Shogun (2024) Episode 10 Review SEASON FINALE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Episode 10 of Shogun, titled "A Dream of the Dream" sees everything come together for the grand finale, as Toranaga's plan comes into full fruition, and Blackthorne faces his destiny.
My review of episodes 1 and 2: • Shogun (2024) Episodes...
My review of episode 3: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 4: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 5: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 6: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 7: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 8: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
My review of Episode 9: • Shogun (2024) Episode ...
Interview with the Historical Advisor for Shogun: • Shogun (2024) Historic...
Check out my review of the 1980 Adaptation and my initial thoughts of the original book it is all based off of!
Review of the 1980 Adaptation: • Shogun (1980) | Samura...
My thoughts on the book: • I Finally Read Shogun ...
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Blackthorne's future is not "the" future, it's a dream while he passed away after the explosion. One possible future, that he knows he will regret. That's why he decided to change that, and offer his life to Toranaga in exchange for him to end the persecution over the villagers. He did throw the cross away in the lake, with Fuji. The dream sequence has the cross: he doesn't want to regret.
I was beginning to think I was the only one who got it. It was pretty evident to me. Maybe it was a little too subtle for the average viewer.
@@dstarling61I mean… the show did show us flashbacks before in a similar manner, don’t think it’s too much of a stretch for most people to assume it’s a flash forward.
The only thing that really gives away the fact it’s a dream is that cross
The line, "You don't tell the dead, the future" is a pointer.
the Cross he held in the hand is a good proof of this... in the Dream, he still had it when old... in reality, he dropped it into the lake - he made a choice to change his future (from the dream)
Exactly 💯
Man. We really need a series that starts with Nobunaga and runs all the way through Ieyasu becoming Shogun. The actual history is compelling enough it doesnt need fiction. Sad to see this end though.
though not focused on Nobunaga, I recommend watching "Sanada Maru (2016)" 50 episodes full of cunning and mind games (like Shogun) told from the point of view of the Sanada clan from the fall of Takeda to the Osaka Campaign.
@@Apathylex Watch "Dousuru Ieyasu 2023". It tell full story of Ieyasu from child to battle of Osaka.
@@namsonchu1527 Tokugawa Ieyasu had 3 versions of Taiga drama that are about him.
1. Tokugawa Ieyasu (1983)
2. Aoi Tokugawa Sandai (2000)
3. Dou Suru Ieyasu (2023) as you said. It’s made for modern audience which you could interpret as both good and bad way.
I really want a Fire Emblem-esque turn-based strategy game that goes exactly like that. No dramatic changes to the story, the story would be amazing enough if it stays true to history. That would be my dream Sengoku Jidai game.
Netflix has a great acted out documentary that covers all this. It’s called Age Of The Samurai. I watched it by chance before Shogun released and it was cool to see the parallels.
The ending feels like and ending without and ending.
They spent their budget in early episodes so they can only talk about the battle and spout poetry with long lingering shots of characters posing in nice landscapes. Toranaga narrated the ending so we can use our imagination.
@@jonfreeman9682Why are people acting like we were promised a battle when the source and the series were clearly more focused on the political lead up to it?
@@Zarastro54 nah bro the trailer I watched made it seem like there was gonna be at least something resembling one. BASED ON WHAT WAS PUT IN THE TRAILER, so don’t be surprised when people are disappointed that the very thing that was being advertised to them was not even shown in detail, if that was the intention then don’t advertise your show as if that’s what your gonna deliver, yall fail to realize that this is literally the first and I believe ONLY SEASON, so we haven’t spent that much time with these characters for it to have the impact it deserves. The finale in idea is a good one told over 2 seasons but to run through it and end on such a wet fart then showing us a poor cgi glimpse of a grand battle before cutting away is quite the let down. That doesn’t mean the show is bad I give it a 8.5 and would recommend to anyone but I myself and understandably others don’t see the genius behind the ending.
@@Zarastro54 for me, i wasn't expecting a battle, although i ain't gonna complain if there were. But the finale just feels like something is missing, and felt like we were speeding through things slightly idk.
@@sirsquid577Agree! This show is phenomenal. But when i watched the ending, i feel like something's missing
feels incomplete..all that buildup for that ending? ngl its disappointing
Unfortunately I liked the show less and less as it progressed. It's missing so much from the books and changes so much, Yokoham etc., everything happens in/around Anjiro, Osaka and a little bit of Edo.
I really don't get moving the seppuku moment to the very end of the show, what's the point at that point?
Also I much prefer the book's end of Toranaga's inner monologue concluding in admitting he needs/wants Anjin to be his one single friend.
I liked the show's version of him explaining himself to Yabu though, though I wished it had also concluded in calling Anjin his friend, instead of 'he makes me laugh' (when we never saw him laugh once and Anjin only seemed to annoy him).
Perfectly stated
Well yeah, the adaptation's goal was to make the Japanese characters more faithful to Japanese culture and history rather than seen through a western lense. Blackthorne is Toranaga's useful and amusing pet prisoner, not his bosom friend. Like Mariko explains, they have three hearts; one they show to the world, one to their friends, and one only they know. As the end reveals, Toranaga's true character is very different than he appears at first glance.
“If there is no Sekigahara we riot.”
Well time to get our Kamas and Nisakus.
In all seriousness I was kind off disappointed when they didn’t fully show Sekigahara, but then I remembered something Toranaga said.
“Why is it… that those that have never been in battle, are so eager to fight one?”
Commence RIOTING
Also the point in this fictional timeline is that the battle was won before fought , so showing it would have been gratuitous, even though as you say it would have fed the fan hunger for more. It felt appropriate that they kept close to the book as a result
Also goes to how secret hearts work.
Budget bro..budget...
@@nowyouknow6023 The CGI in that scene was dreadful
I like that they found a way to give us what was just Toranaga’s internal monologue in the book, through his conversation with Yabu. That was the true ending of the story. The final scenes were important, but also extraneous. It would have been interesting to see Sekigahara, but as you noted, it’s merely a footnote in the book. Overall this felt like a rush to the finish, and it’s unfortunate that they didn’t establish the friendship between Toranaga and Blackthorne, as it’s an important point.
That final scene was necessary to basically explain Toranaga plan and ending as I'm guessing they didn't have the budget to actually shoot an epic battle like GOT or LOTR style. It's a TV show so we'll let it slide. At least it was a poetic ending.
@@jonfreeman9682Absolutely. They did it with a voiceover in 1980, and it’s all explained in Toranaga’s thoughts in the book. I thought this was an excellent way to handle it, and it gave Yabu some extra screen time, which I loved.
in real life Adams was good friend to the shogun
@@jeffa4822he sure was! The book makes that friendship very clear. The show… not so much.
That would be the only gripe I have about not only this episode, but the entire series. I loved it all from start to finish. But the part where Toranaga says Anjin makes him laugh, I was like really? When? Perhaps if they had the dance scene from the original or some kind of private moment. But here it fell a little flat. Everything else was simply amazing.
The last few episodes were very makeshift, glued together, emotionally improbable, and silly (particularly the second “I will kill myself for the village.” scene.). And Mariko having a sword ignorant sailor being her second when she decides to commit suicide? Totally laughable. And the super dumb idea of having Blackthorne back in England… nope - it felt very unwieldy, especially since Blackthorne had, by this time, become little more than a minor character in the plot. I loved the Yabu “mad scenes” as well as the final dialog between Yabu and Toranaga. So well acted. Again, the entire series should have totally sidelined the Blackthorne character (as they started to do toward the end), as we were all interested in the intrigues and shenanigans of the central Japanese characters. By the end, I couldn’t care less if Blackthorne lived or died. In fact, his emotional apoplexy at the end made me wish Toranaga had not stopped him committing suicide. So annoying! As a final note - why was it always raining? Why always grey and gloomy? It felt like it was filmed in winter in Scotland, not Japan.
