Is VHS Coming Back?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- I can't believe I'm saying this but... VHS IS BACK BABY! The humble video cassette seems to be making a comeback of sorts in 2024! New editions of classic titles are seeing release on the format, but why now? Is this the first step of something bigger, or has this revival been coming for a while...?
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Keep in mind: Limited Edition Run, hence the high price tag. However, in this day and age of 'You'll own nothing and be happy,' I love seeing physical media become more prevalent. For those who would complain about the cost of a limited edition VHS movie, bear in mind that: A. Once paid for, you own it for life; B. You’re paying for the new VHS tape experience; and C. If you have a working/functional VCR, then you can afford newly distributed VHS tapes.
Vote with your wallet. Do you want big corporations serving you movies online that they can easily take away from paying customers, or would you rather hold your purchase in your own hands, knowing that nobody can take that away from you, period? Use this moment to show the industry how sick and tired we are of streaming services taking stuff away from us!
Bring them all back, vinyl, cassetes, vhs players, vhs tapes, video stores, fisical midia for people to buy, bring all back big time, bring the good times, the real joy in our lives back, i know i must be one in the crowd on this one but, i mean every word from the bottom of my heart and my soul, i may be alone on this, so be it, but anyway this turns out i stand by my words 1000 per cent, 80's, 90's fisical midia THEY LIVE FOREVER
Agree 100% ❤
They never died to be truthful. My Auntie still has her VHS player.
Just something to note: If you're going out to buy VHS and you've dragged mum and dad's old VHS machine down from the loft....
Get the machine overhauled (or do it yourself, there's loads of stuff on TH-cam) as remember VHS machines are complicated mechanical devices full of pulleys, belts and rubber parts that can seize in storage.
Otherwise there's a good chance you'll just damage the tape the first time you hit play, or end up with a tape wedged firmly inside a machine and without knowledge you'll probably damage the cassette trying to retrieve it.
I love the way people are paying £30 quid for vinyl, cassettes and VHS that charity shops refused to take for free a decade ago. Seriously, pick up CDs and DVDs for a quid each and wait for 2035 when the hipsters cotton on.
I never stopped buying CDs. never will. I got hundreds of records (a lot handed down to me as well from older family) cassettes etc. but CDs always my prefer choice of sound and portability. Nothing against the others. I bought records in the late 90's when no one really was (by me) and resold albums like Pearl Jam Binaural I paid 20 bucks for in 2000 for close to 1000 dollars a few years ago. Crazy. I got first pressing of Alice In Chains Facelift for 3 dollars in 1999 and now I've seen it USED on ebay for 700 dollars. I pretty much invested into records in the late 90's in order to pay off loans.
I won't get rid of all the Iron Maiden albums my Uncle gave me. I got so many record singles of the 80's metal thanks to him.,
I still but blu rays, they’re never going to be pulled from streaming.
Melenials were little kids when those things were around, so this their nostalgic link to the past, I'm a genx so I was in my 20s when they were around so I'm done with them but to each thier own...
Back in the 1980’s I owned a copie of weird a’s u h f on v h s cassette but sadly it got eaten up bymy parents old v c r so when I moved from Blaine my childhoood home to coonrapids I had to to wait until November 2011 for shout factory to release u h f on blu-ray that same year they released the complete al on dvd it’s weird al’s almost true life story with 8 of his music videos wrapped around it
This is the smart feller in here.
Wow. This is mental. While I do agree that this may not be a full-scale revival (unless we get surprised), I do still have a soft-spot for VHS despite how beautiful 4K/HD media can look.
I knew VHS would make a comeback when that time came. In all honesty, if I saw a VHS copy of "Mad Max Fury Road", I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
Vice Press is an art print company that has started doing VHSs recently. They aren’t the only company doing limited VHS releases of movies, A24 did a limited edition VHS release of Gasper Noé’s film ‘Climax’ a few years back and the Batman parody film ‘The People’s Joker’ recently had a VHS release along side it’s DVD and Blu-ray release in the US.
VCRs are a regular donation item at the charity shop I volunteer at. Despite them being 20-30 years old, most do still work (though they do sometimes need some persuasion in getting the transport moving again after being sat around unused for over a decade). The main time-consuming bit is testing the record function as the vast majority only have an analogue tuner, so I have to wire up a DVD player to them as a video source. I generally price them up at £10-15 - unless it's a rare model or an SVHS or DVD/VHS Combi, then it goes off to the eBay store. We even sold an old basic Toshiba model just yesterday.
