Rick. When Zeppelin's lawyers ask if they can use this episode to definitively win their case in 6:46 minutes, you should tell them only if you can use Zepp's music in your teaching videos. I'm learning a lot from you. Thanks!
PutItAway101 Yep, it’s a concept known in law as “prior art”. Plenty of evidence for that here. A knowledgeable judge would have thrown this case out long ago.
I am thanks Rick! You Rock! Echoing everyone here, you would be a great expert witness. With your Academic background you would do an amazing job. I'm not sure who manages them now? I used to know the old manager, years ago! Ha
The final bars of the coda for the 1st movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony has the same kind of chromatic riff repeating over and over as an ostinato. That was 1824. Last I heard Beethoven has decided to leave Jimmy Page alone.
Actuly anyone can claim old music from 1800s as their own the artist has been dead for over 90 years especially the music ... very soon Jimmy Hendrix music will be free to take
“@SEFTO” I would normally type SEFTO... Then give you my comments. But I’ve noticed everyone does the @ thing? Anyways, I find nothing wrong with Musicians hearing a Bar or a Chord and telling themselves: Wow that Chord is great! I’m going to remember that, and maybe one day I can play it in a Song iI write?? Especially in the ’60s! All those guys knew each other & would borrow sounds from each other ALL THE TIME. It’s when someone literally plays the same EXACT Song, but simply changes the lyrics! I believe there was a case recently of a Pop Song a Male Singer sang and it was the same beats, notes, or whatever? Not that that type of Pop Music is bad... I just prefer not to listen to it? lol, that’s why a cannot give you the names of the 2 Parties involved in the lawsuit? I’m thinking of 🤔 Bruno Mars? But I could be TOTALLY OFF so don’t take that to heart. Maybe it wasn’t Bruno Mars? But it was that type of genre I believe? No, it’s not the Katie Perry lawsuit either. Whether you are a fan of Katie Perry or not? Doesn’t make a bit of difference when it comes to Law and Copying Rights! Katie Perry got TOTALLY hosed and was a COMPLETE JOKE! It was WRONG she lost that lawsuit! Like her or not? The law is the law & Katie didn’t break the law! This isn’t a popularity contest! Talk about a Money Grab! The Dude that Sued her lol doesn’t even Sing?? He Raps, he has no Melody and the beat is similar, but 2 totally different songs! Their lawsuit BS has to stop!
This reminds me of a scene in the Buddy Holly Story where they've hired violin players to provide orchestration. One of the violin guys goes up to Buddy with the sheet music and says that Beethoven himself did something just like this. "Of course, he was quite deaf at the time."
bull! the key to his argument is the term "line Cliche," which is a fake, made up term. and his examples DO NOT SOUND SIMILAR IN THE LEAST. you people are just prejudiced in favor of Led Zeppelin and are too musically ignorant to know how great spirit was. i was listening to spirit years before led zeppelin ever existed!
There's a (maybe apocryphal) story about how Jimmy Page wrote the riff to Stairway to Heaven after he took a jazz lesson with John McLaughlin where McLaughlin taught him My Funny Valentine. Rogers and Hart should be suing, not Spirit!
It really bothers me that there is someone that is suing on behalf of a guy who’s been dead for 21 years. If that isn’t a money grab, I don’t know what is.
It’s exactly like blurred lines. That lawsuit was completely stupid. The grooves may sound similar, but the key, the Melodie, nothing alike. And this is coming from somebody with perfect pitch.
@@handebarlas6248 There are haters who say That Led Zep are thieves But in this case I think they're mistaken. And when this goes to court When the lawyers have fought, Then it seems that some steps will be taken.
This! Absolutely this! Which is why the writer of Spirit, Randy California, didn't think there was any plagiarism. Its just that the people who run his estate are greedy.
@@relayer43 He did, hey figured Jimmy got the idea from this song. But Randy knew that it was common, and that he didn't come up with it either and thus would never be crazy enough to sue Led Zeppelin over the chromatic scale.
To address only the greed issue, if his estate won any royalties they were going to the Randy California Project, an after-school music education program for underprivileged elementary school children in Ventura County. About the song similarities: they are a lot closer melodically than many of the blues cases Zep already lost whose riffs were covered so many times the guys who sued Zep could have been sued themselves by their own rule of thumb.
@@Youman71463 They are not close melodically because Taurus has no melody, Stairway does. In Stairway there is an ascending melody in the opening chords as well as the next melody which is sung. If you watch the video again this should be obvious to you. Peace.
Here is a list of Beatles' songs I can recall that use the line cliché or little variations of it in some part : - Michelle - For no one - While my guitar gently weeps - Lucy in the sky with diamonds - A day in the life - Hello Goodbye - Something - Strawberry fields forever - Dear Prudence - Magical mistery tour - Hey Jude - Fixing a Hole
How old are you, they were sued more than 10 times, no band in history rip-off so many songs, check Jake Holmes Willie Dixon way before stairway to heaven. Homer Simpson: Jimmy Page, the greatest thief of American black music who ever walked the Earth
@N yes, he rearranged the chromatic scale into a progression in the key of A minor -- also known as WRITING A SONG. Jimmy Page was a thief, sure, but you're doing mental gymnastics if you assume ALL of his work is plagiarized. That is a blind assumption that is definitely incorrect. And regardless if this is stolen (which it doesn't matter because it is only a small part of each song, thus making this entire situation moot and meaningless) it's highly unlikely it was pulled from Taurus when there are hundreds of songs with the exact same pattern.
N That’s ridiculous. If there hadn’t been a court case over these few notes would you have said Stairway to Heaven sounds just like Taurus? No. Not even close. Every song ever written borrowed something from songs that came before.
The 1 good thing that came of this lawsuit was introducing Spirit and Randy California to music fans who may have never heard them before. Randy was an incredible guitarist. Check out his cover of Hey Joe.
@Erwin Vomberg that concept predates Bach by at least 100 years. :) Dido's lament used that and appeared when Bach was 3 years old. It's the most famous use of it (this why the figure is called a "lament bass" now*). Even with that said, the figure dates to madrigals in the 1500s. It's as old of a device as you can think of. *Proper name is Passus duriusculsus or in English chromatic fourth.
You are so right, Rick. This lawsuit is so bogus and ridiculous. These chord progressions are incredibly common. You can steel any chord progression and you don't have to sue somebody for it. Great video!!
@N That “rigmarole” is called an inquiry into the elements within the parts in question, you should try it sometime. You have no credible case, and neither did they, so drop the assertion game.
Nat what you think your reasoning/musical knowledge is better than rick beato? Rick is a great musician, even appointed by Steve Vai (if you know who he is). Rick has a reputation, he’s not some random music listener.
Nat plus I’m aware that LZ stole lots of music, Dazed and Confused, Since I’ve Been Loving you (possibly), Whole Lotta Love, to mention three. I’m not a super-biased LZ fan, I have All Along The Watchtower (hendrix), Crossroads (Clapton), Echoes (PF), Blackout (Bowie) in my Favorite sing playlist
The question is always melody. That's what cannot be copied. If you play the notes of a chord you are creating a melody that may be original or a simple accompaniment. There's a sequence of notes in the beginning of Stairway to Heaven that was copied from Taurus, besides the chord progression.
I love Spirit and Randy California, but Led Zep didn't really "steal" anything. It's a great case study for the topic of compositional copyrights though. Also, Taurus is great but let's be clear that Stairway is a masterpiece.
I don't know if you can say Led Zeppelin didn't steal 'anything.' I know you're mostly talking about this particular case, but Zep do have a history of straight up stealing parts of or whole entire songs. I love both Spirit and Zeppelin and I think this case is a gray area, but Zeppelin and Spirit did hang out together, and Jimmy definitely owned some of their records. They even break into a rendition of 'Fresh Garbage' during a live show. So I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine Jimmy listening to Taurus and trying to figure it out on guitar, then that seeping into his creation of Stairway later. I don't think it's grounds to be sued over though. As you allude to, Stairway is a much longer and complicated song that, after the intro, goes off into it's own unique territory. I could see how if the roles were reversed they'd have more of a case.
