Thank you, thank you, thank you, Vidas! Spot on! So many misunderstandings and so much ignorance surrounding this ceremony and the improvisations, when in fact it was perfectly fitting both for the ceremony itself, and in keeping with the true tradition of Notre Dame and the French School!
Sadly "ignorance" is not necessarily the only explanation. Even though I give intellectual assent to the fact that the performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the culture and traditions in which it was intended, I can also say that it was not a performance that I liked (enjoyed). For me -- and others, I would think -- mere intellectual assent does not necessarily coincide with personal enjoyment. We are still left with the fact that MANY listeners -- including professional organists -- also greatly disliked the performance. You may try to rationalize this by explaining that those who dislike it are ill-qualified to express a reasonable dislike owing to their ignorance and lacking understanding surrounding this ceremony and the improvisations The fact is that this performance had a vastly huge exposure which completely missed the capabilities of 99.9% of its viewers to assimilate and enjoy -- even with extensive "re-training" (as some comments suggest -- "if they just weren't so ignorant they would enjoy it") We could agree on all the academic points and still not undo the fact that, for however much you try to intellectually rationalize it, while the performance met the criteria of a very small percentage of viewers, for the vast majority of viewers a great opportunity was missed, and considerable harm was done which could have been avoided had other choices been made.
@@aBachwardsfellow The organists’ echo chamber is vast and incredibly rigid. Meanwhile, the real world moves on, and just might vote down the next subsidy or renovation project for a church organ after witnessing the brutal representation of “organ music” that was heard at the NDame reopening. For these rigid organists it’s fine because there’s always Hauptwerk- they can play in their living rooms to an audience of one.
The reawakening of the organ, the choice of music played and the style in which it was performed was in the French tradition of improvisation. It was totally appropriate.
I agree with you. Olivier Latry was at Our Lady of Refuge in Brooklyn NY and improvised for the same liturgy it is worth a listen since it was in English. I thought the improvisions reflected the liturgy very well. Don't know if there was an explanation provided did not see any programs. Thank you for explaining.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I bet Mr. Latry improvised differently in Brooklyn than at Notre Dame. I also heard him play live for the dedication of the organ at St. Cecilia Cathedral in Omaha, NE. Much different from Notre Dame but amazing nonetheless.
This is exactly what needed to be said. Let Notre Dame do it the way they do it! They were amazing improvisations and I am glad you posted this video. And to the people who wanted it to be more palatable, shame. It is not YOUR service!
If people want to give feedback on how they viewed the improvisations or any aspect of the service they are free to do so. This video gives one man's opinions. Let Notre Dame do it the way it does it- yes-- and let anyone comment on it as they wish.
@davidmorrison2739 Again, that didn’t belong to us, it belongs to Notre Dame. They did exactly what they needed to, showing what Notre Dame does on any liturgical occasion. Suggestions on how to change it in the future to make it more palatable for you or the masses is inappropriate and unnecessary. Maybe instead of complaining, we could teach why it was important historically!
I understand the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation. I also understand the role of the liturgy and the prominent role the organ has. I understand the skill it takes to achieve these improvisations, and the mental challenge it takes to combine all the required knowledge to uphold this in a performance, let alone during such a significant moment like the re-opening of the cathedral. However, and as always, I've found that whenever improvisation or pieces surpass even barely recognizable music from masters like (for example) Messiaen, of which the majority of his work is almost impossible to bring to an audience (safe for his Nativité du Seigneur, of which I've played Dieu Parmi Nous multiple times on concerts, and few other of his pieces), you're just mashing buttons at that point. And, I know that you can go even further than what Latry and collegues did here, so there's still some margin. I'm just of the opinion that whenever you listen to music, or audio if you will, from the moment the entire thing is unrecognizeable and unreachable, you're either just playing for yourself or you've missed the point of creating music in the first place. It doesn't help that I stylistically don't like the French improvisations too much to begin with, but no way in hell will the audience have enjoyed most of the improvisations, because it's LITERALLY impossible for them to understand. Basically completely missing the point of reaching the audience or 'elevating them' into heaven (or other non-sensical descriptions). No matter how intelligent you need to be, how skilled you are, whether you're the best in what you do or not (Latry is among the best), how crucial the traditions are etc... if you cannot reach your audience or even outright cause confusion or disbelief, you've missed the point of making music. Everyone will have a different opinion of what is music, but it's my experience that abstract improvisations almost always leave a negative or confusing impression on the majority of the public. If we look in the future, nobody will say "oh wow, do you remember that amazing music from the organ at the opening?". Instead, people will or already have completely forgotten that the organ ever played, or might even remember it in a negative way. I don't know a single non-professional musician that comes even close to listening to music remotely similar to the improvisations that were brought here. Nobody in his right mind would ever do this UNLESS they wanted to uphold this tradition or played like this themselves. Surely, professional organists know how impressive this is. But, that's because we ALREADY know what it takes and we've trained long and hard to understand this music. We cannot expect the same from the audience, and therefore I find it would've been a better choice to tailor the improvisations to the audience both in the cathedral as well as those watching live, rather than play for those 10 professional organists in the world. So, in review, huge respect to all the organists appointed to the Notre Dame. They are amazingly skilled, and I understand all the tradition. At the end of the day, however, they missed a huge opportunity to put the organ in international spotlight and the (majority of the) audience was rightfully critical and disappointed.
You argue your case very strongly. I agree that for the masses, this did the organ and world-class organists no favours at all. Vidas equally argues very strongly that what we heard was the only possible way the four organists could remain faithful to the great Notre Dame tradition of French liturgical improvisation. It would seem to have been a no win event all round . . . apart from with that very small minority of us who love and understand and respect the tradition that was on display. Still, a huge disappointment for certain. 🥲
@GamingRevenant THANK YOU!! for putting into such well-grounded words what the rest of us - deemed the "ignorant" -- have tried to express in our simplistic, ignoant responses. Yes -- here we find the "ten" (or however few) organists who may genuinely appreciate the combined effort of skill, artistry, and tradition to create the performances that were rendered -- clamoring in defense of justifying their elitist position against the common ignorant masses of those who love and enjoy a wide musical experience that is quite outside of their elitist confines. Vidas has astutely positioned himself to side with the organist "profession" while trying to not too severly trample upon those whose preferences are otherwise. There is a *ministry* of music which uses music to minister to the hearts and souls of people. Then there is the "ministry of the musician" which seeks to elevate the musician to be the object of worship. How many oganists find themselves in the latter (Latry?) position?
Completely agree with you. The context of the service is very specific in this case. There were some silly suggestions that have surfaced elsewhere on youtube by others suggesting it would be better to play Joy to the world or Widor Toccata or that the music should be more 'accessible'. This is first and foremost a religious service, not a concert. There is a time and opportunity for other pieces to be played to 'demonstrate' the organ, since there were also concerts that were played around those few days at the Notre Dame e.g. For example Olivier Latry and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France played Saint-Saën's Symphony No. 3 under the baton of Gustavo Dudamel. Just because they did not enjoy the improvisation or the style of music, doesn't mean the improvisation was not appropriate, given it was entirely in the traditions of the type of music played at the Notre Dame, and even if it is not everyone's cup of tea (myself included), they should at least learn to respect it. And for some people out there to claim that the organists' choice of improvisation was somehow 'elitist' - this is just utterly absurd - they are the ones who need to look at themselves for their 'elitist' attitude, that they think they know better than organists of the caliber of Latry, Dubois and co. despite having 0.001% of their combined experiences.
