Torchwood's Most Disappointing Episode
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- Despite playing with some great concepts and being a good episode on the surface, does Torchwood's 'They Keep Killing Suzie' actually end up being the biggest missed opportunity of the show?
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#DoctorWho #Torchwood #Review
Hope you enjoy the video! I know you've been really liking these Torchwood reviews recently which is why it pains me to say that this is going to be the last for a couple of weeks. The schedule has just been too tough to keep up with so I'm taking a few weeks off and then coming back with the rest of Series 1 (and yes I will be doing Series 2, 3 and 4 as well) Also, obligatory Patreon plug: www.patreon.com/harbowholmes
Are you still going to be doing the Doctor Who reviews on a Thursday?
Yes! It's just the double uploads I'm taking a break from
@@HarboWholmes Hey man, take a break. It's your job, your job shouldn't make you stressful. Stay strong brother :)
I'm happy you're putting your well being first. Goodluck
@@HarboWholmes I think you went too far with the video name, it wasn't that bad.
*That’s the thing with gloves... they always come in pairs.*
Boi
So there's two infinity gauntlets? shit.
@@Purplox I heard Thanos has one. He might have a resurrection gauntlet aswell 🤔
@@Purplox The second appears to be on Asgard. Or at the very least the Asgard one is one hand and Thanos's glove is the other hand.
*That's the thing with pears... they always come in gloves.*
Suzie killing her dad ruins the episode. It was implied that she became obssedssed with the glove because of his illness and the risk of him dying and gives her sympathy but the fact she seems to kill him anger seems to invalidate that desire to cure death from sympathetic reasons gets confusing and apparently just selfishness>
Just a little theory, maybe she saw him as ruining her life through giving her the obsession?
2:41 "How well Torchwood hides itself from the public"? -- Cuts to the Pizza girl showing up at the base in cyberwoman
Why do they ask the police for help? Call dominos
@@nightowl8477 Two things I wanted from the Chibnall era based of Torchwood: an episode to end with Jodie driving in on a tractor and shotgunning everyone's legs and the day being saved by pizza delivery (a pizza ex machina if you will)
SHADO does better job hiding itself from the public than Torchwood.
Did du du du sud du du sud us dudododod dododod DOD dosoddododdododo dodododdodododddododododdoododdodiddodsododods so. UFO theme
Haha UFO reference
Oh yeah the actor who played Detective Swanson was also Jabe (Tree person) from ‘The End of the World’
Mondasian man, that's a cybusman on you profile pic
Thank you, i knew i knew her from somewhere!
And Roz Forrester, the 7th Doctor’s companion, in Big Finish!
I liked this episode overall, but I agree that it mishandled Suzie.
"They keep mishandling Suzie "
Nice pfp
Most people in the comments of the last post: I love this, probably my Favourite episode
Harbo: *DISAPOINTED!*
I always thought that Gwen was able to use the gauntlet because she might be slightly psychic, like Gwyneth from The Unquiet Dead.
I thought that too. She does seem very empathic maybe not fully psychic .
Makes sense since Gwen is obviously a descendant of the character from Unquiet Dead. Maybe runs in the family.
"Random Shoes" episode really brought that into focus for me the way Gwen could hear Eugene
Spatial genetic multiplicity; she looks exactly like gwyneth due to one, so it’s not too far-fetched for her to also have that ability
i’ve never understood why they couldn’t just have it be a coincidence for Gwen and Suzie to exchange life energy and that Suzie has to make a moral choice allow Gwen to die so that Suzie can watch her father die or let herself die because she’s already dead
Yeh I agree.
When you mentioned Random Shoes I got an ad for running shoes right after. They're listening!!!
Always loved the last bit of the episode when Jack buts a cap in Suzie with no remorse
Yeah, this trope of "this was all part of my masterplan" is always dumb because there are so many variables out of the villains' control and yet somehow it all goes their way. It's why I was really annoyed when Missy revealed that she put Clara and the Doctor together.
I mean, she did keep them together (See "Deep Breath") so who knows how much she influenced background events, especially with a TARDIS?
They really did Suzie dirty in this episode, I would say the Big Finish audios with her are better but they still didn’t quite nail how she was handled in Everything Changes.
can you give me some good titles please?