I feel as though they did great whipping up my emotions but and getting me invested but fumbled when it came to an ending
I took it that Blackthorne was goading Toranaga by proclaiming himself an enemy. It was a desperate attempt to dissociate himself from the consequences to the village, and thus spare them.
I agree about not showing the battle. But it fits Toranaga as a schemer who wanted to avoid war. I think it would have been more satisfying if we got another couple of episodes to actually show the "battle" and resolve it in person.
I also think you can't really watch this show based on what actually happened in the history. The actual Tokugawa was very cunning and brutal and most importantly doesn't give a lick about hideoyoshi's son. The Toranaga here seems to be reserved about the idea of he wants to take over osaka.. and flatly being shown ishido is the one pushing him to the brink.
Shows are shows, history is history. I also dun think we need to see sekigahara.. It serves no purpose. We know the outcome.
@@SiD19884 The end segment with Yabushige shows that Toaranaga was likely always aiming to become shogun though. I think Toranaga is just as cunning and heartless as Tokugawa. He is also just as good at controlling the press about himself.
He tells Toranaga he is the enemy so Toranaga doesn't owe him anything so no need to destroy a village for him. I can't help but feel the show ran out of budget so decided to end it with philosophical ramblings and talking about a battle instead of showing it and padding the runtime with long lingering shots of admittedly nice cinematography. It does seem like a long buildup to a nothing burger.
@@404Dannyboy yeah it was a bit at odds how toranaga acts with the heir and his conversations with the old lady. Maybe if there was part 2, wed know.
Historical ieyasu didnt gun for shogun after sekigahara.. it was only when he started to get threatened by hideyori's character as he turned 17.
I don't think that Toranaga wanted to avoid war, everybody knew that war was inevitable, with what Toranaga wanted there was no way to have done it peacefully. What Toranaga didn't want was war where he had to face not only Ishido's forces, but those of all of the Regents, and the Heir. He didn't want to go to war being greatly outnumbered, Crimson Sky was all about evening the odds up in his favor.
I have two things I want to bring up for the finale.
1.) I couldn't understand Toranaga's test of Anjin destroying the Erasmus. Was he testing if he would sacrifice himself for the village? Also Toranaga says by the time he rebuilds the ship, he will have to destroy it again. Does he mean to have the Anjin in a Sisyphus type situation?
2.) I wish the final defection at Sekigahara was more for the Catholic daimyo instead of Ochiba. I feel like they had built the defection of the Catholic daimyo well throughout the series. I think it would have been better for Ochiba and the Heir's army to hold off but show up during the battle and see what happens.
Regarding Ochiba's actual decision to pull out the Heir's army, I was thinking that she would have an agreement with Toranaga to be sent far away with the Heir, as it seems that his safety is the only thing she cares about.
Overall, the finale felt more like an epilogue. I wish there was more definitive display of Toranaga's victory but I am satisfied with what they did to show that.
It's worth mentioning that in the book, Erasmus being destroyed by Toranaga was not a test at all, but a gesture to win over Kiyama and Ohnoshi. And the main reason Blackthorne is able to live hangs on this fact, as well as the respect he earns from Kiyama for saving Mariko from disgrace
I maintain that John and Mariko's relationship was deeply under developed to the point where it really doesn't have the gravity it is trying maintain in episode 9.
It has a beginning and an end, however the middle is nearly non-existent.
Agreed! And Anjin had more chemistry with Yabushige than Mariko. 😂
@jool7793
As I've posted previously, it's not about focus, but about it's near lack of existence. Nothing shown in this series justifies John asking Mariko to live for him.
In the novel, their relationship was not simply about romance, it was about the bridging of different cultures and finding understanding in between. Shogun, like most of Clavell's books, is in large part about the clash of cultures, and finding understanding among the myriad of differences.
There are so many layers between John and Mariko. She's a Japanese Catholic, and he's an English Protestant. He's travelled the world, whereas she's never left Japan. He values personal freedom, where she values duty and obedience. He's a stranger in a strange land and she offers him a path to understand how to navigate these new strange waters.
Their relationship grows over time to become one of trust and mutual understanding. In large part without her he would not have survived and prospered. And sadly by the end the only way for him to live is for her to meet her demise.
@@stevebubbie1126 Blackthorne had more romance towards Fuji (someone who’s in the friendzone) than Mariko and Mariko had more sexual tension with Ochiba than Blackthorne
Seriourly? Their romance brewed much longer (for nearly 9 episodes) than the barbarian boiled alive.
I think the relationship between mariko and blackthorne was balanced . The show perfectly showed their relationship without making the show a romantic cjm cringe. I enjoyed the show because it focused on the politics more instead of making it about Mariko and blacthorne. The people complaining about not getting a love story are watching the series as a romantic com where blsvkthorme and Mariko are the main characters. This show rightfully mafe the show about politics of japan by sidelinning the love story
show had a strong start but around episode 3 and 4 it started going down hill for me. not a terrible show over all if it alright. but I still prefer the 1980 version. if i have never seen the of show or read the book i would probably think it was way better.
I think one of the problems people like me (who loved the book and the first TV series) have is that is difficult to not compare the old vs the new. How much of what we don't like is because this series tell a different version of the history? It is true that Mariko-san and Toranaga-sama where the masterminds of the original history too but in the old one is much more clear how Toranaga is really this patient and masterful strategist. And Blackthorne role, who evolves from a mercantile and opportunistic character towards a true friend and asset to the future Shogun, was much clear. All over this show he seems to be lost in translation. And Toranaga also, like is a little bit of dumb luck what saves him at the end (like the dead of his son). In any case, maybe for someone that is completely new to the history, it will be good enough. They were moments of greatness, but definitively I fail to understand why only 9 chapters and not 10 or even 12. BTW: on the original series (and book) is not Alvito who saves Blackthorne from the Catholics, is the Padre Visitador. The chief of the order in Asia himself.
I'm surprised people fail to see that the changes made are both intentional and logical for a production that tried to be more faithful to Japanese culture at the time. It puts Blackthorne's position in a very different light where rather than being the valued friend of Toranaga, he is in fact a prisoner. The whole episode is about him realizing and coming to terms with that, and doing what he can to make the most of the life he has now. Appreciating the friends faithful to him and the village that became his home.
The 2024 FX series and the 1980s series suffer from a similar problem; time, or the lack there of it.
I would guess it was more a lack of budget
Agree. It's just so hard to pull off a series of this caliber. Took years to give us 10 episodes. Almost outside human abilities to produce the 20 episode, high production value series that would fully cover a novel, and turn a profit.
Yup. I think it should have been 2 or 3 full seasons. They could have got more in depth with everything. Seamed a little rushed
@@justinian420 Game of Thrones managed to pull it off for 4 straight seasons, the show only went to crap when they ran out of source material.
Plenty of time if they didn't waste it. It does seem like this version ran out of budget in the final episodes. It just ran out of steam and ended with a whimper.
