Can we make climbing gear stronger?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
- Thank you / e.vandownbytheriver for cryo-treating the climbing gear. It didn't make anything stronger by freezing it -300F but it also didn't seem to hurt it either.
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There are metallurgists working at these factories. In most cases, whatever you do, you will make it weaker, because the metal is already heat treated properly. Only if they had treated the material suboptimally, you would be able to improve on it. And on top of that, not much is happening with materials at low temperatures chemically, and if there is, it takes a long time. If anything you most likely will introduce stress fractures because of the uneven cooling. There are some steels that can be hardened cryogenically, and some of the high strength maraging steels might benefit from that procedure too, by further increasing the proportion of martensite to austenite, so it's not impossible to improve a your gear, just unlikely.
I like the idea of people not doing the process because of proper research however the razor says, cheap process is more likely to get good enough rather then treating and costing more hours of production.
This does treat hss steel bits by making the grains interlock in a similar tough way and the bits I've done this too last 3 to 10 times as long. But youtube search drill bits in liquid nitrogen by applied science
the cannel applied science has made a video on cryogenically treating HS steel drills. Very dramatic result. of course it might just make it more brittle
@@ayrendraganas8686 Right, hardness and strength are not the same thing, although they are related.
That's not entirely fair -- the metallurgists might not be treating the products because it increases cost with no real benefit, or for some other reason.
Yeah, the ultimate tensile strength isnt going to change much unless its normalized. Cool to see still.
I guess that if there was some cheap way to improve the strength of some standard gear, manufacturers would be already doing it to make it even more lightweight 😅
While cooling a steel component, different crystal structures can be obtained depending on the temperature-time curve.
Martensite (hard and brittle) can be obtained by rapidly reducing the component’s temperature. This is obtained by quenching the hot part in water or oil.
The martensitic reaction begins during cooling when the austenite reaches the martensite start temperature Ms. As the sample is quenched, an increasing percentage of the austenite transforms to martensite until the lower transformation temperature Mf is reached, at which point the transformation is completed.
For some high alloy steels, Mf is much lower than room temperature. Thus, a percentage of austenite remains in the crystal structure. To complete the martensitic reaction additional cooling is necessary. This is usually obtained using liquid nitrogen.
The transformation between these phases is instantaneous and not dependent upon diffusion.
I've never done cryo-treating, but for heat-treating, what's more important than the temperatures reached is the speed that the temperatures change. When a metal is hot, the atoms can move around each other easier, and how fast you cool it kinda determines when they get "locked in place." I'm honestly struggling to see how a cryo treatment could do much unless it was kept cold for at least minutes if not hours given how slow the atoms move at 77K. My only guess is that at lower temps, the atoms "fall into" lower energy lattice states that evens out the crystal structure and the energy when it warms up isn't enough to excite them out of those states.
Kinda sad it didn't work, I wanted an excuse to play with LN again.
As some others have mentioned, Applied Science did a video on this for high speed steel: th-cam.com/video/hAxi5YXTjEk/w-d-xo.html
He slowly cooled it and held it at 77K for about 30hrs. He shows a diagram showing the different structures, and shows how the grain lines disappear afterwards, but doesn't really explain the physics. I feel extremely nerd-sniped right now.
I really appreciate the mix of deep dive content (rope swing series, Bobby's rebolting stuff, etc) and quick short videos like these. Great work, Ryan! You've come a long way!
Bro, I remember wanting to get into rock climbing and found your channel, and it had just started.
The tower was an idea, but you had yet to tell us about it. Ypu are growing, and I hope you quite the painting job.
Also I remember something to the nature of having to move? I hope that all went well.
Cheers brother.
cryogenic heat treat does improve the toughness but not the overall strength. the cryogenic heat treat does move the yield point (the point on a stress strain curve where a piece will not return to its original shape) and that is why you could open the cryoed one that was taken to 31 kn but not the other one. applied science did a video on how cryo heat treating works and he does a much better job of explaining it because he has a better understanding then I do.
As a couple of people have mentioned. Cryo treating takes time, it needs to be kept cold for days to have the desired effect.
I use climbing gear for "other than climbing" uses, like as pullies and other rope work so i would LOVE stronger
working with cryogenics we have plastic wires. most plastic used for wires have problems if you cool it down too fast or unevenly since they become shorter and brittle, but they can survive and the process is reversable if the cooling down is even.
Let's cryo-treat the dyneema next! lol I didn't expect that.