I bought my first VHS recorder in the late '80s. It was top of the line, at the time. It could record and play back VHS and SVHS tapes. It was also in stereo. I think it may have been a twin head, too. The back connections were fancy, too. It had the push and twist connections that were designed for a better signal. I had to buy special cables to enable me to connect it to the TV.
Main point of failure is the rubber drive band, find a replacement for that and you could have one working for another 15 - 35 years
Its cool to see this, but it would make more sense to bring back D-Theatre VHS tapes. They were capable of outputting digital video at 1080i. A newer, updated version of this format capable of 4k output would be amazing!
Unfortunately, this with near certainty will never, ever happen.
My thought is, putting aside the technical challenges, if you've got 4K on a VHS tape what's the point of it? All you then have is a digital file on an awkward plastic box?
@robustreviews the movie itself would be digitally encoded on the tape itself, just like D-Theatre tapes. The one big issue is that they would have to manufacture new players that not only output 4K, but also accept newer codecs like h.265 etc. D-Theatre tapes used more tape than regular VHS, as they mainly used MPEG-2 encoding and had to be played at a higher speed, so 4K D-Theatre tapes would absolutely require a newer codec.
@@gamingcrazy7013 Indeed, trust me, I'm aware of this surrounded by around 100 video machines of everything from Sony CV to Digital Betacam in my office.
It's fun to speculate, but it's never going to happen.
The main issue is that hardly anyone would have a means of playing them. Even SVHS would have a limited market as few people bought those machines.
Or a 8k format ?
Scart leads at the ready ! After watching your post, I got my old Panasonic Video recorder out and tried it to see if it still works. Has been in its original box for the past 10 years or so, up in the loft. And, to my delight, it plays and records as good as it ever did ! Also, got 3 brand new still in their wrappers Scotch 3 hour tapes to use ! So ... I'll be watching patiently. First video movie I ever watched was Sly Stallone as Rambo in the movie "First Blood" ..... Happy Days ! 👏😉👍
Was going to dispose of mine, won't now!
Going to love people fiddling about with a HDMI-SCART conversion box on new TVs
I still have all those adapters. I also still have my 20 year old VHS recorder. One day I'll even get around to finishing making digital copies of the last 20-30 tapes of bits off TV, that I recorded. I have just about every episode of all the mysterious phenomena TV shows, from the '90s.
And tracking lol
Never doubted it. Vinyl came back, mixtapes came back, just a matter of time for VHS. Memories of Xtra Vision (homaged in Derry Girls as Video Village) flooding back, now. The 80s, 90s and 00s aesthetic has made these formats cool to a younger generation, just as 50s aesthetic was cool in the actual 80s. Games on cartridges, next?
"Games on cartridges, next?"
[stares in Nintendo Switch]
Plenty of very cheesy xtravision adverts online, I can’t see video libraries taking off again in the physical form.
@@areasquirrel ehm, Nintendo Switch? There's also the Evercade consoles.
Have you not seen what's been on offer from Limited Run, Strictly Limited, retro-bit, and one more I'm forgetting the name of?
A difference is that they never stopped making turntables or cassette players (although there are plenty of people complaining that they aren't Nakamichi quality). In contrast the last new VHS machines were made in 2016.
As a 90s kid, the prospect of these things coming back pleases me greatly 😊
and me without a VHS player young Isaac used to love watching Thomas The Tank Fireman Sam and Brum on VHS
I'm actually buying a new pressed VHS edition next Monday. It's called Nightbeast (that's him on my avatar). I'm really amazed they are pumping them out, even though small amount of titles.
I still have VHS. Why? Because I have stuff that has never been released on a dvd or blu ray. Also still have the Alien trilogy box set where it was in a facehugger case.
Great stuff!
Looks like they are tapping into the boutique side of the collecting market with a similar model to companies like 'Limited Run Games'.
No one is making new VHS tapes anymore, but there are still plenty of NOS (New Old Stock) ones left around to use. That's how you'll also see some new albums being released on 8-track tapes. Just like them, they're probably only making a few hundred of each, and the price is high because I doubt they have any high-speed duplication equipment in service anymore, so they just have to use a bunch of VCRs and record each tape in real time, so it's a slow process to produce them.
