Many professional players do "Table Tennis theory" sessions where they sit around and talk about what to do in different situations during a match. That helps them be mentally prepared for anything. This kind of situation would definitely come up.
The high toss in itself is probably one of the MOST legal ways to serve. I don't use it but only because I'm not great in getting a truely vertical toss. I tend to toss the ball about 12 inches up from my open palm. If it is not exactly veritcal I tend to err on the ball drifting slightly backwards during the toss - mainly to keep it from not crossing the end line of the table. I do not throw it backwards like some do (I don't do it intentionally - my intention is vertical). I have seen what starts out to be a flat open palm serve touched by a single finger at the point of the release - that probably does impart some spin but usally not something that causes a real issue with reading the ball.
The umpire was right. From the video it's clear that the ball does not go straight up and down and that's because of the spin on the ball. Putting a small amount of spin is fine, but if you put enough to create a magnus effect then it's clearly against the rules.
Unfortunately, some of the calculations presented are not accurate, because the air resistance is not negligible. It gets more and more influential (precisely, in quadratic manner) the higher the toss, therefore, the velocity is. There is a moment, when the air resistance force equals the weight, and the ball cannot accelerate further (so called 'terminal velocity').
@@edwardwilloughby3783 still: it's a pedantic point and totally unrelevant to the topic of this video. Players throw the ball so high for velocity and try to avoid any spin, because that makes the curve more predictable. Air resistance is irrelevant for the curve.
@@leonawroth2516 It’s not irrelevant to the comment I actually replied to. But anyway since you want to argue, air resistance is definitely not irrelevant for the curve because that’s literally what makes the ball curve in the air in the first place lmaoo
In most countries high toss serves are legal, but in my country you will face up to 2 years in prison. The main problem is that you can hit the ceiling causing the whole building to collapse and kill everyone. Very dangerous. If you play outdoors, it's even more dangerous as you can hit an airplane killing everyone on board. If Ma Long played against me, he would be arrested immediately after his very first serve, get 5 years of jail time (3 years extra for imparting spin) and I would win by default.
Throwing the ball high is not the problem as it goes straight up and down. The biggest problem is getting some part of your body between you and the opponent and throwing the ball in a large arc.
I would note that: it may be actually beneficial to add a spin to the ball for high tossed serves. Yes, the spin will change the ball's trajectory because of the magnus effect (the same principle that lies behind the curve of the loop), but the change is stable and predictable, and the angular momentum adds another layer of stability, the same reason that it is easier to juggle a football by spinning it. At low spin and high speed, however, the trajectory change is less predictable with the air turbulence. For pro players who practice the same tossing over and over again, it may be beneficial to add spin to the ball, but I don't think this will add significantly more spin to the serve itself.
@KySpace Adding spin to your toss is illegal. Sometimes it can’t be helped, however if its done intentionally its a foul. Also adding spin to the ball does significantly imcrease the spin on the ball and would make some serves (underspin) really a pain to return. Also tosses are supposed to be straight up however this is also hard to judge so people will also toss in an angle just to get more spin on the ball. PS I haven’t watched the video yet so I may repeating information
I can see why the umpire calls these serves faults, but it's so ridiculous when other top players serve way worse than him and don't get called out. As a unofficial umpire who judges inbetween matches I hate people going for illegal serves. One time I had someone who didn't even throw the ball up, he threw it into his bat and did a drive-like serve on the line. I was so confused that I even had to ask if that was his serve or not yet the umpire called it correct and a point for my opponent
Em Rat, the umpire said he “imparted spin”, not impacted. There is a big difference. He is saying that his hand made the ball spin as it came off of his fingers. If you look closely, the umpire is correct. I don’t think Ma intentionally tried to do this, as it is inevitable to curl your hand a bit when you are tossing it this high.
Ma Long turns his hand sideways when tossing the ball, which gives spin to it, violating rule rule 2.6.2. However, this fault is not in the handbook for match officials nor is it in the umpire's training videos. It would be good for the Umpires and Referees Committee to add this fault to the handbook or just don't call it at all. Before watching this call I would have never thought about calling on that service. If most umpires are not trained to call that fault (it's not in the HMO nor in the videos), it's better to not call it, because the ones calling it would be a small minority, and officiating should be standarized. We should only call faults that are explained in the handbook/videos (and obvious faults). If URC wants us to call that fault, they should add it to the HMO.
Sir, the Chinese translation for subtitle is wrong. It should be “字幕可用” the translation in the original video means the second title(aka the “subtitle” in word processor)
You are right and wrong...there is no way to no impart spin to a high toss, but if the amount of the spin is much more than the normal, then it should be questioned.