@@nicolebee3283 Big Finish released three stories with Suzie featuring. The two from the monthly range featuring her as the prominent character are Moving Target and Sync (the latter also features Blon Fel-Fotch from the Doctor Who episodes Aliens of London/World War 3 and Boom Town) and you'll be able to pick those up for about £8 each. The third is a special release featuring a massive ensemble cast of characters related to Torchwood from Doctor Who, Torchwood the TV series and various Big Finish Torchwood releases; this is called The Torchwood Archive, and is roughly £13.
Below are links to all three - you just need an account to buy these and you can decide if you want them on CD or download (either way, you get the download immediately after purchase). Hope that helps 😊
Moving Target: www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/torchwood-moving-target-1392
Sync: www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/torchwood-sync-1713
The Torchwood Archive: www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/torchwood-the-torchwood-archive-1470
I was way too young to be watching torchwood when it first came out and the whole "death is nothingness but there's something lurking" thing that they did messed me up, I'd have panic attacks when I thought about death for months afterwards
Same. I watched new who from day one (i was four) and my sister began watching torchwood a couple years later so I did as well. ( I was around 7 maybe) and yeah really messed me up. The first episode I watched was countryside
Funny enough the classic who comics show heaven existing with one instance showing the cyberman named Kroton going to heaven, so chibnall already fucked the continuity. The only thing that could patch things up is that the thing lurking is just copies of the person's memories and the glove creates an AI of some sort with the person's memories.
@@mystic_mimi21 Watching Countrycide at 7 would probably traumatise me too man, don't blame you
That's just regular mortal terror I'm pretty sure everyone gets it
@@thegamingcyberman149the darkness thing is really only shown for people who are resurrected through odd means, such as jack, suzie, owen and the guy in the ep1 opening, but then in the old tv movie grace is resurrected by the eye of harmony she says death is nothing to fear and then a lot of other characters have great things to say about the afterlife, its probably the case that they only see the darkness when being brought back through the glove and that being the way back and the specter following them through to the world, jack saw darkness because rose fully changed the universe so that essentially he never died so he wouldn't of gone anywhere to see anything, thank you for coming to my ted talk
I always wondered what would have happened if both gloves were used at the same time. Obviously there was no way of seeing really but always intrigued me
They did that in 'The Sins of Captain John'. There wasn't a time limit and you could stop and start as many times as you like.
@@somerandomguy2073 oooh, I shall have to check it out!
What do you call a funeral ship? A sea hearse.
16:40 not really, no. As this episode purposefully establishes, Suzie knew Torchwood would keep her body in storage, as she knew they'd keep the Resurrection Gauntlet. Ergo, as long as Torchwood is around, Suzie would have eventually - inevitably - been brought back to life. She just used the Retcon plan to speed up the process. It's perfectly rational and shows her cold, logistical thinking. She even accounted for her own death in her experimentations with the Gauntlet.
''You got to admit, that is not bad. I'm picking her for my team''
Ok I understand this is from the early 2000’s but there is no way I can see an unironic slow motion walk with Guy Fieri sunglasses.
0:42 "Upon a second viewing."
Me, having watched seasons 1-3, at least 7 times: *Amateur.*
I really enjoy this episode~ Suzie played them all so well. I do get why Suzie defaulting to a generic villain, doesn't do the base idea, the justice it deserves.
"The greater good..."
"stop it!"
The resurrection glove reminds me a lot, of rassilon's gauntlet especially during his first appearance in new who.
Probably a re-used prop
It’s the same prop
The fact Torchwood is in a shared universe with Doctor Who makes the reveal about the afterlife even more disturbing. You wonder if this is one of the dark secrets the Time Lords know about and it's why they developed regeneration
Although I see where you are coming from, I personally adore this episode. Suzie's plan does seem a bit contrived and perhaps they could have made it more accidental, I still don't think she's an out-an-out villain. The scene near the end when Jack shoot her and she smiles I always read as her being pleased that she didn't die. Plus the scene between her and Gwen driving always hits an emotional moment for me; even though Suzie has killed for the glove, she was almost a victim of Torchwood like Ianto or Tosh - being isolated and taken for granted that they turn elsewhere for comfort, which can often lead to devastating consequences (Lisa & Mary.)