I do find it odd that they gave it a region code, even though that was never a thing on analog media. I presume they meant to say that these are PAL tapes, not NTSC.
There’s so many tapes out there. VHS is becoming popular again, so does Betamax. There are tons of them available out there.
I'd like Now to release Now Yearbook onto VHS with music videos from the album and the cassette colour to match the vinyl and CDs. That would be cool.
I bought several Now VHS tapes back in the day when they sold them in places like HMV. Like lots of things, if adjusted for inflation they were probably a similar price to these tapes are now. Of course my first VCR cost me £340.
It's funny a few days ago, I was thinking newly released VHS tapes, would cost about 29.99 - 39.99, give or take. So crazy they put this limited edition on VHS, I still have my VHS/DVD combo player, I need to hook it up to see if it still works.
My early childhood days watching animation where those exact days and I’d love to see how this would rival blu ray and streaming services
I saw a few classic movies recently for sale on vhs here in Australia at a charity shop and interesting collection
A big problem is there are no new VHS players are available. If you still have one, it may not actually work anymore. Belts turn into goo and plastic parts go brittle and break. Maybe, you can find a guy that can take a crack at servicing it. Good luck with that. Electronics repair was barely there in the 2000s. All we have left is mostly computer and cell phone repair. We need new VHS players.
I've started using cassettes to listen to music again
movie rental stores need to come back!
Love the artwork on the VHS covers and VHS themselves but I genuinely don't know how well these will do. I feel like anything marked 'Limited Edition' is always going to sell.
I've seen some new VHS coming out last year from the artist Ginger root with music videos from their last few EP's and then there a music distributor that released a few VHS tapes of some live shows from a band called King gizzard and the lizard wizard, nice to see VHS's come back for movies
The thing that makes tape "hard" (as in more difficult), is that it requires a non-insignificant amount of time to reproduce (near real-time in some cases). Sure, you could record it faster than playback, but it's always going to come at a cost of quality. Cassettes are small enough that a few players have managed to keep tooling alive, but VHS, idk - I hope so.
It won't happen but I'd love to get a VHS copy of my favourite film, The Legend Of Billie Jean, starring Helen Slater, Christian Slater and Yeardley Smith. The original VHS cover makes the film look like a cartoon though, I don't know if that was common in the 80s for a live action film to get a animated, drawn cover, but I think it's bizarre.
@9:17 you're awesome. Pet shop boys it couldn't happen here. It's a weird film but I love it. Im a big PSB fan
Forget 4K ultra, I am heading to 4K VHS Tapes and sitting on 32 VCRS Suvivor is keeping it alive ! LOL
I am used to buying the new tapes for USED prices finding old sealed ones! Got a BAD boys, Cast Away, and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon for 1$ each Sealed watermarks at the Thrift yesterday Keep on Huntin' from 59th St OKC, Oklahoma USA
I still remember junking my VHS collection around 2004 which I started building up from 1985....no chance i would go back to it.
I do look forward to the day when the next generation comes along and I present them with some VHS tapes from my childhood that I have stored away in the loft. Obviously they can indulge in all the new kids TV if they so wish, but I do plan on introducing them to some of the stuff I used to watch (Noddy, Rosie and Jim, etc) and I'm sure they'll like it, if not more and what better way than on a vintage format like VHS.
Scotch videotapes advertising the pinnacle of every Christmas television during the 80’s the skeleton originally voiced by Deryck Guyler later got replaced by Richard Wilson and yes the skeleton was animated by the same studios as thunderbirds and his name is Archie .
The song Re-record not fade away was a parody of an 70’s song from The Rolling Stones that was a cover version originally sang by buddy holly in the 60’s .
Lastly: I went to Scarborough last February and I bought Michael Jackson’s Moonwalker vintage vhs for £5.00 from a charity shop so vhs is still live and well if stored in perfect environment .
My nan had a vhs player at hers till I was 5 or 6. I’d watch my moms Disney movies and sooty tapes, my uncles noddy and fireman Sam tapes and the teletubbies tapes my nan brought for me
50p from the bargain bin a few years ago, splash a bit of paint on them, what a waste of money
this is just tapping into people's nostalgia. Sure about 5 years ago they started selling vinyls and record players in supermarkets and no sooner were they out they were gone again
Here in Chile, Santa Isabel still sells vinyls and record players to this day.