My impression of why Blackthorne declared himself as the enemy to Torenaga is not only to get him to spare the village, but perhaps put him out of his misery from his grief. Kind of like suicide by Cop, by forcing a policeman kill him by brandishing a weapon, but in this instance declaring himself as an enemy, because he would surely die if he was Torenaga's enemy. After he was refused, he decided to take Mariko's example by mirroring her phrasing before her death
That’s exactly how I saw it. He was so done with everything at that point and had no more sense of purpose.
1980s series wins it for me, it just structured and paced better, explains more and better and gives side characters better development
I don't believe Toranaga only sees John as a barbarian who makes him laugh. John saved Toranaga on two occasions as we know of; carriage switcheroo and landslide unearthing. Without John, his belly would've been slit, and that's not a laughing matter.
yeah I found his reasoning really odd as well.
Nothing is truly woke-free anymore, compare the books depiction and the way John was treated in this show and it becomes obvious.
The book makes it clear he sees Blackthorne as a friend. One of the few he can be himself with.
Toranaga is no grandmaster of political chess as the show would have you believe. He's just making it up as he goes. Now that we've seen the conclusion in hindsight he sacrificed his best general and Mariko for nothing. He could have just declared war without their deaths as Ishido was never gonna kill the hostages as the regents would rebel.
The show mishandled Toranaga badly. The book shows his scheming and that he is always one step ahead of his enemies. The show made him look like he’s winging it. Of course, Hiro-matsu doesn’t die in the book either. Some random general is ordered to commit seppuku. It’s also clear in the book that Mariko fully understood that Osaka was a trap, with the intent of luring Ishido out of Osaka castle.
The Fuji scenes were great pieces of ART.
Such dignity. Such fine posture!
To be fair, most of the show was a masterful piece of art.
We need a Fuji “the nun” spinoff show!
@@Basketcase6925"the Nun with the gun"
What is the obsession with Fuji?
"It Was Mariko All Along"
- Sun Tzu
The scene of Blackthorn old is clearly intended to be in England. His nephews, his bed, his furniture everything screams England not a Dutch colony.
The mission and plan was NOT for her to die. It was one of the possible outcomes. The mission objective was to discredit Ishida by either proving the family members were illegal hostages or force Ishida to let them go with them naturally holding a grudge because they KNEW they had been hostages. How would Mariko have died if Ishida and Yabu hadn't gone for the Ninja attack after stopping her seppuku? She would have left with the families, mission accomplished. Again, Mariko's death was an accepted risk as part of the mission, but not the only way things could have played out.
This is pretty obvious but I guess it went over some people’s head. Same as hiromatsu’s death. People are hellbent on having the scenes from the book when you can clearly tell the same story differently and still get to the same outcome.
@@aleckg5291 I'd say a massive amount of stuff went over MANY peoples heads in this show. A lot of people don't get "subtle".
@@dailyqwikbytes right? They put an emphasis on the 8-fold fence and they even gave a whole episode to explain it hinting us that don’t take everything at face value.
@@aleckg5291 Precisely. Well said.
I'm pretty sure the dying grandpa Blackthorne scenes were simply his dreams of his future. He seemingly has Marikos rosary with him in bed, but he tossed that out in the sea with Fuji. I think there is a scene later on when he and Toranaga are talking where you see Blackthorne realize and come to terms with the fact that his future will not look like that.
I agree. He didn't want to die and old sick man in bed full of regrets. He wanted meaning. This was what he was afraid would happen. So he wanted to commit seppuku. When Torunaga ask him to build him ships, he thought he could build another life.
As someone who have not read the books or watched the old series ,
This series by itself is a masterpiece in storytelling , and a modern miracle with the current climate of holywood junk we are regularly served
As someone who read the novel and watched the old series, I think this new show is good, but that it is worst of the three. I encourage anyone who enjoyed this version to treat themselves and give the story a read and then watch the older series.
I felt extremely underwhelmed by the penultimate and final episode. Was extremely disappointed by most of what I viewed. I would say 6/10
very very very disappointed
series needed 2 more episodes after this one I think. One dedicated to the actual battle of Sekigahara and seeing Toranaga FINALLY in the action and defeating Ishidos army and then the final episode wrapping up all loose ends and finishing everyone's arcs. Ishido was built up as the villain. the constant alluding to war and the final battle, and we dont even get to see Toranaga and Ishido throw down. I wanted to see Buntaro and Omi on the battlefield. I wanted to see the betrayal of lady Ochiba's army against Ishido. I wanted to see the cannons being used. Wanted to see the catholic lords arcs completed. I wanted to see the famed battle of Sekigahara that they been building hype for. wat the fuck. Major fucking let down honestly. this woulda been the climax of the series, everything our heroes fought and died for and all the planning and scheming Toranaga did all hinged on Toranaga's success at Sekigahara.
Great series but big sad
well said
The audience was building hype for Sekigahahra, not really the show. The focus was always far more the intrigue around the battle than the battle itself. People seem to be victims of their own hype.
it was about politics and even in the book the battle was glossed over
@@jmgonzales7701 indeed, just the series ended leaving me wanting so much more out of it :'(
@@irlanderillustrations7517 like what the other commenter said the show never was about sekigahara. I think most of us audience are just spoiled about hollywood's big climactic battle.
I think this interpretation of the William Adams/Shogun story merits a much stronger endorsement if viewed through the lens of a Shakespearean-esque tragedy like Othello. I really enjoyed watching this and am about to start watching the 1980 miniseries, and just placed an order for the novel.
I think you'll like the 80s version. I am looking forward to see the 2024 version when it's available on disk.
I envy the enjoyment youre gonna have for both!!!
Yes, Othello is much closer to what this is. Imagine A Japanese Othello. That would have been cool.
I'm gonna be writing my thesis paper about Shakespearean aspects of Shogun, which I am very excited for. I'd also just like to mention that this adaptation will always have some special importance as it's what got me into the work and got me to this channel (though I must admit that I've been studying Japanese history since I was a kid).
@@youroldmemes7448 Then you know the crying and emotions of some of the Samurai was so out of place. Control and composure was very important. In Othello, the emotions are appropriate. The love, the sacrifice, the betrayal and a manipulater. Ochiba is like Lady Macbeth. Anjin, Hamlet. Mariko, Juliet. Ishido definitely Macbeth. Torunaga, Othello all the way.
Disappointing but not unexpected. From the beginning, it was clear they weren't interested in telling Blackthorne's story and chose to elevate Mariko as the central character. The problem is that once she's dead, the final episode is really just a lot people standing around and explaining things that happened off-camera. Toranaga suddenly has the power of prescience from taking the Water of Life off camera and can see the future. Blackthorne is alive only because he makes Toranaga laugh? The bottom line is that this series failed to stick the landing. By making the changes they made they demolished a carefully crafted story and failed to improve upon it.
I think Mariko wasn’t the central character but I loved that. Like the others, she was a pawn. But I think her death was fantastic. One woman’s sacrifice won a war. Some things are stronger than force
As a fan of James Clavell's novel, I sincerely hope that one day the book one day receives the amount of time it deserves to be fully fleshed out an explored in all its glory.
Are the books worth reading? I’ve heard mixed opinions
@@kaidorade1317
Shogun was a singular novel. I believe it's worth reading as historical fiction. There is a lot of study of human nature that I think some of people miss when reading it.
Clavell's novel Tai Pan is also worthwhile, as is King Rat. The novel King Rat taking place in a WWII Japanese POW camp. Clavell himself was a POW of the Japanese from 1942 - 1945, and as such the novel is written from the prospect of someone who lived through things we couldn't begin to imagine.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 thanks I’ll have to check it out
Clearly this was NOT.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 Question is.. does the book actually delve more than both series did? I don't think so.. making this a good adaptation in the end.
