ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2023
- Sauces~
Sora's POV :
【minecraft】かなた城の装飾をする！！【#ときのそら生放送/ホロライブ/ときのそら】
• 【minecraft】かなた城の装飾をする！...
Ollie's POV :
【MINECRAFT】デコレーションのお手伝いをします!! DECORATING KANATA-SENPAI'S CASTLE!!【Hololive Indonesia 2nd Gen】
• 【MINECRAFT】デコレーションのお手伝...
Kanata : Not streaming
#tokinosora
#amanekanata
#kureijiollie - เกม
![Korone Speeds Over to Okayu's House Mid-Stream for an Impromptu Off-Collab [Hololive]](/img/n.gif)
I still remember Lui's first DDLC stream and she straight up went "wait, I have to read KANJI???"
Sora: "Even Japanese people can't read kanji properly."
The overseas viewers who have been repeatedly throwing Miko under the bus: _puts on a surprised Pikachu face_
We need to start wrinting a Lot of superchats as apology it seems
To be fair, it's not just overseas viewers ribbing Miko. One of the common jokes I've seen in comments of Japanese clips is acting like Miko is actually Holo EN while EN or ID girls good with Japanese like IRyS, Bae, or Anya are actually Holo JP.
Its a cultural thing too - when Kanata and Sora say they cant read Kanji, then mean they cant read ALL kanji
Kanata knows some extremely complex and technical kanji, but she still says she doesnt know kanji because to her there are still some kanji relaed to law etc that hse may not have come across so she doesnt know it
It's like saying "I dont know english words", when meaning "I dont know all the english words"
Schools teach about 3K kanji, and you learn another 2-3K depending on your specialty in college etc
But there over 50K kanji including stuff that arent used outside old literature
@@yrzy16franco14 What the supa senders are about to send: "Oh no!"
What the supa senders really meant: "Anyways. . . "
@@XYousoro well thats True....more for the 35p
Guys, please don't get confused: If Japanese people say that they can't read Kanji, they are referring to Kanji you don't use in common daily life sentences. OF COURSE they can read basic Kanji like 人、日、今、本、赤、青、時、間、見、歩、熱、 週、年、待、気、言、語 etc.
Ah yeah, those are very basic ones, elementary school level I suppose
not long ago Kanata troll Miko with a signboard of difficult kanji. and Miko totally don't understand it. lol
Anya : iie, iie, iie. I'm still learning
Narrator : Uso de aru
I heard voices in my head 😭
@@cardigunovsame
You know, I thought being unable to use kanji and only writing in kana would have me be seen as illiterate. This is a slight comfort and a boost to get back to my Japanese lessons.
Technically, you only need about 2k kanji to be considered fluent. 1.5k is needed for daily usage
@@HandleToBeDetermined
Considering how many words we usually know, 2000 is not a lot. And the whole swap-around game in English and Romance languages involving radicals, prefixes and suffixes seems to be reflected in kanji with how many elements I see repeated among them (I'm at the point where I see a kanji and still have no idea how to read it, but I have an instant mental map on the strokes to write it).
It's very interesting.
True
Man, I need to go back to wanikani to study
Its frustrating when reading Japanese article or websites and there's a wall of kanji that I don't know
@@DinnerForkTongue Nowadays there's also a problem with IME dependence. Where one can type kanji (and recognize it) but can't write it.
The Japanese saying nobody can read kanji is like the most accurate description of learning Japanese. It's hard even for them so don't give up
That is also an accurate depiction of japanese culture. Where you can't trust the literal meaning of that sentence, because they humble themself so much it is borderline lying.
I was wondering how on earth the Japanese were doing it 🤣
i have been wondering why they keep using kanji if they themselves have difficulties learning it
Most of their modernized wordings uses a latin-based character system, so in the end they say it like latin-based words but differently.
So to non-japanese users, it looks asian because of the symbols, but when pronounced it's not that much different to English words sometimes.
Miko is always getting roasted from the sidelines lmfao
give miko some slack, she not even from jp hololive
0:50 a cut to Miko sneezing would've been so freaking funny
It's cute how Ollie eventually took the compliment, she deserves all the love she gets and more
Wow, even Soda-chan admits Miko is not that good at Japanese
Other: Kanji is hard
Anya & Irys: No it's not
Miko: what is kanji?