@@SoyLuciano that's cool
Eh, I will say that it is back only when there will be factories that produce brand new tapes.
It might be something that National Audio Company could pick up, I think they are the last ones still making new cassette tapes.
@@Alabaster335 Videotape is quite a different beast chemically, and it's loaded with all sorts of 'nasties' that really wouldn't be good for the environment to start reproducing en mass.
Audio cassette tape and video cassette tapestock are entirely different things altogether. It's a lot simpler to manufacture basic ferric audio cassette stock.
@@robustreviews True. It amuses me though that cassettes are still being made, but each to their own.
I ended up watching ID4 on VHS via a CRT last week. First full VHS film I've watched in over twenty years. Bit of a shock having been spoilt with 4k and 16:9 aspect ratio all these years, however there is a real nostalgic quality to be enjoyed. Tracking and head cleaning is still a bugger tho lol.
It's only a start, VHS will make a permanent comeback into the mainstream.
With the rising backlash against streaming and a lack of content ownership, I can see VHS becoming a bigger niche market. Better to have a show on tape than not at all.
But you could do that with DVD. We are currently watching The Gilded Age on DVD as it was cheaper than streaming it.
The return of VHS I have said will happen. (IS anyone really surprised by the backlash against streaming) Too bad its all horror.
Still got VHS tapes, quite a lot, from when I was younger, still got VHS video recorder too, still works. I kinda miss this format.
It's not just that VicePress are shifting NOS tapes, that have been in a warehouse for years?
VHS is dead. VCRs haven't been made for nearly 10 years now, that's unlike records("vinyls"), cassettes, and CDs, where players are still made new.
The same people who complain about vhs quality will listen to music in mp3 form in a heartbeat.
I have to admit love vhs. Been buying em for under ten years mostly horrors off ebay. But bloody expensive some sellers sell em for. Still great to see hmv selling em. 😊
The 80s horror covers of the 80s was awesome especially the video nasty era of the early 80s
I cant go back to vhs, no way
I still have all my videocassettes waiting for hopefully a comeback of VCR'S!!!
It’s not even SVHS !!
I hope it takes off because I've never really liked DVD. VHS was easier to use but the price is too much. The only bad thing is you cannot buy a VHS recorder/ players anymore.
Toys Story 5 - VHS
Thanks for the informative video. The new VHS releases look cool and collectible from a Dario Argento/Evil Dead fan's perspective. The licensed posters are also awesome as the price of the originals can be prohibitive for those without deep pockets. VHS will remain a niche market, but it is nice to see companies offering products for fans.
only question is what would work with these
A VCR
@@glassowlie but would they would work with old vcrs? nobody makes them anymore, and these are new vhs tapes
@@ashyofficial23i think that all tapes, regardless of their date of manufacturing, will work in all types of VHS-compatible VCRs
@@TestNintendo so can it work on 90s/2000s vcrs?
@@ashyofficial23 They'll play with any VCR that carries the "VHS" mark, which were made between 1976 and 2016. They won't play with Betamax format VCRs, which still show up from time to time.
Well, I agree that physical media should make a comeback. But VHS - seriously? Even as someone who grew up with the format, I was glad to leave it behind. Blu-ray and DVD are smaller, never wear out and the picture is FAR better.
Nostalgia is sooo predictable at this point. Every 20 years usually
The UK didn't have cardboard slipcases for most of its VHS releases? Plastic clamshell cases were relatively uncommon -- not in the sense that they were rare, but in the sense that _most_ VHS releases didn't have them -- in America.
I still have 2 unused vhs players, belts need replacing, might just have to do that!
VHS coming back is hilarious!! Hipsters make me laugh. If it's not on optical disc then it's a no go for me...CD, DVD, HD DVD and Blu-ray only!
When's laserdisc coming back lol
I never stopped to use VHS since 1988.
I'm a video expert. I started with SONY EIAJ (B&W Reel to Reel) in 1979.
