He explains what I felt during my Ayahuasca journey.... I came to this "place" without time and space, a place in which there was nothing and everything at the same time. Just eternal oneness, there was no beginning, so there couldn't be an end. I immediately went like "Aaaaaah!" and knew from the bottom of my heart: this is the only TRUTH, this is eternity, and "thought": how could I ever have forgotten about this place? How could I ever have believed in time? It seemed so natural and well-known, so pure. Ever since that day it puzzled me and I am trying to get back there. Thank you for this inspiring talk Mr. Wilber. I read one of your books too and appreciate your work!
I think you forgot about it because our experience here for the most part is dualistic, being deceived by our senses. Perhaps we need this experience to learn what we cannot learn without it (pain, struggle, contrast) and to use that to contrast the against the other dimension to gain knowledge and to truly know love.
Same. There is, for me, also an inescapable truth. I must use words and images to describe the experience, but any description at the same time corrupts and distorts the experience. You can only know by experiencing.
I can't believe how many people have been commenting on Ken Wilber's shirt interpreting that it is an expression of his narcissism and ego-centrism. All your comments are a projection of yourself. It is easy to see the splinter in another person's eye and miss the log in yours. I think the shirt shows that he feels comfortable in his own being and he does not care what all of you judging people think about him.
Not to mention what he looks like now. Due to a rare illness he has lost all of his muscle. His previous fitness probably helped him stay alive when he was very sick. I don't know how much longer he has left but I hope he gets to stick around for awhile because of his (and my) belief that modern spirituality is in the process of vast change.
It's very interesting to hear Ken's opinion on the subject, I have a lot of respect for the man. But the bottom line is he has never taken ayahuasca, he's talking about something he has no first hand experience of.
Just listen to the testimony of both. However, the meditater that would attain such states is rare. combining both would be interesting, but it is against the vinaya.
Wonderful QA Session. I have experienced Ayahuasca back in 2004 in Ecuador. First of all it was very important by the questioner to mention that Ayahuasca can be considered as 'food' instead of having been qualified as 'drug'. Read Terence McKenna 'Food of the Gods' to see how volatile these definitions actually are. Now, how Wilber replies to the question is really great. So much precise definitions, so much humor, so much human and humane understanding, so much real intelligence ... this video is a must-see for the truth seeker, I believe.
A lot of spiritual development movement(s) are just based on moments of "identification" with someone espousing understandings that already exist in many sources and people. It's just that for you, that explanation of it, that way, at that time and place meant something to you. For somebody else it meant nothing, but re-explained differently a week later, with a different "guru, it meant everything. Wilber here is no different. Most eastern traditions caution us on drug experiences not because they may be illegal or physically harmful but simply that they are experiences of the mind and mind in the end is the problem. However, those not versed in many traditions or even those who have heard this before simply here it in a version that works for them and wow, they are amazed. Some priests you can talk to. Some doctors you don;t trust but other do. In this way there remains a market for people selling the ancient understandings in new age bottles. And there are enough bottle buyers to allow the seller to pay the rent. Twas ever thus.
DoctorShrink Thanks, what you write makes really sense to me. Very well observed. But don't you think that we as humans are always subjective in the sense that we don't, at least most of the time, have enough objective perception for seeing the truth behind the messenger? In other words, does the messenger not have, or should he or she not have, a personal tint in bringing over the original, and often, age-old message? Again in different terms, should we not value that personal vibration that a good and smart messenger (philosopher) brings to the message? I go the way you suggest, I do read original texts, now for example for New Thought and Prosperity, 20 authors starting with Benjamin Franklin in 1758 (The Way to Wealth). I could as well just read Louise Hay or Catherine Ponder who distilled that wisdom teaching in their own ways. Each author adds another color to the spectrum. Most people may just watch 'The Secret'-and that's also a good way to get the message. At least it's a good starting point for further research … By the way, I do not recommend Ayahuasca to anybody. It's really dangerous and was for me, a horror trip. And for finding truth, no psychedelics are needed. It was however good to quench that thirst, to get off that curiosity that was so burning hot and that was after all an illusion … Practically speaking (for myself), I see more enlightenment coming from good old prayer ...
***** I agree it's probably fine for the average vanilla flavoured guru to peddle their own ":version" of the ancient traditions for the average seeker willing to pay an entry fee (and not abandon their life in devotion or sign over their house) to a workshop/talk. But when they create "The Theory" or "The Teachings" that will save the human race and now is the dawn of their new age then it's time to yawn and say "puhleeze". Even Eckhart Tolle is doing this with his belief that we are entering a new time of hope and change now that Oprah Winfrey has swelled his ego and his bank balance. Pity since Tolle was a truly humble seeker who has been thru his is own dark night of the soul and is a good communicator of eternal ideas/messages. But most of them lose it when they get a bit of attention and the ego inflates even beyond their ability to control it. Wilber is no different. Grand theories about things that ultimately cannot be theorised about. Integrations of ideas so distant that uniting them loses all detail, meaning and correctness. But it's THE theory of everything that only he could create and only his theory/ideas/concepts can save us all. Phew! Lucky for humanity that he came along just in time.... I guess it pays the rent and keeps him off the streets but pity the poor fools who swallowed this snake oil for so long.
DoctorShrink [i'm replying to a comment from a different thread -- no reply option on that one] Tolle does seem genuine. Wilber is an intellectual with an 'interest' in the spiritual. The fact we can't name many inspiring teachers in a connected age that should be delivering them in abundance is I think curious. Are we idealising past teachers? Is mankind on a downward path? Anyho. I agree the old ones are the good ones.
Ayawaska is a teacher, just like Ken. But it is not a human teacher, it is a plant teacher. It is also a medicine because it heals you, specially your perception of life just like a spiritual teacher does. Ayawaska will point out at the same thing Ken just said. She has pointed that out to me, BUT it will also point out things that no book, no human can ever tell you, and it will do so in a way that is far more intelligent, clear and loving than any human teacher. Don't deny this if you have not experienced it. It is not for every one and it is not essential for your realization of self at all, but it is communion with something much more universal. Why not have such experience? why not have such enrichment?
If you meditate enough and practice right you can experience anything that some external psychedelic could provide. After all, even the trip is in your head, if it lasts long or short, good or bad, this is all defined by the mind and it's all fleeting.
i agree 100% with you. the "problem" is that most of the users want to tap into a full psychedelic experience, sometimes combined with music, festivals etc and simultaneously live a "normal" working life next to it. Inside that setting it is very hard to keep a strong and believing mind, practice and meditate every day to eventually have a psychedelic experience, when there is the shortcut of drugs.
I agree, although I suspect that drinking Aya may very well speed the process up. You might be able to get an amount of "work" done in one Aya ceremony that may take you months or years of meditation to do.
Iv practiced meditation for over 12 years, did some 10. 7, 5 day retreats, lived in a Vipassana center, teach it, etc. And I am also born in SAmerica, have done Aya, San Pedro, Psylocibine. In long retreats I had the experience of walls melting, seeing colors around people, clarity of mind, entering nothingness, universal expansion, etc… The plants on the other hand are a very different experience. Not in ANY way similar to meditation. One is actually having a real encounter with an enlightened plant consciousness. Try that for a teacher once! it will complement your understanding of life. id say 12 day retreat with Aya equals 5 years of meditation as far of ego dissolving. listen to testimonies. meditation is my way, i have to say that. but vow in respect for the teacher plants and come to them when i need spiritual healing.
Santiago Palacios Yes, and might I add that meditation is probably a much gentler way of ego dissolving, whereas Ayahuasca can be a brutal ordeal. On my 2nd ceremony I literally felt like I went through a 2.5 hour exorcism. My head didn't spin around, but it was physically and emotionally strenuous to say the least..
I have never fully recovered from my psychedelic experience of ten years ago, but it set me on fire as far as spiritual growth goes. My evolution has been pretty nasty though, even hellish and suicidal at times. Proceed with caution. There are much easier ways to grow spiritually.
valar changes the truth so much. the younger you do it the better I feel but even to this day 32 years later still remains one of my most profound experiences.
valar can you explain a bit more? Didn't you prepare right? Wat where the after effects? And how come that it took so long to recover, was it inadequate support/guidance? What could you have done differently?
