Jay made a good point. It’s the same reason why I don’t like big bads in my campaign settings. Eventually, the campaign jumps the shark and the big bad and its storyline becomes the focal point. The characters’ journey and campaign becomes a thing of the past, forgotten, and eventually the unimportant thing, kinda railroaded by what the big bad does to the world because they’re so powerful. My rule of thumb for my campaign is that if the current campaign and NPCs within that can’t stand on your own outside the big bad then it’s probably worthwhile to put some time to make them compelling so that the campaign doesn’t jump the shark. I should probably do the same with the planes. If my (prime material) campaign isn’t compelling enough to where jumping to the planes would be the better option, then I need to really sit down and rework my campaign to make it compelling.
@seanbrown207 OblivionSeeker here. I largely agree, although I see jumping the shark, the presence of a Big Bad, and railroading as overlapping but not identical problems. As a setting, Greyhawk has some of the game's most iconic villains, and several of them have some sort of planar connection. But many of these villains aren't simply long-lived, cunning, and ruthless; they're political beings with their own agendas, and they and their interests are worldly, that is, very much *of* or focused primarily *on* the Oerth. The situations and possible outcomes are fluid and complicated. Some tables like using a god or demon lord or one of the Nine as world-breaking baddy. And while that's fine if it's someone's jam, well... I'm not a fan of what I call the apocalypse du jour. Races against time to save the world can work, but when used too often, they become predictable, almost scripted things-- and therefore boring. Hence the examples from my own experience-- a rising body count as interested parties, some perhaps not of this world, seek a potion derived from a plant found only on another plane; a site that simultaneously exists on Oerth and elsewhere but seems to shift between worlds according to whatever factors; an incursion of yeth hounds or similar creatures that have discovered a tear or thinness in the planar fabric; a PC or beloved NPC is afflicted with some otherworldly pestilence. Also, keep in mind that not every encounter with something from another plane has to end in violent confrontation. Not all such beings are evil, and even the worst might be open to negotiations and quid pro quo, although PCs might want to check any fine print... These involve the planes, and sometimes PCs find themselves crossing into those planes temporarily (by choice or not), but they're still very much grounded in the primary setting and characters.
Thanks for understanding the point I was trying to make. I have no problem with other planes; I just do not want it to become the focal point of my Greyhawk Campaign!
In my "Greyhawk" campaign the planes are the source of magic. Arcane magic draws upon the elemental forces (Plane of Fire for a fireball, Plane of Lightning for a Lightning bolt, positive plane for a magic missile, negative plane for a necromantic spell) etc....Divine magic is called upon from the outer planes, depending on the deity's alignment and plane of existence. Ethereal is the "highway" to the Inner Planes, Astral is the "highway" to the Outer Planes.
Given more thought; if one were just beginning their campaign they could plant and slowly reveal the planescspe factions within the city of Greyhawk. Just with human faces. It's interesting to consider what deities might have sects affiliated with which factions and so forth. At the end of the day its just more cults to fiddle around with.
Jay made a good point. It’s the same reason why I don’t like big bads in my campaign settings. Eventually, the campaign jumps the shark and the big bad and its storyline becomes the focal point. The characters’ journey and campaign becomes a thing of the past, forgotten, and eventually the unimportant thing, kinda railroaded by what the big bad does to the world because they’re so powerful.
My rule of thumb for my campaign is that if the current campaign and NPCs within that can’t stand on your own outside the big bad then it’s probably worthwhile to put some time to make them compelling so that the campaign doesn’t jump the shark.
I should probably do the same with the planes. If my (prime material) campaign isn’t compelling enough to where jumping to the planes would be the better option, then I need to really sit down and rework my campaign to make it compelling.
@seanbrown207 OblivionSeeker here. I largely agree, although I see jumping the shark, the presence of a Big Bad, and railroading as overlapping but not identical problems. As a setting, Greyhawk has some of the game's most iconic villains, and several of them have some sort of planar connection. But many of these villains aren't simply long-lived, cunning, and ruthless; they're political beings with their own agendas, and they and their interests are worldly, that is, very much *of* or focused primarily *on* the Oerth. The situations and possible outcomes are fluid and complicated.
Some tables like using a god or demon lord or one of the Nine as world-breaking baddy. And while that's fine if it's someone's jam, well...
I'm not a fan of what I call the apocalypse du jour. Races against time to save the world can work, but when used too often, they become predictable, almost scripted things-- and therefore boring.
Hence the examples from my own experience-- a rising body count as interested parties, some perhaps not of this world, seek a potion derived from a plant found only on another plane; a site that simultaneously exists on Oerth and elsewhere but seems to shift between worlds according to whatever factors; an incursion of yeth hounds or similar creatures that have discovered a tear or thinness in the planar fabric; a PC or beloved NPC is afflicted with some otherworldly pestilence.
Also, keep in mind that not every encounter with something from another plane has to end in violent confrontation. Not all such beings are evil, and even the worst might be open to negotiations and quid pro quo, although PCs might want to check any fine print...
These involve the planes, and sometimes PCs find themselves crossing into those planes temporarily (by choice or not), but they're still very much grounded in the primary setting and characters.
Thanks for understanding the point I was trying to make. I have no problem with other planes; I just do not want it to become the focal point of my Greyhawk Campaign!
🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉
In my "Greyhawk" campaign the planes are the source of magic. Arcane magic draws upon the elemental forces (Plane of Fire for a fireball, Plane of Lightning for a Lightning bolt, positive plane for a magic missile, negative plane for a necromantic spell) etc....Divine magic is called upon from the outer planes, depending on the deity's alignment and plane of existence. Ethereal is the "highway" to the Inner Planes, Astral is the "highway" to the Outer Planes.
Makes sense to me. My Elementalist Spellcasting class probably draws from those planes, but they do not even realize it.
You could replace sigil with the world serpent inn to keep Greyhawk as the hub of the campaign
Definitely. Or Odd Alley.
(OblivionSeeker here.)
Given more thought; if one were just beginning their campaign they could plant and slowly reveal the planescspe factions within the city of Greyhawk. Just with human faces. It's interesting to consider what deities might have sects affiliated with which factions and so forth. At the end of the day its just more cults to fiddle around with.
!Drawing