GhostofBelleIsle Please stick to the topic at hand. We're talking about this specific song. Besides, Randy California, when he was still alive didn't think LZ stole it. He knew that the chord progression was a very common one. The people who brought the lawsuit were California's greedy estate guardians.
If Zeppelin hadn't toured with them then the lawsuit would have never made it to court. If Zeppelin hadn't made it big and have deep pockets the lawsuit would have never been filed. Thanks Rick, and I think you could start a career as an expert witness in these frivolous music lawsuits!
The Willie Dixon lawsuits have merit, but this is someone trying to make a dirty dime, off a dead man's song, by suing a band who have had similar problems before.
Also, the fact that Zeppelin has been sued successfully in the past for stealing lyrics makes them a target for every sleazebag ambulance-chasing lawyer out there with dollar signs in their eyes.
I have been playing guitar for over 50 years and you sir are on the money. Excellent explanation. I remember in 1972 listening to and learning this song. dissecting it note for note. And It made allot of learning other songs easier. The writer is a master of his style of guitar. As a studio musician he mastered many styles and cord progressions as well as his famous finger style. He did not invent anything new but he sure as hell wrote Stairway to Heaven. Long live Jimmie Page
He wrote plenty of progressions and songs that were unseen at the time. His melodic construction in the rain song by zeppelin is absolutely the most beautiful noise I’ve ever heard
Agreed, but I'll admit that LZ did rip off parts of other songs like Babe I'm Gonna Leave You (Joan Baez cover of a "traditional"), Dazed and Confused (Jake Holmes), Custard Pie (kinda), The Lemon Song (Howlin'Wolf), Since I've Been Lovin' You (Moby Grape). Lots of those have a melody, chords progression, and lyrics that are close enough they should have given more credit to other artists.
It's no secret they've "Borrowed" a lot of ideas, but let's be serious, Stairways to heaven and Taurus are not similar in any way. They only share one musical idea that has been used since classical music.
The only thing that's similar is the chord progressions in the beginning and even then they aren't even played the same. Both songs are completely different from each other other than the beginning. The fact that this lawsuit was even given the time of day to begin with is absurd. YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT A CHORD PROGRESSION lol!
Diego Coelho Willie Dixon deserved to win his lawsuit, as they were straight up using his lyrics, or very slightly changing them. This guy trying to profit off a dead man's song, doesn't have the same case. There are a few others that have more similarities, and either have been settled, or were thrown out.
@@topherthe11th23 Your statement is a tautology: Plagarism is plagiarism. This was not plagiarism, according to the court which agreed with Rick’s assessment. The similarities between Taurus and Stairway to Heaven are not extensive enough that they meet the standard.
Except that Rick did that entire video without mentioning a single word about Zeppelin's entrenched history of presenting other people's music as their own. Rick's tagline here might as well have been: "If the riff doesn't fit, you must acquit." You've wantonly ignored a mountain of other pertinent evidence in order to arrive at your conclusion.
@@dahawk8574 yeah, but that's not really the point is it?. If I write a song with a common chord progression like D Am C G, and somebody else hears that song and writes their own entirely different tune using those four chords, they have stolen nothing. You cannot own the fundamentals of making music. That's ridiculous.
@@dahawk8574 What the fuck are you talking about? The lawsuit is about STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN. Not about any other song by Led Zeppelin. Jimmy Page stole plenty-- but he did not steal Stairway to Heaven, and the lawsuit has nothing to do with anything else. The fact that LZ stole other songs is not evidence (certainly not a mountain of it) that this was stolen.
9th March 2020. The day that Led Zep won their case against Michael Skidmore, who lets hope, has been landed with a mountain of legal costs for his greedy and cynical try on. I'd like to think that the Led Zep legal team played Rick's video for the jury, and that his excellent argument reinforced what was already obvious.
@@eroccha any money that would have been awarded would go to the Randy California trust . A charity which was set up to help young musicians in Ventura county California buy instruments and pay for tuition . Mick Skidmore gets zip .
@@classicrockalbumreviews19 Again I will say royalties pay well. He would have gotten writing credits that would entitle him to royalties. He did not need to list royalties in this lawsuit for that he just needed to get credit. Royalties would have made him millions. Luckily this was not the same as Spirit and it was also a cliche that has been used in music for centuries. Taurus did not come up with it so no worries.
I've long been on ZEP's side of this debate and seen a dozen videos for each argument. This one is easily the most clear and concise, while also thorough explanation as to why the law suit is beyond silliness. Cheers, Rick. And YAY Led Zep!
I love this. Musicians hear these similarities constantly between all kinds of music. I mean, after all, there’s only 12 notes in Western music live long enough and listen to enough songs and you’ll hear the similarities. Not a ripoff at all...
Thank you Mr. Beato, for this clarification. I think it was very important that you took your arguement to the 1930s and 1940s to make your point. I appreciate the time you took to explain this situation.
Rick, I think what really solidifies your argument is the point about the 1-4-5 blues progression. For that matter, if it wasn’t for the 1-4-5 and especially the 1-6-4-5 progressions in so many songs of the 50s and early 60s, I doubt rock and roll would have meant very much.
There's a difference between borrowing something and changing it enough to make it your own, to what Led have a history with. Led Zeppelin are known to take whole parts of melodies and lyrics.
@@DB-pi3fs To me The Who and Led Zeppelin are two different types of music. I can imagine someone liking The Who and dont liking Led and vice versa. I dont like Jimi Hendrix that much for an example.
3/9/20 Led Zeppelin prevailed in a long-running copyright dispute after the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a jury verdict, saying that the rock band's 1971 megahit "Stairway to Heaven" did not illegally borrow from Spirit's 1968 track "Taurus."
@@DG-sf9ei "California drowned in 1997 at the age of 45 while rescuing his 12-year-old son Quinn from a rip current near the home of his mother, He managed to push Quinn (who survived) toward the shore. kidnapping
@@DG-sf9ei California drowned in 1997 at the age of 45 while rescuing his 12-year-old son Quinn from a rip current near the home of his mother, He managed to push Quinn (who survived) toward the shore. The Randy Craig Wolfe Trust was established after his death and, using royalties from California's recording contracts, financially supports the Randy California Project, an after-school music education program for underprivileged elementary school children in Ventura County. Now, lets talk about Page and the 14 year old girl he had kidnapped and had sex with.......Allegedly [not]
I agree it was a BS lawsuit. I love that first Spirit album, it's a shame most people just know it from this controversy. To anyone reading this: give a listen if you haven't, it's a wonderful unique intersection of psychadelic rock, blues, and jazz that doesn't sound QUITE like any other album (...including Led Zeppelin ;) )
I think it's always pertinent to mention that the suit was not brought about by "Taurus's" composer Randy California (Wolfe). He most likely understood Rock and Roll's tradition of the "cop." By the way you should all be checking out Spirit's first four albums, particularly their masterpiece "The 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus."
If you knew what yo were talking about, you'd know that he actually did want to sue them, and even talked about them stealing his song in the reissue album's liner notes. He even explained that they said they did not know of his song, but he knew they were lying because not only had the played shows with Zeppelin, but Zeppelin actually played their song Fresh Garbage at their live shows, which came from the same album. So it is kind of coincidental that for years Zeppelin played one of their songs at live shows, and the song came from the same album, but they claimed they had never heard the song. Not to mention, Zeppelin was successfully sued several times for stealing music, and paid settlements and had to give writing credits to multiple artist. They stole a song from Willie Dixon, and he sued and won, then they had the audacity to steal more music from him after he sued them, so he sued them again, and won again. He was paid, and also now has writing credits on multiple Zeppelin songs. Zeppelin was literally taking entire verses and claiming they wrote them. Zeppelin are the Carlos Mencia of Rock & Roll. They stole from everybody. Plant even famously said they thought it was okay to steal, because they never thought anybody would hear it. Zeppelin was garbage, and was basically just good at making other people's music sound great.