Anyway, any Suzie fans NEED to read the novel, "Long Time Dead" it's awesome! :D
Suzie's plan was so complicated and grande, I think it would be better if only the story arc was mentioned/teased in bits on previous episodes - kind of Bad Wolf-style perhaps. I love Indira Varma and her scenes with Gwen are definitely one of the best, but that doesn't make the plot less messy imo.
I thought this episode was really meh until that amazing ending. especially the Ianto line about gloves coming in pairs.
Can wait for the ‘Consequences’ cut from Key and Peele in the Zygon Invasion and the Zygon Inversion!
So far away in the schedule I think.
I think that the idea is that Suzie saw the horrors of being part of Torchwood, that she wanted out and did all this as a way to do so. I don't think she started off with that idea, maybe she was just wanting someone to talk to. I assumed she had made several ways the Torchwood crew would have to bring her back. She isn't evil, it's just so hard to get out of Torchwood that she had to do all of this. She didn't want to have to kill Gwen, but had become so desensitised by working for Torchwood that she doesn't see it as that big of a price to pay for survival.
just wanna say thanks for getting me into this show, i chanced across one of your doctor who videos that led me down a rabbit hole of re watching all of new who and now binging all of torchwood.
i gotta say i love the show but am i the only person who really doesnt like s4, like i binged s3 in one day but i cant even bring myself to keep watching s4
I remember a bit in this episode with Owen deliberately saying Max's trigger word in front of him when he's in the Torchwood cell, setting him off. Max, the innocent victim who has been made a murderer by one of Torchwood's own; brainwashed, driven insane, and condemned to imprisonment. All it did was help me hate Captain Rohipnol even more. Still, makes the scene where Torchwood have to swallow their pride and get rescued by the police all the more satisfying.
I am gonna patiently wait for miracle day review although it will provaly take you a while but it will be worth it
I'm doing a rewatch with my son and we liked this episode. I agree there are some serious plot holes but first time watching it's a lot of fun. At the end when Jack shoots Suzie after saying "not one bit" we both cheered. It's a great Captain Jack moment
Reading the title- is it though?...
Although I do wish there was more episodes with Suzie so we do empathize with her more.
And yeah the ending was very cheesy. Especially that pop song that plays after the end.
I always Took it as her only beginning her plan late into her job with torchwood when she had already worked with the glove for an extensive amount of time and thus understood it well enough for her to come up with such a plan. I always veiwed It as, the planning isn't the human Suzie but the twisted bent torchwood Suzie who had used the glove for way to long. and that the short bursts of humanity we see in her are the only thing left of her old self that this shows how far gone she was when she killed herself. I never felt It ruined the episode cause I felt it made it so there were two different Suzies in a sense, the one afraid of the dark and desprate to live, and the other broken by torchwood and made into a monster.
That bold guy they reserect is my best mates uni teacher. I saw one of his plays last year
I think this is a ok episode but i do think this episode might of been better if Suzie was more of a character in the series like if she killed herself a little bit into the series. I think the few audios with Suzie in torchwood are quite good and give her a little more character to make her a bit more defined.
I think its interesting how Suzie discusses whats after death like darkness and something was out there moving foreshadowing a coming episode. She does seem a little bit afraid of what was in the darkness. Everyone is ok in this episode but Gwen taking her on a trip is kinda out of nowhere tbh like doing something out of left field to further the story even if its said in the episode. The ending kinda falls flat but leaves a intrigue with gloves coming in pairs. People think its the same glove Rassalon has in the 10th Doctors last series while they look similar i think they are seperate objects. Although would be cool if they were connected
I’ve always wondered what did jack see when he died by the daleks on the space station
You mentioned that the episode felt like a crime drama? It ended like one too. Sympathetic character heel turns into a mustache twirling villain in under an hour
I am looking forward to the relationship between jack and ianto, for me it was the best part of the series so I hope you talk about it
Before I watched this, I was like "How was it disappointing?! I loved it!" But then I got thinking back to it, and realised the exact problem that you talk about.