Many Japanese people can't read majority of kanji because the number of characters is soo large, meanwhile Anya one of Hololive JP who is good at reading Kanji
"Nihongo jouzu" achievement unlocked.
Poor Miko. She'll never catch a break from her HoloEN allegations.
If they mean "most Japanese don't know most kanji" then that makes sense because niche/uncommon words take up most of the dictionary of most languages. However, if they mean "most Japanese know very little kanji" then I find that very surprising considering kanji is literally everywhere in Japan (signage, names, official documents, literature), so I'd expect them to be accustomed to at least a decent amount of it
it's more like "wait that's how you read it?" because that's how i feel a lot when playing video games in japanese. kanji is like the wild west where characters fight each other for how they are pronounced
example:
探す vs 捜す (seems interchangeable but 捜す is used in yakuza compared to 探す in textbooks)
The level of understanding of kanji varies between people but two basic measures are that elementary/primary students are expected to learn 1,000 kanji and then another 1,000 by the time they leave high school. So about 2,000 kanji are expected as a base level for people in their late teens.
For context, there are said to be over 50,000 kanji, though most of those are in specialised fields that most people will rarely encounter.
For example, someone involved in civil engineering may see a lot of construction related kanji, while someone in a medical laboratory may see a lot of chemical related kanji.
@@zarabada6125 50,000 kanji is considering all the hanzi registered since the ancient China days. Modern japanese recognize around of 6300; the ones necessary to pass the ultimate level of the Kanji Kentei Shiken. But in practice even the most well educated specialist known around 3000. And the average japanese could navigate in their daily live knowing 2000 like you pointed out.
It is probably a visual thing. Like they see 郵便局 and their brain automatically register it as Yuubinkyoku (post office), but if you ask them what any of those kanjis means individually they wouldn't be 100% sure about the meaning.
@@CaMpEeeeerX so similar to how fluent readers of latin alphabets work: as long as the first and last letter are correct, and just the inside ones are jumbled, you can still read it; but a beginner would have to guess every single word
I still remember the ironic moment when I had to correct my teacher's kanji in my Japanese language school.
During that time Miko just had her loudest sneeze of the year.
Yep, heard it's really hard for them too. But if they know the context it'll be easier to read
Sasuga Anya, she's more Japanese than Japanese people, it's like a certain Joey who's more fluent at his 2nd language lol
The random roast, poor Miko xD
I remember watching a clip of Korone playing a short, comedic rpg and she had so much trouble reading some of the dialog cause of the kanji.
But somehow we still need at least N2 to even think to apply for job over there if we have somethough on trying to live there....
I wonder if in the next generation or so kanji might not get phased out altogether. Korean has mostly already done it. The only time you see hanja (kanji) in Korean publications nowadays is in parentheses following a word written in hangul to clarify its meaning. And even then they never use hanja to write native Korean words, only words borrowed from Chinese.
remember guys what ollie said
ollie : kanji kanji san arigatou
LMAO, Miko on the thumbnail 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Me, after watching this clip, having spent the last 6 months studying Kanji: (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Bruh 😂😂😂
I knew that some people in JP can't read kanji but I didn't know it was THAT common to not be able to read it, so I guess that me feeling dumb for not understanding this after learning some katakana and hiragana was dumber than not being able to learn it :^)
They might refer to the more unusual kanji. I've seen many HoloJP members eventually struggle when in a game there's a character that talks with "big words" or speaks in a more formal way.
The characters might not be that much of a problem, but the reading is. There are tons of irregular readings of kanji. Recently the government even had to ban people from naming their kids with weird readings (kira kira names).
They are definitely referring to more rare and uncommon kanjis. Kanjis you see in every day in Japan most people can read and you would be the weird one if you don't know them if you're Japanese.
On top of that, even if they can read and understand what it means doesn’t mean they can write the Kanji. Many JP people struggle to write as well so you don’t need to be pressured to learn perfectly
"Yeah but nobody can read kanji"
Lol Sora-chan
We learn basic Kanjis in elementary school for 6 years. FOR 6 YEARS!! And still stumble upon some Kanji we can read, many times so don’t give up guys!
Me, struggling with N5 kanji:
Well, this makes me feel slightly better about how much i still suck at it after a year of studying
I suddenly feel less bad about forgetting a lot of kanji since high school.