@@Randomdude-i8x Hi, I hope you see my reply five years later :) I'll give you the full story. It is long but contains a lot of useful information. I could have done many things differently. It's a Murphy's Law story. Everything went wrong from the start. I was completely uneducated on marijuana and had zero tolerance but by dad gave me eight (!) pot brownies with vague instructions that did not say to only take one. You never, ever give someone with an anxiety disorder - I have OCD and nearly lifelong chronic anxiety - such a powerful substance with no guidance! Anyway I ate three brownies in the space of an hour while camping, with a useless friend who scared me even more instead of helping me out and slept through the whole ordeal. It became psychedelic. I suffered a hellish trip for four-hours in the hospital and was given nothing to calm me down. (?) I saw my personality as a house of cards, a huge void below me that could devour the universe and felt energies that could tear galaxies in half. When I came down, I had depersonalization disorder. I didn't feel real and the world didn't either. Many panic attacks. The OCD went from bad to monstrous. After an exhausting year and a huge panic attack, I was given Valium at the hospital with no warning that it was addictive. My doctor refilled the prescription with 100 pills. Another wtf moment. I was addicted in two weeks and my doc fucked up everything to do with me getting help ASAP. That panic attack had also triggered kundalini syndrome, but the Valium blocked the smooth processing of the energy until it built up such a head of steam that my addiction massively spiralled to control it and the pounding energy and constant fight or flight made weaning off the Valium extremely difficult. In fact, 14 years later, I'm still taking Valium as kundalini syndrome has destroyed all six of my heroic attempts to get off the drug. The Valium clogged up my brain and made spiritual progress much more difficult because my brain literally couldn't process my efforts or I would get treated for my obsessions but the fragile state of my brain would retraumatize me and I'd be dealing with the same friggin obsession popping back up a month later. The kundalini is finally settling down now but it has meant no relationship, no children, no career, my youth being stolen from me and now I'm financially dependent on my parents after 16 fucking years of trying everything. If they were not wealthy I would be in a group home or dead of suicide. I still have deep and sickening existential fear all the time that is exhausting. It's locked in my stomach slightly below the belly button i.e. the core of the Self. It feels like a lump harder than a diamond containing vast clinging to the Self. I believe I've burned off an incredible amount of karma that I've been told and feel involves repeated past life torture, sexual abuse, murder and brutal execution. Great physical pain, fear of pain, fear of fear and existential terror. Whoever comes after me should have a much easier go. If I could do it all over again with the knowledge I have now, my path would be much easier to get to the same place. I would do a moderate amount of psychedelics in a controlled setting, never take Valium or any other benzodiazepine except in a momentary crisis. (Ironically I never got a benzo in the ambulance or the hospital in the very moment when such drugs would have been most useful. A few pills would have calmed me down immediately and probably spared me most of the trauma from the trip and therefore my addiction). Perhaps psilocybin. I would use neurofeedback as soon as I started my spiritual path, it was already very good back then. Get therapy. I would work with the excellent energy healers I have now - one is a hidden yogi and scary enlightened. All this help would rid me of OCD and anxiety in a matter of years, as well as my chronic back pain. I would meditate an hour or two a day. I would slowly get better at using psychedelics to boost my development. I can't imagine where I wold be now. I strongly reject the notion that suffering is 'necessary' for spiritual growth. It doesn't ring true to my experience and besides it is a dualistic proposition. If you have a lot of it, okay, here you are, deal with it head on as Buddhism teaches. But that doesn't mean suffering is necessary. ( E.g.: what kind? How much? For how long? Etc.) I already had masochistic tendencies before my experience and felt I deserved to be punished for my failures in life, and the trip strengthened the masochism hideously and was an obstacle for me in realizing drugs were blocking my progress. Neo-Advaita teachers and specifically Adyashanti really hurt my search for help because of their 'suffering is purifying' stance, despite Adyashanti having never really suffered in his life. All of Buddhism is inundated with this idea, probably because back in the day spiritual progress was mostly brute force and insane willpower and tremendous sacrifice and very slow and stagnant innovation in skillful means. It's all they knew so they assumed it must always be like that. So did all of humanity. Today, so much has improved but many practitioners become masochists as I did, rolling in their suffering because they think it's good for them and waiting for a breakthrough that never happens because they aren't smart about their path. Mental health developments are coming along fast now, such as rigorous psychedelic studies and technological advances. I have excellent healers, I do neurofeedback and have a brainwave entrainment device and I'm preparing for ketamine treatment. There's even a hospital near me that does focussed ultrasound for deep brain issues like OCD. So my hopes are high even if I'm not in a happy place at present.
@@squamish4244 wow that is an insane story! And it reached me! Thanks for posting. What a ride, good to hear that you are getting back on track. That must have been an really intense bad trip you've had. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong in the most destructive way. Do you consider regular therapy and EMDR? I agree that suffering itself is not growth. But for growth, you commonly need to endure some (or big) suffering. Are you familiar with the asthon manual? To get of benzo dependency. Might be helpful.
Depends which books you read. If you are looking at a simple version of the 8 circuit model you are right, but read 'The game of LIfe' and you have a full rendition of the theory. It contains phylogenetic and ontogenetic stages as well as ecological niches, very similar to Wilbers. The drug trigger aspect is very useful as it reveals a relationship between plants and the human brain/evolution. From opiates, alcohol, sex/Television to high end psychedelics. In many ways making it a far more observed and modernly useful model. Wilbers model is passively derived from passive meditiation and predominantly vast reading of Eastern texts - dubious in how well they suit the Western culture. Therefore again Leary's model is superior and culturally accurate. Seem you have only scraped the surface for the Eight Circuit Model and have taken that to be knowing it. Do the appropriate reading and see for yourself.
What is music when there is no one to listen? Ken point's to the wisdom of the buddha, who experienced that all things come and go. Every zenmaster will tell you that the experience itself is not it... Who's is listening to the music? Who is receiving the beauty, in who does the music come alive? Ayahuasca can take you deep inside and show you the true nature of consciousness. If you know what to look for! In my opinion Ken is very clear on the subject.
Hi Pamela, Ayahuasca can give you a chance to experience the realms of the Divine and experience in the same time that their plays of the mind. That doesn't diminish the experience. I displays the vast dimensions of the mind. It can show you the dance of Shakti, the experience itself and Shiva, the never changing unborn witness. What Ken greatly points out, is that the Ayahuasca experience itself isn't it. Lot's of people get consfused, it can keep you busy for aeons, blinded by the light!
The only problem here is that the witness is unverifiable. Without objects there can be no validation of a witness. One would require faith in order to believe the timeless "i am" being. And having faith is unscientific.
check out rupert spira he does in depth deduction of reductionistic view in non dual fashion and help u to come to that place in very subtle and simple way
@@TheRaNetwork it begins by feeling that you are separated entity from the rest of creation, feeling of isolation usually comes from a survival instinct and sense that you are threatened against scary forces in the world (and this development is normal, in the begging you associate your mother as safety zone etc), so the ego (which is just an abstract notion or pointer not the real thing, by which we usually refer as illusory you - separated self) is in business of growing and advancing itself, categorization, division, constantly comparing with others (that presumably don't have anything to do with your self) and to give you a feeling of importance and safety
@@TheRaNetworksince im prolly younger than you are but after some expansive psychedelic and other experiences and huge life turmoil I'm trying to pick up pieces and fit then in the right place, I'm currently in the process of accumulating and going through different perspectives and i resonated the most with taoism and contemporary non-dual advaita in regards to 'waking up', but what strikes me the most with wilber's approach is trying to get as many perspectives on the table and finding the common ground in all of it, in the end no model or teaching will lead you to your core, the beauty and terror of it is that you need courage and immense earnestness to dive into your-self alone, only to find the inside and outside are all the same, but that is topic for some other day as terrence mckenna would like to point out your perception is primary (in a sense its the only thing you are sure of) so to never abandon it to the cause or some imaginary authority, Krishnamurti was big on that one too approaching it from slightly different angle
red eyes I major in psychology. psych not exist form of theory or cognition system by brain active. ultimately psych can exist form that discuss what i feel it. may be Ken didn't know about psych but he can discuss about his feeling. so Ken actually doing psychological work.
Not necessarily. It depends on how you understand Music. If you have a 5 minute musical score . . . and between minute 2 and 3 no instruments actually play . . . is the Music silenced between minute 2 and 3 (?) No. The instruments are silenced . . . but the Music continues throughout.
Can anyone tell me what could happen if I go on this order of brain and spiritual stimulations , first I start with alcohol as an any teenager , then a certainly age start with THC , now im in mrooms once in a while , but I'm in research so about ayahuasca , but after that would like to research and go for monoatomic gold , besides of all of read and research that I did , about cleaning and declassified of my pineal gland , meditation etc , and if nobody knows what about monoatomic gold I recommend to read Zachariah stiching books
I feel like Ken is about to pick up two mini guns and start wailing away at the walls lol. What is he wearing? hahah jk its good to see him relaxed and just speaking layman. It may be the first time, I was able to understand what he is saying for more than 10 seconds at a time. I used to see his philosophical aka hieroglyphic youtube talks. lol I found his knowledge here extremely useful! He is giving a direct pointer to the consciousness that is ever present regardless of any seeking or experimentation with "other states". It is accessible and free for everyone! I love that he focused on that.
I can relate to what he's talking about extremely well here. The oneness, timelessness, and active participation with the divine that I experienced on mushrooms is what really stuck with me, and I strive to remember that lesson every day!
I don't think he said he was all knowing or that he has ever taken psychedelics. He spoke about observations he had about individuals path to grow spiritually.
I was wondering if I should try ayahuasca realising what ever happened it is an experience, no matter how profound it may be it is another experience. The very motive on my part is to experience something.It changes nothing for the witness I am. Thank you for the clarity.
To whom it may concern: If you believe you have something insightful or enlightening to say, then why not just say it and be done with it? Surely, that would serve everyone far better than taking every opportunity to snipe at Wilber.
I'm amazed by some of these idiotic comments about his muscles, saying he can't be spiritual because he exercises his body. People who sit and judge another's spiritual life should look at their own. The more you are in touch with that, the less you look down your nose at others. The less you are in touch with that, the more you compensate for it by looking down your nose at others. Wilber is not a guru, nor claims to be. His focus is on an academic approach at looking at the teachings and practices of many traditions and disciplines the world over and positing a integral theory of them tied into developmental models. His insights into these areas are not based on meditation or spiritual practices, and therefore such judgments about how spiritual he is or isn't is irrelevant. I however respect his mind, and his sincerity and have little doubt as to his personal spiritual life. But that is irrelevant to the content of the information he presents.