Ask me how surprised I am that the professional metallurgists working in climbing gear factories have already tempered these metals to whatever state is optimal.
Also: My amateur understanding is that ONLY cooling something from room temperature isn't really going to change the crystal structure. You really only change the crystal structure by significantly heating and THEN cooling metal, because metal is a solid, and not much happens inside a solid metal at room temperature and below.
I very occasionally use a biner that is "far too strong" because in some circumstances I want a steel biner (like Petzl Oxan, triple action 38, 16, 15 KillerNewtonts) that would still be super good enough even if cross loaded or bent over an edge. Not needed very often, but an example is the biner for a top rope (belaying from below) or in some difficult industrial situation. That sort of kit isn't very relevant for normal climbing though.
This is why I like my CAMP steel triple lockers. MBS is super good enough even cross loaded or open
The question becomes...How much does the equipment degrade after it has been used a few times? What happens to the slings after they have picked up some dust and been used and stored and maybe gotten wet once or twice? What happens to the biners after they have been used and scuffed and scratched (but never taken a significant fall) or maybe their wire gate has bent a bit, or one of the pins has slid out of alignment? In other words...How durable is it? What do we need to worry about before we put black tape on our biners?
That is what half the videos on this channel are about. Lots of old used gear. The tldr as far as I’ve seen them is soft goods anywhere down to 50% and hard goods more usually down 80-90, if at all.
(Assuming it passes visual inspection and doesn’t trigger your “Jesus this stuff is fucked up” sensor)
To be open for alternative solutions, my recommendation is to bury equipment at fullmoon in the backyard for at least 3 nights and test it then. Alternatively a homeopathic treatment could be usefull, too 😂
Biodynamic climbing!
If it’s forged modifying it just adds breaks in the grain structure which can lead to fatigue.
Hello! This is certainly the wrong place to ask, but I recently wanted to pick up soft shackles for a non-climbing related project. Wanting to support you, I wanted to get them from your store. Unfortunately, when looking around your store I only see Dyneema slings and daisy chains. Are they simply not available, or are they hidden away somewhere?
I’d really love to see the integration of force vs distance so we can see the total energy absorption before breaking. I wonder if the treated carabiners might be more brittle and absorb less energy prior to breaking
I'd say, even if you know what you're doing, never fuck with safety gear.
I design IR telescope instruments that run at-280C. This is a common treatment to destress parts to make optic alignment faster.
reminds me of that time you were doing Amazon gear and saying that stuff may have broken low because it missed a heat treatment step. I wouldn't be surprised if repeating an important process on good-quality gear makes little difference, but doing the process on lowest-bidder stuff might have a much more significant effect.
The only time a material can Cryo harden is when it’s cryohardenable. If the material you are using is heat treated, there is a reason. Or maybe they’re already cryohardend as for the slings it seems like it damaged the stitching
I wonder with the webbing and stitching, if humidity at the time they were frozen played any impact in the integrity of the stitching being degraded. More specifically, let's say there was 60% humidity level, and that humidity was inside the stitching and webbing, then as temperatures dropped the humidity would crystallize and expand more than the nylon, causing micro abrasions. I don't think it's anything to be worried about, but I think it effectively would age the material.
Can we get a video about wear! Caribabns wear and what to look out for?
I've never seen a technora soft shackle. I'm guessing the internal abrasion makes it weaker than amsteel. That material would be great for a chainsaw lanyard that can take exhaust heat. Just insert a bungee in the core.
40kN is a huge amount. That's two teslas and a fat guy
"Can we make climbing gear stronger?"
without watching the video: yes, but you will make it heavier and it's not worth it.
oh god and it's about cryo treating. Don't.
For what it's worth I use guitar strings that are treated by alternating super high temp and super low temp in cycles
Glad to know that when I fly to mars to climb, the climbing gear does not need to travel in a temperature controlled section of my rocket 👍
Do you know what material that pin was made of? If that was the failure point then all that matters is if the cryo treatment affects the pin, not the carabiner itself.
As far as I know cryogenic treatment of hardened steel makes the martensite reaction go to the physical limit. Simply: you get more effects of the gardening. I guess here it doesn't make sense since you don't want carabiniers to be brittle.
This is often used to treat metalworking tools, it doesn't make them noticeably more brittle, but the increased hardness makes HSS drills last much longer before edge failure.
@@wyattroncin941Yup. Aftermarket car parts too. Makes them also more immune to fatigueing and cracking on the surface
@hownot2 The thing is that cryogenic treatments don’t do this to all things.