I'd say Japanese people not knowing kanji is like us not knowing the niche and obscure words that make up most of English.
*some* kanji. There's an official list of 2100 kanji which everyone is taught, and knows with at least 90% accuracy. It's the thousands beyond that, which are far more rare, that your statement would ring true for.
Wait what... but all the manga raw's I've collected have nothing but Kanji !?
They're exaggerating here, but basically its about 2000 or so kanji to be considered literate, but the fact is there's something like 50k plus that are officially recognized that a good amount of the population would struggle with. Even in those raws, you'll see the occasional furigana (small hiragana/katakana) where either the author has created their own pronunciation or its done because its not something you see often.
Naruhodo, so it's a common thing!
"You're fine if you can read hiragana or katakana"
Because those who spoke about it were Japanese (Kanata and Sora), then I believe it.
We don't need Kanji! 😀
lmao miko catching strays
Honestly, as someone with a BA in Japanese, its more impressive that Ollie has come as far as she has without knowing kanji, lol. Another thing for me is that I've forgotten most of the kanji I've learned, but sometimes I'll remember it by context clues. For example the stream source title かなた城の装飾をする！！I'd never be able to recall the "shiro" part of Kanatajo on its own, but given its included with Kanata, I can remember its castle. But the second set of kanji....I've got no clue without looking it up, lol. But even without it I'd assume it was related to Kanata's earlier request to Sora Guild about helping her improve her...schoo...castle....
i wonder how much of this is Holo-Pon and how much is IRL.
I remember an old friend of mine (Japanese) more than 10 years ago for sure, she told me that Japan just preserves Kanji for the sake of tradition but most young people don't even bother anymore to learn it. This conversation I had with her was a little over 10 years ago so, yeah I'm not surprised that a lot of young Japanese people today are also struggling with Kanji.
Mikochi catching strays
Huh.. Watching people play FFXIV, I didn't think reading kanji would be that hard..
To be fair, Kanji contains a lot of Chinese characters and symbols.
Lmao Elite Miko catching strays
Are Ame fans okay? I always see the most cursed things coming from them, especially when I least expect it
Our pure elite maiden keeps catching strays 😢. Not wrong tho 🤣
thats a cute convo but htf ollie make that she should start making lil tutorials so i can copy it and impress the peeps in my minecraft realm XD
it's a good news, BUT even though they can't read kanji, they could more or less understand the meaning. so yeah don't give up, but don't lower your guard either.
I'd love to know what they're imagining when they say "kanji" . Cuz I can't help but think it's different than what I'm imagining, as a guy who some days can't tell his 猫 from his 描
Mikochi catchin strays
Ini sama kaya orang Jawa yang banyak gak bisa baca aksara Jawa (termasuk saya).
Belajarnya aja cuma sampe smp pas jaman saya sekolah dulu
Kurikulum berubah, dari yang awalnya pelajaran wajib beralih ke muatan lokal yg tergantung pada sekolah nya.
Beda, aksara jawa gak terlalu umum... kalau kanji ada di mana2, nama stasiun, merek minuman, judul buku, dll... jadi rada aneh kalau ternyata banyak orang JP gak bisa kanji...
Sama juga aku gitu posisinya 😅
Aksara jawa ga dipake buat daily seh... di Jawa sendiri ga pke aksara jawa kn
Meanwhile
Anya: he he he he he
everyone
don't believe this story
Even if you can't write Kanji, you may be able to live your daily life, but if you can't read Kanji, your daily life will be difficult.
(Opinions from the Japanese side)
1:56 "Such thing is possible?"
Yes. It's possible. You may partially or even completely forget a language if you hardly ever/never spoke the language. That's why it could be a struggle for some people to learn a language because they hardly ever use it or it could be the other way around. Anya is one of the example of "the other way around". I think she speaks better in English or Japanese. Reading and writing is considered easy in Indonesian, so I guess that's not a problem. Especially how Indonesia's spoken language could varies from one place to another. So yeah, English might be easier in that term.
Dissing my girl Miko like that smh.
F for mikochi
Not that I speak that much English but I can at times forget the Danish word but know it in English, lol
Not gonna lie... I always thought all the japanese can read kanji. But its not true..this is quite surprising 😮
Because there are a lot of kanjis. Just like how not everyone who speaks Mandarin can know every hanzi in existence.