If you think that those who pay attention to the superficial then you must also be superficial. It DOES matter. Mother Theresa was selfless. She didn't care if her buttocks were saggy. Those attending gymns are usually not just health seeking. If Wilbur was then he doesn't need to be wearing a singlet to display it. Yeah I could just see Mother Theresa in lycra and doing a muscle pose.
No, it doesn't matter. Keith Johnsen is right, dont judge and be happy, because every path this world offers is right and worthy to explore or it wouldn't exist. The world doesn't become a better place by people following a certain path that is considered "right". The world gets better when it's populated by people who are happy because they do the things they want to do and they're proud of their individuality. These people have realized that when you're in peace with yourself you have no reason to be angry (or judging. being jealous etc) at anybody. Simple in your case: You probably don't have bulging biceps and you share a misconception with millions of men that this fact will somehow influence your lifeexperience in a negative way (hell even I think like that). Over time you develop some negative emotions towards bodybuilders, your ego starts to defend your "weak body" by judging those people as "underdeveloped minds" and by creating arguments like "i'm a spiritual man therefore not concerned with building up my biceps" . These are all concepts, created by you, determined by you. And you will fit every other human being into those concepts. That's why the image of Ken Wilber, combining spirituality and bulging biceps, creates conflicts in you and motivates you to write such comments.
novusvoss Please spare me the amateur psychoanalysis. It's ridiculous. Millions of people worldwide are unhappy with the human condition- even when they have all the privileges of the first world. They seek answers and people like Wilbur peddle very poor abstract theorizing which is internally self contradictory. That is they use thoughts/ideas/notions/concepts/categories to describe what is indescribable in terms of thoughts/ideas/notions/concepts/categories. That is his point in this video i.e. drugs are an experience of the mind and not part of the absolute. Nevertheless Ken makes good money describing the undescribable with his version of "hierarchies" (yawn) of spiritual growth (as if a category even applies to the absolute). Meanwhile superficial fools like yourself will accept that a 3 year old can talk about nuclear fission with credibility and a gymn junkie like Wilbur can talk about "ultimate truth" while he's fixate on how ripped his abdominals are. And NO!! All paths in this life are not equal and acceptable just because they are possible. I doubt a victim of a pedophile or the nazi holocaust would agree on a "hey, live and let live" approach to life like you. Some things are not really acceptable. Just ask those descendants of the slave trade.
DoctorShrink You really haven't read Wilber, have you? Wilber very much understands the "map of the terrain is not the terrain". Furthermore, he does not believe all paths are equal. If you read him, that should be obvious. He is constantly going after postmodernist thought like that. What's more, how do you know why a person enjoys physical fitness? How is it you assume it's because they are narcissists? If he is comfortable dressing as he is without worrying about those as yourself sitting in judgment of him on such superficial levels like this, than I'd say he's better off than those who feel a need to nay-say others.
***** Don't worry I tried to read most of Wilber's 15 books but most of the time after diagram 25 and table 48 I give up by realising that Christ and Ramana didn't need 56 tables and graphs to deliver a shattering truth. Your comment above is truly ironic. You claim Wilber says the map of the terrain is not the terrain. And yet he needed to get royalties from 15 books and waste the time of buyers and followers to map out that useless terrain. Even now he defends his useless "map". It is purile junk. Read this site for a former Wilber groupie's abandonment of Wilber. Like most of these ":thinkers" they become convinced that their amazing new theory (or really in many cases, simple re-expressions of ancient insights) is the new hope for humanity and a new age is dawning where these formerly humble people can now save the human race just by following the formula in their book. Regarding physical fitness- it's fine if it is to improve health and quality of life. And even then there is no need to show off the body. I spent 20 years in gymns and even now run 5km in 25 mins. Only to stave off death if I can. And yes, judgement IS necessary in life or else you're saying that the sexual abuse of children is fine since the rest of us are just nay sayers. Wilber is a conman living off the misery and suffering of confused seekers. His theories are a mish mash of anything and everything. He would have helped humanity better by collecting real garbage rather than assembling thought garbage and selling it.
If anyone is interested in true spiritual advancement and understanding what it is without reliance of God, drugs, mysticism,the concept of the divine and subservience to some 'higher power' then I highly recommend The Evolution of Consciousness series of books by Endall Beall. I came across these books on Amazon and they blew me away due to their simplicity of language and the profound workable tools the books provided without a lot of philosophical speculations about spiritual advancement.
I know what you mean,but you don`t understand.So you can`t explain,because you didn`t experience/when you don`t expierience annymore you now what i mean.
I guess this equates enlightenment with the silencing of music...seeing as music has a beginning, middle and ending in time. Schopenhauer believed that music was the purest form of will or desire...and without time where is will?
I wish Mr. Wilbur would actually transform and show us some good and positive results such as happy family, levitation, and such. I consider Mr. Wilbur an expert in stating conclusions without the (selected?) people asking for more than just his word.
Wilber is known for having no experience on this subject. He as much admits it himself. After waffling around for a while he resorts back to his own language..big mind etc. The fundamental difference with wilber is that his work is evolved primarily from reading. He began as a voracious reader and thus his model evolved. There are much more elegant models that pre date his. Leary Eight Circuit model for example. Further, experientially, his theorem is thrown into sharp contrast by the work of Stan Grof who has evolved his own model out of what does emerge under study under the influence of LSD in a clinical setting via many many thousands of clinical LSD sessions. The weight of his work crushes Wilbers paper study. Grof draws attention to the fact that Wilber has never tried these substances. One has to wonder why, he as much voices that here, but omits an answer. Strange for a transparent teacher no? Anyone eulogising on psychedelics will be in for a blunt surprise as they are not what you imagine and any suggestion of what is to be expected is the musings of someone who is fearful to try. A powerful psychedelic would be like a jack hammer to his work. He is a reader, not a clinician. The suggestion that entheogens can be used with meditation is also (to be expected) but pretty lame. No meditation will accelerate perception in the oblique manner in which such substances will. Anyone who says that they are comparable does not know what they are talking about.
Leary's 8-circuit model doesn't come close to drawing the kinds of distinctions Wilber does in his work. If you look at the descriptions of the higher circuits, they always list the drugs alongside with some mystic practices, as if they're equivalent. At least Wilber differentiates between endogenous and exogenous states. Sure would be interesting if Wilber tried psychedelics, but seems to me that Grof and Leary weren't very heavily into meditative practices either.
Plaator Depends which books you read. If you are looking at a simple version of the 8 circuit model you are right, but read 'The game of LIfe' and you have a full rendition of the theory. It contains phylogenetic and ontogenetic stages as well as ecological niches, very similar to Wilbers. The drug trigger aspect is very useful as it reveals a relationship between plants and the human brain/evolution. From opiates, alcohol, sex/Television to high end psychedelics. In many ways making it a far more observed and modernly useful model. Wilbers model is passively derived from passive meditiation and predominantly vast reading of Eastern texts - dubious in how well they suit the Western culture. Therefore again Leary's model is superior and culturally accurate. Seem you have only scraped the surface for the Eight Circuit Model and have taken that to be knowing it. Do the appropriate reading and see for yourself.
Plaator Further, it is not only the higher circuits which support drug triggers, but the lower circuits too. You've fallen into the basic trap of seeing what you want rather than seeing what is there. Knowing the lower level drug triggers is far more important than knowing the higher ones, expecially in an age of self indulgence and narcissistic flattery like the one we currently occupy and with new ageist over indulgence of ones sense of spiritual development. Your shallow understanding of Leary s model and I would guess Grof's work too are kind of why these conversations go no distance. Because scant knowledge is all people want to present the idea of being knowledgable, when in fact it is a ruse to feel important.
Nah, I dismiss Leary's model as incoherent because it isn't very practical (or predictive or precise). I've read Leary, and Wilson, and Alli (who is the only one of the three who actually included any kind of praxis based on the theory). Strange that you should bring up eastern culture as a problem for Wilbers model, since the 8-circuit model is basically a techno-futurist revision of an esoteric hindu cosmology. Of the people mentioned, Leary comes across as the most theoretical and least practice-oriented. Wilson did a whole lot of bodywork and magick, Alli has developed a novel form of theatre-practice for accessing the higher circuits and stabilizing the lower, Grof has holotropic breathwork and Wilber has certainly done his share of intensive retreats. Leary did some far-out experiments while in solitary confinement, but for all his visionary writings on controlling one's own nervous system there's very little technique. Almost nothing about how to actually go and do it, besides turning on, tuning in, dropping out.