@nightowldickson "Just because they did not enjoy the improvisation or the style of music, doesn't mean the improvisation was not appropriate, given it was entirely in the traditions of the type of music played at the Notre Dame, and even if it is not everyone's cup of tea (myself included), they should at least learn to respect it" (from Google AI): "France has very low church attendance, considered among the lowest in the world, with only a small percentage of the population regularly attending religious services, despite a majority identifying as Catholic" - perhaps now we know why ...
@@flipkoos Apparently -- from indications in other comments -- yes. This is the French tradition. However you have given me rise to hope. Perhaps some ears and hearts are spared in other places. It is perhaps to their good fortune that not all organists are as fully endowed in the art of cacophony as is Latry. Perhaps the more ignorant and simple people with "4-chord tastes" are not subjected to such a constant barrage of dissonance and are able to worship in a manner that is more conducive to their simple faith.
@@aBachwardsfellowcheap shot - all Europe has low attendance. “According to available data, the "average Christian" is typically considered to be a woman living in the Global South, likely from a lower socioeconomic background, and with a younger age compared to the global population, often residing in Latin America or Africa…” Europeans turned away from Christianity as a living faith long ago.
@@aBachwardsfellow”their simple faith” - how quaint & patronizing. If there’s one thing to be said, it’s that faith isn’t simple. No more simple than love.
Thank you for discussing Notre Dame's unique improvisational history. I was blown away by all of the organ music that was performed during the reawakening, and thought that it was perfectly appropriate. It was a mini-history of French organ music of the past 400 years (funny how nobody is mentioning the two baroque-style improvisations that were perfectly tonal, and in the style of Couperin or Balbastre). As to the reactions of various heads of state: that was probably more live, serious music than the US President-Elect has experienced in his entire life. He actively eschews any arts-related activities here in the US. He should learn something...
Mr. Trump has attended numerous state funerals at Washington National Cathedral, and attends a very high liturgical and fine music episcopal church in Palm Beach for Christmas and Easter. So he has indeed heard great liturgical music, but the question about whether he actually listens to it, well.....?
@@ginabalestracci140 I think we both know the answer…..I would guess to him and many other elites it’s just background music….to be done and gotten done with as quickly as possible.
@ginabalestracci140@@sfoster2911 it would be interesting to know what the definition of "serious" music is .... Perhaps Bach does not fall under the category of "serious" music ....
The response of the Organists "Improvisations" were very appropriate to the "call" of the Bishop. They were done in the style that is expected and this was for this specific organ and this specific Church in a traditional style - Grand Jeu, Tierce en Taille, Plein Jeu and I can't put my finger on the other five, but they all had structure, rhythm, harmony, contrapuntal and melodic.
You have been very eloquent with this! My opinion? This was religious in every sense. All these 8 pieces have recognizable melodies, combine godlike intuition and meticulous skill. I've been listening to the recording over and over again. In addition, both Zelensky and Trump have been faced with assasination attempts - you honestly think these guys are offended by sometimes loud and virtuous organ music? Critics should celebrate the creation of these new heroes! Louis Vierne, Marcel Dupre and most others where criticised when they published their innovative music - now they are part of the standard repertoire. thanks for this video - it's important!
It's crazy how this topic divides the organ nation. I see it a little differently. Maybe a mix would have been appropriate, as in my opinion the opportunity to make this wonderful instrument suitable for the masses again was missed. and in my opinion this opportunity has clearly been missed.
I fully understand your point, Markus and I understand the feelings and intentions of some of the loudest critics too. However, the general audience was not the primary concern. The primary concern was liturgy. Liturgically, this type of playing was the only viable option at this place and time.
Maybe it was a 'misplaced' opportunity, rather than a 'missed' opportunity. It's a shame the planned recitals over the next twelve months will not be mass televised globally . . . or at least, any pieces in those recitals that would garner general public approval, as I suspect the programmes will have quite a lot of organ music played that only appeals to the erudite minority and not what would be popularly appreciated by the non-organ masses!
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying "Liturgically, this type of playing was the only viable option at this place and time." (from Google AI): "France has very low church attendance, considered among the lowest in the world, with only a small percentage of the population regularly attending religious services, despite a majority identifying as Catholic" - perhaps now we know why ..
The context of the mass needed to be respected and indeed it wasn’t a recital nor was it meant to be for ‘entertainment’. Olivier Latry is clearly a gifted musician. However, he could have chosen to improvise the responses to the priests invocations in a manner perhaps slightly more harmonically and melodically ‘tuneful’ and accessible without in any way compromising the integrity of the mass. Widor, Vierne, & Durufle most definitely would have improvised in a more melodic way, traditions that go back in history much further than Cochereau. The contemporary post modernist style has developed in more recent history (1960’s onwards), Messiaen for instance is certainly not to everyone’s taste and I certainly wouldn’t choose his music to introduce a newby to the pipe organ. He did right some interesting music which needs a discerning ear to appreciate. Regarding improvisation, I tend to think longer term and the musical tradition of Cathedral improvisation goes back long before Cochereau (himself an accomplished musician but not to everyone’s taste). So in my humble opinion, the Notre Dame mass was great, the Choir were excellent, I just wish Olivier had improvised in a slightly less modernist/contemporary way and a little more pleasant on the ears! I know that’s the preferred style of improvisation in Notre Dame these days but it hasn’t always been that way. We all want the pipe organ to prosper in the future.
This criticism is odd because Latry is NOT Widor, Vierne or Durufle. Everyone knows what to expect from Latry as he has been improvising for decades and there are MANY MANY recorded examples of this. His improvisations and those of the others were stunning. Latry's improvisation depicted the phoenix rising from the ashes - thus the organ was reawakened.
I agree. I know there were people who wanted things more familiar, or perhaps less in the tradition of Notre Dame. Having heard the organists over the years at Notre Dame I always love the improvisational nature of the way the organists opened up the organ to reawaken it in splendid fashion. It was exciting to hear, and well within the wonderful improvisational tradition of Notre Dame. I remember the excitement of past organists doing the. same way. Bravo for the organists.
(from Google AI): "France has very low church attendance, considered among the lowest in the world, with only a small percentage of the population regularly attending religious services, despite a majority identifying as Catholic" - perhaps now we know why ...
Playing selections more appropriate to the throngs of people who attended the opening service, as well as the multitudes that watched it live around the world would have been better served by a simple explanation beforehand. The roaring, shrieking, snarling, and utter grating shrillness of the opening presentation completely missed the mark, in my opinion. Even the facial expressions of apprehension seen on the faces of some of the Clergy and some of the guests spoke volumes. 'When will this end?' - seemed to bd the undercurrent thought of many. For highly educated people, maybe this would have been appropriate. I would have rather seen a showcasing of many of the bright young organists who bring much hope and encouragement to this world with their offerings of greatness that I see, and encourage every day. This opening performance completely missed the mark. The fact that an explanation was felt to be necessary at this juncture to explain away the debacle that was the opening - the awakening of the organ - tells it all. Please be more inclusive and encouraging of young organists in the future, who are our hope for a better world. These old dogs have more than had their day. Respectfully submitted.