Ah, the beauty of the internet - 5 years ago I make a passing comment and today I get a reply from some nasty knowitall telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I have those reissue liner notes too and I know all about Led Zeppelin's plagiarism facts and fictions. I believe my statement still is still true - Randy California did not sue Led Zeppelin. My opinion that he understood the "cop" remains an opinion. As well as "12 Dreams" is amazing. Now go have a happy day.@@chrisgullett4332
Grammy material? I mean, I understand that your comment is from 2 years ago, but the fact that a Bad Bunny's album was nominated as best album of the year (that man CAN'T sing and CAN'T play an instrument), means that nowadays POPULARITY has more weight than TALENT for the Grammys! 🙄
What about Steely Dan?? They use very unique chord progressions which, if copied by another artist, a judge just might consider that infringement. Common chord progressions, no infringement, unique ones - they open the door to the possibility of infringement.
ScubaStevee62 if that were the case, you imagine how many copyrihts would be infringed by jazz, fusion, funk, and latin music? Using the Hotel California chord progression would be infringed by many, and in turn by the Eagles. It is impossible to own chord progressions when the melody is not the same. Look at Coldplay and Joe Satriani.
100% accurate, Page also employed counterpoint in the progression, a technique common in English Baroque music. The lawsuit never had a leg to stand on from the beginning!!
"The 9th Circuit Court of Apppeals upheld a jury verdict that found that "Stairway to Heaven" did not infringe on the 1968 song "Taurus" by the rock band Spirit. In doing so, the court overturned a controversial precedent the 9th Circuit has used in copyright cases." CNN, March 10, 2020.
when I heard about this whole lawsuit over "stealing a song"... I was expecting to hear a nearly identical into, melody, lyrics, chorus ect.. but I couldn't believe these guys actually think they are "owed" credit for stairway to heaven on the grounds that a few seconds sound similar...absolutely REDICULOUS!!
Hiya I actually like the Spirit one a lot . I think Zeppelin backed them , They have that fantasy mystical feel . I think it is similar ,but like you said it’s just the line cliche . I think this cliche is like a motif in Stairway For Heaven and keeps building on it and only briefly in Spirit before moving off to string . Stair Way To Heaven is a monster song too . It must have generated millions . Could you imagine the money in back payments they would have to pay the executives and would it then be free for them to use in advertisements. Scary . Such a beautiful song . It should be sacred and beyond this base attempt to cash in on it .
Correction : Zeppelin opened for Spirit for one single Concert-Denver, December 26th, 1968. It was the one and only time the two bands ever shared a stage.
Henceforth I shall only write in F major with no modal borrowings or modulations that'd feature F#. Take that, random internet person who I'm sure is speaking the truth.
What bothers me most about this case is that isnt not Randy Wolfe himself doing the suing, he died some time ago. Correct me if Im wrong but Im fairly sure the similarities were pointed out to him and he really didnt give a damn. This is what happens when you have non musicians running the music business and owning copyrights to songs they didnt write.
Led Zeppelin Wins Copyright Battle Over 'Stairway To Heaven' The Supreme Court declined to hear whether Jimmy Page plagiarized an instrumental by 1960s band Spirit to create the riff for the classic 1971 rock ballad. The copyright battle over the iconic riff to “Stairway to Heaven” will not lead to the steps of the Supreme Court. The court on Monday declined to take up a long-running legal fight over whether Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page plagiarized “Taurus,” a 1968 instrumental by the 1960s band Spirit, to create the riff for the classic 1971 rock ballad. The justices didn’t offer any explanation for declining to review the case, according to The Hollywood Reporter. Variety reports the decision ended six years of litigation. The high court’s decision not to hear the case leaves in place a decision from March in which the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit upheld a jury verdict finding “Stairway” did not infringe on “Taurus,” according to Variety. The suit was filed in 2014 by the estate of Spirit guitarist Randy Wolfe, who drowned in 1997.
boblob2003 and Jimmy Page has been a session musician before he hit it big...he had to know a little of everything to get work, and no doubt his sight reading lessons with Big Jim Sullivan would have included some Carcussi or Sor-Great sounding tunes that help your playing and reading chops !
Excellent *Rick* And exactly right.... I've used line cliches in my compositions... Most modern music is arguably based on other and much older forms of musical cliche, chord progressions, phrasings, cadences or whatever... And musicians should be okay with that. I know I am. What's the common adage ... ? 'Standing on the shoulders of giants.' Can you see Beethoven or Bach sueing Jon Lord or Keith Emmerson, or even The Electric Light Orchestra? People who whinge about copywrite are avaricious narcissists anyway... *MANTRA - Definition - '' A sound vibration, that delivers the mind from illusion '* Music transcends all language barriers and promotes pure harmony.
EXCELLENT JOB!!!!! I agree - this is unequivocally the best video/discussion i have seen on this - just excellent explaining the chromatic line - as a guitar player for over 30 years, I make all the same arguments you have in this video. Again, great job. thank you for this video.
I agree with you, people just can't stand Zeppelin's stature. t's almost like people want to reduce them so they can claim all these other crappy bands have more validity and that no one could really be as good as Zeppelin seems. I don't doubt that Zeppelin took different musical ideas from all over the place, but the truth is that these guys were a force of nature--if all you had to do to be Led Zeppelin was borrow some good ideas there would have been a lot more Led Zeppelins. They never produced anything that wasn't wholly reworked in their own image, even when an element is borrowed they transformed it into something totally unique--that's why no one before or since can imitate them!
This is a great video and I agree with you completely. There’s a big difference between influence and copying. Modern music uses the same chord progressions over and over. It’s the melody that makes a song unique.
Chris OConnor - I've always wished I could get a copyright on the letter 'e'. It's the most common letter in the English language and if I could get just one penny in royalties for every time someone spoke a word containing the letter 'e', I'd be rich beyond belief.
Nailed it ... all boils down to the fact that there's a limited number of chords and a limited number ways to put them together in a way that sounds good ... there's millions of songs being created ... it's inevitable that the most popular songs are going to share the common progressions that sound really great.
Not gonna lie: when I first heard the Spirit tune, I thought "wow, Zeppelin obviously stole that one, it sounds so very similar". Didn't know the line cliche was THAT common though, so thanks for clearing it up
@@rrockhard1... It is a proven fact that Led Zeppelin opened for Spirit ONCE. It was December 26th, 1968, during Zep's very first concert in North America. Denver, to be precise. Nitwits on TH-cam are always saying how they "toured together". Nope! ONE show only. More ignorant accusations from people who are too lazy or dull to do a little research. 🤣
@@MJEvermore853 i guess you didn't see when they was on the news saying that they opened for zeppelin smh the point is the songs are similar page siad they opened for them in theres a video on TH-cam my friend!
This would never happened if Randy were still alive, I met Randy when he toured opening for the Righteous Brothers and Johnny Rivers - he was a good guy and when I told him that he, Carlos Santana, and Jimmy Page are the reasons I picked up a guitar he had a big smile. Randy was working on a project with ex Doors guitarist Robbie Krieger and he was so excited to get that completed - but as fate would have it, he died a hero saving his son in a riptide, RIP.
If Randy were still alive I don't think he would have necessarily gone so far as to sue them, but he did feel raw about it and thought they ripped them off: turnmeondeadman.com/randy-californias-thoughts-on-stairway-to-heaven/
I remember having the sheet music for Led Zeplin and reading advice from Jimmy Page.He said spend long times listening to tunes and copy your ass off.Cause that's what we do as players.Anyone else recall this quote?
@@ralphwhittemore5041 No. And Page, ( and any other musician for that matter) wouldn't have been stupid enough to even think of such a thing. That's ridiculous.