The episode was so much better with Suzie being just someone desperate to cling to life, with Mark just being an unfortunate casualty of Suzie's understandable need for human contact while still maintaining secrecy. Suzie as a character who just got sucked down the circle of her own depression and mistakes is so much more interesting than Suzie as a villain with an evil plot for immortality. In Everything Changes she was just someone who was simultaneously too curious and too disconnected for her own good, and just really didn't want to die so soon for something that she had never planned to do. She was distraught after killing Jack and at the prospect of killing the innocent Gwen, so to make her a cackling villain seems weird. It does work as a character progression for someone who has already died, but by making it retroactive, suddenly her characterisation in EC is the thing that is inconsistent, making her a straight-up deceptive villain all along, and retroactively weakening that episode as a result.
I have to agree. It always irks me when a solid episode throws a twist in just for the sake of having one.
Been watching these along with your reviews. Wanted to shout out an idol that I’m now glad to call a friend, Matt Davies-Kreye. Singer from Funeral For A Friend and that guy singing in this nightclub scene. I’m a musician and a Doctor Who/Torchwood fan.. talk about combining 2 worlds
I can't wait for the children of earth review
I really like Suzies plan for the most part. Its pretty smart, but it does get a little silly with her escape and the lock down.
Nothing triggers my anxiety quicker than Torchwood's portrayal of the afterlife. The thought of nothing but darkness once we die gives me heart palpitations.
What's funny is that in classic who comics heaven as far as i know existed with a scene having a cyberman known as kroton actually head to heaven, so chibnall already fucked with the timeline. Then again the thing that was stated to be "lurking around" is more likely copies of memories of the dead person, meaning that the revived person isn't actually the person but more of an AI with their memories.
I can't get over the continuity error in the climax of this episode: When Gwen and Suzie are driving to the ferry, one minute it's night, the next (Owen says Gwen has minutes left so it can't have been long after) it's bright sunshine on the pier. Ruined any immersion I had, along with Suzie's cackling!
Hey! I just watched your Inside Number 9 video and it reminded me how amazing that TV show is. So I decided to rewatch it with my boyfriend (who is seeing it for the first time) and we’re putting them into a tier list! I’d love to see reviews of Inside number 9 from you (or even a tier list episode) I’d love to see where we agree and disagree haha
I just love that this episode features the band Funeral For a Friend
Here's my overly nerdy theory. The Resurrection Gauntlet(s) are tools created by the Master to redownload a mind from the Nethersphere into a body should the need arise. Remember, all human minds were really being uploaded to a computer for years before Capaldi's first finale.
It IS very disappointing. It was a character drama which Chibnall(head writer)excels at yet he misunderstood Susie, probably ruining this episode's main attraction.
This is literally my favourite episode.
I did really like this episode I agree with your point by saying about the Whole bug villain twist and how it doesn’t really do anything positive for the episode. I think if they would have integrated her back into the team rather than killing her again at the end would have been a better solution and of the whole unrealistic plan was removed it could have made way for a better series finale giving someone else a try and taking down the beast in the finale and would have been a better character redemption arc because she would have went full circle and died for torchwood rather than dying by torchwood. I feel she’s too good if a character to only have been given 2 episodes there would have been a lot more to discover about her character rather than being rushed into 2 episodes. If the story arc would have carried on about the murders for longer in the series would have helped for a better twist come the end of the series and that way she could sacrifice herself as a redemption arc rather than dying as just a murderer
The sex gas was the worst episode
🤣🤣
Ah, my favourite episode.
I do really like this one, but I really enjoy watching your criticism. Keep on making these videos!!
I really love these Torchwood videos
It’s hard to recognize Varma without the shite that was Dorne around her 😝
Suzie’s plan reminds me of the Joker’s orchestration to abduct Lao in “The Dark Knight” (2008)
This is one of the best episodes of torchwood imho
For a disappointing story about life after death... I’d point to Dead Man Walking.
When I first watched the show this episode kind of freaked me out.
Where you mention about Suzie wanting to cure death, it makes me wonder what she would have thought of the whole situation in series 4.
@dr103 Yeah, that would have been interesting. Could have worked in some kind of backstory that she worked with the Three Families (like how later Torchwood by Big Finish tied the families into the Committee) and that could have explained part of the problems with this story.