Playing selections more appropriate to the throngs of people who attended the opening service, as well as the multitudes that watched it live around the world would have been better served by a simple explanation beforehand. The roaring, shrieking, snarling, and utter grating shrillness of the opening presentation completely missed the mark, in my opinion. Even the facial expressions of apprehension seen on the faces of some of the Clergy and some of the guests spoke volumes. 'When will this end?' - seemed to be the undercurrent thought of many. For highly educated people, maybe this would have been appropriate. I would have rather seen a showcasing of many of the bright young organists who bring much hope and encouragement to this world with their offerings of greatness that I see, and encourage every day. This opening performance completely missed the mark. The fact that an explanation was felt to be necessary at this juncture to explain away the debacle that was the opening - the awakening of the organ - tells it all. Please be more inclusive and encouraging of young organists in the future, who are our hope for a better world. These old dogs have more than had their day. Respectfully submitted.
I was in awe of the music of the liturgy. I’ve spent lots of words on this app trying to defend its beauty. Thanks for this educated and eloquent explanation - not that it’s going make much difference to the detractors. Explaining history and tradition to ego-centrics who feel like the world revolves around their experiences and should bow to their tastes is often a waste of breath - sad to say.
Most people’s (general public) interest in the pipe organ is marginal at best. But when they hear one, they don’t expect to be offended or assaulted by it unless it’s a haunted house type concert! In this case, they were in shock and many thought it was some kind of joke……I’ve even seen commentary asserting the organists are anti-Trump and wanted to protest by playing in such a manner. Organists know this isn’t true, but it’s alarming to hear such commentary…..
@@sfoster2911 The commentary exposes their ignorance. These folks’ expectations are the equivalent of going to a fine French restaurant and being “offended” they didn’t serve McDonalds-style French fries and ketchup. Their uneducated (and unreal) expectations are offensive - to the chef and the diners who’ve eaten there for decades.
@@nickwilson7697 A somewhat crude and patronizing analogy. People choosing to enter a fine French restaurant may (or perhaps should) have some idea of what they may encounter. Millions of viewers from all over the world, from differing nations, cultures, walks of life, with differing levels of understanding, musical experience and tastes, tuning in to view a re-dedication of one of the world's best-known and finest organs, may have been caught "somewhat" off-guard to find themselves being force-fed French "cuisine" which they might never have willingly ordered for themselves. And yes, which they may easily spit out of their mouths with no "cultured pretense" -- not having the elite cultural conditioning to politely smile and say, "It's delicious! Magnificent!" -- while struggling not to gag ...
Very well explained. I have tried, but not as well as you. It is sad that the critics are ignorant of the structure of the mass at Notre Dame de Paris and at other churches in France, and of the culture of its post-Cochereau musical history. Bach was a German Protestant, Notre Dame de Paris is a French Catholic cathedral. Do not expect inappropriate music during the mass. You can hear so many wonderful Bach and other composers' organ works played in concert on this organ before the fire. You will hear more going forward. But if you go to a mass at NDdP (as I have many times), you will hear its post-Cochereau traditional style of liturgical music, with improvised organ versets, interludes, entres, and sorties. I love such organ music, as much as I love virtually all other organ music.
Yes, probably the most critical voices heard such improvisations for the first time in this context and based their opinions on their preexisting knowledge of organ music which was rather limited.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying THAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall. To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
Thank you, Vidas. You have hit the nail on the head with your measured remarks. Why some others don't get it is a mystery to me. I think it has something to do with not understanding the tradition but I'm afraid there is also some lack of respect involved. A lot of these people should really know better before sounding off.
Thank you Vidas. I couldn't agree more with what you said. There is plenty of time for repertoire, but the great tradition of French Mass music is the improvisation. We heard music in different styles (e.g. tierce en taille) as well as free improvisation, and this is the glory of French liturgical music. The Notre-Dame four are at the top of their games, but so are organists all over Paris. You only have to look at St Sulpice and St Eustache as examples. Yes, not everyone will like certain styles, but this is what happens in France. The music across the reopening weekend reflected the traditions of improvisation and written music wonderfully. The Kyrie from Vierne's Mass was just incredible. This is what happens in Paris every week, and it was on'y right that it should be showcased. If somebody doesn't like what they hear, there is the TV 'off' button!! Best wishes to you both for Christmas and the New Year.
Greatly enjoyed the Notre Dame organ blessing television event. The musical improvisations are a tradition at Notre Dame and all eight were magnificent. There will be many additional organ concerts during 2025 illustrating traditional styles of familiar music. The commentary about the tradition of organ improvisation in France is interesting but became distracting when the narrator is walking around the church in circles. I listened to the audio instead and that, to me, was preferable, imho.
How long, I wonder, before the eight improvised versets are transcribed and published and become a suite in their own right to take their place in the library of historic French organ music?
This is a great question. Since other people too have expressed this wish, maybe the four titular organists will feel the need of this to happen sooner rather than later.
The fact that the performance requires an apology or any explanation is more than enough demonstration of its total lack of appropriateness for the occasion
That’s not so. It’s not true that the mysteries of life, faith, love, beauty can just be delivered in pre-wrapped, popularly-accessible parcels. The best things in life take effort: understanding a football match, appreciating a Rembrandt, beginning to comprehend a liturgy, truly loving another. There’s a fine line between quality & elitism, I’ll grant. But everything need not be popular. And Notre Dame is their cathedral, not ours.
Thank you for sharing such a thoughtful reflection on the grand organ reawakening ceremony at Notre Dame Cathedral. It's fascinating to consider how the tradition of improvisation shapes the experience of both the performers and the audience, especially in such a historic context.
HAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall. To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
It's incredible how suddenly the whole world became experts in organ music and improvisation. People are allowed to say they didn't like it, but if they want more recognizable music, maybe they should go to a Taylor Swift concert.
You respond to the critics of the Notre Dame 'organ awakening' ceremony very succinctly, Vidas, and all your points are extremely well made. The improvisations we heard were certainly 'honest' and not, as some claim, self-indulgent - true in their own, unique way to the liturgy, and faithful to the great tradition of improvisation long associated with Pierre Cochereau. I thought they were awesome . . . but I am not Mr Organ Unaware Average Man. What saddens me is that the 'disconnect' expressed by so many unfamiliar with this unique French tradition has found fulsome expression in abusive or negative language used to condemn the music that was created, as well as general hostility to the awakened King of Instruments for the cacophony of sound it is accused of inflicting on the wider audience unfamiliar with the Notre Dame tradition! The organ has few enough friends as it is, bearing in mind the great expense required to maintain existing instruments and the shedload of money required to build awe-inspiring new organs. The organ really needs to win over friends, and certainly not make enemies. It already suffers from a general misguided perception that it is only useful for creating horror movie music or Halloween scares . . . and too many people, unfortunately, seem to have been further horrified by the awakening ceremony. Any globally televised event that produces such a negative outcome with so many is unfortunate to say the least. The damage has been done - but thanks for also trying to do some good by redressing the balance: I hope your voice is heard and also understood!