Here’s one I just discovered. While up on my travel trailer doing some repairs, I was listening to Tony Joe White’s “They Caught the Devil and Put Him In Jail in Eudora, Arkansas”. Now that’s a mouthful. What struck me is how similar the song is to “Woodstock” by Joni Mitchell. White’s song was released in 1971 but i don’t know when he wrote it. Mitchell’s was written in 1969 when she, apparently, was stuck in a hotel room and couldn’t get to the festival. It’s not just a question of chord progressions. Some lines were lifted. White’s - “By the the time I got to Miss Johnson’s house, I knew there was something wrong.” Mitchell’s - “By the time we got to Woodstock, we were half a million strong…” or Mitchell’s “We are stardust we are broken, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden”. Or “billion year old carbon, caught in the devil’s bargain.” White’s - “He would not say where he got the money was he part of the devil’s bargain…” I like both artists but I am hoping one credited the other for inspiration.
Super Funky Badass No. Randy California died in the 90’s saving his kid from a riptide. He didn’t sue. The ESTATE, ever greedy relatives and such, sued.
Excellent comparison. The differences between Spirit's "Taurus" and Led Zepplin's "Stairway to Heaven" are manifest. Line cliches have been around for centuries; it's just another musical tool.
Every single popular musician has borrowed ideas from other songs. There would be no such thing as music if people were sued for every slightest similarity between songs
Rick...you're right again, bands should not be sued for chord progressions unless it is a blatant rip off. People remember the melodies of the vocals....they don't remember the lyrics etc.
The riff in the Spirit song is actually more like the 2nd part of "Is There Anybody Out There?" by Pink Floyd. Also much closer to that harmonically. Maybe they should sue Pink Floyd too.
Great discussion! I know all of these differences.. was always adamant because the're all beautiful line clichés! One can even find this movement in old French Accordian music etc..
Great to hear an articulate musician / musicologist expanding in this case. If I had actually chosen to go to college, I’d be a wealthy cat if I had a professor like this. Thanks Rick!! H.M., filmworker / vinyl archivist / aficionado of significant compositions & arrangements
Rick. When Zeppelin's lawyers ask if they can use this episode to definitively win their case in 6:46 minutes, you should tell them only if you can use Zepp's music in your teaching videos. I'm learning a lot from you. Thanks!
There losing the case buddy you need to catch up
Jimi Guitar even if they lose they will appeal the decision.
@@jimiguitar6324 And now Led Zeppelin has won the case, unless the Spirit-ed lawyers can convince the Supreme Court to listen to their arguments.
@@garanceadrosehn9691 That's not going to happen.
Zep lawyer needs you in his corner! Great video as always.
Jason Bone Zep Lawyer is probably thinking, ‘Excellent, this should pay for the swimming pool.’
And this chord progression is in the public domain.
PutItAway101 Yep, it’s a concept known in law as “prior art”. Plenty of evidence for that here. A knowledgeable judge would have thrown this case out long ago.
This is the best video I’ve ever seen about this! It’s also better than any article I’ve read! Bravo Rick!!
Yes, Rick really laid it out perfectly!
Thanks Warren! I hope you are well!!
I am thanks Rick! You Rock! Echoing everyone here, you would be a great expert witness. With your Academic background you would do an amazing job. I'm not sure who manages them now? I used to know the old manager, years ago! Ha
Hi foreigner fan haha he looks pretty darn smart to me!
Harmony Studios yes he did!! Extremely well explained!
The final bars of the coda for the 1st movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony has the same kind of chromatic riff repeating over and over as an ostinato. That was 1824. Last I heard Beethoven has decided to leave Jimmy Page alone.
Actuly anyone can claim old music from 1800s as their own the artist has been dead for over 90 years especially the music ... very soon Jimmy Hendrix music will be free to take
“@SEFTO” I would normally type SEFTO... Then give you my comments. But I’ve noticed everyone does the @ thing? Anyways, I find nothing wrong with Musicians hearing a Bar or a Chord and telling themselves: Wow that Chord is great! I’m going to remember that, and maybe one day I can play it in a Song iI write?? Especially in the ’60s! All those guys knew each other & would borrow sounds from each other ALL THE TIME. It’s when someone literally plays the same EXACT Song, but simply changes the lyrics! I believe there was a case recently of a Pop Song a Male Singer sang and it was the same beats, notes, or whatever? Not that that type of Pop Music is bad... I just prefer not to listen to it? lol, that’s why a cannot give you the names of the 2 Parties involved in the lawsuit? I’m thinking of 🤔 Bruno Mars? But I could be TOTALLY OFF so don’t take that to heart. Maybe it wasn’t Bruno Mars? But it was that type of genre I believe? No, it’s not the Katie Perry lawsuit either. Whether you are a fan of Katie Perry or not? Doesn’t make a bit of difference when it comes to Law and Copying Rights! Katie Perry got TOTALLY hosed and was a COMPLETE JOKE! It was WRONG she lost that lawsuit! Like her or not? The law is the law & Katie didn’t break the law! This isn’t a popularity contest! Talk about a Money Grab! The Dude that Sued her lol doesn’t even Sing?? He Raps, he has no Melody and the beat is similar, but 2 totally different songs! Their lawsuit BS has to stop!
@@kenduffy5397 But there are real cases where ledzeplin stole songs and slapped their stamp of approval on it
@@FiendishlyDelightedSefto Yes, but it has no bearing on this song
This reminds me of a scene in the Buddy Holly Story where they've hired violin players to provide orchestration. One of the violin guys goes up to Buddy with the sheet music and says that Beethoven himself did something just like this. "Of course, he was quite deaf at the time."
This guy would be an incredible music copyright defense lawyer. And I love the mash ups. He made Zepplin’s case in a little less than seven minutes!
He definitely would be recognized as an expert witness.
bull! the key to his argument is the term "line Cliche," which is a fake, made up term. and his examples DO NOT SOUND SIMILAR IN THE LEAST. you people are just prejudiced in favor of Led Zeppelin and are too musically ignorant to know how great spirit was. i was listening to spirit years before led zeppelin ever existed!
There's a (maybe apocryphal) story about how Jimmy Page wrote the riff to Stairway to Heaven after he took a jazz lesson with John McLaughlin where McLaughlin taught him My Funny Valentine. Rogers and Hart should be suing, not Spirit!
You and Rick and some other music youtubers should team up and go to these courts and inform the juries on how music works
Adam Neely Roger and Hart probably could have sued a lot of people :) I have heard that McLaughlin story too. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s true.
yeah its a bit much..cliches are used all over the places..it should just be acknowleged as a cliche
...is my funny valentine a play on my bloody valentine?
@@ggthewhale the other way around
It really bothers me that there is someone that is suing on behalf of a guy who’s been dead for 21 years. If that isn’t a money grab, I don’t know what is.
Its called a lawyer !
It’s exactly like blurred lines. That lawsuit was completely stupid. The grooves may sound similar, but the key, the Melodie, nothing alike. And this is coming from somebody with perfect pitch.
@@laartwork that's false. Look at the writing credits on their albums.
The fact that they wanted 500 million out of this makes it more obvious that its a cash grab.
@@Enjoimaschine-- "@Leon Jimenez that's false. Look at the writing credits on their albums." Many [or even most] of the credits exist due to lawsuits!
“There’s a lawyer who knows all that matters is gold, and he’s trying an unfair case to get some…”
Ha ha good one!
👍
If there's a hell, you'll find many lawyers and many recording company executives there.
@@handebarlas6248
There are haters who say
That Led Zep are thieves
But in this case I think they're mistaken.
And when this goes to court
When the lawyers have fought,
Then it seems that some steps will be taken.
@@CB-xr1eg Oh Wow! Exquisite! Thank you so much Clive!
This video has changed my mind.
I am now a little less ignorant then I was 10 minutes ago.