Video Tape Formats I've used:
SONY CV (Open Reel B&W) 1960's
SONY EIAJ (Open Reel B&W) 1960's & 70's
Akai Quarter Inch (Open Reel B&W) 1960's & 70's
Technicolor Quarter Inch (Cassette Colour) 1980's
SONY U-Matic (Cassette Colour) 1970's
PHILIPS VCR (Cassette Colour) 1970's
VHS (Cassette Colour) 1970's
S-VHS (Cassette Colour) 1980's
VHS-C (Cassette Colour) 1980's
S-VHS-C (Cassette Colour) 1980's
8MM (Cassette Colour) 1980's
HI-8 (Cassette Colour) 1980's
Digital 8 (Cassette Colour) 2000
Mini DV (Cassette Colour) 1990's
Optical Formats:
Laserdisc 1970's
Video CD
DVD-RAM
DVD-R
DVD-R/W
DVD+R
DVD+RW
Blu-Ray
These days, I use Hard Disk Drives (HDD), and Solid State Drives (SSD).
VHS Video Cassette Recorders, and Players (a player doesn't have record functionality) are no longer manufactured. Nor is the tape stock.
So, I'm not quite sure how a VHS revival is going to work?
I remember when hard disks were just abbreviated to HD. Then high definition video came out, so that was also being calls HD. Since then, people started calling hard drives, hard disk drives or HDD.
Nice, I also have a Sony CV stitting on my desk for overhaul at the moment.
You're entirely right, there's no stock and no toolling left for videoheads. Unless somebody wants to drop a few-hundred million in to starting this all over again it's just a gimmick.
@@robustreviews It's a pity, because helical scan video technology was "magical!" ... Loved the purr of the video heads, and the tubed video cameras! ... Modern digital video technology is technically superior, but it's a little "sterile" and soulless! It's just not as much fun? Maybe it's rose-coloured spectacle syndrome?
I can see you doing an episode of The Ident Review on the VicePress Home Video Ident
TNA Wrestling came out with collectible VHS copies of their Slammiversary event in 2021, so stuff like this isn't new
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did pick up a few blank VHS tapes last year at a computer convention. I was planning on using them for generating data for AI upscaling.
I have a video player but hope not its to bad quality on anything bigger than a 32 inch TV. VHS is ok for them little portable TVs that have it built in I just sold one for £20 the other day he was over them moon with his crt screen I do have a video of it.
Why does it say Region 2? Surely it means PAL
i still use my 1985 jvc vhs, sky didgi box with freesat makes it still able to record, i got a dvd recorder aswell tho, but the vhs looks fine on my 32" flatscreen , & picture is better from this old machine than some of the junk ones in vhs later years
As VHS was commoditized in to the 1990s you're right, some of the budget machines were absolute junk (looking at you Funai/Amstrad) but it did bring the cost down to the point the majority of homes owned a video recorder.
Either way, we're talking about blearly "colour-under" and interlaced PAL because that's what the system is ultimately.
I never heard about vhs before i wasn't existed until 2003.
Panasonic and another company will be producing new vcrs soon they announced.
The most important video you will ever watch would be an interesting watch Adam. What is it?
I believe it's an old promo for the Labour Party for the '97 Election! 😂😂
@@AdamMartyn might be worth a miss then 😅 the official things can only get better party political tv presentation is verging on slightly creepy. I see why Blair had the flair at the time based on it ☺️
I still use VHS to this day. Never stopped using it.
It's an absolute junk format in a modern high definition world and makes no sense on a flat screen TV.
@@DavidMander-rs4uk Yes, I use DVDs, blue ray, steaming, etc. But I still use VHS for my old stuff
Lots of films never made the jump from VHS to DVD. fewer still made the jump from DVD to Blu. Still fewer made the jump to streaming. And even fewer have made the jump to 4K.
If you fancy yourself any kind of audiovisual media scholar or archivist - especially when dealing with obscure, nonmainstream, or cult material, multiformat playback capability is essential for preservation.
just one big issue where do you buy a working VHS player today ,in the UK ?
I have trading places and airplane on Blu-ray but they been special boxed like a VHS cassette.
Waste of space!
DVDs are overrated! I have had trouble playing brand news ones in DVD players which are not very old either! They keep pauses, and skipping! With VHS tapes, they were only a problem if the tape inside got chewed up!