@grahamtwist -- thank you Graham. It is difficult to see where there is a clear-cut "winner" of this event. For a very small minority, the musical improvisations -- which are a tradition at Notre Dame -- were magnificent. For the world-wide non-Notre dame organ world (now global since the pandemic), the musical improvisations -- which are NOT a tradition for the majority of them were barely magnificent at best -- for those willing to make the intellectual stretch to accommodate consideration of the pieces in their context. For the rest (99 percent ?) of those UNwilling to make the intellectual stretch to accommodate consideration of the pieces in their context, they are now deemed by the few to be the ignorant. Truth be told, we are ALL ignorant to some extent. Some of us are ignorant of the talent, complexities, skills, and traditions involved to make the musical improvisations -- which are a tradition at Notre Dame -- magnificent. Others are ignorant of the sensibilities and preferences which make many intelligent, knowledgeable people dislike the musical improvisations which are a tradition at Notre Dame, and find them to be unpleasant -- even repugnant. So I suppose the "winners" are those few who found the musical improvisations -- which are a tradition at Notre Dame -- to be magnificent. And the losers -- doubly -- are: 1) those who were denied the opportunity to experience one of the finest organs ni the world -- in one of the most famous venues in the world -- played in a manner which would have lifted hearts, minds and spirits to love and appreciate the instrument, and 2) the Notre Dame organ -- which now has imprinted on the minds of millions that it is an ugly-sounding instrument played by pompous and raunchy elitist organists. Far too many people will not think twice to avoid attending another service or concert at Notre Dame. I myself, personally, am having a difficult time trying to "unhear" the memory of what I heard and to disassociate that sound with the organ at Notre Dame.
Thank you, dear Graham for expressing your thoughts! I'm also worried about all the negativity, even from some professional organists. Since no one else has done a similar video yet, I chose to do it.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying Interesting -- are all professional organists only allowed to have a positive opinion? What do you hope to do with regard to addressing all the negativity? It appears that, at this point, all that can be hoped for is damage control. The music was found to be distastefull to a very large number of people. In most other situations -- such as a concert -- the exposure would typically be much less broad, and the typical expected mix of reactions -- favorable and otherwise -- would be confined to that one event and those who attended it. Here you have a world-wide, highly published event, with -- considering the number of viewers -- likely 99.9% of the viewers *NOT* at all acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation. And of that 99.9% you have quite a number expressing their unfamiliarity with -- and accompanying distaste for " ... the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation." *At best* all of those of the 0.01% of viewers who DO understand and appreciate what was done -- expertly and appropriately in accordance with " ... the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation" should do -- as Vidas has attempted to do. That is to clearly explain that what was done, was done expertly and appropriately in accordance with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation". And leave it at that. Is it really necessary to inform the 99.9% of the viewers who are *NOT* acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation -- -- that they are ignorant? Even if that is true -- i.e. that they are not acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation -- is it not somewhat presumptious and patronizing to assume that they would even want to be acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation? And that they are somewhat lacking should they NOT want to be?
@@aBachwardsfellow professional organists are expected to have much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ than the average listener. This results in less toxic opinion about anything. For example, I’m disagreeing with your thoughts right now but we’re having a discussion and not throwing sticks at each other.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying Yes -- agreed. We are neither of us asserting some level of (relative ) ignorance of the other as some other commenters have done (thank you! :-) . I quite understand that professional organists are expected to have much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ than the average listener. As a professional organist, I can give intellectual assent to the fact that a performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which it was intended. However this does not necessarily mean that I like (enjoy ...) that performance or piece. I have heard hundreds of pieces that were interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which they were intended which I very much DO NOT LIKE (enjoy ...) Perhaps you have heard a few such pieces or performances yourself. So I could easily say that I agree with you -- and all those who are seemingly of the same viewpoint that, YES! -- based on your knowledge and assessment of the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation, " ... liturgically, this type of playing was the only viable option at this place and time." I can agree with you -- not because I have the same knowledge as you, but because I acknowledge that you have the credible knowledge to make that statement. However, I could also agree with another professional organist who might say, " ... liturgically, this type of playing was only one of several viable options at this place and time". Is that not also possible? Is it not possible that two (or more) professional organists with similar qualifications might have differing opinions regarding the same performance? At best, being professional may mean the ability (professional courtesy) to allow for professional differences of opinion without resorting to being insulting and toxic. In any case, even though I give intellectual assent to the fact that the performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which it was intended, I can also say that it was not a performance that I liked (enjoyed). For me, mere intellectual assent does not necessarily coincide with personal enjoyment. Now that we (hopefully) have established a rationale for differences in opinion as professional organists, we are still left with the fact that *MANY* listeners -- including professional organists -- also greatly disliked the performance. Whether they registered their dislike "professionally" (non-toxic) or in terms of raw, visceral dislike, the conclusion is that, whether or not the performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which it was intended, it was greatly disliked by many. You may try to rationalize this by explaining that those who dislike it are ill-qualified to express a reasonable dislike owing to their lacking " ... much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ." However, I would hope that we have established that having a " ... much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ" does not necessarily result in a person *LIKING* all things organ. Again -- the greater issue is that this performance had vastly huge exposure which completely missed the capabilities of 99.9% of its viewers to assimilate and enjoy -- even with extensive "re-training" (as some comments suggest -- "if they just weren't so ignorant they would enjoy it") No -- sadly, we can agree on all the academic points and still not undo the fact that, for however much you try to intellectually rationalize it, while the performance met the criteria of a very small percentage of viewers, for the vast majority of viewers a great opportunity was missed, and considerable harm was done which could have been avoided had other choices been made. So back to your damage control. You have covered your professional bases by aligning yourself with those professional organists who (seem to) genuinely applaud the performance and defend its authenticity -- regardless of how it affected anyone else. I doubt that anyone will hold that against you, so your position is secure.
90 Seconds is sufficient time for an organist to respond to any text in a coherent, tasteful, lyrical, and yes thrilling fashion. What we heard was insulting. It was the aural equivalent of graffiti on the walls. Unspeakably ugly, shallow and horrible.
At the reopening of the cathedral Vincent Dubois improvised on two Gregorian chants. If you are not a musician you cannot understand what is going on. Charles Marie Widor toccata is based on a Gregorian chant, but once again if you are not a musician you won't understand anything. Most classical pieces of Bach are based on hymns, but if you are not a musician you cannot understand what is going on. So those who criticize organ improvisation need to learn much about organ music. It is very easy to criticize if you don't know what is going on, and these kind of critics don't make sense. Ravel and Debussy music are completely different from Bach's music but these are as valuable as Bach's music. Please stop these negative critics and deepen your understanding of organ music.
Thank you! I suspected there was Gregorian improvisation going on too but I wasn't sure because I watched to broadcast with the commentary and commentators talked through the performances shamelessly so I might have missed some fine details.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying THAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall. To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
@jamespavlock9615 All the songs are based on a religious theme. That's the most important aspect of all these improvisations. The blessing of an organ is always done by improvisations. Everything organists has its own way to improvise. Some use tonal music like Olivier Latry and Phillipe Lefebvre, other use baroque music like Vincent Dubois or Johann Vexo.