Thanks, Rick!
It's a descending chromatic line, also known as a lament in Baroque music, made popular by Henry Purcell, he should get the credit.
One descending in half steps and another ascending. Correct?
he shouldn't get the credit since it was used for hundreds of years.
@@eroccha it’s a joke
This! Absolutely this! Which is why the writer of Spirit, Randy California, didn't think there was any plagiarism. Its just that the people who run his estate are greedy.
I think Randy California kind of went back and forth about that in interviews, which is annoying to be honest...
@@relayer43 He did, hey figured Jimmy got the idea from this song. But Randy knew that it was common, and that he didn't come up with it either and thus would never be crazy enough to sue Led Zeppelin over the chromatic scale.
To address only the greed issue, if his estate won any royalties they were going to the Randy California Project, an after-school music education program for underprivileged elementary school children in Ventura County. About the song similarities: they are a lot closer melodically than many of the blues cases Zep already lost whose riffs were covered so many times the guys who sued Zep could have been sued themselves by their own rule of thumb.
@@Youman71463 They are not close melodically because Taurus has no melody, Stairway does. In Stairway there is an ascending melody in the opening chords as well as the next melody which is sung. If you watch the video again this should be obvious to you. Peace.
starman714 no dude, Dazed and Confused and SIBLY are much more similar to their originals
Next time you're trying a guitar in a music store which bans the playing of Stairway To Heaven, tell them you're playing Taurus :-)
Alec Middleton LoL 😂
Like in Wayne's World
Denied
or my funny valentine....neat comment alec
Listeners won't know the difference.
Here is a list of Beatles' songs I can recall that use the line cliché or little variations of it in some part :
- Michelle
- For no one
- While my guitar gently weeps
- Lucy in the sky with diamonds
- A day in the life
- Hello Goodbye
- Something
- Strawberry fields forever
- Dear Prudence
- Magical mistery tour
- Hey Jude
- Fixing a Hole
The Beatles loved the chromatic thing.
Also:
Babe I’m gonna leave you by Zeppelin. Yes it’s a different shape and is on a different part of the guitar but it is a line cliche
JRussoC Brilliant. Minds like yours belong to magnificent players.
That riff also made me start humming Jim Croce’s time in a bottle-
Finally someone explained this to a lay person like me in a way that I can totally understand. Awesome job!!!!
its only because stairway is really successful. if stairway was a failure they wouldn't care
Amen
I agree with you. What may be a contributing factor is that Robert Plant is prickly and has a reputation for clashing with all and sundry.
No, its because they have a history of ripping people off.
@@N8SAY They don't, but keep pushing internet bullshit and being an internet fool.
How old are you, they were sued more than 10 times, no band in history rip-off so many songs, check Jake Holmes Willie Dixon way before stairway to heaven.
Homer Simpson: Jimmy Page, the greatest thief of American black music who ever walked the Earth
Why wasn't Rick in that courtroom?!
Also, everything is from Bach.
And as everybody knows, Bach is very much dead to sue.
@N yes, he rearranged the chromatic scale into a progression in the key of A minor -- also known as WRITING A SONG. Jimmy Page was a thief, sure, but you're doing mental gymnastics if you assume ALL of his work is plagiarized. That is a blind assumption that is definitely incorrect. And regardless if this is stolen (which it doesn't matter because it is only a small part of each song, thus making this entire situation moot and meaningless) it's highly unlikely it was pulled from Taurus when there are hundreds of songs with the exact same pattern.
N That’s ridiculous. If there hadn’t been a court case over these few notes would you have said Stairway to Heaven sounds just like Taurus? No. Not even close.
Every song ever written borrowed something from songs that came before.
buddyrichable1 or, as Nipy Noya said, “everything has already been invented, we are just discovering it”.
@N BS
The 1 good thing that came of this lawsuit was introducing Spirit and Randy California to music fans who may have never heard them before. Randy was an incredible guitarist. Check out his cover of Hey Joe.
So all of them ripped of from Piazzolla for using descencing chromatic basses?? This nonsense lawsuits need to stop
lawyers are the issue...
@Erwin Vomberg that concept predates Bach by at least 100 years. :) Dido's lament used that and appeared when Bach was 3 years old.
It's the most famous use of it (this why the figure is called a "lament bass" now*).
Even with that said, the figure dates to madrigals in the 1500s. It's as old of a device as you can think of.
*Proper name is Passus duriusculsus or in English chromatic fourth.
“Let’s listen to stairway to heaven” good idea see you in 8 minutes
You are so right, Rick. This lawsuit is so bogus and ridiculous. These chord progressions are incredibly common. You can steel any chord progression and you don't have to sue somebody for it. Great video!!
@N That “rigmarole” is called an inquiry into the elements within the parts in question, you should try it sometime. You have no credible case, and neither did they, so drop the assertion game.
Nat what you think your reasoning/musical knowledge is better than rick beato? Rick is a great musician, even appointed by Steve Vai (if you know who he is). Rick has a reputation, he’s not some random music listener.
Nat plus I’m aware that LZ stole lots of music, Dazed and Confused, Since I’ve Been Loving you (possibly), Whole Lotta Love, to mention three. I’m not a super-biased LZ fan, I have All Along The Watchtower (hendrix), Crossroads (Clapton), Echoes (PF), Blackout (Bowie) in my Favorite sing playlist
@@maulanasatyaadigama3408 dazed and confused from jake holmes!! Different structure, different melodies, different vibe
The question is always melody. That's what cannot be copied.
If you play the notes of a chord you are creating a melody that may be original or a simple accompaniment.
There's a sequence of notes in the beginning of Stairway to Heaven that was copied from Taurus, besides the chord progression.
I love Spirit and Randy California, but Led Zep didn't really "steal" anything. It's a great case study for the topic of compositional copyrights though. Also, Taurus is great but let's be clear that Stairway is a masterpiece.
I don't know if you can say Led Zeppelin didn't steal 'anything.' I know you're mostly talking about this particular case, but Zep do have a history of straight up stealing parts of or whole entire songs. I love both Spirit and Zeppelin and I think this case is a gray area, but Zeppelin and Spirit did hang out together, and Jimmy definitely owned some of their records. They even break into a rendition of 'Fresh Garbage' during a live show. So I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine Jimmy listening to Taurus and trying to figure it out on guitar, then that seeping into his creation of Stairway later. I don't think it's grounds to be sued over though. As you allude to, Stairway is a much longer and complicated song that, after the intro, goes off into it's own unique territory. I could see how if the roles were reversed they'd have more of a case.
GhostofBelleIsle Please stick to the topic at hand. We're talking about this specific song. Besides, Randy California, when he was still alive didn't think LZ stole it. He knew that the chord progression was a very common one. The people who brought the lawsuit were California's greedy estate guardians.
@@MrTechselect Randy California wanted to sue them, look it up. He actually spoke about it!
@@Maxim89Il, will then Mr California was a bit dull in the head, wasnt he? 😅
If Zeppelin hadn't toured with them then the lawsuit would have never made it to court. If Zeppelin hadn't made it big and have deep pockets the lawsuit would have never been filed. Thanks Rick, and I think you could start a career as an expert witness in these frivolous music lawsuits!
Well said Kent its ridiculous.
See you down in Arizona bay!😉
The Willie Dixon lawsuits have merit, but this is someone trying to make a dirty dime, off a dead man's song, by suing a band who have had similar problems before.
Also, the fact that Zeppelin has been sued successfully in the past for stealing lyrics makes them a target for every sleazebag ambulance-chasing lawyer out there with dollar signs in their eyes.
Didn't you watch the video? There are countless songs which were equally likely to be the influence for both of these songs.
"A jury of peers." Shouldn't that mean the jury should be composers, or at least musicians?
Rick, testify as an expert witness on behalf of Led Zeppelin!
If Rick Beato testified on Zeppelin's behalf, the trial would last as long as this video did!