'Nah, I dismiss Leary's model as incoherent because it isn't very practical (or predictive or precise).' - no one who has read any significant piece of his writing could ever offer such a point of view, as the work is exactly the opposite of what you say. A very peculiar thiing to say. The one thing that I can take for sure from your response here in general is that the sake of supporting your original position is more important than applying a cogent and objective assessment of the material. 'Leary comes across as the most theoretical and least practice-oriented.' mmmm, peculiar statement. For the sake of supporting your position rather than being factually accurate. ' is basically a techno-futurist revision of an esoteric hindu cosmology.' - Not strictly untrue, but you take a very reductionist manner, that belies the breadth and spread of the work. The language used is modern and western was my point, making it more applicable to western minds. Wilbers remains abstract by its foregin liguistic anc cultural sources, a criticism offered by others. And a strange position to take in the business of attempting to draw and redistribute a psychological cartography. You appear to focus on the non drug influenced works of these writers, not were the most ground breaking advancements were made to our knowledge of human nature, psychology or spiritualism. The fact that anyone could evolve psychic maps from the ingestion of teleological substances is in itself a philosophical breakthrough. I think you are swayed by your need to be 'right' by adhering to your position as opposed to your desire to actually represent accurately what these works are about.
Yeah I was wondering that too. I like how he quotes a line in the bible, saying that humans can equate themselves to God. How the hell can any human say they are God.....that's pretty arrogant considering fragile and disgusting we are.
SO many people just "do" the psychedelics like a theme park ride, missing whatever enlightenment they'd been offered, then just "do" it again without assimilating..... one reliable path to burnout when we use them to "fuel" creativity. I thought that Ayahuasca was uniquely separate from DMT?
Ayahuasca is not a psychedelic, it's a medicine. Anyone that thinks it's going to be an "amusement park ride" may very will be in for a rude awakening after they drink. I thought I was in for a bunch of cool visions and talking with spirits, etc.. Instead I got my physical ass kicked up and down 3 out of 4 ceremonies, one less because I drank a lesser dose.. I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but do yourself the honor of not confusing Aya with drugs or psychedelics. DMT is the active ingredient in Aya, but I have heard it's different. My understanding is that DMT does not contain the consciousness that Aya has.
movadoband You COULD, unfortunately the word "psychedelics" has baggage attached to it such as "hippie" stuff, or "LSD", etc. We need to recognize that Ayahuasca is something much different, even though there is SOME obvious crossover.
It is only uniquely different in the sense that it is a MAOI Inhibitor and a DMT admixture. The MAOI Inhibitor is a psychedelic in it's self. Psychedelics are medicine. Ayhuasca is a medicine, DMT is medicine, anything psychedelic can be used to medicate one under the right moderation and administration.
I thought Wilber was full of shit until I heard this. From my own intuitive and intellectual experiences I understand what he's talking about. I've never tried ayahuasca, but I understand what it is NOT for now.
so he doesnt normally do drugs but he drinks beer ??? i mean are people really that dumb to not think alcohol is a drug!!, its the worst drug out there just because it has a barcode and label doesnt mean its a drug
Ken Wilber is pretending to teach None-Duality, yet in the same sentence he separates the Phenomenon from the Witnessing Consciousness. The two exists as ONE. And he belittles the "fireworks" as inconsequential, in favor of the Observer. This is a subtle Ego working to show how enlightened he is. Further more he separates the apparent beginning the middle and ending of Phenomenon. If everything is ONE, then it is ALL-ONE unbroken, ever-changing continuum... NOT separated events of various importants.
This is a reply to Keith Johnsen I can't seem to find the following comment from him on this page. Indeed I can't seem to reply at all. Here goes Keith's comment: +DoctorShrink As I've said, you clearly are not speaking from a position of knowledge. You don't know what he teaches, you misrepresent him, and you instead focus on his muscles to detract from what he actually says because you have nothing of substance to offer. Why do I waste my time on those who operate at this level? Bored? Amused? I don't know. You've clearly demonstrated you're ignorance, boldly. ------------------------------------------------------------------- You mean Ken propose this shit: Upper-Left (UL) "I" Interior Individual Intentional e.g. Freud Upper-Right (UR) "It" Exterior Individual Behavioral e.g. Skinner Lower-Left (LL) "We" Interior Collective Cultural e.g. Gadamer Lower-Right (LR) "Its" Exterior Collective Social e.g. Marx I wish the 2x2 table pasted better but no matter. Wow, Ken simplifies the world into 4 quadrants so vague and general they are meaningless. These are like Barnum statements used by fortune tellers e.g. "You worry about what people think of you" i.e. statements so vague and general they lose all meaning but seem to apply some how and some way if you scope it out broad enough. Ken has tomes of this shit. Do I need to cite more? Tell me, what is a "theory of everything"? If you integrate a million times and you sit on your own sphincter. Lose the detail and almost anything can seem relevant. I mean Ken has 4 categories here to simplify the world (one of many simplifications that are crap) while the zodiac has 12. At least Eckhardt Tolle had the decency not to set up an institute to save the world and everything he teaches is well known stuff in new bottles. He doesn't claim a GRAND NEW THEORY even though he too thinks it's time to save the world and his (old) ideas are really needed right now. Tell me, do you believe in Wilber's shit and why?
Firstly where does this Ken get his authority to tell us which experience is a non experience?Is he mother Ayawaska? I think not.And this idea that you have mix spiritual practices with drug use is another new age assumption, taking a drug is a spiritual exerience. When you go to sleep you release DMT, if we were to have an enlightening dream would that make it any less spiritual that we were asleep?This guy is a charlatan, its obvious he just wants to sell a few more books.Where do you get the authority to talk like this Ken, you're full of it mate seriously.
I would agree with your conclusions regarding Ken Wilber. He is a Parrot. He is very well educated in spiritual Matters, but he does not have the continuous awareness of all that IS. He may have had glimpses of it... But you are wrong on Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is not a drug, all-dough the brew it self is also called Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is a benevolent Spirit that has been teaching and healing Humanity for 10s of thousands of years. She is the gateway to the higher Dimensions and their higher wisdom. The brew it self is also a medicine, not just a drug to get high on. And it serves to connect you with the Spirit of Ayahuasca. You are in continuous telepathic communication with Her, while in Ceremony.
which part did you think was BS? I found all of what he was saying easy to understand, but ive also been loosely toying with those concepts he was referring to for awhile. I will say, if you are interested in psychedelics and dont have a clue what that guy was talking about(assumption), you might want to read a few books on meditation and the concept of ego(the self). "zen mind, beginners mind" is good book to start with. So is "meditation in action". Basically, he is saying that without the aid of meditation practice, it can be very difficult, and almost impossible to integrate the experiences you have with psychedelics. Id say too, that you'd be more likely to have a bad trip as well without a meditation practice.
AttunedFlux I agree too, as someone with a great deal of experience in meditation, philosophy and psychedelics it made a lot of sense too me. I'd like to hear specifically what people found BS about it?
![MV วิถีชีวิตใต้ - ผา อัยย๊ะ [Official MV HD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nODlkOUu9B0/mqdefault.jpg)
He explains what I felt during my Ayahuasca journey.... I came to this "place" without time and space, a place in which there was nothing and everything at the same time. Just eternal oneness, there was no beginning, so there couldn't be an end. I immediately went like "Aaaaaah!" and knew from the bottom of my heart: this is the only TRUTH, this is eternity, and "thought": how could I ever have forgotten about this place? How could I ever have believed in time? It seemed so natural and well-known, so pure.
Ever since that day it puzzled me and I am trying to get back there.
Thank you for this inspiring talk Mr. Wilber. I read one of your books too and appreciate your work!
I think you forgot about it because our experience here for the most part is dualistic, being deceived by our senses. Perhaps we need this experience to learn what we cannot learn without it (pain, struggle, contrast) and to use that to contrast the against the other dimension to gain knowledge and to truly know love.
Same. There is, for me, also an inescapable truth. I must use words and images to describe the experience, but any description at the same time corrupts and distorts the experience. You can only know by experiencing.
@@AndrewUnruh same for showers, walks and everything else.
Wilber is so good explaining things.
I can't believe how many people have been commenting on Ken Wilber's shirt interpreting that it is an expression of his narcissism and ego-centrism. All your comments are a projection of yourself. It is easy to see the splinter in another person's eye and miss the log in yours. I think the shirt shows that he feels comfortable in his own being and he does not care what all of you judging people think about him.
Not to mention what he looks like now. Due to a rare illness he has lost all of his muscle. His previous fitness probably helped him stay alive when he was very sick. I don't know how much longer he has left but I hope he gets to stick around for awhile because of his (and my) belief that modern spirituality is in the process of vast change.
Ilzite K
KEN WILBUR HAS A BIG DICK!!!!!
The Battle for Consciousness Theory: A Response to Ken Wilber's Hijacking of Sri Aurobindo and Other Indian Thought on the right.
"The instruments are silenced... but the Music continues throughout."
That is awesome! What a beautiful quote. Thanks.
Where is that from? I didn't notice it in this video.
It's very interesting to hear Ken's opinion on the subject, I have a lot of respect for the man. But the bottom line is he has never taken ayahuasca, he's talking about something he has no first hand experience of.
True... but high meditative states can produce states of mind similar or even superior condition, based on the testimony of those that have.
+Norsang Kelsang have "those" people tried both? because if they didn't they how could they know for sure?
Just listen to the testimony of both. However, the meditater that would attain such states is rare. combining both would be interesting, but it is against the vinaya.
Ken made that point in the talk and elaborated. So you're not really saying anything.
The Battle for Consciousness Theory: A Response to Ken Wilber's Hijacking of Sri Aurobindo and Other Indian Thought on the right.