Whoever decided to remake this, didn't want to unnecessarily expand on what wasn't necessary.
I think blackthorns older self is a vision because as I can see it looks like he’s holding a very old version of Marikos cross or at least something that looks a lot like it
but hes shown throwing it in the lake...
@@MrDingDongPong yeah that’s what I mean I think his older self was a vision because of that especially with the way he “remembered” the events of the story with being woken up I think it was him thinking how he might end up
If he was nearly 80 years old from the look of his future self, (if he was late 30s), then that would make it near the English Civil Wars. Toranga dream of a great peace would be an ideal for an old man.
Yeah, not sure how everyone is missing this. Scene is very clearly not real!
If you look at Toranaga in this version, he
- Let his son kill the messengers from Osaka (which didn’t happen in the book and the Osaka government didn’t retaliate for some reason)
- Let his son die in a botched assassination attempt against his brother (which also didn’t happen in the book and the Osaka somehow still didn’t retaliate even though Toranaga was caught red-handed for rebellion)
- Forced his best friend, who was the well-respected general in the Eastern army, to commit seppuku just to “make it look real” to Osaka WITHOUT telling anyone except for Mariko about his plans (which also also didn’t happen in the book and why didn’t the other generals rebel against him like Yabushige did? The show tried to portray Yabushige as traitorous but his course of action made the most sense because why would anyone want to follow this crazy old man?)
- Killing civilians in his own domain randomly just to find “the traitors who burned the Anjin’s ship”, which later revealed to be just a performance to sway the Anjin to his side (which also also also somehow the civilians didn’t rebel against him for some reason. In the book, those people that Toranaga killed weren’t some average Joes. They were Yabushige’ soldiers. Omi snitched on his uncle to Toranaga that Yabushige betrayed him in Osaka and was planning to attack the Eastern army from within using his soldiers during Sekigahara. Toranaga knew this so he commanded Yabushige’s soldiers to guard the Erasmus then framed them for burning the ship. He got a perfect opportunity to kill the traitors while preventing Blackthorne from leaving Japan in process. It’s an extremely smart move by Toranaga. Meanwhile, Toranaga in 2024 version just love to commit senseless act of violence, the same mistake that caused Akechi Mitsuhide to rebel against Oda Nobunaga both in real life and in Shogunverse canon. The only difference between Nobunaga and Toranaga is that Nobunaga has no plot armor that forced him to win).
2024 Toranaga is nowhere near being “smart” as the show tried to tell us he is.
@@rhysnichols8608 Because it’s edgy. Because it’s Game of Thrones.
I did not ever expect to see the Battle of Sekigihara even with all the changes made from the original book. The story was never about that and it ended very much where the novel did. Far from being disappointed, I think they stuck the landing for what was a fantastic character driven drama.
Ending was garbage to me
I so much agree with you on the absurdity of making Toranaga's plan dependent on Ochiba of all people choosing to support him in the end. Not only because it is generally such an unrealistic idea that you could predict her reaction as exactly as you would need to in order to stake absolutely everything on the correctness of your prediction. Nor even just because in this specific instance, the idea that the loss of a friend would be enough to inspire this hard-as-nail female warlord to do a complete political U-turn is so unconvincing. But really and fundamentally, because (as you rightly pointed out) Ochiba has such an obvious priority - her son's survival. (We needn't concern ourselves with whether this is due to her being such a loving mother, or whether it's just dynastic politics, with her knowing that in this kind of society, she will only ever be able to rule in his name).
However, in order to live, Ochiba's son must also rule - because if anybody else becomes sole ruler of Japan the way the taiko had been, & the heir should be once he was old enough, then that somebody would know that the mere existence of the taiko's heir was the greatest danger to his rule, and would accordingly have to have him killed. (Which, as you rightly pointed out, real-life Toranaga i.e. Tokugawa Ieyasu demonstrated in 1615.) The only kind of ruler who wouldn't have to do this would be a man who, firstly, was so closely linked to Ochiba that he would be able to rule de facto through or with her, as a sort of step-father to the young heir (a realistic option in a political system heavily based on respect for your leders and used to fathers nominally abdicating but then keeping power - as done by Ieyasu, then his son Hidetada, almost all emperors and many feudal lords). Secondly, that non-threatening ruler would have to be someone whose hopes of establishing his own dynasty (and hence, whose need to eliminate the much younger heir as a long-term risk for his own successors) were practically zero - e.g. because he is of low origins himself, rather than already the heir of an established dynasty (such as Toranaga).
And lo and behold! both of these qualites are united in Ishido, who therefore is the one person whose rule over Japan Ochiba & above all her son would have to fear least. Toranaga, on the other hand, is the most dangerous opponent on both counts, and so it is nothing but madness for Ochiba to sacrifice Ishido to Toranaga - and to do it in a manner where she doesn't even get a reward because she didn't openly join Toranaga. That simply makes no sense, and hence it is depressing that Toranaga's plan should have been completely and exclusively dependent on exactly this massively unlikely u-turn.
A final thought: with this outcome now clear, I am beginning to understand why they had to come up with odd reasons for Ochiba's dislike of Toranaga. At the time, this bewildered me, because the calculations described above i.e. the defence of her son would have provided her with a much more obvious and virtually indestructible motive for oposing Toranaga. But of course the scriptwriters' intention was to make her help Toranaga at the end, meaning they couldn't risk telling the audience how dangerous this would be for her son...
That’s why in real life, Yodo Dono (Ochiba) banked on Mitsunari and then only switched to Ieyasu AFTER Sekigahara (when Mitsunari’s already dead) for self-preservation. She understood that she couldn’t go up against the Tokugawa at that time thanks to their army so she had to lay low until her son came of age a decade later. Then, she started plotting again with Hideyori and recruited a well-loved and respected general like Sanada Yukimura and a veteran like Goto Mototsugu. We all know that it led to Osaka campaign and all of them died but the point is, as long as Ochiba is still alive, she will never fully submit to the Tokugawa just because “boohoo Mitsunari killed my old buddy”.
To be fair it's not a random plan, it's a well thought-out one. He asks Mariko whether Ochiba can be turned to their side and the nature of her animosity towards him. Ochiba rightfully figured out that he was the biggest threat to her son's rule, but through Mariko he managed to manipulate her into letting down her guard. She wouldn't forgive Ishido for killing Mariko.
The show runners clearly didn't understand the story, themes, and characters of the novel. Or worse, they understood it, yet intentionally bastardized it, with a weaker and unnecessary story. Disappointing.
My final thoughts on this show? I am tired of newer shows or movies taking so many liberties with the source material it is nearly unrecognizable. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth feeling like the producers were merely taking advantage of a built in fan base of the novel, a guaranteed audience.
If you want to do your own thing, DO YOUR OWN THING. Put your stamp on your OWN work instead of altering an existing work so much you leave more than a few people who loved the source material wondering what the point of your "adaptation" was. Don't get me wrong, I am not such a stickler to the source material that any deviation from the source material is horrible or forbidden. For example, I loved the Lord of the Rings books and films, but many book purists would argue with me about the films. LotR films deviated from the books a bit, but it still felt true to the books IMO. I can't say this about Shogun.
Honestly, I just wish the show wasn’t called Shogun or had anything to do with the novel, because other than a couple of set-pieces and some names, it really doesn’t…
It was enjoyable, but only when I thought of it as a completely separate story. They changed so much and I assume it was strictly due to time constraints but it could’ve easily been a 3 or maybe even 4 season show of 10 episodes each. It’s a real shame.