I have been playing guitar for over 50 years and you sir are on the money. Excellent explanation. I remember in 1972 listening to and learning this song. dissecting it note for note. And It made allot of learning other songs easier. The writer is a master of his style of guitar. As a studio musician he mastered many styles and cord progressions as well as his famous finger style. He did not invent anything new but he sure as hell wrote Stairway to Heaven. Long live Jimmie Page
He wrote plenty of progressions and songs that were unseen at the time. His melodic construction in the rain song by zeppelin is absolutely the most beautiful noise I’ve ever heard
Well said Rick, this lawsuit is complete nonsense!
Agreed, but I'll admit that LZ did rip off parts of other songs like Babe I'm Gonna Leave You (Joan Baez cover of a "traditional"), Dazed and Confused (Jake Holmes), Custard Pie (kinda), The Lemon Song (Howlin'Wolf), Since I've Been Lovin' You (Moby Grape). Lots of those have a melody, chords progression, and lyrics that are close enough they should have given more credit to other artists.
@@jophusxakc3192no. Similar lyrics in a few cases, yeah. Melodies? No way. Gotta try a little harder than this.
Great input. Couldn’t agree more. Almost as ridiculous as when Fogerty was accused of plagiarizing himself.
John actually played both songs on the stand to show the difference between Run thru the Jungle and Old Man down the Road.
I wouldn't consider Saul Zaentz's lawsuit as ridiculous, it was vengeful.
It's no secret they've "Borrowed" a lot of ideas, but let's be serious, Stairways to heaven and Taurus are not similar in any way.
They only share one musical idea that has been used since classical music.
The only thing that's similar is the chord progressions in the beginning and even then they aren't even played the same. Both songs are completely different from each other other than the beginning. The fact that this lawsuit was even given the time of day to begin with is absurd. YOU CAN'T COPYRIGHT A CHORD PROGRESSION lol!
Diego Coelho A lot of artists were only credited after lawsuits
Diego Coelho
Willie Dixon deserved to win his lawsuit, as they were straight up using his lyrics, or very slightly changing them.
This guy trying to profit off a dead man's song, doesn't have the same case.
There are a few others that have more similarities, and either have been settled, or were thrown out.
There are far better examples of Zeppelin lifting melodies from another artists. "Dazed and Confused" being the most obvious.
They didn't give credit until they were forced to.
There are only so many notes, and a finite number of combinations.
Might as well sue based on writing lyrics in English using the Latin alphabet
@@topherthe11th23 The basis of this case was only slightly stronger than suing over a song being in the same time signature
@@topherthe11th23 Your statement is a tautology: Plagarism is plagiarism. This was not plagiarism, according to the court which agreed with Rick’s assessment. The similarities between Taurus and Stairway to Heaven are not extensive enough that they meet the standard.
I used to think Led Zeppelin ripped off Spirit --until Rick explained the chromatic scale and provided similar examples.
Except that Rick did that entire video without mentioning a single word about Zeppelin's entrenched history of presenting other people's music as their own. Rick's tagline here might as well have been:
"If the riff doesn't fit, you must acquit."
You've wantonly ignored a mountain of other pertinent evidence in order to arrive at your conclusion.
@@dahawk8574 yeah, but that's not really the point is it?. If I write a song with a common chord progression like D Am C G, and somebody else hears that song and writes their own entirely different tune using those four chords, they have stolen nothing. You cannot own the fundamentals of making music. That's ridiculous.
@@dahawk8574 What the fuck are you talking about? The lawsuit is about STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN. Not about any other song by Led Zeppelin. Jimmy Page stole plenty-- but he did not steal Stairway to Heaven, and the lawsuit has nothing to do with anything else. The fact that LZ stole other songs is not evidence (certainly not a mountain of it) that this was stolen.
this tells me you're impressionable 😅😆😅😄😃
Did you really think that? really?
That's the same line cliché used in "Summer Rain" written by Jim Hendricks and was a hit for Johnny Rivers.
Do you need a musical lawyer?
Call rick beato!
"If you've been unjustly sued by the estate of Randy California, you may be entitled to significant compensation!"
9th March 2020. The day that Led Zep won their case against Michael Skidmore, who lets hope, has been landed with a mountain of legal costs for his greedy and cynical try on. I'd like to think that the Led Zep legal team played Rick's video for the jury, and that his excellent argument reinforced what was already obvious.
Michael Skidmark
Mick Skidmore would benefit nothing from the court case , as all the money goes to the estate which is a charity .
@@classicrockalbumreviews19 He would have benefited greatly actually. Royalties pay very well.
@@eroccha any money that would have been awarded would go to the Randy California trust . A charity which was set up to help young musicians in Ventura county California buy instruments and pay for tuition . Mick Skidmore gets zip
.
@@classicrockalbumreviews19 Again I will say royalties pay well. He would have gotten writing credits that would entitle him to royalties. He did not need to list royalties in this lawsuit for that he just needed to get credit. Royalties would have made him millions. Luckily this was not the same as Spirit and it was also a cliche that has been used in music for centuries. Taurus did not come up with it so no worries.
I've long been on ZEP's side of this debate and seen a dozen videos for each argument. This one is easily the most clear and concise, while also thorough explanation as to why the law suit is beyond silliness. Cheers, Rick. And YAY Led Zep!
Thank you for clearing up this controversy for me Rick. Hearing you explain it this way has definitely solved it for me.
I love this. Musicians hear these similarities constantly between all kinds of music. I mean, after all, there’s only 12 notes in Western music live long enough and listen to enough songs and you’ll hear the similarities. Not a ripoff at all...
Thank you Mr. Beato, for this clarification. I think it was very important that you took your arguement to the 1930s and 1940s to make your point. I appreciate the time you took to explain this situation.
Rick, I think what really solidifies your argument is the point about the 1-4-5 blues progression. For that matter, if it wasn’t for the 1-4-5 and especially the 1-6-4-5 progressions in so many songs of the 50s and early 60s, I doubt rock and roll would have meant very much.
"...and the Defense calls Rick Beato."
Brilliant deconstruct, thanks Prof!
Pete Townshend once said "everyone steals from everyone"
There's a difference between borrowing something and changing it enough to make it your own, to what Led have a history with. Led Zeppelin are known to take whole parts of melodies and lyrics.
Townsend also said he doesnt like ANYTHING LED ZEPPELIN has ever written. I didnt know what to think of that
@@DB-pi3fs To me The Who and Led Zeppelin are two different types of music. I can imagine someone liking The Who and dont liking Led and vice versa. I dont like Jimi Hendrix that much for an example.
The point is that this isn't stealing. So... no.
D B he also said he did not like Moon’s drumming always thought that was interesting.
absolutely,the only thing you can consider is the melody ,and it has to be the majority of exact intervals and rhythm,not 4 bass notes in a row
3/9/20
Led Zeppelin prevailed in a long-running copyright dispute after the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a jury verdict, saying that the rock band's 1971 megahit "Stairway to Heaven" did not illegally borrow from Spirit's 1968 track "Taurus."
@@DG-sf9ei What a terrible thing to say about someone's widow. I hope you never end up in the same postion.
@@DG-sf9ei "California drowned in 1997 at the age of 45 while rescuing his 12-year-old son Quinn from a rip current near the home of his mother, He managed to push Quinn (who survived) toward the shore.
kidnapping
@@DG-sf9ei California drowned in 1997 at the age of 45 while rescuing his 12-year-old son Quinn from a rip current near the home of his mother, He managed to push Quinn (who survived) toward the shore.
The Randy Craig Wolfe Trust was established after his death and, using royalties from California's recording contracts, financially supports the Randy California Project, an after-school music education program for underprivileged elementary school children in Ventura County. Now, lets talk about Page and the 14 year old girl he had kidnapped and had sex with.......Allegedly [not]
People picking off the carcass that is still the greatest rock and roll band of all time.