Wonderful QA Session. I have experienced Ayahuasca back in 2004 in Ecuador. First of all it was very important by the questioner to mention that Ayahuasca can be considered as 'food' instead of having been qualified as 'drug'. Read Terence McKenna 'Food of the Gods' to see how volatile these definitions actually are. Now, how Wilber replies to the question is really great. So much precise definitions, so much humor, so much human and humane understanding, so much real intelligence ... this video is a must-see for the truth seeker, I believe.
Thanks for your like:) Pierre
A lot of spiritual development movement(s) are just based on moments of "identification" with someone espousing understandings that already exist in many sources and people. It's just that for you, that explanation of it, that way, at that time and place meant something to you.
For somebody else it meant nothing, but re-explained differently a week later, with a different "guru, it meant everything.
Wilber here is no different. Most eastern traditions caution us on drug experiences not because they may be illegal or physically harmful but simply that they are experiences of the mind and mind in the end is the problem.
However, those not versed in many traditions or even those who have heard this before simply here it in a version that works for them and wow, they are amazed.
Some priests you can talk to. Some doctors you don;t trust but other do.
In this way there remains a market for people selling the ancient understandings
in new age bottles. And there are enough bottle buyers to allow the seller to pay the rent.
Twas ever thus.
DoctorShrink Thanks, what you write makes really sense to me. Very well observed. But don't you think that we as humans are always subjective in the sense that we don't, at least most of the time, have enough objective perception for seeing the truth behind the messenger? In other words, does the messenger not have, or should he or she not have, a personal tint in bringing over the original, and often, age-old message? Again in different terms, should we not value that personal vibration that a good and smart messenger (philosopher) brings to the message?
I go the way you suggest, I do read original texts, now for example for New Thought and Prosperity, 20 authors starting with Benjamin Franklin in 1758 (The Way to Wealth). I could as well just read Louise Hay or Catherine Ponder who distilled that wisdom teaching in their own ways. Each author adds another color to the spectrum. Most people may just watch 'The Secret'-and that's also a good way to get the message. At least it's a good starting point for further research …
By the way, I do not recommend Ayahuasca to anybody. It's really dangerous and was for me, a horror trip. And for finding truth, no psychedelics are needed. It was however good to quench that thirst, to get off that curiosity that was so burning hot and that was after all an illusion … Practically speaking (for myself), I see more enlightenment coming from good old prayer ...
***** I agree it's probably fine for the average vanilla flavoured guru to peddle their own ":version" of the ancient traditions for the average seeker willing to pay an entry fee (and not abandon their life in devotion or sign over their house) to a workshop/talk.
But when they create "The Theory" or "The Teachings" that will save the human race and now is the dawn of their new age then it's time to yawn and say "puhleeze". Even Eckhart Tolle is doing this with his belief that we are entering a new time of hope and change now that Oprah Winfrey has
swelled his ego and his bank balance.
Pity since Tolle was a truly humble seeker who has been thru his is own dark night of the soul and is a good communicator of eternal ideas/messages.
But most of them lose it when they get a bit of attention and the ego inflates even beyond their ability to control it.
Wilber is no different. Grand theories about things that ultimately cannot be theorised about. Integrations of ideas so distant that uniting them loses all detail, meaning and correctness. But it's THE theory of everything that only he could create and only his theory/ideas/concepts can save us all.
Phew! Lucky for humanity that he came along just in time....
I guess it pays the rent and keeps him off the streets but pity the poor fools who swallowed this snake oil for so long.
DoctorShrink [i'm replying to a comment from a different thread -- no reply option on that one]
Tolle does seem genuine. Wilber is an intellectual with an 'interest' in the spiritual.
The fact we can't name many inspiring teachers in a connected age that should be delivering them in abundance is I think curious. Are we idealising past teachers? Is mankind on a downward path?
Anyho. I agree the old ones are the good ones.
Oh shit I thought when I saw the title that Ken would take ayahuasca and then talk. What a let down.
Dang, yeah, me too. What's wrong with the word 'about'?
HAHAHAHA
Ayawaska is a teacher, just like Ken. But it is not a human teacher, it is a plant teacher. It is also a medicine because it heals you, specially your perception of life just like a spiritual teacher does. Ayawaska will point out at the same thing Ken just said. She has pointed that out to me, BUT it will also point out things that no book, no human can ever tell you, and it will do so in a way that is far more intelligent, clear and loving than any human teacher. Don't deny this if you have not experienced it. It is not for every one and it is not essential for your realization of self at all, but it is communion with something much more universal. Why not have such experience? why not have such enrichment?
If you meditate enough and practice right you can experience anything that some external psychedelic could provide. After all, even the trip is in your head, if it lasts long or short, good or bad, this is all defined by the mind and it's all fleeting.
i agree 100% with you. the "problem" is that most of the users want to tap into a full psychedelic experience, sometimes combined with music, festivals etc and simultaneously live a "normal" working life next to it. Inside that setting it is very hard to keep a strong and believing mind, practice and meditate every day to eventually have a psychedelic experience, when there is the shortcut of drugs.
I agree, although I suspect that drinking Aya may very well speed the process up. You might be able to get an amount of "work" done in one Aya ceremony that may take you months or years of meditation to do.
Iv practiced meditation for over 12 years, did some 10. 7, 5 day retreats, lived in a Vipassana center, teach it, etc. And I am also born in SAmerica, have done Aya, San Pedro, Psylocibine. In long retreats I had the experience of walls melting, seeing colors around people, clarity of mind, entering nothingness, universal expansion, etc… The plants on the other hand are a very different experience. Not in ANY way similar to meditation. One is actually having a real encounter with an enlightened plant consciousness. Try that for a teacher once! it will complement your understanding of life. id say 12 day retreat with Aya equals 5 years of meditation as far of ego dissolving. listen to testimonies. meditation is my way, i have to say that. but vow in respect for the teacher plants and come to them when i need spiritual healing.
Santiago Palacios Yes, and might I add that meditation is probably a much gentler way of ego dissolving, whereas Ayahuasca can be a brutal ordeal. On my 2nd ceremony I literally felt like I went through a 2.5 hour exorcism. My head didn't spin around, but it was physically and emotionally strenuous to say the least..
have you ever taken mushrooms?
I have never fully recovered from my psychedelic experience of ten years ago, but it set me on fire as far as spiritual growth goes. My evolution has been pretty nasty though, even hellish and suicidal at times. Proceed with caution. There are much easier ways to grow spiritually.
valar
changes the truth so much.
the younger you do it the better I feel but even to this day 32 years later still remains one of my most profound experiences.
valar can you explain a bit more? Didn't you prepare right? Wat where the after effects? And how come that it took so long to recover, was it inadequate support/guidance? What could you have done differently?
@@Randomdude-i8x Hi, I hope you see my reply five years later :) I'll give you the full story. It is long but contains a lot of useful information. I could have done many things differently. It's a Murphy's Law story.
Everything went wrong from the start. I was completely uneducated on marijuana and had zero tolerance but by dad gave me eight (!) pot brownies with vague instructions that did not say to only take one. You never, ever give someone with an anxiety disorder - I have OCD and nearly lifelong chronic anxiety - such a powerful substance with no guidance!
Anyway I ate three brownies in the space of an hour while camping, with a useless friend who scared me even more instead of helping me out and slept through the whole ordeal. It became psychedelic. I suffered a hellish trip for four-hours in the hospital and was given nothing to calm me down. (?) I saw my personality as a house of cards, a huge void below me that could devour the universe and felt energies that could tear galaxies in half. When I came down, I had depersonalization disorder. I didn't feel real and the world didn't either. Many panic attacks. The OCD went from bad to monstrous.
After an exhausting year and a huge panic attack, I was given Valium at the hospital with no warning that it was addictive. My doctor refilled the prescription with 100 pills. Another wtf moment. I was addicted in two weeks and my doc fucked up everything to do with me getting help ASAP. That panic attack had also triggered kundalini syndrome, but the Valium blocked the smooth processing of the energy until it built up such a head of steam that my addiction massively spiralled to control it and the pounding energy and constant fight or flight made weaning off the Valium extremely difficult. In fact, 14 years later, I'm still taking Valium as kundalini syndrome has destroyed all six of my heroic attempts to get off the drug. The Valium clogged up my brain and made spiritual progress much more difficult because my brain literally couldn't process my efforts or I would get treated for my obsessions but the fragile state of my brain would retraumatize me and I'd be dealing with the same friggin obsession popping back up a month later.
The kundalini is finally settling down now but it has meant no relationship, no children, no career, my youth being stolen from me and now I'm financially dependent on my parents after 16 fucking years of trying everything. If they were not wealthy I would be in a group home or dead of suicide. I still have deep and sickening existential fear all the time that is exhausting. It's locked in my stomach slightly below the belly button i.e. the core of the Self. It feels like a lump harder than a diamond containing vast clinging to the Self.
I believe I've burned off an incredible amount of karma that I've been told and feel involves repeated past life torture, sexual abuse, murder and brutal execution. Great physical pain, fear of pain, fear of fear and existential terror. Whoever comes after me should have a much easier go.
If I could do it all over again with the knowledge I have now, my path would be much easier to get to the same place. I would do a moderate amount of psychedelics in a controlled setting, never take Valium or any other benzodiazepine except in a momentary crisis. (Ironically I never got a benzo in the ambulance or the hospital in the very moment when such drugs would have been most useful. A few pills would have calmed me down immediately and probably spared me most of the trauma from the trip and therefore my addiction). Perhaps psilocybin.