Throwing the ball really high, with an open palm, can not produce any significant spin on the ball because the ball is really light and I find it quite difficult to induce spin with an open palm. Of course, the ball will rotate but nothing like the football ball. Somebody compared it with the kick in football game. I think it's not the same because in table tennis you're missing that kick, you don;t hit the ball when you toss it high, the ball sits in your palm. And if you choose to toss the ball really high, you better make sure it goes up in a straight line as possible. Otherwise, the higher it goes, the farther from you it will fall back, and that's a fault. It happened to me to throw the ball high and get spin on it but it was accidentally and I ended up by screwing my serve. So I think the guy is correct: the spin is next to nothing.
3:37 diagram is completely wrong I am sorry to say. Ball with that spin would move in the opposite direction when falling, also the trajectory would be affected more on the upwards motion since there would be more spin on the ball (the ball loses some spin over the course of the throw due to drag).
If it were impossible to add significant amount of spin to the ball then no such rule would've been added. You may toss in Samsonov's style - no any questions then. That particular toss from Ma wasn't absolutely clean so the umpire was given a room for interpretation.
The rule was introduced decades ago during a period of "finger spin" serves where players would spin the ball with their fingers while throwing it onto their bats making it almost impossible to tell what kind of spin was imparted. The rule had nothing to do with high toss serves.
You didn't mention the terminal velocity of the ball. Since the ball is so light the terminal velocity is low so there is no advantage to throwing it up beyond the height which it will reach terminal velocity. Second, it is almost impossible to throw a ball without some type of spin. Baseball pitchers throw a knuckle ball with very little spin which will make it travel randomly which is very hard to hit. So in TT it would make the server hit his own knuckle ball if there was no spin. Umpires need to have better training to understand the rules and enforce the ones that are truly illegal.
If you try and experiment, tossing the ball relatively high will induce an unstable falling trajectory. The trick to make it predictable and stable is to add a very light (almost none) spin to the ball when tossing. Of course this is illegal according to the regulations, but that's what pro players do.
Many players serve much worse than Ma Long. Why TT male umpires are so biased ? If they want to be fair and strict, it's good, but they need to do the same to every players. You can't, and it's unethical, if you destroy a particular player's game just because you feel so low and arrogant.
You don t understand even you why the empire call fault when is trowing :))))) is not about the heigh throw, close the chanel if you don t know the rules
Where did he say that the call of the umpire has something to do with the height? He just tried to prove that the umpire wrong with an argument concerning the height of the throw.
The interpretation of service rules is a serious problem in pro table tennis and rigid enforcement really kills the flow of the game and ends up with ridiculous faults. When you do a high toss serve every now and then you may impart a tiny amount of spin on the toss. As you say it's next to nothing, it's not going to help the serve in any way and it's more likely to screw up your serve. The ball going behind your head when you toss the ball...quite frankly who cares. The purpose of the rule about not concealing the ball is so players can see the contact between the bat and the ball. No one cares if it goes behind your head (that's a problem with the rules really). Another topic is the toss not being 100% vertical. There's a theory that throwing the ball at a slight angle helps impart more spin on the serve. Yeh...not really and faults for non vertical tosses also make the game ridiculous. The majority of serves involve tosses that are not 100% vertical. The service rules really need a rethink.
Regardless of the reason, he is putting additional spin on the ball. Yes, he is trying to increase the velocity, but the additional spin, does affect the ball. The rules need to change , as it is not the umpires responsibility to abide by the laws of physics, but rather see to if, that the rules are followed.
Ma Long has a good behaviour👍👍, he was not angry when called "let" or "fault" by the ridiculous umpire!
G.O.A.T
Many professional players do "Table Tennis theory" sessions where they sit around and talk about what to do in different situations during a match. That helps them be mentally prepared for anything. This kind of situation would definitely come up.
There are rules, just applying it is the way it should always be (at least for the first fault, hiding the ball)
The high toss in itself is probably one of the MOST legal ways to serve. I don't use it but only because I'm not great in getting a truely vertical toss. I tend to toss the ball about 12 inches up from my open palm. If it is not exactly veritcal I tend to err on the ball drifting slightly backwards during the toss - mainly to keep it from not crossing the end line of the table. I do not throw it backwards like some do (I don't do it intentionally - my intention is vertical). I have seen what starts out to be a flat open palm serve touched by a single finger at the point of the release - that probably does impart some spin but usally not something that causes a real issue with reading the ball.