Glad artistic sensibility won.
I agree it was a BS lawsuit. I love that first Spirit album, it's a shame most people just know it from this controversy. To anyone reading this: give a listen if you haven't, it's a wonderful unique intersection of psychadelic rock, blues, and jazz that doesn't sound QUITE like any other album (...including Led Zeppelin ;) )
They won, yesterday....all my troubles seemed so far away.....oh wait...dammit, did I infringe?
😂😂😂
See you in court(lol)
I think it's always pertinent to mention that the suit was not brought about by "Taurus's" composer Randy California (Wolfe). He most likely understood Rock and Roll's tradition of the "cop." By the way you should all be checking out Spirit's first four albums, particularly their masterpiece "The 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus."
If you knew what yo were talking about, you'd know that he actually did want to sue them, and even talked about them stealing his song in the reissue album's liner notes. He even explained that they said they did not know of his song, but he knew they were lying because not only had the played shows with Zeppelin, but Zeppelin actually played their song Fresh Garbage at their live shows, which came from the same album. So it is kind of coincidental that for years Zeppelin played one of their songs at live shows, and the song came from the same album, but they claimed they had never heard the song. Not to mention, Zeppelin was successfully sued several times for stealing music, and paid settlements and had to give writing credits to multiple artist. They stole a song from Willie Dixon, and he sued and won, then they had the audacity to steal more music from him after he sued them, so he sued them again, and won again. He was paid, and also now has writing credits on multiple Zeppelin songs. Zeppelin was literally taking entire verses and claiming they wrote them. Zeppelin are the Carlos Mencia of Rock & Roll. They stole from everybody. Plant even famously said they thought it was okay to steal, because they never thought anybody would hear it. Zeppelin was garbage, and was basically just good at making other people's music sound great.
Ah, the beauty of the internet - 5 years ago I make a passing comment and today I get a reply from some nasty knowitall telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I have those reissue liner notes too and I know all about Led Zeppelin's plagiarism facts and fictions. I believe my statement still is still true - Randy California did not sue Led Zeppelin. My opinion that he understood the "cop" remains an opinion. As well as "12 Dreams" is amazing.
Now go have a happy day.@@chrisgullett4332
Rick you convinced me...but using your reasoning..How did George Harrison's My Sweet Lord lose to He's so Fine?
I really appreciate it when Rick makes the effort to outline melodies, even if his voice isn't quite Grammy material.
Grammy material?
I mean, I understand that your comment is from 2 years ago, but the fact that a Bad Bunny's album was nominated as best album of the year (that man CAN'T sing and CAN'T play an instrument), means that nowadays POPULARITY has more weight than TALENT for the Grammys! 🙄
Thank you, Rick... no one is the owner of the chord progressions
What about Steely Dan?? They use very unique chord progressions which, if copied by another artist, a judge just might consider that infringement. Common chord progressions, no infringement, unique ones - they open the door to the possibility of infringement.
ScubaStevee62 if that were the case, you imagine how many copyrihts would be infringed by jazz, fusion, funk, and latin music? Using the Hotel California chord progression would be infringed by many, and in turn by the Eagles. It is impossible to own chord progressions when the melody is not the same. Look at Coldplay and Joe Satriani.
100% accurate, Page also employed counterpoint in the progression, a technique common in English Baroque music.
The lawsuit never had a leg to stand on from the beginning!!
"The 9th Circuit Court of Apppeals upheld a jury verdict that found that "Stairway to Heaven" did not infringe on the 1968 song "Taurus" by the rock band Spirit. In doing so, the court overturned a controversial precedent the 9th Circuit has used in copyright cases." CNN, March 10, 2020.
when I heard about this whole lawsuit over "stealing a song"... I was expecting to hear a nearly identical into, melody, lyrics, chorus ect.. but I couldn't believe these guys actually think they are "owed" credit for stairway to heaven on the grounds that a few seconds sound similar...absolutely REDICULOUS!!
If you were to walk into a Courtroom and did this. The case would be done and over, baaaaam. This is so freaking good.
Right on! I've always known this, but you've laid it out clearly for all to hear. Your video should be used in court.
Does Time in a Bottle fit this? I always hear similarities with it too.
kzeor yeah, I believe it is a Dm lament.
Yes except in D minor
Good call
Great analogy. Very similar.
Hiya I actually like the Spirit one a lot . I think Zeppelin backed them , They have that fantasy mystical feel . I think it is similar ,but like you said it’s just the line cliche . I think this cliche is like a motif in Stairway For Heaven and keeps building on it and only briefly in Spirit before moving off to string . Stair Way To Heaven is a monster song too . It must have generated millions . Could you imagine the money in back payments they would have to pay the executives and would it then be free for them to use in advertisements. Scary . Such a beautiful song . It should be sacred and beyond this base attempt to cash in on it .
Correction : Zeppelin opened for Spirit for one single Concert-Denver, December 26th, 1968.
It was the one and only time the two bands ever shared a stage.
In case anyone didn’t know, I own the note F# and all of you have been infringing upon my rights for a very long time.
Henceforth I shall only write in F major with no modal borrowings or modulations that'd feature F#. Take that, random internet person who I'm sure is speaking the truth.
Ctrl-Alt-Del-U
Thank you for respecting my copyright. Feel free to also write in the key of C major, I hear that it’s easy to avoid the F# there
I’ll give you the “F” chord any day and the middle finger lol I am in the process of copyrighting Am7#+1
Haha
What bothers me most about this case is that isnt not Randy Wolfe himself doing the suing, he died some time ago. Correct me if Im wrong but Im fairly sure the similarities were pointed out to him and he really didnt give a damn. This is what happens when you have non musicians running the music business and owning copyrights to songs they didnt write.
Agreed
You’re so talented. So nice to listen to someone who knows what they are talking about.
Another similar one is Badfingers “Day After Day” from 1972 & Joe Jackson’s “Breaking us in Two” which came out in 82. VERY similar lines.
Led Zeppelin Wins Copyright Battle Over 'Stairway To Heaven'
The Supreme Court declined to hear whether Jimmy Page plagiarized an instrumental by 1960s band Spirit to create the riff for the classic 1971 rock ballad.
The copyright battle over the iconic riff to “Stairway to Heaven” will not lead to the steps of the Supreme Court.
The court on Monday declined to take up a long-running legal fight over whether Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page plagiarized “Taurus,” a 1968 instrumental by the 1960s band Spirit, to create the riff for the classic 1971 rock ballad.
The justices didn’t offer any explanation for declining to review the case, according to The Hollywood Reporter. Variety reports the decision ended six years of litigation.
The high court’s decision not to hear the case leaves in place a decision from March in which the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit upheld a jury verdict finding “Stairway” did not infringe on “Taurus,” according to Variety.
The suit was filed in 2014 by the estate of Spirit guitarist Randy Wolfe, who drowned in 1997.
Melody is the music. Those two songs do not have the same melody.
19th Century composers Carulli and Carcassi wrote classical guitar studies that have the same exact lick note for note. (At least the first bar)
boblob2003 and Jimmy Page has been a session musician before he hit it big...he had to know a little of everything to get work, and no doubt his sight reading lessons with Big Jim Sullivan would have included some Carcussi or Sor-Great sounding tunes that help your playing and reading chops !
The best explanation I've seen on this subject, so far.
Best take i've heard on this so far. Thanks for explaining Rick
Spirit goes down the stairs, Stairway goes up.
2019
this guy is a musical genius
now i'm thinking of that song, jim croce - time in a bottle.
made me think of "HELP I'm A ROCK!" by the Mothers of Invention/ZAPPA! LOL
lol John D.
That started playing in my head right after this video 👍🏼
Excellent *Rick* And exactly right.... I've used line cliches in my compositions... Most modern music is arguably based on other and much older forms of musical cliche, chord progressions, phrasings, cadences or whatever...
And musicians should be okay with that. I know I am.