I would use neurofeedback as soon as I started my spiritual path, it was already very good back then. Get therapy. I would work with the excellent energy healers I have now - one is a hidden yogi and scary enlightened. All this help would rid me of OCD and anxiety in a matter of years, as well as my chronic back pain. I would meditate an hour or two a day. I would slowly get better at using psychedelics to boost my development. I can't imagine where I wold be now.
I strongly reject the notion that suffering is 'necessary' for spiritual growth. It doesn't ring true to my experience and besides it is a dualistic proposition. If you have a lot of it, okay, here you are, deal with it head on as Buddhism teaches. But that doesn't mean suffering is necessary. ( E.g.: what kind? How much? For how long? Etc.) I already had masochistic tendencies before my experience and felt I deserved to be punished for my failures in life, and the trip strengthened the masochism hideously and was an obstacle for me in realizing drugs were blocking my progress.
Neo-Advaita teachers and specifically Adyashanti really hurt my search for help because of their 'suffering is purifying' stance, despite Adyashanti having never really suffered in his life. All of Buddhism is inundated with this idea, probably because back in the day spiritual progress was mostly brute force and insane willpower and tremendous sacrifice and very slow and stagnant innovation in skillful means. It's all they knew so they assumed it must always be like that. So did all of humanity. Today, so much has improved but many practitioners become masochists as I did, rolling in their suffering because they think it's good for them and waiting for a breakthrough that never happens because they aren't smart about their path.
Mental health developments are coming along fast now, such as rigorous psychedelic studies and technological advances. I have excellent healers, I do neurofeedback and have a brainwave entrainment device and I'm preparing for ketamine treatment. There's even a hospital near me that does focussed ultrasound for deep brain issues like OCD. So my hopes are high even if I'm not in a happy place at present.
@@squamish4244 wow that is an insane story! And it reached me! Thanks for posting. What a ride, good to hear that you are getting back on track. That must have been an really intense bad trip you've had. Everything that could go wrong, went wrong in the most destructive way. Do you consider regular therapy and EMDR? I agree that suffering itself is not growth. But for growth, you commonly need to endure some (or big) suffering. Are you familiar with the asthon manual? To get of benzo dependency. Might be helpful.
@@squamish4244 psychedelics are powerful tools and should be used with great respect indeed
Depends which books you read. If you are looking at a simple version of the 8 circuit model you are right, but read 'The game of LIfe' and you have a full rendition of the theory. It contains phylogenetic and ontogenetic stages as well as ecological niches, very similar to Wilbers. The drug trigger aspect is very useful as it reveals a relationship between plants and the human brain/evolution. From opiates, alcohol, sex/Television to high end psychedelics. In many ways making it a far more observed and modernly useful model. Wilbers model is passively derived from passive meditiation and predominantly vast reading of Eastern texts - dubious in how well they suit the Western culture. Therefore again Leary's model is superior and culturally accurate. Seem you have only scraped the surface for the Eight Circuit Model and have taken that to be knowing it. Do the appropriate reading and see for yourself.
Before clicking the video I thought it was an animated video with a GTA character
This poor soul has suffered so much and brought nothing to the world but beauty
What is music when there is no one to listen? Ken point's to the wisdom of the buddha, who experienced that all things come and go. Every zenmaster will tell you that the experience itself is not it... Who's is listening to the music? Who is receiving the beauty, in who does the music come alive? Ayahuasca can take you deep inside and show you the true nature of consciousness. If you know what to look for! In my opinion Ken is very clear on the subject.
Hi Pamela, Ayahuasca can give you a chance to experience the realms of the Divine and experience in the same time that their plays of the mind. That doesn't diminish the experience. I displays the vast dimensions of the mind. It can show you the dance of Shakti, the experience itself and Shiva, the never changing unborn witness. What Ken greatly points out, is that the Ayahuasca experience itself isn't it. Lot's of people get consfused, it can keep you busy for aeons, blinded by the light!
The only problem here is that the witness is unverifiable. Without objects there can be no validation of a witness. One would require faith in order to believe the timeless "i am" being. And having faith is unscientific.
check out rupert spira he does in depth deduction of reductionistic view in non dual fashion and help u to come to that place in very subtle and simple way
@@selflit what is meant by duality?
@@TheRaNetwork it begins by feeling that you are separated entity from the rest of creation, feeling of isolation usually comes from a survival instinct and sense that you are threatened against scary forces in the world (and this development is normal, in the begging you associate your mother as safety zone etc), so the ego (which is just an abstract notion or pointer not the real thing, by which we usually refer as illusory you - separated self) is in business of growing and advancing itself, categorization, division, constantly comparing with others (that presumably don't have anything to do with your self) and to give you a feeling of importance and safety
@@selflit yeah that makes a lot more sense than non duality
@@TheRaNetworksince im prolly younger than you are but after some expansive psychedelic and other experiences and huge life turmoil I'm trying to pick up pieces and fit then in the right place,
I'm currently in the process of accumulating and going through different perspectives and i resonated the most with taoism and contemporary non-dual advaita in regards to 'waking up', but what strikes me the most with wilber's approach is trying to get as many perspectives on the table and finding the common ground in all of it, in the end no model or teaching will lead you to your core, the beauty and terror of it is that you need courage and immense earnestness to dive into your-self alone, only to find the inside and outside are all the same, but that is topic for some other day
as terrence mckenna would like to point out your perception is primary (in a sense its the only thing you are sure of) so to never abandon it to the cause or some imaginary authority, Krishnamurti was big on that one too approaching it from slightly different angle
Welcome to the comment section, where you'll find people demonizing this fellow for is dress choices.
red eyes I major in psychology. psych not exist form of theory or cognition system by brain active. ultimately psych can exist form that discuss what i feel it. may be Ken didn't know about psych but he can discuss about his feeling. so Ken actually doing psychological work.
Wow...I couldn't say it better.
I didn't understand a thing..not to hate but what was his point? His argument?
Not necessarily. It depends on how you understand Music.
If you have a 5 minute musical score . . . and between minute 2 and 3 no instruments actually play . . . is the Music silenced between minute 2 and 3 (?)
No. The instruments are silenced . . . but the Music continues throughout.
does narcissism make a persons ideas invalid?
Were all human and fall short somewhere. Maybe you beat off to pornography? So what
Can anyone tell me what could happen if I go on this order of brain and spiritual stimulations , first I start with alcohol as an any teenager , then a certainly age start with THC , now im in mrooms once in a while , but I'm in research so about ayahuasca , but after that would like to research and go for monoatomic gold , besides of all of read and research that I did , about cleaning and declassified of my pineal gland , meditation etc , and if nobody knows what about monoatomic gold I recommend to read Zachariah stiching books
has anyone got any experience combining ayahuaska and theta wave binaural beats? If so, any thoughts about it's results?
+philip ragucci ooo
I have an idea! Why don't you all just > for a change? instead of looking to somone like this guy?
Make no mistake Ken Wilber had his initial breakthrough experience with LSD. (Source: John Horgan, Rational Mysticism, 2003, p. 61)
Yes endogenous vs. exogenous is the difference.
Lol I thought the video was gonna be a guy talking under the influence of aya. I was like 'damn I gotta see this' Hahahah
Pour water into a teacup, it becomes the teacup.
Pour water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing!
Exactly. So what is it in which all things including music, buddhawisdom and Ayahuasca-visions come and go?
I feel like Ken is about to pick up two mini guns and start wailing away at the walls lol. What is he wearing? hahah jk its good to see him relaxed and just speaking layman. It may be the first time, I was able to understand what he is saying for more than 10 seconds at a time. I used to see his philosophical aka hieroglyphic youtube talks. lol I found his knowledge here extremely useful! He is giving a direct pointer to the consciousness that is ever present regardless of any seeking or experimentation with "other states". It is accessible and free for everyone! I love that he focused on that.
I can relate to what he's talking about extremely well here. The oneness, timelessness, and active participation with the divine that I experienced on mushrooms is what really stuck with me, and I strive to remember that lesson every day!
thx for sharing brother!
I don't think he said he was all knowing or that he has ever taken psychedelics. He spoke about observations he had about individuals path to grow spiritually.
I was wondering if I should try ayahuasca realising what ever happened it is an experience, no matter how profound it may be it is another experience. The very motive on my part is to experience something.It changes nothing for the witness I am. Thank you for the clarity.
To whom it may concern: If you believe you have something insightful or enlightening to say, then why not just say it and be done with it? Surely, that would serve everyone far better than taking every opportunity to snipe at Wilber.
well said. !
I'm amazed by some of these idiotic comments about his muscles, saying he can't be spiritual because he exercises his body. People who sit and judge another's spiritual life should look at their own. The more you are in touch with that, the less you look down your nose at others. The less you are in touch with that, the more you compensate for it by looking down your nose at others.
Wilber is not a guru, nor claims to be. His focus is on an academic approach at looking at the teachings and practices of many traditions and disciplines the world over and positing a integral theory of them tied into developmental models. His insights into these areas are not based on meditation or spiritual practices, and therefore such judgments about how spiritual he is or isn't is irrelevant. I however respect his mind, and his sincerity and have little doubt as to his personal spiritual life. But that is irrelevant to the content of the information he presents.