When you make knives you know there are only certain formulations of steels, particularly super cutlery steels, that benefit from cryo treatment.
I think D2 tool steel is another formulation that benefits from it. Not stainless though.
I would imagine the same is true for aluminum alloys.
Are you sure the carabiners tested are of the correct type of aluminum that does benefit from cryogenic treatment? Do manufacturers give us the spec on the chemical makeup of the materials our carabiners are made out of?
Do you made a Video about old dyneema Equipment, already? Maybe 10 to 20 years old.... Good luck testing it
To the metal, room temperature is already really cold. Making it colder doesn't do a lot in almost all cases. Like some of the experts on here have said. Like others have said, if there was a cheap and easy way to make it stronger the manufacturers would be doing it and keeping the finish looking nice.
Can you test whether stomach acid from a post off width vomit session degrades soft goods like kernmantle ropes, nylon webbing and dyneema slings
How about WPC treatments?
I wonder what the breaking force of dog leashes are.
We do it with our axles and Axle housings so that we can beat on our trucks harder
Stronger gate hinge pins might help the steel biners.... they seemed to go right there....
@@kiereluurs1243 thanks for that.
Cryp treatment does not make metal "stronger" it is a heat treatment that can help with surface hardness, aka wear resistance. So to check it maybe an abrasion test?
It relives the internal stress????
I'm betting zero difference, but let's watch!
Stronger isn't necessary. More durable is more attractive to me.
I wonder if a lightweight rubberized coating, similar to truck bed liner, would help absorb impacts a little and mitigate micro fractures a little? That would be interesting... 🤔
Obligatory algorithm boost 👍👍
isn't that for knives?
Interesting.
yes, they can make it stronger by using better pins.
Or lets just use rings with no weak locks when possible
We need carbon fiber carabiners
Is extreme gear still a legit site?
Shotpeening might be worth a try. It can make springs stronger, it might aso work with carabiners.
Shotoeening workhardens the surface, shouldn’t affected breaking strength much. And it probably makes it easier to get fatigue cracks.
🙂
There might be a benefit cooling them ridiculous fast in liquid nitrogen after heat treatment? 🤷🏼♂️
But that should be done during manufacturing.
What might be a cool idea to test, is shotpeening or rotorpeening carabiners and then put them to the test. It should make the skin more resistant to cracking, as that is where cracks initially form and then rupture into just not super good enough…
👏👏
Stronger gear.... titanium carabiners anyone??
I mean you’d have to make the rope stronger. That’s almost always the weakest link.
In case you wanted to climb in space ?
Using duct tape on carabiners is the only way to make them stronger. So when they crack the tape holds them together. Duh!
*Disclaimer*
please don't actually do that haha
“If you weigh 80-100kg”… yeah, but what if you weigh 200kg?
From my understanding (which I am NOT a scientist) bring something down to extremely low temperatures can temporarily change a crystalline structure on malleable objects. from metals need to be in that malleable state to be affected. If nothing else, when they are that cold, they become more brittle, but return to normal upon going back to room temperature.
So testing the carabiners like this is useless (as your results show) whereas with the soft shackles, that would be a much better test since they can actually be affected long term (returning to room temp) where the carabiners would not be affected.
Applied science has a video on this, cryogenic treatement. Basically its about expanding the range of temperature tempering happens over as far as i understand it, but it is actually doing something after the metal returns to room temp.
@@ravener96 Oh cool! :D I haven't actually done much research into this (I'm more into other types of sciences and computer sciences) though knowing how metals react to different temps does actually come handy
@@dethsproductions its only really relevant with steel i think, at least in the way shown in his video, since it just increases the amount of martensite. you could get the same result by just ajusting the original heat treat probbably.
I would call that debunked.
It's all strong enough, I have and you can get 70kn carabiniers nobody is going to be carting them around climbing.
They do this treatment on rifle barrels. I'd say not brittle.
You need a Peter Brock energy polariser……
Don't get high on your own supply😂. Don't know if you're going to make money running a store next to slacksnap.
🎉🎉🎉
try it with holy water, it's incredible 😇
Woo! The first time I'm among the first people to see your video!
YES. Nobody needs to save weight on this kind of shit.
Aluminum? No, with holes? Nope. Fancy shapes and gates? Noope.
Its only holding your life.
I guess if you are hiking a long way to your climb, then weight quickly becomes a big issue..... I regret taking my steel carabiners sometimes while walking to a cliff near us.... :)