This episode has a great call back to The Coming of Shadows when the dying Centauri emperor ask Kosh, "How will this end?" and Kosh says "In Fire". Cartagia in this ep says "Let it all end in fire.". There is another call back to that line coming up but i won't spoil it.
During the first run of Babylon 5, on USENET discussions, if I recall, the default naming convention for the two Koshii used to be: - Kosh Classic - Kosh Vader You probably can deduct which Vorlon is which.
Random Fun Fact: As a Brazilian, I knew since childhood what Apotheosis meant, and it's not just because I grew up catholic: There is a large archway sculpture at the end of Marquês de Sapucaí, which is the place in Rio where we have the Samba Schools Parade every Carnival. This archway structure, plus the square where it's situated are known as Apoteose, the square is the Praça da Apoteose (Apotheosis Square). In context, it means the crowning moment, it's the place each Samba School culminates their demonstration, as if when they reach there, they achieve a state of glory and grace, the peak of their year-round work.
"It's like a Vorlon Death Star" ... except the Vorlon fleet is MUCH COOLER (and more sensible), because they have a whole fleet of support ships surrounding and guarding the "big boy" AND because they have more powerful small ships.
The shape depicted reminds me of a cephalopod like a cuttlefish, an octopus...or a Na'ka'leen Feeder - maybe Deuce wasn't that far off when he used one as a fake Vorlon :D
If that was about that eye. G'Kar's eyes could see... Well, before the end of this episode. I always thought it was about an eye that had never been able to see.
In the las episode of season 2 whe Kosh saves Sheridan and Jeff & Brent were joking about his face, calling him handsome squidward, i was laughing because the vorlons are squids, like the sadows evolve of aracnids they evolve of cephalopods.
Amusingly- I shared the existence of this whole series of videos with a friend moments before launching this one... then you asked us to do exactly that.
We all knew at this time that JMS was trying to wrap up B5 to give us all a proper ending. All the threads were coming together quickly...more than he originally planned. The rush certainly added to the pace and excitement, but it did cut down a lot of the character-development and universe-building type stuff. These last two eps were certainly to move all the pieces into the right place in order to have time to tell the rest of the story as cleanly as possible.
I really enjoy it when I see a reaction and get a perspective that I had not considered before. Apotheosis in this context, as I understood it, was always referring to Cartagia's "ascension to Godhood" (falling to Godhood). The "Vorlon perspective" for the term is quite interesting.
There's a double meaning in the word Apotheosis, here. Using it as a highest point or climax is the most common way it's used today, but it also means the achieving of godhood or deification. And you could interpret a few characters heading in that direction at this point in the series, some more intentionally and overtly than others...
Once again, I want to shout out Wortham Krimmer for his just superb performance as Cartagia. He really plays the character to the hilt, and it really makes it satisfying when [Redacted for spoilers]. ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ “You must save the eye that does not see.”
@@inhumanmusic1411 Lawyers can do a lot with acting ... in court ... because they need to be able to hide their personal reactions and pretend something different from what they feel. You are correct though ... because 99% of lawyers are evil ...
Falling Towards Apotheosis - within this context - means falling toward godhood as we see messianic imagery surrounding Sheridan, "The One Who Will Be." Also , not really a spoiler since JMS noted on the newsgroups during the original run that Kosh 2.0 is named Ulkesh. He confirmed that Kosh was indeed the oldest of the remaining Vorlons and unlike his "coworker," maintained something of a sentimental spot for the younger races.
To Jeff and Brett: Wait to look this up until after the show. Too many spoilers. With that said, Precendence Publishing did an INCREDIBLE job with a Babylon 5 Collectible Card Game. Part of the wonder is the little reveals by designating Kosh Naranek and Kosh Ulkesk. It is the only CCG that I put on-par with Magic: The Gathering. Sadly, fighting between WB and JMS killed it too soon. It is still an incredible way to relive alternate versions of the show.
As I recall, the name Ulkesh began with the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows, written by JMS' wife, Kathryn Drennan. It got used in the card game after that. And in the Mongoose RPG games, becomes the basis of the 'Kesh' aspect of Vorlons, paired with the Kosh, and Kail aspects, too. @@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984
Since the end of season 2, its been so hard not to shout spoilers in the comments. I've known this whole ride has been coming and hearing you guys wax lyrical on what you think will happen is always so fun to hear. You're going to love the rest of this season, See you monday.
Yes, sometime near the end of Season 3 (when, one can debate) B5 transitioned to much more a serialized story, which is also what fans of B5 remember and so talk about it a lot. The question is how long does it stay that way...
Yep. It's in a late episode, Walt has paid the Bill Burr character to keep an eye on Badger and Skinny Pete because he's trying to find out what's going on with Jesse, and Burr's character tells him something like..."all they did was sit around talking for hours about something called...Babylon 5"?