If you think that those who pay attention to the superficial then you must also be superficial. It DOES matter. Mother Theresa was selfless. She didn't care if her buttocks were saggy. Those attending gymns are usually not just health seeking. If Wilbur was then he doesn't need to be wearing a singlet to display it. Yeah I could just see Mother Theresa in lycra and doing a muscle pose.
No, it doesn't matter. Keith Johnsen is right, dont judge and be happy, because every path this world offers is right and worthy to explore or it wouldn't exist. The world doesn't become a better place by people following a certain path that is considered "right". The world gets better when it's populated by people who are happy because they do the things they want to do and they're proud of their individuality. These people have realized that when you're in peace with yourself you have no reason to be angry (or judging. being jealous etc) at anybody.
Simple in your case: You probably don't have bulging biceps and you share a misconception with millions of men that this fact will somehow influence your lifeexperience in a negative way (hell even I think like that). Over time you develop some negative emotions towards bodybuilders, your ego starts to defend your "weak body" by judging those people as "underdeveloped minds" and by creating arguments like "i'm a spiritual man therefore not concerned with building up my biceps" . These are all concepts, created by you, determined by you. And you will fit every other human being into those concepts. That's why the image of Ken Wilber, combining spirituality and bulging biceps, creates conflicts in you and motivates you to write such comments.
novusvoss
Please spare me the amateur psychoanalysis. It's ridiculous.
Millions of people worldwide are unhappy with the human condition- even when they have all the privileges of the first world. They seek answers and people like Wilbur peddle very poor abstract theorizing which is internally self contradictory. That is they use thoughts/ideas/notions/concepts/categories to describe what is indescribable in terms of thoughts/ideas/notions/concepts/categories. That is his point in this video i.e. drugs are an experience of the mind and not part of the absolute. Nevertheless Ken makes good money describing the undescribable with his version of "hierarchies" (yawn) of spiritual growth (as if a category even applies to the absolute).
Meanwhile superficial fools like yourself will accept that a 3 year old can talk about nuclear fission with credibility and a gymn junkie like Wilbur can talk about "ultimate truth" while he's fixate on how ripped his abdominals are.
And NO!! All paths in this life are not equal and acceptable just because they are possible. I doubt a victim of a pedophile or the nazi holocaust would agree on a "hey, live and let live" approach to life like you. Some things are not really acceptable. Just ask those descendants of the slave trade.
DoctorShrink You really haven't read Wilber, have you? Wilber very much understands the "map of the terrain is not the terrain". Furthermore, he does not believe all paths are equal. If you read him, that should be obvious. He is constantly going after postmodernist thought like that.
What's more, how do you know why a person enjoys physical fitness? How is it you assume it's because they are narcissists? If he is comfortable dressing as he is without worrying about those as yourself sitting in judgment of him on such superficial levels like this, than I'd say he's better off than those who feel a need to nay-say others.
***** Don't worry I tried to read most of Wilber's 15 books but most of the time after diagram 25 and table 48 I give up by realising that Christ and Ramana didn't need 56 tables and graphs to deliver a shattering truth.
Your comment above is truly ironic. You claim Wilber says the map of the terrain is not the terrain. And yet he needed to get royalties from 15 books and waste the time of buyers and followers to map out that useless terrain.
Even now he defends his useless "map". It is purile junk.
Read this site for a former Wilber groupie's abandonment of Wilber.
Like most of these ":thinkers" they become convinced that their amazing new theory (or really in many cases, simple re-expressions of ancient insights) is the new hope for humanity and a new age is dawning where these formerly humble people can now save the human race just by following the formula
in their book.
Regarding physical fitness- it's fine if it is to improve health and quality of life. And even then there is no need to show off the body. I spent 20 years in gymns and even now run 5km in 25 mins. Only to stave off death if I can.
And yes, judgement IS necessary in life or else you're saying that the sexual abuse of children is fine since the rest of us are just nay sayers. Wilber is a conman living off the misery and suffering of confused seekers. His theories are a mish mash of anything and everything. He would have helped humanity better by collecting real garbage rather than assembling thought garbage and selling it.
If anyone is interested in true spiritual advancement and understanding what it is without reliance of God, drugs, mysticism,the concept of the divine and subservience to some 'higher power' then I highly recommend The Evolution of Consciousness series of books by Endall Beall. I came across these books on Amazon and they blew me away due to their simplicity of language and the profound workable tools the books provided without a lot of philosophical speculations about spiritual advancement.
I know what you mean,but you don`t understand.So you can`t explain,because you didn`t experience/when you don`t expierience annymore you now what i mean.
The Battle for Consciousness Theory: A Response to Ken Wilber's Hijacking of Sri Aurobindo and Other Indian Thought on the right.
Mr. Wilber, thank you for your words. Humbly I would state that the atemporal component is the thanking to all that is given.
he took ayahuasca as the santo daime in the santo daime douctrine here in Brasil
I guess this equates enlightenment with the silencing of music...seeing as music has a beginning, middle and ending in time.
Schopenhauer believed that music was the purest form of will or desire...and without time where is will?
I wish Mr. Wilbur would actually transform and show us some good and positive results such as happy family, levitation, and such. I consider Mr. Wilbur an expert in stating conclusions without the (selected?) people asking for more than just his word.
Really good
Good one, thanks for sharing.
Very instructive TY.
Ken is jacked.
Please! Spanish traduction, or subtitles in english
Wow! I didn't know that the lead singer of Midnight Oil is now doing new age seminars. Cool.
Nothing's as sacred
As a hole in the groooooooound!
Wilber is known for having no experience on this subject. He as much admits it himself. After waffling around for a while he resorts back to his own language..big mind etc. The fundamental difference with wilber is that his work is evolved primarily from reading. He began as a voracious reader and thus his model evolved. There are much more elegant models that pre date his. Leary Eight Circuit model for example. Further, experientially, his theorem is thrown into sharp contrast by the work of Stan Grof who has evolved his own model out of what does emerge under study under the influence of LSD in a clinical setting via many many thousands of clinical LSD sessions. The weight of his work crushes Wilbers paper study. Grof draws attention to the fact that Wilber has never tried these substances. One has to wonder why, he as much voices that here, but omits an answer. Strange for a transparent teacher no? Anyone eulogising on psychedelics will be in for a blunt surprise as they are not what you imagine and any suggestion of what is to be expected is the musings of someone who is fearful to try. A powerful psychedelic would be like a jack hammer to his work. He is a reader, not a clinician. The suggestion that entheogens can be used with meditation is also (to be expected) but pretty lame. No meditation will accelerate perception in the oblique manner in which such substances will. Anyone who says that they are comparable does not know what they are talking about.
Leary's 8-circuit model doesn't come close to drawing the kinds of distinctions Wilber does in his work. If you look at the descriptions of the higher circuits, they always list the drugs alongside with some mystic practices, as if they're equivalent. At least Wilber differentiates between endogenous and exogenous states.
Sure would be interesting if Wilber tried psychedelics, but seems to me that Grof and Leary weren't very heavily into meditative practices either.
Plaator Depends which books you read. If you are looking at a simple version of the 8 circuit model you are right, but read 'The game of LIfe' and you have a full rendition of the theory. It contains phylogenetic and ontogenetic stages as well as ecological niches, very similar to Wilbers. The drug trigger aspect is very useful as it reveals a relationship between plants and the human brain/evolution. From opiates, alcohol, sex/Television to high end psychedelics. In many ways making it a far more observed and modernly useful model. Wilbers model is passively derived from passive meditiation and predominantly vast reading of Eastern texts - dubious in how well they suit the Western culture. Therefore again Leary's model is superior and culturally accurate. Seem you have only scraped the surface for the Eight Circuit Model and have taken that to be knowing it. Do the appropriate reading and see for yourself.
Plaator Further, it is not only the higher circuits which support drug triggers, but the lower circuits too. You've fallen into the basic trap of seeing what you want rather than seeing what is there. Knowing the lower level drug triggers is far more important than knowing the higher ones, expecially in an age of self indulgence and narcissistic flattery like the one we currently occupy and with new ageist over indulgence of ones sense of spiritual development. Your shallow understanding of Leary s model and I would guess Grof's work too are kind of why these conversations go no distance. Because scant knowledge is all people want to present the idea of being knowledgable, when in fact it is a ruse to feel important.
Nah, I dismiss Leary's model as incoherent because it isn't very practical (or predictive or precise). I've read Leary, and Wilson, and Alli (who is the only one of the three who actually included any kind of praxis based on the theory).
Strange that you should bring up eastern culture as a problem for Wilbers model, since the 8-circuit model is basically a techno-futurist revision of an esoteric hindu cosmology.
Of the people mentioned, Leary comes across as the most theoretical and least practice-oriented. Wilson did a whole lot of bodywork and magick, Alli has developed a novel form of theatre-practice for accessing the higher circuits and stabilizing the lower, Grof has holotropic breathwork and Wilber has certainly done his share of intensive retreats. Leary did some far-out experiments while in solitary confinement, but for all his visionary writings on controlling one's own nervous system there's very little technique. Almost nothing about how to actually go and do it, besides turning on, tuning in, dropping out.
'Nah, I dismiss Leary's model as incoherent because it isn't very practical (or predictive or precise).' - no one who has read any significant piece of his writing could ever offer such a point of view, as the work is exactly the opposite of what you say. A very peculiar thiing to say. The one thing that I can take for sure from your response here in general is that the sake of supporting your original position is more important than applying a cogent and objective assessment of the material.
