
array = {}
array_len = 0
function array_push(v)
array[array_len + 1] = v
array_len = array_len + 1
end
function array_pop()
array_len = array_len - 1
return array[array_len + 1]
end
It's not as efficient as the stack you work with in assembly since it's using Lua data structures, but while stacks are fast, we don't use them for speed per se. Like I said in the earlier reply, the stack data structure is useful for solving various classes of problem. Knowing how and where to implement and use data structures is an important tool to have in your toolbelt.
"In fact, I'm a huge proponent of designing your code around the data, rather than the other way around […] I will, in fact, claim that the difference between a bad programmer and a good one is whether he considers his code or his data structures more important."
-Linus Torvalds, on the design of git
Random numbers in system font... Those only show up if you like print model weights of a any deep learning model. You know - completely not computer code but actually "intelligence" that's extremely difficult to understand for humans.
Rlly like the fact that obfuscate has creaturey saved as “cool guy” in his contacts
14:37 it's funny i used to write programs like this in middle school AND my name is jacob but this part didint shock me too much lol
I guess you were who it was for lol
Quick question with two stacks, can you pop a value over the two stacks? Like with one stack
adding numbers means it's turing complete? By that logic, HQ9+ is turing complete, because the `+` program "increments the accumulator"
before victor train i hope
7:23 these speed clones are getting out of hand
Wow, you got a sponsorship! Congratulations!
i forgot his vid was about making a computer.
When I saw this thumbnail I thought the video was "Is Game theory turing complete?"
10/10 would watch again
in the example with the push down automaton, to assess whether there's the same number of a's b's and c's,
couldn't you add to the stack twice the amount of a's, and then pop for each b, and then pop for each c? if at any moment you need to pop from empty stack, they are not equal, if you have any a's leftover, the three are not equal
If you had 5 a’s, your idea would work for 7 b’s and 3 c’s.
A pushdown automaton built like this would accept strings whose number of b's and c's adds up to twice the number of a's (|b| + |c| = 2|a|), so it would accept strings like
'aaaabbbbbbbc'
If matt pat finds a way to do subtraction on it, We are screwed.
As a Jacob, I can confirm that is my code. I’m sorry mr.tutel
In the intro, the programs are:
print "Truttle1 Game Theory Intro Thing" in Brainf__k
truth-machine in Rockstar
print "Hi!" in >
print "Hello world!" in COBOL
print "Hello world!" in Length
brainfudge
Happy Modern Trut is a cute graphic, hopefully it shows up more.
mario maker is interesting because if you know the first thing about mario maker and the second thing about computer science it's pretty obvious that it IS in fact possible to build a computer in mario maker - like, surely you can make a nor gate, and it's all downhill from there
edit: oh wait memory lol. obviously not a huge problem for a game like mario maker but also a universal gate is insufficient
I should probably point out at 8:54 it says 'fininte' instead of finite.
9:38 put all the as on stack, remove as much as there are b's, do the same, but replace a with c.
You have already passed the a’s, and the input tape only goes one way
i dont know why i didn't have notifications on! sorry for missing so many videos!
Oh hey, MatPat is stepping down from Game Theory, along with some of his friends. Here's to hoping that whoever replaces MatPat is at least as good as him and better than his staff. It's still going to feel bad to see him go though, but eh. When you've got responsibilities, you've got responsibilities.
8:48 Ah yes, a fininte state machine
how to get cancelled 101
so what your saying is my adding and subtracting calculator in minecraft is more of a computer than his just adding
It’s still not a computer but yea i guess so
12:24 welcome to the world of benevolent people being actually not benevolent people and doing stuff just for profit
This scene at 14:34 hit me hard because in my comp sci course in school, i would frequently write stuff like this in my notebooks and one day my teacher decides to inspect my notebook, find out that i wrote something like this, and gives me detention. I would like to add a royal fuck you to my 10th grade comp sci teacher for being a snowflake.
But is your name Jacob tho?
@@Truttle1 almost, its Pedro. There was a Jacob in that class so if he were watching thr video he eouldve been spooked
this video is a fever dream
also inb4 vic
Timestamp to end of sponsor 8:33
oh you watch this channel too
Love your stuff man.
Honestly, Game Theory was once really good. But it's apparent how much they just rush stuff in order to produce content in time these days. Quality and actual research or full understanding of the topic covered is secondary now...