There's no point in knowing all of them no one even knows how many there are. But the number is at least 50,000. There's an official list of kanji necessary for everyone to learn to be considered litarate, of which there are only about 2100. In China, the list is bigger at about 3000.
I mean, there's a lot of Kanji, remembering each and every one of them and their meaning (which is also not limited to one EACH) is even harder than remembering Hiragana and Katakana combined. Or is there a trick to it?
I feel like most of them are taught in school and forgotten afterwards like most math and science stuff we usually don't use in real life (unless it's part of your job).
From my own study on the subject, I'd say that the only real "trick" to it is the same trick that works on anything learnable. More than anything else, memory is based on repetition. So no matter what genius tricks you come up with, you're never gonna get the job done looking at each character once or twice and then moving on to the next. You gotta keep going back to the old lessons every so often, until they start to become second nature.
An easy analogy to make with learning is a staircase, where learning the early stuff lets you step up to the later stuff, but it's actually misleading here. Because the best practice ends up being to take a step forward, jump up and down on it a couple times, then step up one more, hop around a time or two, step back DOWN before going up, and just overall take the weirdest path up a flight of stairs of all time.
Rather than that monstrosity of an analogy, think of it instead like Jump King or Getting Over It. You do your best to climb as far as you can, but you find yourself repeatedly falling down and having to redo the early areas repeatedly. As you do, you get better and better at specific sections, until you can breeze through them and speedrun your way back up to whatever section you're still learning for the first time. That's the REAL learning system.
And as far as the learning of Kanji specifically goes, the way I learned all of this, and was able to confirm that it works, is because there's an app that focuses itself around this approach of revisiting old kanji at just the right times to best stick in your mind. It's called WaniKani, and though it's far from free, it's helped me a ton. (And then I stopped using it. Need to get back into that...)
However, the same trick should work on other apps as well, you'll just have to make sure to redo those older reviews manually rather than having the app keep track of it all for you.
Whatever you're learning: Repetition is key. It's the only way it will stick.
Japanese: difficult-to-read kanji are difficult to read, so you don't have to read them.
Hololive: Kanji are difficult to read, so you don't have to read them
There is this difference.
Miko speaks elite. And she is not the best at that either.
I remember when she had too subtititle her own CM because and she still have problems
No. She IS Elite. You just don't think so because you're not Elite.
Anya and Baelz, JP members
If you can read kanji
Your actually better than an average Japanese person
Kanji IS difficult. One character can have different meanings, both on its own and when combined with others. And one word can also be interpreted with different Kanji, which can lead to different meanings as well. It boggles the mind quite so. Furigana should be implemented in more readings.
I'm not saying they are not difficult, but I don't think it's due to multiple meanings considering English words also have a bunch of different meanings.
@@hydrargyruschaldaecus2572I agree. In English, a word can mean different things, AND the pronunciation can also differ. English is a chimera of many other languages, so mix ups and confusion are bound to happen.
Most of the kanji don't have different meanings. There are rare cases like 弁 (ben), but that is mostly because the reforms of the japanese goverment simplified 3 kanji (辨, 瓣, 辯; all of them with the same on'yomi) into one. Also even if they have the same reading like 直す (naosu) and 治す (naosu), you can infer the nuance because the context: 直す (to fix things), 治す (to cure or cure).
Kanji could be tricky but to be honest, remember transitive and intrasitive verbs is much more of a challenge in the long run.
miko rank of speak Japanese among HoloEN is she on no3/4....among HoloID she will be on rank no4/5...haha sasuga elite rank
Gak usah jauh-jauh lah wong orang jawa timur di Indonesia belum tentu semuanya paham bahasa jawa tengah apalagi yg sudah tingkatan kromonya😅 aku sih salah satunya
Beda kek nya ... mereka ngerti bahasa jepang tp susah baca kanji nya.. klo di indo rata rata bs baca alfabet
even japanese cant read kanji so anya??
Anya is yago daughter of course she have to be good at japanese because someday she'll inherited all of the yago dream 😂
They are referring to rare and uncommon kanjis. Kanjis that appear very commonly most Japanese can read them
I'm just barely getting to Kanji and I can see what they mean. So confusing