'Leary comes across as the most theoretical and least practice-oriented.'
mmmm, peculiar statement. For the sake of supporting your position rather than being factually accurate.
' is basically a techno-futurist revision of an esoteric hindu cosmology.' - Not strictly untrue, but you take a very reductionist manner, that belies the breadth and spread of the work. The language used is modern and western was my point, making it more applicable to western minds. Wilbers remains abstract by its foregin liguistic anc cultural sources, a criticism offered by others. And a strange position to take in the business of attempting to draw and redistribute a psychological cartography.
You appear to focus on the non drug influenced works of these writers, not were the most ground breaking advancements were made to our knowledge of human nature, psychology or spiritualism. The fact that anyone could evolve psychic maps from the ingestion of teleological substances is in itself a philosophical breakthrough. I think you are swayed by your need to be 'right' by adhering to your position as opposed to your desire to actually represent accurately what these works are about.
This guy is a searcher...always looking ....restless mind.
Brilliant.
Ken Wilber looking badass!
clickbait noyone is on ayahuasca here.
ken is great but a bit biased in his response!
Yeah I was wondering that too. I like how he quotes a line in the bible, saying that humans can equate themselves to God. How the hell can any human say they are God.....that's pretty arrogant considering fragile and disgusting we are.
Wait, this man has 68 years!?
SO many people just "do" the psychedelics like a theme park ride, missing whatever enlightenment they'd been offered, then just "do" it again without assimilating..... one reliable path to burnout when we use them to "fuel" creativity.
I thought that Ayahuasca was uniquely separate from DMT?
Ayahuasca is not a psychedelic, it's a medicine. Anyone that thinks it's going to be an "amusement park ride" may very will be in for a rude awakening after they drink. I thought I was in for a bunch of cool visions and talking with spirits, etc.. Instead I got my physical ass kicked up and down 3 out of 4 ceremonies, one less because I drank a lesser dose..
I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but do yourself the honor of not confusing Aya with drugs or psychedelics. DMT is the active ingredient in Aya, but I have heard it's different. My understanding is that DMT does not contain the consciousness that Aya has.
8triagrammer psychedelic translates into mind manifesting, any of these medicines could be referred to as psychedelics.
movadoband You COULD, unfortunately the word "psychedelics" has baggage attached to it such as "hippie" stuff, or "LSD", etc.
We need to recognize that Ayahuasca is something much different, even though there is SOME obvious crossover.
It is only uniquely different in the sense that it is a MAOI Inhibitor and a DMT admixture. The MAOI Inhibitor is a psychedelic in it's self. Psychedelics are medicine. Ayhuasca is a medicine, DMT is medicine, anything psychedelic can be used to medicate one under the right moderation and administration.
I AMNESS! I'm cured.
Totally agree.👍
right on!!!
Very cool
And if this count I am a skydiver ;-)
Ain't gonna cut it
You cannot group Ayahuasca with other psychedelics,it is on a level all it's own.
Same with San Pedro/Huachuma.
Ive come to the realization that the older your bones are the more you are worth
I thought Wilber was full of shit until I heard this. From my own intuitive and intellectual experiences I understand what he's talking about. I've never tried ayahuasca, but I understand what it is NOT for now.
amazing
so he doesnt normally do drugs but he drinks beer ??? i mean are people really that dumb to not think alcohol is a drug!!, its the worst drug out there just because it has a barcode and label doesnt mean its a drug
If there is 'no one to listen' there is no 'wisdom of the Buddha' either.
when Ken's ego loved to show off his worked muscles...
he ended up taking too much ayahuasca.
talksolot below.. brilliant comment..
Ken Wilber is pretending to teach None-Duality, yet in the same sentence he separates the Phenomenon from the Witnessing Consciousness.
The two exists as ONE.
And he belittles the "fireworks" as inconsequential, in favor of the Observer.
This is a subtle Ego working to show how enlightened he is.
Further more he separates the apparent beginning the middle and ending of Phenomenon.
If everything is ONE, then it is ALL-ONE unbroken, ever-changing continuum...
NOT separated events of various importants.
Sorry my friend but you clearly had no grasp of what he says in the video.
Has he just come straight from the gym?
really???
❤❤
This is a reply to Keith Johnsen
I can't seem to find the following comment from him on this page. Indeed I can't seem to reply at all. Here goes Keith's comment:
+DoctorShrink As I've said, you clearly are not speaking from a position of knowledge. You don't know what he teaches, you misrepresent him, and you instead focus on his muscles to detract from what he actually says because you have nothing of substance to offer. Why do I waste my time on those who operate at this level? Bored? Amused? I don't know. You've clearly demonstrated you're ignorance, boldly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You mean Ken propose this shit:
Upper-Left (UL)
"I"
Interior Individual
Intentional
e.g. Freud
Upper-Right (UR)
"It"
Exterior Individual
Behavioral
e.g. Skinner
Lower-Left (LL)
"We"
Interior Collective
Cultural
e.g. Gadamer
Lower-Right (LR)
"Its"
Exterior Collective
Social
e.g. Marx
I wish the 2x2 table pasted better but no matter. Wow, Ken simplifies the world into 4 quadrants so vague and general they are meaningless. These are like Barnum statements used by fortune tellers e.g. "You worry about what people think of you" i.e. statements so vague and general they lose all meaning but seem to apply some how and some way if you scope it out broad enough.
Ken has tomes of this shit. Do I need to cite more?
Tell me, what is a "theory of everything"? If you integrate a million times and you sit on your own sphincter. Lose the detail and almost anything can seem relevant. I mean Ken has 4 categories here to simplify the world (one of many simplifications that are crap) while the zodiac has 12.
At least Eckhardt Tolle had the decency not to set up an institute to save the world and everything he teaches is well known stuff in new bottles. He doesn't claim a
GRAND NEW THEORY even though he too thinks it's time to save the world and his (old) ideas are really needed right now.
Tell me, do you believe in Wilber's shit and why?
جار القمرمراحب بيكم يا هلا
I'm kinda afraid THIS SOUNDS LIKE A DRUG "it gets you high" um IT SOUNDS LIKE A DRUG. SOMEONE PLEASE CLARIFY
Moshi room i think "it gets high" mean you can see anything cognitively.
I wish Ken would wear a regular shirt while he does his routine.
***** you can wish bigger than that
Roger Hornaday oh the irony
He could literally be completely naked and I wouldn't care at all; it has nothing to do with his words.
Addicted to ayahausca is unlikely, someone with your mentality shouldn't even bother,its not for you,have a
definitely not the best talk on it ever. not even close dude !
my nigga
put a shirt on
LOL, he just clarified and debunked the Christian God in his own words. Lunacy.
Well..its easy to make comparisons isn't it.
being
Firstly where does this Ken get his authority to tell us which experience is a non experience?Is he mother Ayawaska? I think not.And this idea that you have mix spiritual practices with drug use is another new age assumption, taking a drug is a spiritual exerience. When you go to sleep you release DMT, if we were to have an enlightening dream would that make it any less spiritual that we were asleep?This guy is a charlatan, its obvious he just wants to sell a few more books.Where do you get the authority to talk like this Ken, you're full of it mate seriously.
I would agree with your conclusions regarding Ken Wilber.
He is a Parrot.
He is very well educated in spiritual Matters, but he does not have the continuous awareness of all that IS.
He may have had glimpses of it...
But you are wrong on Ayahuasca.
Ayahuasca is not a drug, all-dough the brew it self is also called Ayahuasca.
Ayahuasca is a benevolent Spirit that has been teaching and healing Humanity for 10s of thousands of years.
She is the gateway to the higher Dimensions and their higher wisdom.
The brew it self is also a medicine, not just a drug to get high on.
And it serves to connect you with the Spirit of Ayahuasca.
You are in continuous telepathic communication with Her, while in Ceremony.
+Little Bear well it's a different story with ayahuasca since DMT is already part of your system.
Beer,
Who the hell is this guy and makes him the all knowing one. Why because he took this. L. S. D stuff .
Ken Wilber is a false teacher
David Leone' why? he is not false teacher, just have own faith for re-educate calculation of integral fit in somethings
He teaches pantheism... it's bogus!
David Leone' I major psyche and agree this things bogus but his discussion about all things is persuasive from cognitive perspective, i think.
@@punkylilkid he teaches nonduality
Sounds like BS to me.
fine...change ur channel
I thought I was the only one. This is pure BS
which part did you think was BS? I found all of what he was saying easy to understand, but ive also been loosely toying with those concepts he was referring to for awhile.
I will say, if you are interested in psychedelics and dont have a clue what that guy was talking about(assumption), you might want to read a few books on meditation and the concept of ego(the self). "zen mind, beginners mind" is good book to start with. So is "meditation in action".
Basically, he is saying that without the aid of meditation practice, it can be very difficult, and almost impossible to integrate the experiences you have with psychedelics. Id say too, that you'd be more likely to have a bad trip as well without a meditation practice.
AttunedFlux i agree completely
AttunedFlux I agree too, as someone with a great deal of experience in meditation, philosophy and psychedelics it made a lot of sense too me. I'd like to hear specifically what people found BS about it?
cabala
Schizophrenia is the result of this stuff.
which stuff wilbers entheogens or both? 🙃