The umpire was right. From the video it's clear that the ball does not go straight up and down and that's because of the spin on the ball. Putting a small amount of spin is fine, but if you put enough to create a magnus effect then it's clearly against the rules.
Unfortunately, some of the calculations presented are not accurate, because the air resistance is not negligible. It gets more and more influential (precisely, in quadratic manner) the higher the toss, therefore, the velocity is. There is a moment, when the air resistance force equals the weight, and the ball cannot accelerate further (so called 'terminal velocity').
Yeah, but I think it won’t reach terminal velocity here, at least not a height human can throw anyways
@@oscarwong4201 It could do actually since the ball is very light and not very aerodynamic.
@@edwardwilloughby3783 still: it's a pedantic point and totally unrelevant to the topic of this video. Players throw the ball so high for velocity and try to avoid any spin, because that makes the curve more predictable. Air resistance is irrelevant for the curve.
@@leonawroth2516 It’s not irrelevant to the comment I actually replied to. But anyway since you want to argue, air resistance is definitely not irrelevant for the curve because that’s literally what makes the ball curve in the air in the first place lmaoo
Terminal velocity for a tabel tennis ball is at 9,5m/s. You must throw it about 12 to 13 meters to reach that velocity.
In most countries high toss serves are legal, but in my country you will face up to 2 years in prison. The main problem is that you can hit the ceiling causing the whole building to collapse and kill everyone. Very dangerous. If you play outdoors, it's even more dangerous as you can hit an airplane killing everyone on board. If Ma Long played against me, he would be arrested immediately after his very first serve, get 5 years of jail time (3 years extra for imparting spin) and I would win by default.
I love this comment! 8>D
Throwing the ball high is not the problem as it goes straight up and down. The biggest problem is getting some part of your body between you and the opponent and throwing the ball in a large arc.
I think Ma did impart a bit of spin as he tossed the ball. It is why you are supposed to throw from a flat palm.
I would note that: it may be actually beneficial to add a spin to the ball for high tossed serves. Yes, the spin will change the ball's trajectory because of the magnus effect (the same principle that lies behind the curve of the loop), but the change is stable and predictable, and the angular momentum adds another layer of stability, the same reason that it is easier to juggle a football by spinning it. At low spin and high speed, however, the trajectory change is less predictable with the air turbulence. For pro players who practice the same tossing over and over again, it may be beneficial to add spin to the ball, but I don't think this will add significantly more spin to the serve itself.
@KySpace Adding spin to your toss is illegal. Sometimes it can’t be helped, however if its done intentionally its a foul. Also adding spin to the ball does significantly imcrease the spin on the ball and would make some serves (underspin) really a pain to return. Also tosses are supposed to be straight up however this is also hard to judge so people will also toss in an angle just to get more spin on the ball. PS I haven’t watched the video yet so I may repeating information
I can see why the umpire calls these serves faults, but it's so ridiculous when other top players serve way worse than him and don't get called out. As a unofficial umpire who judges inbetween matches I hate people going for illegal serves. One time I had someone who didn't even throw the ball up, he threw it into his bat and did a drive-like serve on the line. I was so confused that I even had to ask if that was his serve or not yet the umpire called it correct and a point for my opponent
Em Rat, the umpire said he “imparted spin”, not impacted. There is a big difference. He is saying that his hand made the ball spin as it came off of his fingers. If you look closely, the umpire is correct. I don’t think Ma intentionally tried to do this, as it is inevitable to curl your hand a bit when you are tossing it this high.
thank you very much.
Yes sir. I love your videos.
The point is that no table tennis player in the right mind would want to “impart” spin while tossing the ball up .
2:46 Ma Long seemed to be dissatisfied with the umpire
Ma Long turns his hand sideways when tossing the ball, which gives spin to it, violating rule rule 2.6.2. However, this fault is not in the handbook for match officials nor is it in the umpire's training videos. It would be good for the Umpires and Referees Committee to add this fault to the handbook or just don't call it at all. Before watching this call I would have never thought about calling on that service. If most umpires are not trained to call that fault (it's not in the HMO nor in the videos), it's better to not call it, because the ones calling it would be a small minority, and officiating should be standarized. We should only call faults that are explained in the handbook/videos (and obvious faults). If URC wants us to call that fault, they should add it to the HMO.
Sir, the Chinese translation for subtitle is wrong. It should be “字幕可用” the translation in the original video means the second title(aka the “subtitle” in word processor)
oh. thank you very much. i will fix it soon
@@pingsunday you are welcome!