@jamespavlock9615 The blessing of an organ does not allow organists to play long pieces like Widor's toccata. They only have 90 minutes for each improvisation. There will be concerts very soon. So you can hear there wonderful organ pieces like the Widor's toccata.
Ok, I get it. These improvisations were in keeping with tradition. Still, why did most of them convey such discordant feelings of anger and pain-to an audience of non-musically trained first responders, benefactors, and world leaders? Alternatively, these improvisations could have easily conveyed more listenable feelings of warmth and gratitude while still maintaining the legacy of Notre Dame organist competitions. One final thought: This event should have been about the organ itself, not the performers. As I listened, these improvisations did little to demonstrate this organ’s full capabilities
Put is in other words? What is Ceremony of Awakening of Organ? - Is it a concert? No - Is it a show of organist's skills? No - Is it during Mass? Yes - It is open for faithfull who are not and DO NOT HAVE TO be familiar with hard advanced organ music? YES - could we play something what is considered by majority as a masterpiece not avangard? YES!! We have plenty of it! SUITE GOTHIQUE! Passagcalia C minor, Toccata and Fuge d minor, and dorian, Fantasia and Fugue in f minor (I forgot BWVs sorry) Cesar Franck, Mendelssohn, Widor.. LITANIES OF JEHAN ALAIN! COME OOONNN!!!!! Is there a lack of wonderful compositions? Dupre/Durufle. No. Let screw up everything. OLYMPIC GAMES OPENING ALSO WAS CONSIDERED LIKE AN ART. NOT A BLASPHEMY. For show of of tradition, improvisation and avangard skills you can go for a dedicated concert. Young Kids who where in Notre Dame now are frightened and they will never become more interest in organ. Instead of like me in the past to be delighted by organ sound and try to discover the instrument. Thanks be to God I had wonderful organist. Who could play beautiful works.
This analysis is simplistic. Children are not necessarily frightened by the sound of the organ and this may spark interest in these children. This was liturgical not a concert and none of them acted as if it was a concert. Nothing was screwed up - perhaps one needs to open one's mind to understand and appreciate instead of passing judgment.
@@PolishPianoOrgan no. The repertoire you suggest is not appropriate to the liturgical awakening of the organ: those pieces have no relevance to the priestly invocations. Perhaps if the invocations had been left in the original Latin rather than French translations this would have been easier to understand?
I am embarrassed at your ultra-simpliciy and your extremely limited appreciation of music. I really feel sorry for you that you are so limited that you must express such dribble. These organists at Notre-Dame are phenomenal musicians expressing their God given talent. I'm sorry you are deaf.
They missed an opportunity to bring the beauty of the organ, the cathedral, and Catholicism to the viewers. I am a fan of all three and I had to fast forward through most of it because I found it very uninspiring.
Organ recitals in ND are plagued with the presence of tourists shooting selfies. I'm happy if it can prevent them to come when they will take place again.
As a church or Cathedral organist, you are there to serve God and inspire the faithful. In this case, you can ask if in this case this mission was fulfilled. As for many things, there is always a middle way, and in my mind, I would have expected a little more variety in style to show the capabilities of this instrument, especially considering the top organist who sat on the bench.... The improvisations were great, but I'm not sure they quite served the aim.
Great explanation! For me if people didn’t like the improvisations, I say file it under T for too bad. They followed French tradition and they also had 90 seconds to improvise a piece which is ephemeral in spirit. Of course today we have everything documented on video, so we can go back and over analyze everything to death.
The entire ceremony was exquisite! And the improvisations were perfect in their expression! Those who are ignorant need to apologize for being critical. The rest of us understood and loved every note of it. Perfect!
I told an organist friend in England that the final piece at the end of the ceremony sounded to me like a tone poem - the majesty of the ancient cathedral, the horror of the fire, the collapse of the roof, the crash of the spire, and then the triumphant rebirth of the cathedral in its pristine and breathtaking majesty! Just by listening, the improv told the whole story in just a few minutes. And since it is the premiere French cathedral in France, doing so in the French improvisational style (which was developed more at Notre Dame than anywhere else) was the only appropriate music. My English friend agreed wholly and was equally moved.
I think it would be helpful if I could have an English translation of what was spoken so that I could correlate the musical response to the context. In any case, I am an organist, have studied the repertoire, and would not consider myself "ignorant." That having been said, regardless of how well "informed" or knowledgeable I may be, I nevertheless have preferences. There are pieces of J. S. Bach which I like, and here are some pieces of J.S. Bach which I do not particularly care for. I can say the same for compositions of just about any composer. I find it an affront and arrogantly elitist to be told that if I do not particularly care for something it is because I am ignorant. Not surprisingly, many who are going to great lengths to defend the Notre Dame perfomance (or simply bashing those who are critical), seem to be smugly elitist. News flash -- not everyone who enjoys music is an elitist - nor should they be required to be. I can fully -- intellectually -- understand how the improvisations conveyed a symbolic aspect, I actually picked up that as I was hearing it. Even so, the intellectually-related understanding was greatly overshadowed by the texture and performance. Then there are those who pretend to like something that is distatsteful because they think it makes them appear more sophisticated, and to have a "deeper understanding and appreciation" of something that is "too far out of reach for the common person." One response received from an inquiry into the question, "Why do people pretend to like music that is ugly": Social Conformity: To fit in with a particular social group, people might claim to like music that is popular within that group, even if they don't personally enjoy it. Image Projection: Certain genres like heavy metal or experimental music can be associated with a rebellious or intellectual image, leading individuals to embrace them to project a certain persona. "Cool" Factor: Sometimes, liking music that is considered "weird" or "ugly" can be seen as a way to appear more sophisticated or unique, even if it's not their true preference. Aesthetic Appreciation: While some people might find certain music unpleasant at first, they may develop an appreciation for its complexity, technical skill, or artistic expression over time. Counter-Culture Identity: Deliberately going against mainstream tastes can be a way of expressing a distinct identity or rebellion against societal norms. Important Considerations: Subjective Nature of Music: What one person considers "ugly" music could be deeply appreciated by another, making it important to respect individual taste. Genre Complexity: Some genres, like atonal music or avant-garde jazz, can be challenging to understand and appreciate at first, requiring active listening and exposure to fully grasp their nuances. Authenticity vs. Pretense: While some people may genuinely enjoy "ugly" music, others may simply be adopting the taste to fit in or appear cool, which is where the "pretending" aspect comes into play. Just my "ignorant " two-cents worth.
This is what people do not understand. The centuries old art of French liturgical improvisation was dealt a death blow by the reforms of Vatican II. We only have descriptions of the improvisations of early 20C organists like Widor or 19C organists like Vierne. As the old liturgy was replaced with the hideous childish Vatican II liturgies with their cheesy songs and choruses so the need for inventive improvisations vanished. That is why the art of French improvisation is now lost.
It is not completely lost because it lives through these masters even today but yes, Vatican II greatly diminished the role of organ music in the Catholic liturgy.