I don't think Kosh 2 (Ulkesh) represents the entirety of the Vorlon race anymore than Kosh did. Something tells me that the Vorlons wanted to send the exact opposite of Kosh to B5 due to his "failure" so they sent a real hardline jerk.
To be fair Jeff made the connection when watching so will probably bring it up with Brent, but if he doesn't Brent gets to find out second time around when all gloves are off! Entil'Zha Valen!!
Krimmer does such a wonderful job with Cartagia. Completely unhinged.
Fun trivia: that head at 5:27 that Cartagia is cleaning, that's a mask of Andreas Katsulas (G'Kar). JMS thought it would be funny.
That’s grotesque. I love it
@@brentallenliveJurassic commented he could steal a scene without even being on set
This episode has a great call back to The Coming of Shadows when the dying Centauri emperor ask Kosh, "How will this end?" and Kosh says "In Fire". Cartagia in this ep says "Let it all end in fire.". There is another call back to that line coming up but i won't spoil it.
The way they take out Kosh 2 is what always made me laugh when you'd say Kosh 2 Electric Boogaloo
Presumably the penny dropped during the fight scene.
I see that now!
During the first run of Babylon 5, on USENET discussions, if I recall, the default naming convention for the two Koshii used to be:
- Kosh Classic
- Kosh Vader
You probably can deduct which Vorlon is which.
Random Fun Fact: As a Brazilian, I knew since childhood what Apotheosis meant, and it's not just because I grew up catholic: There is a large archway sculpture at the end of Marquês de Sapucaí, which is the place in Rio where we have the Samba Schools Parade every Carnival. This archway structure, plus the square where it's situated are known as Apoteose, the square is the Praça da Apoteose (Apotheosis Square). In context, it means the crowning moment, it's the place each Samba School culminates their demonstration, as if when they reach there, they achieve a state of glory and grace, the peak of their year-round work.
Oh que bom! I'm American, but my heritage is Brazilian (mother from Valinhos in São Paulo).
"It's like a Vorlon Death Star" ... except the Vorlon fleet is MUCH COOLER (and more sensible), because they have a whole fleet of support ships surrounding and guarding the "big boy" AND because they have more powerful small ships.
Not to mention they can actually hit their targets.
And now the flip side of the 'Vorlon's are angels' reveal ...
Angels as a whole in modern media seem to be... well... jerks 😂
The shape depicted reminds me of a cephalopod like a cuttlefish, an octopus...or a Na'ka'leen Feeder - maybe Deuce wasn't that far off when he used one as a fake Vorlon :D
I love every episode with Cartagia in it.
Tragedy is Londo was so giddy about leading Catargia by the nose he completely missed the moment he could have saved the eye that cannot see.
If that was about that eye. G'Kar's eyes could see... Well, before the end of this episode. I always thought it was about an eye that had never been able to see.
In the las episode of season 2 whe Kosh saves Sheridan and Jeff & Brent were joking about his face, calling him handsome squidward, i was laughing because the vorlons are squids, like the sadows evolve of aracnids they evolve of cephalopods.
Amusingly- I shared the existence of this whole series of videos with a friend moments before launching this one... then you asked us to do exactly that.
We all knew at this time that JMS was trying to wrap up B5 to give us all a proper ending. All the threads were coming together quickly...more than he originally planned. The rush certainly added to the pace and excitement, but it did cut down a lot of the character-development and universe-building type stuff. These last two eps were certainly to move all the pieces into the right place in order to have time to tell the rest of the story as cleanly as possible.
Yes, the immanent thread of cancellation became very real in Season 4, so JMS had to rearrange some stuff.
A nice callback to Kosh’s answer to the Centauri Emperor’s question from S2.
”How will it end?”
”With fire”
…
”Let it all burn”
Kosh knew
I really enjoy it when I see a reaction and get a perspective that I had not considered before.
Apotheosis in this context, as I understood it, was always referring to Cartagia's "ascension to Godhood" (falling to Godhood). The "Vorlon perspective" for the term is quite interesting.
There's a double meaning in the word Apotheosis, here. Using it as a highest point or climax is the most common way it's used today, but it also means the achieving of godhood or deification. And you could interpret a few characters heading in that direction at this point in the series, some more intentionally and overtly than others...
And as we see, the ascension to divinity is a rough road. At least for others.
Once again, I want to shout out Wortham Krimmer for his just superb performance as Cartagia. He really plays the character to the hilt, and it really makes it satisfying when [Redacted for spoilers].
‘
‘
‘
‘
‘
‘
‘
‘
“You must save the eye that does not see.”
It's a shame that he gave up acting and decided to become a lawyer.