You are right and wrong...there is no way to no impart spin to a high toss, but if the amount of the spin is much more than the normal, then it should be questioned.
It would be right if there was no air resistance, that means the force against velocity!
Throwing the ball really high, with an open palm, can not produce any significant spin on the ball because the ball is really light and I find it quite difficult to induce spin with an open palm. Of course, the ball will rotate but nothing like the football ball. Somebody compared it with the kick in football game. I think it's not the same because in table tennis you're missing that kick, you don;t hit the ball when you toss it high, the ball sits in your palm. And if you choose to toss the ball really high, you better make sure it goes up in a straight line as possible. Otherwise, the higher it goes, the farther from you it will fall back, and that's a fault. It happened to me to throw the ball high and get spin on it but it was accidentally and I ended up by screwing my serve. So I think the guy is correct: the spin is next to nothing.
3:37 diagram is completely wrong I am sorry to say. Ball with that spin would move in the opposite direction when falling, also the trajectory would be affected more on the upwards motion since there would be more spin on the ball (the ball loses some spin over the course of the throw due to drag).
Yup
If it were impossible to add significant amount of spin to the ball then no such rule would've been added. You may toss in Samsonov's style - no any questions then. That particular toss from Ma wasn't absolutely clean so the umpire was given a room for interpretation.
The rule was introduced decades ago during a period of "finger spin" serves where players would spin the ball with their fingers while throwing it onto their bats making it almost impossible to tell what kind of spin was imparted. The rule had nothing to do with high toss serves.
@@andrewcavanagh3946 Ok. Sounds reasonable.
The umpire never see jun mizutani serve i think, lol
Вот почему в судьи нужно брать бывших про игроков, тех кто активно играет в теннис и прочих, а не учёных
thanks for such video....
You didn't mention the terminal velocity of the ball. Since the ball is so light the terminal velocity is low so there is no advantage to throwing it up beyond the height which it will reach terminal velocity.
Second, it is almost impossible to throw a ball without some type of spin. Baseball pitchers throw a knuckle ball with very little spin which will make it travel randomly which is very hard to hit. So in TT it would make the server hit his own knuckle ball if there was no spin.
Umpires need to have better training to understand the rules and enforce the ones that are truly illegal.
Great point. Umpire training really needs to focus more on the spirit of the rules and why the specific rules were introduced.
Its meters not mét
like 2 syllables
tung bóng cao đối phương khó đoán điểm rơi và thời điểm giao bóng
900 cm is 9 meters?
TT is never a fair game.
If you try and experiment, tossing the ball relatively high will induce an unstable falling trajectory. The trick to make it predictable and stable is to add a very light (almost none) spin to the ball when tossing.
Of course this is illegal according to the regulations, but that's what pro players do.
High toss is fine...
Глупость ! Выше 2,5 метров бросай хоть 100 метров вверх , быстрее мяч падать не будет !!! Включается эффект парашюта !!! Физику надо учить !
Many players serve much worse than Ma Long. Why TT male umpires are so biased ? If they want to be fair and strict, it's good, but they need to do the same to every players.
You can't, and it's unethical, if you destroy a particular player's game just because you feel so low and arrogant.
You don t understand even you why the empire call fault when is trowing :))))) is not about the heigh throw, close the chanel if you don t know the rules
Where did he say that the call of the umpire has something to do with the height? He just tried to prove that the umpire wrong with an argument concerning the height of the throw.
lmao whatever ma long or a chinese sports player does, the judge just make a rule saying it is illegal.
umpires from Europe are very strict to Asia players.
Well that's called racist
The interpretation of service rules is a serious problem in pro table tennis and rigid enforcement really kills the flow of the game and ends up with ridiculous faults. When you do a high toss serve every now and then you may impart a tiny amount of spin on the toss. As you say it's next to nothing, it's not going to help the serve in any way and it's more likely to screw up your serve.
The ball going behind your head when you toss the ball...quite frankly who cares. The purpose of the rule about not concealing the ball is so players can see the contact between the bat and the ball. No one cares if it goes behind your head (that's a problem with the rules really).
Another topic is the toss not being 100% vertical. There's a theory that throwing the ball at a slight angle helps impart more spin on the serve. Yeh...not really and faults for non vertical tosses also make the game ridiculous. The majority of serves involve tosses that are not 100% vertical.
The service rules really need a rethink.
Regardless of the reason, he is putting additional spin on the ball. Yes, he is trying to increase the velocity, but the additional spin, does affect the ball. The rules need to change , as it is not the umpires responsibility to abide by the laws of physics, but rather see to if, that the rules are followed.