I thought Raxillon(?) Had the other gauntlet and was gonna use it on the master?
This is actually one of my favourite episodes from season 1. I really like the Suzie twist.
nice video once again man
Where's that video of the pink haired woman in the red dress from?
I tend to skip this episode or I have it as a background episode whilst I do something else. Like it's alright but it's not great. I'm not gonna rave about it. It's just there. Like I feel it is literally only relevant as a set up episode for the series 1 finale and for series 2. Apart from that it just very meh.
Talking so much about how she isn’t a typical villain and you can have sympathy for her... I think you’ve forgotten it’s simply wrong that she murdered 3 innocent people just to experiment with a glove... she isn’t a good person from the outset.
In the original episode, it’s very much implied that obsession with an otherwise noble endeavour warped her mind causing her to commit said murders in an attempt to figure out how to make the glove’s effect permanent, she’s clearly become detached from her humanity like the rest of the team, and disillusioned with the job, given how in Torchwood which is to say the show’s own narrative it tends to feel like Earth is treated as some great rubbish tip, dumping ground for all the things that other life in existence doesn’t want to deal with. In her second episode she comes up with this elaborate plan to force herself back into being alive, that relies on taking advantage of a tiny chance of life energy transference through the glove during resurrection bringing her back at the expense of Gwen, then setting up a way to force the base into lockdown through a plan within her main plain which she set in motion before she even died, which relied on Torchwood locking Max Tresilian in a cell, and having him activate lockdown through a code poem, (that’s card carrying moustache twirling generic super villain behaviour not present in Indira’s original performance as Suzie in Everything Changes.)
So they completely failed to see the potential opportunity to have her give birth to a weevil baby, it's like they're not even trying to wright a horror opera.
Your reviews are more entertaining than the episodes.
Every review of Torchwood seems to give the same impression so far; The show had a ton of potential and kept fucking it up by making its villains too simplistic and one-dimensionally evil, throwing out any hope of complexity and moral ambiguity. One-dimensional evil works very well in Doctor Who, because the Doctor is - despite his occasional stumbles - a heroic character as a whole. Torchwood.. aren't.
Detective Swanson looks GOOD!
I haven't seen this one
Loving the torchwood
I liked this episode
Surprised Everything Changes hasn't show up on things that didn't age well lists. The douche doctor is shown as basically using an alien roofie whenever he wants to get busy since he doesn't have the time for a relationship. I liked Torchwood at first, but lost interest on repeated viewings. Interesting ideas, but tries too hard to be dark. It's like a high school treatment of something they liked as a kid, this is Dr Who, but DARK. Some good episodes, but got increasingly scattered over the seasons.
The episode doesn't make any sense - So she has this plan of how she can come back if she dies somehow, and plans to revenge her dad etc.......but the way she died in the first place....was killing herself....
The Gauntlet... why would you just make one?
Have you mentioned this to Thanos? Marvel?
While I can definitely see the flaws you outline I still view this episode as one of the best of s1, even though that's not saying much
In my opinion, one of the best Torchwood episodes. Period.
Will you be making a video about the torchwood audiobook where jack gets pregnant?
I just want to see the bit where he fires the equivalent of a potato through a peashooter....
Oh wait, no I don't
It's not the best episode when you think about it. It's quite oddly paced.
I liked it. I liked Suzie too
I really liked this episode
im actually getting more excited for your reviews than the actual doctor who series lmao
ur channel be like "defending the despised" then make me dislike episodes i used to like ;c
I completely agree
Except i think it goes from A to D. i really hated the twist.
How confidently you explain that there’s no afterlife cracks me up, honestly, as though you know for certain. I can’t tell if you’re telling me your personal beliefs or the shows 😂😂 good review, though. You’re right - would be so much better if it was morally ambiguous
Love your content, can’t wait to children of earth!
❣️
I don't get you sometimes, man. This and Captain Jack Harkness are the only good episodes this series imo. This one's kinda perfect to me - _HOW CAN YOU RATE COUNTRYSIDE HIGHER??_
You’re joking, there’s no way this one is better than countryside
People have different opinions man.
@@georgebellamy32 aha sorry I didn’t mean for it to come off as so aggressive
Pooooooooooooop
I am the 9,999 view XD