Honestly, this was the worst series finale of all time if you ask me.
The actual battle does move the individual arcs of the characters. This is a well done closure of the characters understanding life snd fate goes on. there will more intrigue and battles but this small slice of story comes to a close with an open door. i think they nailed it. p.s. IRL by that time the ship was rotted through and sank by itself.
it really feels like they could get another season of material by focusing more on history and separating from the novel
Make Toranaga the focus and cast it with the same actors and actresses. Show the battle of sekigahara and the other battles that paved the way to the edo period
Yeah they could just do a short of the battle, similar to how they did that backstory trailer thing. I’d be content with that.
But also, this is honestly one occasion that I actually see the potential of a sequel or prequel season for a show/film based on a limited book series. As it leaves a lot of potential. Maybe a sequel from the POV of Sanada Yukimura, with Toranaga playing a more villainous role.
Maybe a prequel with Yasuke’s arrival in Japan, as it’s a good parallel to William Addams and they could show Lord Kuroda’s brutality, but also his ambition, cunning nature and vision. They could show how their relationship develops, only for it to end with tragedy because of Honno-Ji. Then they could show Yamazaki and the story basically goes full circle (and honestly knowing Hollywood nowadays that’s probably the one they would go for).
I started the book recently and haven’t gotten to watch the 80s show so for those that have done either or both what do you think? Do you think another season is possible?
They could have had a whole other season of material by just fully adapting the novel.
That would really inflate the budget. So far they've only shown small skirmishes but a massive battle is expensive.
If wanna see something like that, I recommend 3 taiga dramas about Tokugawa Ieyasu
Tokugawa Ieyasu (1983)
Aoi Tokugawa Sandai (2000)
Dou Suru Ieyasu (2023)
Without sekigahara any sengoku show is useless
I didn't like the rainy atmosphere of the show , all these medieval shows have the same blue filter with foggy conditions
True although to be fair I think that kinda of the point since it is set during the Sengoku Period or warring states period of Japan as it was dark time for the country as Clan battling against one another to expand their fiefdom?
@@WyattDucar hmm good point
@@WyattDucar except that even the final shot of the show of Toranaga looking towards the sun, signifying the bright new dawn future of Edo period, it’s still too dark because of the color grading.
Yeah, that has always peeved me with modern historical movies. The Napoleon show also has thr dark and mute colors, then you see the bright colors without the filter behind the scene erks me a little. I miss the high saturated colors of movies like Ran and earlier Samurai movies.
Foggy maybe also during that period there is still more vegetation and less industrialised.
The seppeku scene was never part of the story neither was the whole conversation he has with Toranaga. It was way earlier in the book when Yabu orders the village to teach Anjin japanese in 6 months and he does not learn the whole village will be burned and every man, woman, and child will be crucified. The attempted suicide was a massive turning point for anjin and his outlook on the japanese culture and himself.
My feeling is the writers failed to remain true to the characters and plot of the novel as the series progressed. The characters as written by the final episode no longer fit the plot. Fuji becomes a nun when her character really lived only for her own death? Yabu breaks, begging for ridiculous death, writing doggerel for his death poem? Blackthorn, who saved Toranaga 's life multiple times, who faced his own moment of death with seppuku, who literally saved the plot by his defense of Mariko and the rest from capture by ninja at Osaka, is demoted to a court jester living only to make Toranaga laugh? No, it just doesn't wash.
I feel they stayed TRUE to the novel while not making it a cringe love story between mariko and blackthorne. The novel had it's own flaws and this show tried to correct those while maintaining the character and plot. I like how they focused on each character in the show. This show gave us the politics which was much better than making it about blackthorne
The writing doesn't always make sense and book isn't much better. They stayed pretty close to the book though but the logic for the characters don't always make sense.
@@jonfreeman9682 Yes, I agree that expanding the series to capture the wider character viewpoints than the 1980 series is more like the novel. But, isn't the story the character interactions with each other and the events around them, which in turn, drives the story forward from plot point to plot point. When they don't mesh, the story drifts, and ultimately the story comes to a standstill or cannot be resolved. And this is ultimately my point.
I don’t think Toranaga actually stopped Blackthorne dying because he sees him as a jester. He was able to use Blackthorne politically but more than that, he formed an allegiance/relationship with Blackthorne. Maybe a friendship. Blackthorne showed loyalty and saved Toranaga’s life. I think Toranaga genuinely admires Blackthorne and wants to maintain an allegiance with mutual respect
@@Anna-ug8cq You may be surprised when I say I feel the same way! Very satisfying to have that brought out in the story, but I maintain this final episode story doesn't show us this. We stopping the seppuku, telling Anjin to re-build the ship, and we see a scene with some heads being removed from public display. Later, in his musings with Yabu, he comments that the Anjin makes him laugh. Clavell, in his ending of the novel, makes your point plain by revealing Toranaga's inner thoughts on everything. Unfortunately, this left the TV writers to figure out how to show us everything by speech, or actions, which they could do during the series episodes. Apparently several possible endings were shot, but none felt right, so they opted for ambiguity. When I read the novel some years ago, and having just completed a re-read on the day this episode debuted, I felt Clavell ended the story with all revealed without any ambiguity at all. My last and final thought: I read a review today on rogerebert.com, where the reviewer, Kaiya Shunyata, commented that she she felt she was watching a reinvention of the story from the novel rather than an adaptation, say further the writers "strip Clavell’s text from its original pages and create something not only magnificent, but wholly original". This observation immediately hit the nail on the head for me, and you may again be surprised, but I agree with her too. It's too bad their ending fell short.
Major letdown feels like we wasted so many scenes in rooms sitting far too long than bringing back the portuguese and getting us all hyped up for a battle that never happened and became just a vision of what may happened where no swords are drawn? Lame.
I mean if you start watching a series with the hope of only watching a battle you are bound to be dissappointed . Seems like the only reason you watched the show was to see men fight with swords for that you can watch action movies . This story was well done the politics and relationship were the main focus
I guess you didn’t notice that this wasn’t a show about battles?😳
@@dhimankalita1690it is a show about warriors, I think it's fairly reasonable for a person watching who hasn't read the book to hope for and expect battles. Especially considering all the promotional material feature characters in Samurai armor. I know I did, but I'm not that displeased with what we got.
That's like making a movie about Medieval Knights and then not showing them ever having a battle.
@@dstarling61 Actually it was show about 4 regent warlords going against 1 regent lord trying to maintain peace to the realm while admitting it seemed war was ineveitable. They preached like a battle was going to happen the entire season only to cheap out at the end. I didn't need a battle every episode, but one huge final battle that the show was building up to the entire time only for it to be like a fake future dream vision.
While I can't really give a definitive judgment about the series as a whole, as I haven't watched it for myself. That said, however, from what bits I've seen as well as watching your reviews of each episode in the series, I have an initial opinion. I think that it's more of a truly missed opportunity that they didn't give us the Battle of Sekigahara. I've always found the Sengoku Jidai a fascinating period in Japan's great history and Tokugawa Ieyasu is one of my favourite people from that era. So, for me, I personally think that Toranaga's keeping his plans to himself is something that Ieyasu would've done, at least in my personal opinion.