Thank you for taking the time and thought to express what I felt. It was indeed a dialogue between the prayers and the organ. Both the archbishop and the btitualr organsts were in essence vessels in this exchange. As one thinks through the moment, it is a rarity in the extreme that an organ is "re-awakened". What does that sound like? In this case I think of the symbiotic relationship the organists have with that organ, especially Olivier Latry
Thank you so much for this statement, beautifully put. Clarifyfing, therefore important. IMO, the improvised versettes were great spiritual music-making.
The improvisations were neither adequate to the instrument nor to the occasion nor to the liturgical texts nor to the audience - so one of the greatest chances in this century to promote the instrument organ, organ music, and even church music in general in our countries as well as all over the world has been carelessly omitted! There is really nothing to defend this fatal failure of Notre Dame's musicians...
If one watched KTO broadcasts every Sunday from Notre Dame Cathedral, one would understand that this type of improvisation is their tradition. There will be plenty of other events throughout the re-opening year to promote the organ and organ music.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying THAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall. To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying Majority were simple folks. For showing skills and tradition exactly. They should to do that in separated concert. Not in front of the whole world. We saw consideration of the whole congregation. NOBODY smiled.
If we dismissed everything that required explanation, we’d still be grunting in caves. Complexity isn’t a flaw-it’s a feature of art that dares to push boundaries. Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring was booed at its premiere; now it’s a masterpiece. Perhaps the problem isn’t the music, but the unwillingness to explore it.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying Sometimes our personal preferences are also limiting -- by our own choosing. Are personal preferences invalid, or "not allowed"?
@@aBachwardsfellow Personal preferences are of course fine. The thing is, this ceremony was not a popularity contest. This particular episode was liturgy. And as such it was perfectly executed.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying I understand. It seems that, it being such a widely-known event, that many people were participating who otherwise would not care to attend such a service, and in addition, those people had expectations of how such a service might be executed which expectations were completely foreign to those who are familiar with it. It is not unreasonable to think that those who are familiar with -- and might expect -- this form of improvisation may have been equally offended if a more tonal, melodic "four-chord" improvisation had been offered ...
Perhaps there should not have been such guests at the ceremony. It was after all for the World and not only for the Cathedral itself (and its organists).
Very good video! For me? Both visual and aural disruption. Maestro Latry said himself that even the worship is not a show, no visual and aural disruption should break the ceremony atmosphere. - (In the belly of the organ of Notre Dame, 2015) Visual: No video wall display of lyrics or invocation both in the spoken language and english translation. Of course, not everyone speaks latin, french, or are catholics. Most are world leaders and businessmen, many are non-catholics. The world nga is watching. Because the Notre Dame de Paris reopening is also the same day here in the Philippines of Holy Rosary Parish "Pisambang Maragul" in Pampanga reopening, restored after 2019 earthquake; led by Apostolic Nuncio to the PH. Lyrics and invocations are displayed on the livestream. Aural: Yes, no doubt they are very great among the great. I am very humbled by them indeed. But I think I can relate to what was told in our religion, "rather than relaxing solemn meditation like in a spa, a bombastic rock and roll instead." I'm not a French musical expert myself, but basic human instincts tell us that their faces says everything. This is what most people point out. Its most of the time too noisy, too stressful to bear. I think others critiquing back that the first critiques are too hypocrite and ignorant of the formal organ music and education is wrong in some ways. At the end of the day, Latry said himself that we need to touch and reach into people's hearts and souls. Yes we can't obviously please everyone. Indeed. They can do better. Organists also like us can finally learn and do better.
The great masters are hence great that they anticipate instead of following. Since that kind of service was never heard of before, so that the music wasn't too. With all due respect, you don't play the past on such an occasion. You play what is the the whole organ world future. That's where breakthroughs come from.
I strongly disagree. The dreadful post-modern cacophony was self-indulgent, snobbish and completely out of touch with the audience that was there. The organ and organist are there to serve the people and glorify God. Any of the great classic organ pieces would have been better, or since the cathedral is dedicated to Our Lady, a hymn to her.
The role of the organ is not merely to please the audience, but to elevate them toward the divine. Innovation in sacred music, as seen in the French organ tradition, is a form of worship, not self-indulgence. Masters like Vierne, Duruflé, and Alain demonstrated that creativity in service of the sacred goes beyond traditional forms. Dismissing this performance overlooks the spiritual depth and creative prayer at its core. True reverence can be unsettling, but it always points to the sacred.
@@florbyjuniot4287 I, like (I suspect) most of the audience didn't hear anything like that. To me sounded more like the background music to hell. I am a church organist and I try to use my (very mediocre) talents as best as I can to serve the Church and the congregation that's actually there, not the one that I would like to be there.
Those who disagree with the host, I don't really understand your problem. Organ literature is very large. And improvisation is part of the liturgy since a long time. You are free to dislike organ music but please don't make it a problem. All the organists of Notre Dame of Paris are very qualified organists and they know what they are doing. Play organ is very difficult and it takes many years of training. Vincent Dubois for example is a very terrible organist. He plays very difficult pièces, the same for Olivier Latry, Phillipe Lefebvre, Pierre Cochereau a d others. Please do not tarnish the image of Notre Dame de Paris organists. It does not make sense. If you don't know what is an improvisation on organ, learn about it, ask the organists and they will explain everything to you.
Your hidden message is that they should have played a Bach Trio Sonata during the ceremony, since that's what plays in the background of your video. You know what they say: music speaks louder than words ;)
Indeed. Too much boorish and ignorant moaning (insufficiently rational to be considered "criticism") especially from Anglo-Saxon quarters. The only serious criticism I can think of is that the versets being played by 4 organists led to a certain lack of continuity. I feel that a single improviser would have brought greater unity & momentum to the reawakening. But there may have been extra-musical factors requiring all the titulaires to play - who knows? Great to hear the organ of NDP back in action.
Not very convincing. You return again and again to the "invocations of the Archbishop" without realising that these are not liturgical, but simply a confection arranged for the occasion. Did the organists react on-the-spot to the Archbishop's utterances, or was it all very carefully worked-out in advance? That section of the re-opening rites of the Cathedral was not strictly liturgical; it was a para-liturgy. Was the purpose of the improvisations simply to respond to these non-liturgical evocations? Might not it be equally important that the invocations should raise hearts and minds to God? Those dissonant improvisations might have been in the style of Notre Dame, but they utterly missed the opportunity to help people experience the transcendent beauty of God through the majesty of the organ. It was like the "heavy metal" genre applied to the organ.
Your reaction betrays a lack of understanding of the long tradition of innovation in organ music, particularly in the French school of the 20th century. Composers like Vierne, Messiaen, and Alain faced similar dismissals in their time, often by those unwilling to engage with anything beyond their comfort zone. History has since vindicated their work as groundbreaking. Dismissing this performance outright says more about your unwillingness to listen than the music itself.