What's the common adage ... ? 'Standing on the shoulders of giants.'
Can you see Beethoven or Bach sueing Jon Lord or Keith Emmerson, or even The Electric Light Orchestra?
People who whinge about copywrite are avaricious narcissists anyway...
*MANTRA - Definition - '' A sound vibration, that delivers the mind from illusion '*
Music transcends all language barriers and promotes pure harmony.
EXCELLENT JOB!!!!! I agree - this is unequivocally the best video/discussion i have seen on this - just excellent explaining the chromatic line - as a guitar player for over 30 years, I make all the same arguments you have in this video.
Again, great job.
thank you for this video.
Tell all the haters Rick, this is lawsuit is a joke, people only go after Led Zeppelin because they were a huge success.
I agree with you, people just can't stand Zeppelin's stature. t's almost like people want to reduce them so they can claim all these other crappy bands have more validity and that no one could really be as good as Zeppelin seems. I don't doubt that Zeppelin took different musical ideas from all over the place, but the truth is that these guys were a force of nature--if all you had to do to be Led Zeppelin was borrow some good ideas there would have been a lot more Led Zeppelins. They never produced anything that wasn't wholly reworked in their own image, even when an element is borrowed they transformed it into something totally unique--that's why no one before or since can imitate them!
@@mathewbrown9371...truer words have never been spoken!
I think the Spirit song sounds more like "Summer Rain," by Johnny Rivers than "Stairway."
Absolutely - I had the same thought.
I finally looked into this and found Rick explaining why it was not a rip off song...excellent as always Rick!!!
This is a great video and I agree with you completely. There’s a big difference between influence and copying. Modern music uses the same chord progressions over and over. It’s the melody that makes a song unique.
This is the best explination I've ever heard for this and the first time I've heard that term, thanks man.
Thanks for this, Rick. Another line cliché is Michelle.
You can't copyright and claim line cliches. Adam Neely made a great video on the subject:"Why the Ed Sheeran lawsuit makes no sense"
Thanks for adding some perspective to this lawsuit. PS: I call D, C and G. They're MINE.
Chris OConnor - I've always wished I could get a copyright on the letter 'e'. It's the most common letter in the English language and if I could get just one penny in royalties for every time someone spoke a word containing the letter 'e', I'd be rich beyond belief.
Nailed it ... all boils down to the fact that there's a limited number of chords and a limited number ways to put them together in a way that sounds good ... there's millions of songs being created ... it's inevitable that the most popular songs are going to share the common progressions that sound really great.
It’s a shame Led Zeppelin fans are not so understaning for Greta van Fleet…
Play the SPIRIT song and sing "Time in a Bottle" by Jim Croce
Not gonna lie: when I first heard the Spirit tune, I thought "wow, Zeppelin obviously stole that one, it sounds so very similar". Didn't know the line cliche was THAT common though, so thanks for clearing it up
Spirt opened for zeppelin around that time .smh
But there are more similarities than just the line cliche. Rick touched on them in his intro but didn't really mention them again.
@@rrockhard1...
It is a proven fact that Led Zeppelin opened for Spirit ONCE. It was December 26th, 1968, during Zep's very first concert in North America. Denver, to be precise.
Nitwits on TH-cam are always saying how they "toured together". Nope! ONE show only. More ignorant accusations from people who are too lazy or dull to do a little research. 🤣
@@MJEvermore853 lol no the open for zeppelin a few times 🤷♂️
@@MJEvermore853 i guess you didn't see when they was on the news saying that they opened for zeppelin smh the point is the songs are similar page siad they opened for them in theres a video on TH-cam my friend!
Hey, but the important thing is that it made lawyers rich.
This would never happened if Randy were still alive, I met Randy when he toured opening for the Righteous Brothers and Johnny Rivers - he was a good guy and when I told him that he, Carlos Santana, and Jimmy Page are the reasons I picked up a guitar he had a big smile. Randy was working on a project with ex Doors guitarist Robbie Krieger and he was so excited to get that completed - but as fate would have it, he died a hero saving his son in a riptide, RIP.
If Randy were still alive I don't think he would have necessarily gone so far as to sue them, but he did feel raw about it and thought they ripped them off: turnmeondeadman.com/randy-californias-thoughts-on-stairway-to-heaven/
I remember having the sheet music for Led Zeplin and reading advice from Jimmy Page.He said spend long times listening to tunes and copy your ass off.Cause that's what we do as players.Anyone else recall this quote?
@@ralphwhittemore5041 No.
And Page, ( and any other musician for that matter) wouldn't have been stupid enough to even think of such a thing. That's ridiculous.
Here’s one I just discovered. While up on my travel trailer doing some repairs, I was listening to Tony Joe White’s “They Caught the Devil and Put Him In Jail in Eudora, Arkansas”. Now that’s a mouthful. What struck me is how similar the song is to “Woodstock” by Joni Mitchell. White’s song was released in 1971 but i don’t know when he wrote it. Mitchell’s was written in 1969 when she, apparently, was stuck in a hotel room and couldn’t get to the festival. It’s not just a question of chord progressions. Some lines were lifted. White’s - “By the the time I got to Miss Johnson’s house, I knew there was something wrong.” Mitchell’s - “By the time we got to Woodstock, we were half a million strong…” or Mitchell’s “We are stardust we are broken, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden”. Or “billion year old carbon, caught in the devil’s bargain.” White’s - “He would not say where he got the money was he part of the devil’s bargain…” I like both artists but I am hoping one credited the other for inspiration.
When Rick started playing song intros with similar chord progressions, I immediately thought of Summer Rain by Johnny Rivers from 1968.
*50 years later*
Spirit: wait a minute, who is this led zeppelin
Super Funky Badass
No. Randy California died in the 90’s saving his kid from a riptide. He didn’t sue. The ESTATE, ever greedy relatives and such, sued.
We stand with Led Zeppelin. This lawsuit is a load of malarkey.
If I were on the jury, I would gladly award Randy (RIP) some bragging rights -- but not songwriting credit to his "estate".
Excellent job. I can't believe years of legal crap was over that. Spirit should have to pay Led Zeppelin's lawyer fees. Pathetic.
Excellent comparison. The differences between Spirit's "Taurus" and Led Zepplin's "Stairway to Heaven" are manifest. Line cliches have been around for centuries; it's just another musical tool.
Excellent analysis as always
3-10-2020 it's done, no issue with Led Zeppelin.
Every single popular musician has borrowed ideas from other songs. There would be no such thing as music if people were sued for every slightest similarity between songs
One of these days someone is going to sue someone for using the minor 3rd or flat 7 in a blues based song.
A good video to remind folks of legacy music and its influences through time.
Rick...you're right again, bands should not be sued for chord progressions unless it is a blatant rip off. People remember the melodies of the vocals....they don't remember the lyrics etc.
The riff in the Spirit song is actually more like the 2nd part of "Is There Anybody Out There?" by Pink Floyd. Also much closer to that harmonically. Maybe they should sue Pink Floyd too.
This is the comment i was looking for.
Sounds like Davey Graham to me. Ironically he did a song called Cry Me a River that sounds like Spirit may have been “influenced” by.
They should hire Rick for these lawsuits and put stupid juries in shame.
Esteban Aguayo what stupid jury? The original jury sided with Zep but an appeals court is ordering a new trial.
Davy graham used the chords first i believe anyway dk what the taurus members are smoking
Jimmy used to check him out as well as Bert Jansch, as a lot of guitarists did from that time. Let's also not forget John Renbourn.
Great discussion! I know all of these differences.. was always adamant because the're all beautiful line clichés! One can even find this movement in old French Accordian music etc..
Great to hear an articulate musician / musicologist expanding in this case. If I had actually chosen to go to college, I’d be a wealthy cat if I had a professor like this. Thanks Rick!!
H.M., filmworker / vinyl archivist / aficionado of significant compositions & arrangements