Okay, finally watched everything. I liked it but I don’t think it touches the 70s series. John and Mariko's love affair was under developed, the stories diverged too much from the book and some key scenes fell flat compared to the old series (I.e John's seppuku attempt). Although I love Hiroyuki Sanada, I think his interpretation of Toranaga was too tame and didn’t give the charisma Mifune gave to the character. The series made Yabushige a somewhat likable character which he wasn’t in the first series. I also miss Blackthorne relinquishing the property of Yuki to Omi. But some things I liked, I.e Blackthorne and Mariko's husband somehow reconciling at the end, which wasn’t in the book but is a cool idea. I also think the relationship between Toranaga and Blackthorne was better in the old series. It wasn’t in the book but I would have liked to see the battle of Sekigahara, or the gruesome fate of Isidore. A lot of missed opportunities, but still a good show. And come on, is there never sun in Japan, the Land of the Rising Sun.
The Seppuku attempt was a key but of character development. But not here.
I have to say, I think this version is held back by some of the choices in pacing, color filter and ultimately a lot of the character interactions feeling far more contrived than the 80s version or the book. I was hoping to see more of Sekigahara due to the scale of the troops they showed before(even if a lot of CGI was involved) and Blackthorne's cannons all hinting at a payoff that just never happens onscreen.
It's not bad as a show, but it's definitely held back from surpassing what came before in many ways and still feels incomplete to the source material.
Totally agree but biggest disappointment is the ending. Feels like they ran outta budget so can't do any epic battles and just concludes with some blah blah blah poetry and philosophical ramblings. Ending was a whimper but it started with a bang so still an enjoyable ride. But does feel like a big buildup to a nothing burger.
The colour palette was too dull. I think i prefer the 80s version overall but enjoyed this
I dont know. I think the final episode was weak. And somehow as if the writers of the show just realized that they have all these important plot points regarding Blackthorn still left on the table. So they squeezed the burning of the Erasmus, the threat against Anjiro and Johns Seppuku attempt in the final episode while almost hastly going to end all the other loose plot threads as well.
And i really dont like that they never gave us the friendship between Blackthorn and Toranaga. The letter one just thinking of the Anjin as a court jester was a real downer for me.
I know we won't get it, but I'd love to see a sequel set during the Siege of Osaka, where we see how ruthless and ambitious Toranaga really is.
As for Ochiba, I think her decision to betray Ishido makes sense. Ishido's power is incredibly fragile and the other regents are all tenuously loyal - they're still resentful over being imprisoned, disgusted at Mariko's death, and Toranaga's brother has *already* proven that he's a traitor. Hardly a stable power base. Besides, Ishido is a more immediate danger - being married to Ochiba, he likely would have killed the heir so that his own son by Ochiba could rule the land after him.
He was ruthless and ambitious. In the book he was also kind and a loyal friend as well as inspired loyalty, This 2024 series was just one sadness after another.
Well this show deserves a great battle but we never got Crimson Sky.
I think that she was disgusted by Ishido's failure and dishonor in launching the attack, and betrays Ishido. As a result the Heir, his army and their banners will not ride out to aid Ishido.
Meh, I stuck it out to finish the season. Visually good at times but I never felt the acting and filming in rainy season British Columbia made everything (including the interior shots) so dark. I didn't know until a week or so ago that this was only the first season. What material will season two be based on? I will add that I liked Fujiko!
Having now finished your review, I agree, way too many plot holes.
It's a limited series. If anything they may make a prequel
Plot holes ? Can u mention some of them. I think you couldn't grasped the story
@@dhimankalita1690 There were a few major plot holes pointed out in this very video, champ. I suggest you take a look.
@@deanzaZZR thos are not plot holes . He just didn't understand the story.
He may have a good grasp of history, but he doesn’t appear to understand storytelling.
I thought it was very clear that the future scenes don't happen, he lets go of the cross
Big plot twist:
Toranaga is actually a time traveller that have read the book and travels back in time to recreate everything.
The ending was literally the definition of less is more we didn't need some OTT battle when we already knew the outcome
The show respected the viewer as someone who understood just that, the speeches in the end were some of the best in the show also
Nah it was boring af. No final battle? Lame... Just got episode after episode of people sitting on tatami mats talking. Struggling to see how people think that is entertainment. And this is coming from someone who watches samurai "jidaigeki" all the time. Show, don't tell.
@@darkmattergamesofficial They obviously didn't have the budget for it. Can't show an expensive battle if you don't have the money for it unfortunately.
I liked the show but they didn't pay it off well in the finale. Made me wish they either did a historical 5 regents show or a faithful adaptation of Shogun, not the weird mish mash we got.
I’m disappointed as well. I find the Japanese and Samurai culture incredibly interesting and very cool but as the show continued to progress, suspense built with every episode of an impending conflict. My issue with there being no war and Toronaga revealing his plans to become Shogun as the big “twist” is that it’s not really a twist. Toronaga showed time and time again that he was always playing chess while others played checkers. He was the king of being 2 steps ahead, always gaming others for his own personal benefit. So in my eyes, it’s not really a big “oh shit” moment that you want in finale’s. Also, while I found Toronaga very bad ass through out the entire series, this level of conniving takes him to a bit of an annoying level haha. Kill Mariko, force Anjin to almost kill himself all while lying to his face, then laugh that you may tell him the truth later but then fuck him over again lol. What a dick. Also he’s just massacre-ing innocent people in the village at the end for something he did. All so he can “bring peace” as Shogun. How ironic! Still a cool show, but very let down by the finale
I have to say I did not like this series, sometimes poorly written, very unevenly paced and bleakly filmed, it looked far too much like Canada and not Japan. The 1980's series is much better, IMHO.
during the whole episode I was checking the timer, by half of the episode I knew we will not have an epic battle x((
ME TOO! Such a massive disappointment... Totally a whimper of an ending.
Disliked finale a lot. Showed Toronaga "brilliant mastermind and trickster" as nothing at all. All supposed "according to plan" was terrible. Lost son, best friend/advisor for absolutelly nothing.
First son killed envoys - "that will force them out of Osaka and we win in open field" - nothing happens. Doesnt get allies, doesnt mobilize army.
Invites brother, shows weakness, get betrayed, does nothing again. Son dies "to buy him time". Does nothing with that bonus 49 days again. Time passes without events.
Continues to surrender, best friend seppuku to change his mind. Does nothing again.
Sends Mariko to Osaka to suicide too for no real gain. Ochiba changing sides makes 0 sense from what we hear in earlier episodes as she blames Toronaga for her father death.
Really underwhelming finale and Toronaga (while played by great actor with commanding presence) is shown as weak without a plan. All we get is other people commenting on his qualities, but we dont see them. Show, dont tell, showrunners forgot about that.
And then stupid comment that he doesnt need Anjin, who already saved his life twice, but keeps him because makes him laugh, was just silly to say at all.
Show felt very rushed and just not great writing overall. If the setting for this show was anywhere but Japan it would not get the reception it has been.
Hiromatsu's seppuku seems way too much like an attempt to go for a Game of Thrones style shock death.
And it makes no sense
@@nont18411
Indeed. Sacrificing your best and most trusted general to conduct a subterfuge to convince your enemy that you've thrown in the towel would be like executing Eisenhower before D-Day to convince the Germans that the Allies aren't planning to invade.
@@nont18411
Indeed. Eliminating his top and most trusted general for the reasons given in this series is nonsensical; particularly when there will be many battles to come for Toranaga.
What a waste of a loyal samurai.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 Even in real life when Ieyasu sacrificed Torii Mototada, he still made it clear to EVERYONE in the Eastern army camp that it’s a heroic sacrifice so that once Mototada died, the morale of the Eastern camp wouldn’t drop. In fact, Mototada volunteered himself to take one for the team. No loyalty lost.