@@inhumanmusic1411 Lawyers can do a lot with acting ... in court ... because they need to be able to hide their personal reactions and pretend something different from what they feel.
You are correct though ... because 99% of lawyers are evil ...
@@Muck006 Lawyers have to work with words, but that isn't acting. It's the exegesis of the codes of law.
Apotheosis is quite literally the ascension to divinity.
Jeff actually told him that last episode 😂
Thinking of that Chop Suey song by SOAD:
"I cry when angels deserve to die..."
The Vorlon needed dealing with, what better way than letting Kosh do it?
Falling Towards Apotheosis - within this context - means falling toward godhood as we see messianic imagery surrounding Sheridan, "The One Who Will Be." Also , not really a spoiler since JMS noted on the newsgroups during the original run that Kosh 2.0 is named Ulkesh. He confirmed that Kosh was indeed the oldest of the remaining Vorlons and unlike his "coworker," maintained something of a sentimental spot for the younger races.
To Jeff and Brett: Wait to look this up until after the show. Too many spoilers. With that said, Precendence Publishing did an INCREDIBLE job with a Babylon 5 Collectible Card Game. Part of the wonder is the little reveals by designating Kosh Naranek and Kosh Ulkesk. It is the only CCG that I put on-par with Magic: The Gathering. Sadly, fighting between WB and JMS killed it too soon. It is still an incredible way to relive alternate versions of the show.
He has always been here.
As I recall, the name Ulkesh began with the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows, written by JMS' wife, Kathryn Drennan.
It got used in the card game after that. And in the Mongoose RPG games, becomes the basis of the 'Kesh' aspect of Vorlons, paired with the Kosh, and Kail aspects, too. @@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984
Apotheosis: "Ahh - poth - Eee - oh - sis"
Great techo song about it in the 90's
Also the "end" of Caprica, when the Cylons 'ascend'.
@@kevinmorbidthelostcronin1984 And the end of Mahler's 3rd symphony.
Carthagia is among the greatest "fun but evil" characters ... on a similar level as Dolores Umbridge.
Since the end of season 2, its been so hard not to shout spoilers in the comments. I've known this whole ride has been coming and hearing you guys wax lyrical on what you think will happen is always so fun to hear.
You're going to love the rest of this season, See you monday.
What time is it? Time to take out the Vorlon.
Good thing Kosh proved to be so good, in the end.
Yeah, Kosh was a jerk
@brentallenlive yeah but Kosh is a good guy. But that Kosh guy... he's a one ugly mf when he's angry. Good thing we have Kosh who is a good guy.
Yes, sometime near the end of Season 3 (when, one can debate) B5 transitioned to much more a serialized story, which is also what fans of B5 remember and so talk about it a lot. The question is how long does it stay that way...
Sheridan on his Tony Soprano sh*t this episode 🤣🤣🤣
Yo, yo, yo! Why don't you step out of that encounter suit....bee-otch! (B5 re-made by Vince Gilligan)
BTW, there is a Babylon 5 reference made in Breaking Bad
You’re making me want to watch breaking bad again. Thanks.
@@tommcmahanThere is? Looks like I miss this one
Yep. It's in a late episode, Walt has paid the Bill Burr character to keep an eye on Badger and Skinny Pete because he's trying to find out what's going on with Jesse, and Burr's character tells him something like..."all they did was sit around talking for hours about something called...Babylon 5"?
That may even be in the last episode, but if not, it's pretty late in the series
So... what do we think about the Vorlons now?
They’re…just a little upset. That’s all.
@@brentallenlivemust be the weather
So yeah Kosh 2 Electric Boogaloo :)
I don't think Kosh 2 (Ulkesh) represents the entirety of the Vorlon race anymore than Kosh did. Something tells me that the Vorlons wanted to send the exact opposite of Kosh to B5 due to his "failure" so they sent a real hardline jerk.
what did Kosh say to the dying Centauri Emperor when he asked how it would end? " IN FIRE "
No spoilers for past episodes
Yeah, they're going to do a second watch and this is exactly the kind of thing they'll want to discover then.
To be fair Jeff made the connection when watching so will probably bring it up with Brent, but if he doesn't Brent gets to find out second time around when all gloves are off! Entil'Zha Valen!!
Apotheosis means ascending to *godhood*. It has several meanings for this episode.
Season 4 doesn't hang around, does it?
"Falling towards the climax" would actually have been a better title, but someone is a fan of mixed messages in the titles :P
And that's not what Jeff said 😅
@@fubarpie Yes, that is why I made the comment...
Good ups.
Did they already realised that Lorien is Mr. Sebastian?
Several times...
apothosis (from od greek): elevation of a human beeing to devine levels or godhood.