@@florbyjuniot4287 It would seem fair, then, for those of us who choose to remain in our comfort zones to simply remain silent rather than to decry when our comfort zone has been invaded. We should not hope that we might find our comfort zone accommodated (as was fully possible ... there are multiple ways to improvise for 90 seconds ...). To be sure, there are plenty of positions which my be forwarded by those who favor what was done. There is no reason that these should be expected to reasonably cancel the preferences of those whose preferences are otherwise. Neither does it seem necessary for those whose preferences align with the performances to malign those whose preferences are otherwise. I personally do not care for the taste of truffles, caviar, or oysters. I have tried them (i.e. am " ... willing to engage with something beyond my comfort zone") -- several times -- and I still do not like them. I suppose my reaction " ... betrays a lack of understanding of the long tradition of " eating truffles, caviar, or oysters. I'm simply an unenlightened "4-food" kind of person.
@florbyjuniot4287 The only thing betrayed was the divine nature, essence and purpose of music. Imagine if the architecture of the great Cathedral had been reconstructed along similar lines. What an ugly monstrosity it would have been. I'm sure there is a time and place for this kind of improvised piece but it wasn't the re-opening. The organ should have expressed notes of pure joy and exuberance. We will have to disagree.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Vidas! Spot on! So many misunderstandings and so much ignorance surrounding this ceremony and the improvisations, when in fact it was perfectly fitting both for the ceremony itself, and in keeping with the true tradition of Notre Dame and the French School!
Glad it was helpful!
Sadly "ignorance" is not necessarily the only explanation. Even though I give intellectual assent to the fact that the performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the culture and traditions in which it was intended, I can also say that it was not a performance that I liked (enjoyed). For me -- and others, I would think -- mere intellectual assent does not necessarily coincide with personal enjoyment.
We are still left with the fact that MANY listeners -- including professional organists -- also greatly disliked the performance. You may try to rationalize this by explaining that those who dislike it are ill-qualified to express a reasonable dislike owing to their ignorance and lacking understanding surrounding this ceremony and the improvisations
The fact is that this performance had a vastly huge exposure which completely missed the capabilities of 99.9% of its viewers to assimilate and enjoy -- even with extensive "re-training" (as some comments suggest -- "if they just weren't so ignorant they would enjoy it")
We could agree on all the academic points and still not undo the fact that, for however much you try to intellectually rationalize it, while the performance met the criteria of a very small percentage of viewers, for the vast majority of viewers a great opportunity was missed, and considerable harm was done which could have been avoided had other choices been made.
@ Thanks for sharing your point. This debate wouldn’t even be needed if we agreed to the point that their goal wasn’t to please majority of listeners.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying So what -- to your understanding -- was the goal?
@@aBachwardsfellow The organists’ echo chamber is vast and incredibly rigid. Meanwhile, the real world moves on, and just might vote down the next subsidy or renovation project for a church organ after witnessing the brutal representation of “organ music” that was heard at the NDame reopening. For these rigid organists it’s fine because there’s always Hauptwerk- they can play in their living rooms to an audience of one.
The reawakening of the organ, the choice of music played and the style in which it was performed was in the French tradition of improvisation. It was totally appropriate.
I agree with you. Olivier Latry was at Our Lady of Refuge in Brooklyn NY and improvised for the same liturgy it is worth a listen since it was in English. I thought the improvisions reflected the liturgy very well. Don't know if there was an explanation provided did not see any programs. Thank you for explaining.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I bet Mr. Latry improvised differently in Brooklyn than at Notre Dame. I also heard him play live for the dedication of the organ at St. Cecilia Cathedral in Omaha, NE. Much different from Notre Dame but amazing nonetheless.
This is exactly what needed to be said. Let Notre Dame do it the way they do it! They were amazing improvisations and I am glad you posted this video. And to the people who wanted it to be more palatable, shame. It is not YOUR service!
If people want to give feedback on how they viewed the improvisations or any aspect of the service they are free to do so. This video gives one man's opinions. Let Notre Dame do it the way it does it- yes-- and let anyone comment on it as they wish.
@ Comment, yes. Suggestions, no. We were invited in but it wasn’t our party.
@@seandiller963 Suggestions can come only before the occasion. Let's hope such an occasion doesn't happen again.
@davidmorrison2739 Again, that didn’t belong to us, it belongs to Notre Dame. They did exactly what they needed to, showing what Notre Dame does on any liturgical occasion. Suggestions on how to change it in the future to make it more palatable for you or the masses is inappropriate and unnecessary. Maybe instead of complaining, we could teach why it was important historically!
I understand the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation. I also understand the role of the liturgy and the prominent role the organ has. I understand the skill it takes to achieve these improvisations, and the mental challenge it takes to combine all the required knowledge to uphold this in a performance, let alone during such a significant moment like the re-opening of the cathedral.
However, and as always, I've found that whenever improvisation or pieces surpass even barely recognizable music from masters like (for example) Messiaen, of which the majority of his work is almost impossible to bring to an audience (safe for his Nativité du Seigneur, of which I've played Dieu Parmi Nous multiple times on concerts, and few other of his pieces), you're just mashing buttons at that point. And, I know that you can go even further than what Latry and collegues did here, so there's still some margin.
I'm just of the opinion that whenever you listen to music, or audio if you will, from the moment the entire thing is unrecognizeable and unreachable, you're either just playing for yourself or you've missed the point of creating music in the first place. It doesn't help that I stylistically don't like the French improvisations too much to begin with, but no way in hell will the audience have enjoyed most of the improvisations, because it's LITERALLY impossible for them to understand. Basically completely missing the point of reaching the audience or 'elevating them' into heaven (or other non-sensical descriptions).
No matter how intelligent you need to be, how skilled you are, whether you're the best in what you do or not (Latry is among the best), how crucial the traditions are etc... if you cannot reach your audience or even outright cause confusion or disbelief, you've missed the point of making music. Everyone will have a different opinion of what is music, but it's my experience that abstract improvisations almost always leave a negative or confusing impression on the majority of the public.
If we look in the future, nobody will say "oh wow, do you remember that amazing music from the organ at the opening?". Instead, people will or already have completely forgotten that the organ ever played, or might even remember it in a negative way. I don't know a single non-professional musician that comes even close to listening to music remotely similar to the improvisations that were brought here. Nobody in his right mind would ever do this UNLESS they wanted to uphold this tradition or played like this themselves.
Surely, professional organists know how impressive this is. But, that's because we ALREADY know what it takes and we've trained long and hard to understand this music. We cannot expect the same from the audience, and therefore I find it would've been a better choice to tailor the improvisations to the audience both in the cathedral as well as those watching live, rather than play for those 10 professional organists in the world.
So, in review, huge respect to all the organists appointed to the Notre Dame. They are amazingly skilled, and I understand all the tradition. At the end of the day, however, they missed a huge opportunity to put the organ in international spotlight and the (majority of the) audience was rightfully critical and disappointed.
You argue your case very strongly. I agree that for the masses, this did the organ and world-class organists no favours at all. Vidas equally argues very strongly that what we heard was the only possible way the four organists could remain faithful to the great Notre Dame tradition of French liturgical improvisation. It would seem to have been a no win event all round . . . apart from with that very small minority of us who love and understand and respect the tradition that was on display. Still, a huge disappointment for certain. 🥲
EXACTLY!!!!!!