Meanwhile, Toranaga is just a crazy old man whose every move made rebellion the most sane and rational course of action for his generals.
Honestly i have very mixed feelings about the show and the finale, i just didnt feel connected to any character other than Fuji and Yabu who i really liked and wished to see more of. Blackthornes portrayal just didnt do it for me at all, and of course i wish the series was longer as things simply feeled super rushed for me. oh well still a good series but overall my expectations were higher and left me kinda disapointed... just my thoughts anyway
While i do like the show but i think an original show on the true history of sengoku jidai would be box office
Agreed! If you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend the film Kagemusha. It beautifully and tragically depicts real events from this time period, specifically about 30 years prior to the events of Shōgun.
@@GavinRegnaert thanks will watch
Awesome!
My thoughts entirely. So many colorful characters; Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Eusugi Kenshin, Takeda Shingen, Shimazu Yoshihiro, Otani Yoshitsugu, Shima Sakon, Fukushima Masanori, Kobayakawa Hideaki, Kodai-in (Nene). The list goes on and on. So many plots and twists...
@@mahalallel2012 Nene made more of an impact in history than the rest of these female characters.
I watched the 1980 series when it aired, and read the book soon after. Have had fond memories of enjoying both. Was very excited once I heard they were remaking it, with favorite actor Hiroyuki Sanada as Toranaga. I wasn’t let down in the least. I appreciate this version for what it is, and loved the finale. The series always kept you guessing. Just when you thought you knew what was coming, it surprised you. For those wanting battles, let me recommend...let's see...every other samurai movie, lol. Toranaga was a schemer, a thinker. He could war if he had to, but would rather not destroy the realm, just root out the main threat. A different tactic than his friend Akechi Jinsai. Again, loved this series so much and will miss the weekly anticipation and excellence.
The problem to me the show has, is that it fully leaned on the Mariko character as the real central character, even outshining Toranaga. With her gone the story just felt like a balloon where the air is going out with that horrible squeeky noise. Just having Toranaga tell the future to Yabu, finishing the story by exposition just feels unsatisfying. What came after felt like filler, because the show did not make me care one iota about Blackthorne as a blundering fool with that eternal look of "What's going on" on his face, his offered sacrifice did not mean a thing to me and wasted a very important plot point in the book. I did like the Fujiko wrap up, though I must admit having this strong interesting character ending up in a monastery is also not a very satisfying conclusion but her acting skills were wonderful to watch. The whole ship thing I didn't care about and Buntaro's turn around felt totally unlikely and ill motivated.
The show looked beautiful and that's basically all that stuck the landing to use the Shogunate's phrase. As a finale this felt totally inapt.
I really dislike this "it as all a dream" bit.
People can argue, "no, it was not a dream, it was just John dreaming about what his life could be after leaving Japan" and maybe disliking it, but he has this vision also when he is while awake during his seppuku, making it feels a bit like yes, he left Japan, that was not a dream. What was actually a dream was most of this episode with him regretting not having died in Japan.
This wasn't necessary, this series didn't needed us wasting time thinking about this.
Anyway, overall my complaint about the series is that it didn't convinced me that Toranaga was a Keikaku Master. Felt like he intended to make more use of his army but couldn't do this because of the earth quake, and that he only didn't did because his don suppuked by accident. In the end I get the impression that he only survived and succeeded by luck.
I felt like Blackthorne saying he was an enemy was just a way of him trying to shift blame from the villagers to himself, as he was depressed and prepared to die anyways. He seemed to be desperately searching for anything that would put the blame on his shoulders to prevent any further bloodshed.
My only issue is that the episode felt rushed, and it definitely felt like there was something missing in the ending, idk, it just didn't feel like a season finale to me for some reason.
Imo, I think 12 episodes would be a better fit 🤔🤷
I believe that Blackthorne was calling himself the enemy in an attempt to goad Toranaga into letting him seppuku. He said he was using Toranaga to piss him off, and declaring himself the enemy to seal the deal.
Of course, that's never been how Toranaga operates, but Blackthorne was desperate for self-retribution.
I've just got to add that I hated this episode watching it when it first went live last night. I went into the podcast immediately afterward feeling unfulfilled and hollow.
However!
I spent today rewatching the entire series in a long binge session. Afterward, in that context, the finale made a lot more sense and was way more satisfying.
Good episode, but season finale? What?! Yeah I feel like something's missing.
The more you know about the actual history, the more confusing this gets. The show makes no sense in so many ways.
The logic is bonkers. Like why did Ishida sacrifice his best general and Mariko when he could have just declared war if that's his intention. Ishida was never gonna kill the hostages or regents would rebel.
@@jonfreeman9682Were you not paying attention? Declaring war from the beginning would have kept the council united against him. None of the hostages would want to leave with a war going on, nor did any of them have the balls to try to leave. It was clearly implied that they couldn’t leave and Ishido used that ambiguity to keep them there without having to use force, until Mariko called his bluff.
@@Zarastro54 Hostage taking was very normal back then. There didn't need to be any pretending about it. It was her dying that wrecked his plan. But the hostage taking was not a decisive thing. The Daimyo that went to Toranaga went because he had the strongest clan or because they never liked Ishido. The hostages were just another log on the fire. Certainly nothing to base your whole strategy on.
@@joeyartk Correct. I was just explaining how the hostage aspect fit into his overall plan. Ishida was the one who tried to have it both ways by publically insisting that they weren't hostages, but keeping them there anyway. Toronaga simply exposed this with Mariko and used it to undermine Ishido's legitimacy.
@@Zarastro54 I see that. I just struggle with the way they mix fiction with reality in this show. The heavy feminist theme, especially grossly inflating Mariko's importance can be annoying when you know the real history. Lol
There was just so much that I feel I needed to see that I didn’t get too… it’s good but I need more
As a lover of the novel (and Clavell’s Asian Saga) I was very disappointed with this show. So many poignant, powerful and meaningful elements of the book either watered down or omitted.
I can understand non-book readers being happy with the show but, knowing the full power of this story, I think the 80s mini series is far better than this version.
The fact that there "could" be so many possible "interpretations" just speaks to the bad writing. Once again, the "Modern Adaptation" fails and falls flat. It's worse than bad, it;s boring, which is quite the accomplishment considering what a great story it really is.
They stuck the landing! I got everything I needed and more. Bravo to the FX team for not feeling that violent war scene was necessary but rather showing that war can be won in other ways.
It might not be a bad show but its a terrible adaptation. That being said if they want to do an adaptation of Gai-Jin and take the horrible Malcom-Angelique plotline out, I'd be ok with that
I can NOT understand Blackthorn's character anymore. Its a mystery to me.
Chad Blackthorne 1980: “I’m gonna be friends with you, Alvito, for the sake of Mariko. But I still have to continue my mission. I will make sure that Toranaga will expel you and all of Catholic influence out of Japan and replace it with my influence of trading with England and the Dutch instead. No hard feelings but it needs to be done.”
Virgin Blackthorne 2024: “I fed you shit. I fed you shit!!”
I absolutely adored this series - the setting, characters, themes, metaphors… it was so well written and engaging. But the end really feels anti-climatic. Just too rushed. I could have watched 3 seasons
If you haven't already read the novel, I recommend it.