I remember, often hired video tapes would have stretched parts where people had been pausing the movie in the same place. I think I may have slightly ruined one of my own tapes, doing the same thing, because I wanted to check out the detail of something in the movie.
@@jublywublycheck out the detail... 🤔
I hope VHS tapes return.
The irony you used a sony trailer and they brought out beta max the rival that was better but not cost effective to the consumer!
Bring back Edison's wax cylinder, I say!
I doubt vhs is coming back but I got 3 vhs players in my closest if it happens .
Too big and bulky and poor quality for most people these days
$30 is insane and no one will pay for that
For over 10 years ago and today am buying vhs movies more VCR players off eBay and Amazon not hard finding it's the people who is hard finding the truth now days they never lift at all you lift it
I ran an experiment a while ago and with modern free digital and sky tv upgrades vhs now has a higher recording quality compared to dvd recording
I really hope we go back to flawed media. I'm so tired of everything being perfect nowadays.
VHS 📼
Oh come on seriously this is ridiculous...
I gave most of my tapes to the charity shop.
The thing with tapes, audio and video, the quality of the media isn't great so why bother when you can get a high quality version....
DVD: Wait What.
I’m very doubtful VHS will come back due to DVD and 4K/HD.
Let it die.
Video quality was worse, sound was worse, tracking and rewinding tapes was inconvenient. Tapes always broke and came apart in the video machine that had to be fished out.
The only advantage tape had was the relative ease of recording live TV.
Hiya - I've still got my Video Recorder but I'm not really into Horror films thou...May be do other films say James Bond or Some thing perhaps??? 🤔🚂🚂🚂
I may buy a few just for display purposes.
Stuff like Suspiria, The Thing, The Evil Dead, An American Werewolf... etc
There was a time when DVD's were more expensive than VHS tapes, now you can get them for a quid!
Aee first classic playstation and VHS is baaaaaaaaaaaaack blimey we are back go on SU garden 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮 Adam
30 dollars for a vhs tape that's funny
Is VHS coming back?
Not no but hell no.😅
📼
I still have a tape player, I'm all here for this. make it mainstream like the vinyl comeback
Didn't get the hype for Susperia - Twilight Zone ass ending. I won't give details but bleh
I turned it off, half way through. Nothing much happened and the few scenes that did have some action were very short and disjointed from the other scenes. That silver ball thing just came about with no lead up to what it was or any reason for it being there. It's like they spliced in something from another movie.
@@jublywubly Fair enough. I was very bored and only watched it for a film class so I kinda had to see the end.
RETURN TO ANALOG
Broken vhs tapes more fixbel with Scotch tape it starts playing again with out no problem's
I tried watching Susperia, but I turned it off half way through. It's just so boring. It's so slow moving with about eighty percent filler, to make a short story into a full-length film.
I still have an original, ex-hire, VHS tape of The Evil Dead II: Dead By Dawn. I'll never get rid of it.
I copied all of my hundreds of VHS tapes onto DVDs. I used a DVD program to create proper menus, with photos, chapters, a background photo and I kept all the original preview adverts as extras on the DVDs.
The quality of VHS is just crap. Interesting for historic reasons, but not to use. The same with "405 alive", this is just a historic group, but no rebirth of black and white TV.
Most old VHF Video Recorders have been thrown away or have stopped working.
So where can you buy a new VHF Recorder to play the tapes on.
Not a lot of point buying a video if you have nothing to play it on.
Still plenty of VCR's on the second hand market tho right?
@@AdamMartyn Yep. Cheap too. Under £30 in most cases, less if missing the remote. Though if buying, it's probably best to test them first (there's a lot that could go wrong in a VCR). Get a "sacrificial tape" to test if it loads, then eject and check the tape isn't chewed. Rewind and Fast Forward a few times. Then wire it up to a TV and check it plays right (may need to adjust tracking if it doesn't have auto-tracking). Testing if it records is whole other matter which requires more stuff...
Small point, but here in the UK all of our machines were UHF only in case anybody is confused. We abandoned VHF television with the death of 405 System-A.
VHF?
@@royfontaine5526 North America (and I believe ROI) had some analogue stations on VHF in the domestic videotape era.
I think the OP was trying to very grandly (and incorrectly) say - _analogue_ but the distinction whilst wrong makes slightly more sense in the North American context.