There are still videos like Mario is Mental, or Dory faking her short-term memory to survive in the wild. RedQueenMiku with some numbers that I don't remember did some debunking videos with him, and I've watched them all, I would like your opinion though because I would like to have a variety of sources on MatPat's older videos, because I can't really trust my own interpretations.
so many people build "computers" that just add 2 numbers its not that much of an achievement. literal marbles can add because its as easy as combining a marble pile of size a and a marble pile of size b which gives a pile of size a+b. subtraction is more interesting, marbles cant really do that
Wow, That's cool, the intro says something
what the heck is that empty argument to that ternary operator at 3:50
Idk it was HackerTyper :p
It's a GNU C extension which implicitly takes the first operand as the second operand if the second operand is omitted, effectively acting as the Elvis operator. It's equivalent to `nblocks ? nblocks : 1` here since it's basically used as shorthand, but where the first operand is an expression it avoids evaluating the expression twice.
@@SCLakitu oh hey that's neat! glad I asked
great vid
Why everyone is moving around so much?
Found this while playing Mario Maker. Cool
pretty good videos, I was looking for the definitive word on Mario Maker computers for a long time, BUT the animation loops all made me seasick
However, if you add negative numbers, multiplication, arrays & looping in the mix with addition, math becomes Turing complete!
Maybe add return statements too...
you dont even need arrays OR functions!
(see the esolang "blindfolded arithmetic" by ais523, it only has variables, math, and looping everything again and again)
on the pushdown automaton thing, can't you just go back and compare the bs and the cs
no because that's an arbitrarily accessing it
e🅱️ic intro btw, and nice work on the video
Ultimately I think the tone of the video couldve been more educative rather than a Gotcha. You did turn it around at the end yeah but the joke kinda wore thin around the While True Penis mark.
No shade tho.
Its only a computer if its turing-complete!
Imma be honest, I was actually interested in what you had to say in this video, and was curious to learn why you have critiques.
But the way you diminish the audience by being a “character” every step of the way is making me….not feel so inclined to keep watching. It feels like you’re constantly saying “You’re dumb”if you don’t know this” and I don’t like education approached from that angle. ><
Sorry, that’s just my outsider perspective. I’m sure it’s a great video, but I can’t bring myself to watch more of it.
I like the music. :)
Hi Victor!
hi victor!
Hello all!
now make a mario maker turing machine
da matty patty failed
Before Victor Train
The Algorithm™ has once again blessed me with another cool new channel to enjoy.
subscribers++;
Looking forward to that RPG Maker video!
//imma add another one
subscribers++;
I understood literally nothing but good video.👍
An agonizing minute = ? minutes
Damn throwing shade at matpat
How to do the abc problem on a push town automaton
Add the amount of a into the stack
Add the amount of a into the stack
Subtract with b
Subtract with c
aaaaabbbbbbbccc
I *suspect* it's Turing complete.
It is, cyclic tag systems were made in it
Sponsorships!
Are you computer theory or truttle1
Ah, ruined his logo.
Matpat the clickbait theorist strikes again!
Great video as always
3:34 Condescending, but funny.
Nov. 2, 2ACV
Truttle1 drama!1!!!!11!!1!1
Dam we the same age
Darn, I am not in before Victor Tran.
Why do you sound sarcastic? Code is TOTALLY when random numbers in system font. However, you forgot to mention that the numbers must be green.
made in 2:00 pm edt
before victor
Truttle1 receive: You as a subscriber...
You receive: Very good info about computer etc...
What do you want?
Me? Of course I will subscribe him!!!
One more subscriber for you!!!
CSS isn't turning complete yet it can do addition lol.
html is not turing complete
css is not turing complete
html+css is turing complete
@@notwithouttext what can just HTML and CSS do that makes it turning complete?
@@Leonartist ok, i checked again, you still need human input (although it doesn't need to do complex actions). someone made rule 110
@@notwithouttext oh wow
rpg maker 2003 is amazing
What about NAND?
depends what you do with it. there's an interesting esolang called ferNANDo which mainly has NAND, and can make a lot of programs, but it is not turing complete
probably because it can't have infinite variables
veri cool
I prefer the esolang content over this.
here before victor
i commented before victor tran
I commented before Victor Tran
Mario Maker is easily not Turing complete with the simple fact that any program (level) must halt after 500 seconds.
ggez now give me 16M subs
commented before victor tran
bvt