In a way, I feel like we're back in 1980. This remake has sparked a renewed interest in feudal Japan in pop culture. While this was coming out, we've gotten a lot of new stuff set in this wonderful era. From Blue Eye Samurai, The Oku, The Inner Chambers, to some less then great, like Age of Samurai, (which I still enjoy) and Onimusha, not the mention the interest in the 1980 version itself. My hope, is that we will continue to get some great stuff for the next year or so, maybe even some new movies.
A well made last Episode with alot of Great moments between the Characters. This is one of the few Episodes where the muted colours fit with the overall somber tone. I have to say the whole Episode feels like there is still too much Story left for it to end there.
This was really a weird episode in that from the last episode we had the shinobi, and in this episode what happened they just left no fighting.
The fact that there wasn’t a battle and capturing and head removing of the generals is disappointing.
Seems the budget ran out torwards the end , overall show is a 4/10
It's good they didn't show the last battle. It was unnecessary. This isn't The Last Samurai.
It should be. This ending had zero emotional weight, at least for me
The show started so well, and it ended so badly😢
EXACTLY
If you want mindless action go watch something like fast and furious
@@XxWolfxWaRioRxX 🤓🤓
If you want to hear a story of what William Adams did after the end of Clavell's Shogun novel, I suggest reading ""The Needle-Watcher" by Richard Blaker. It covers the whole arc but goes further to the point where Will starts building ships in Japan ...
I understand the enemy part as just white guilt.
Which doesn’t make sense in the context of Shogun, especially this version.
Blackthorne saying that it’s his fault that he tried to colonize Japan just like the Portuguese. Meanwhile, we also have a scene that Hideyoshi told Ieyasu that he regretted about how they never got to colonize Korea together.
They wanna portray Japan as a victim of colonization while in fact, Japan is just as imperial as any Western empire. Look at the Okinawa islands, for example.
@@nont18411 Yes, agree. Still, I suppose the writer's guilt and wokeness had to surface somewhere.
In the end, Toronaga was in control of everything and Blackthorne was in control of nothing. That's why they were TEKI.
That is why they failed.
Actually Toranaga was just making it up as he goes and in hindsight he sacrificed his general and Mariko for nothing. Ishida was never gonna kill the hostages or the alliance is over.
@@jonfreeman9682 without Mariko’s sacrifice Ishido’s wife wouldn’t have betrayed him , he’d have the heir’s banners and Ishido would have won.
Disliked it so much as it deviated so much from the characters and they change the characters so much.
Feels like I wasted my time in the end.
The 1980 Original version with Richard Chamberlain have- The Executive Producer-James Clavell.I said all.The 2024 version is made for new generation,without substance,without...nothing.
Overall C- for the series. The props were nice, but the lighting was so bad you couldn't actually see any of it, then they desaturated everything in post to make it nearly unwatchable. and there's perpetual "Smog" in ever scene for no apparent reason. They butchered the book, actual History and the narrative purpose of the story (West meets East....and likes it). This was "Much Ado About Nothing". Utterly forgettable.
Toranaga said Blackthorne will build another ship, and he will burn it. Toranaga is true to form. Always manipulating.
Honestly i was a bit let down at first as i expected at least like a small scene at the end of the episode where the battle is shown and perhaps a time jump where toranaga would be given the title of shogun.
That being said i will probably binge watch the whole show this weekend to see how it feels all together.
I agree that the final battle and Toranaga becoming Shogun was missing. The show is called "Shogun" but there is no Shogun in the show. I read that the final battle is based on a famous Japanese battle.
Blackthorne's speech to Toranaga is a bunch of modern nonsense.
“I fed you shit”
Nope, you told him the truth that the Portuguese is gonna colonize Japan. The plot forced you to say it because they rushed the ending and wanted to close this Portuguese plotline asap.
Also, in the book, both Blackthorne and Toranaga still tried to find a way to expel these Portuguese colonizers. Toranaga, particularly, even thought of Dejima.
@@nont18411
You wouldn't believe the number of people who have lost it on me for suggesting that this series has been way too rushed.
@@grandmufftwerkin9037 They will just deflect the criticism to “You are just mad because they didn’t show you Sekigahara”. I don’t give a damn about Sekigahara because I know since the beginning that it’s never a meat of the story both in the book and the 80’s version. What I’m mad is how they butchered Blackthorne and the Portuguese plotline while making Toranaga super dumb and making Ochiba’s redemption arc so contrived and laughable.
The only two characters who survived this show unscathed are Buntaro and Yabushige, supposedly two of the most hateful characters, because the show accidentally improved them by giving both of them more nuance.
Again overall, I agree with your take on this last episode. When it jived with the book it seemed to be strengthened but when it did not to me it was disjointed, probably an effort for the writers to finish checking off the boxes such as finally getting in Yabu’s seppuku and Blackthorn’s seppuku attempt. The episode also seemed ragged as the writers were trying to wrap up the paths where they strayed from the book and there were too many of these. Fujiko did not become a nun in the book, Toronaga gave her permission to finally die (her wish all along) but to make sure it was staged as an accident. Ochiba’s role in the final stages of the book was almost non-existent. The episode did not mention anything about Ishida’s ultimate demise and his fate was left hanging. You are correct, all the Portuguese including the Jesuits were almost a non-factor in this series. In the book as Blackthorn is starting to build a new ship(s) he is firm in his resolve to go after the Black Ship, which Toronaga will not allow as he will end up burning all the ships. The opening scene with Blackthorn of course was not in the book, the book indicated strongly that Blackthorn was in Japan for good (that was Blackthorn’s karma). About that scene, to me it was clearly in England as the grandsons looked and sounded completely English (of course Blackthorn was married in the book but this was not mentioned in this series). The room was definitely English…this all adds to the disjointed feel of this last episode. All in all the actors did a good job but my disappointment was how they were directed; Mariko and Blackthorn particularly, I do not think their acting hit the mark for the characters but I do not fault them but what they had to work with from the directors and writers. I am not at all surprised they did not show the Battle of Sekigahara, the expense was probably too much and at least they followed the book in this regard. In a way it is a shame because they had views of 2 armies all dressed up and no where to go. I probably will not give an extended comment on your wrap up video on the series as I would be repeating myself, but overall I give the series a 6 out of 10, mostly due to the fantastic depiction of the sets (Canada filming location notwithstanding), the costumes, the accuracy of the lifestyle and culture, and good acting overall…however the many deviations from the book and the misplacement or deletions of important timelines and events were disturbing. I may watch it again in the near future from start to finish as this may be give me a better understanding of what the writers were trying to do but my opinion will probably not change.
As a huge fan of James Cavell , I thought I would mention some of the decisions that lessen this show from the original for me, the love affair of Blackthorne and Markio was beautiful in the original they are traveling to Osaka on horse back exploring there love affair and she is making him promise there love affair will end on the last bridge they cross before Osaka, this is slowly play out and you discover she knew she was going to die and it's is beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time, her words to the priest to save Blackthorne and the attempted lynching where touchstones and sadly missing from this one , that is just one example of many if you are wondering why people are upset, I thought the series was good , episode 9 exceptional , but there was something lacking!
What is the "heir's army"? He doesn't really have much of one and Ochiba commands nothing. The allied clans were where all their power came from. That's why defections were fatal.
No Blackthrone didn't make it home, It was a dream of the dream, In the dream squence he {old Blackthrone} had Mariko's crucifix in his hand. He let {ithecrucifix} go with Fujiko ashes in the water at the end scene.
It was a great series. I wanted to see battle of dekigahara but they ended it also great.... it is a masterpiece with some flaws amd mostly good points. 10/10