@GamingRevenant THANK YOU!! for putting into such well-grounded words what the rest of us - deemed the "ignorant" -- have tried to express in our simplistic, ignoant responses.
Yes -- here we find the "ten" (or however few) organists who may genuinely appreciate the combined effort of skill, artistry, and tradition to create the performances that were rendered -- clamoring in defense of justifying their elitist position against the common ignorant masses of those who love and enjoy a wide musical experience that is quite outside of their elitist confines.
Vidas has astutely positioned himself to side with the organist "profession" while trying to not too severly trample upon those whose preferences are otherwise.
There is a *ministry* of music which uses music to minister to the hearts and souls of people. Then there is the "ministry of the musician" which seeks to elevate the musician to be the object of worship. How many oganists find themselves in the latter (Latry?) position?
I remember the last improvisation of Pierre just before his death and the fact that it was on an Easter hymn theme. Thanks for providing this context.
Your well-considered points are absolutely, 100% spot on! Thank you for teaching us all once again.
Completely agree with you. The context of the service is very specific in this case. There were some silly suggestions that have surfaced elsewhere on youtube by others suggesting it would be better to play Joy to the world or Widor Toccata or that the music should be more 'accessible'. This is first and foremost a religious service, not a concert. There is a time and opportunity for other pieces to be played to 'demonstrate' the organ, since there were also concerts that were played around those few days at the Notre Dame e.g. For example Olivier Latry and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France played Saint-Saën's Symphony No. 3 under the baton of Gustavo Dudamel.
Just because they did not enjoy the improvisation or the style of music, doesn't mean the improvisation was not appropriate, given it was entirely in the traditions of the type of music played at the Notre Dame, and even if it is not everyone's cup of tea (myself included), they should at least learn to respect it.
And for some people out there to claim that the organists' choice of improvisation was somehow 'elitist' - this is just utterly absurd - they are the ones who need to look at themselves for their 'elitist' attitude, that they think they know better than organists of the caliber of Latry, Dubois and co. despite having 0.001% of their combined experiences.
@nightowldickson
"Just because they did not enjoy the improvisation or the style of music, doesn't mean the improvisation was not appropriate, given it was entirely in the traditions of the type of music played at the Notre Dame, and even if it is not everyone's cup of tea (myself included), they should at least learn to respect it"
(from Google AI): "France has very low church attendance, considered among the lowest in the world, with only a small percentage of the population regularly attending religious services, despite a majority identifying as Catholic"
- perhaps now we know why ...
@@aBachwardsfellowAs if all French organists play in this style on every organ....
@@flipkoos Apparently -- from indications in other comments -- yes. This is the French tradition.
However you have given me rise to hope. Perhaps some ears and hearts are spared in other places. It is perhaps to their good fortune that not all organists are as fully endowed in the art of cacophony as is Latry. Perhaps the more ignorant and simple people with "4-chord tastes" are not subjected to such a constant barrage of dissonance and are able to worship in a manner that is more conducive to their simple faith.
@@aBachwardsfellowcheap shot - all Europe has low attendance. “According to available data, the "average Christian" is typically considered to be a woman living in the Global South, likely from a lower socioeconomic background, and with a younger age compared to the global population, often residing in Latin America or Africa…”
Europeans turned away from Christianity as a living faith long ago.
@@aBachwardsfellow”their simple faith” - how quaint & patronizing. If there’s one thing to be said, it’s that faith isn’t simple. No more simple than love.
Thank you Vidas. I loved the organ at Notre Dame. 🙂 🎹
Thank you Matt!
Thank you for discussing Notre Dame's unique improvisational history. I was blown away by all of the organ music that was performed during the reawakening, and thought that it was perfectly appropriate. It was a mini-history of French organ music of the past 400 years (funny how nobody is mentioning the two baroque-style improvisations that were perfectly tonal, and in the style of Couperin or Balbastre). As to the reactions of various heads of state: that was probably more live, serious music than the US President-Elect has experienced in his entire life. He actively eschews any arts-related activities here in the US. He should learn something...
Mr. Trump has attended numerous state funerals at Washington National Cathedral, and attends a very high liturgical and fine music episcopal church in Palm Beach for Christmas and Easter. So he has indeed heard great liturgical music, but the question about whether he actually listens to it, well.....?
@@sfoster2911 Glad to hear that he's being exposed to some serious music, but as you say, is he listening?
@@ginabalestracci140 I think we both know the answer…..I would guess to him and many other elites it’s just background music….to be done and gotten done with as quickly as possible.
@ginabalestracci140@@sfoster2911 it would be interesting to know what the definition of "serious" music is ....
Perhaps Bach does not fall under the category of "serious" music ....
@@aBachwardsfellow Bach's music is indeed serious, but it isn't a part of the traditions of Notre Dame de Paris.
Have to agree. I was disappointed that each improvisation was too predicable. Can you imagine what Alexandre Guilmant would have done?
The response of the Organists "Improvisations" were very appropriate to the "call" of the Bishop. They were done in the style that is expected and this was for this specific organ and this specific Church in a traditional style - Grand Jeu, Tierce en Taille, Plein Jeu and I can't put my finger on the other five, but they all had structure, rhythm, harmony, contrapuntal and melodic.
Thanks for sharing your refreshing opinion! I fully agree.
You are so welcome!
You have been very eloquent with this! My opinion? This was religious in every sense. All these 8 pieces have recognizable melodies, combine godlike intuition and meticulous skill. I've been listening to the recording over and over again. In addition, both Zelensky and Trump have been faced with assasination attempts - you honestly think these guys are offended by sometimes loud and virtuous organ music? Critics should celebrate the creation of these new heroes! Louis Vierne, Marcel Dupre and most others where criticised when they published their innovative music - now they are part of the standard repertoire. thanks for this video - it's important!
I have listened to the ceremony a good few times. The opening of the organ was incredible.
Thank you!
Incredible horrible.
@@PolishPianoOrgan Did you not hear the light? I did!
The whole ceremony was absolutely brilliant. Doesn’t require justification, however this was all very well said.
It's crazy how this topic divides the organ nation. I see it a little differently. Maybe a mix would have been appropriate, as in my opinion the opportunity to make this wonderful instrument suitable for the masses again was missed. and in my opinion this opportunity has clearly been missed.
I fully understand your point, Markus and I understand the feelings and intentions of some of the loudest critics too. However, the general audience was not the primary concern. The primary concern was liturgy. Liturgically, this type of playing was the only viable option at this place and time.
Maybe it was a 'misplaced' opportunity, rather than a 'missed' opportunity. It's a shame the planned recitals over the next twelve months will not be mass televised globally . . . or at least, any pieces in those recitals that would garner general public approval, as I suspect the programmes will have quite a lot of organ music played that only appeals to the erudite minority and not what would be popularly appreciated by the non-organ masses!
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying
"Liturgically, this type of playing was the only viable option at this place and time."
(from Google AI): "France has very low church attendance, considered among the lowest in the world, with only a small percentage of the population regularly attending religious services, despite a majority identifying as Catholic"
- perhaps now we know why ..
The context of the mass needed to be respected and indeed it wasn’t a recital nor was it meant to be for ‘entertainment’. Olivier Latry is clearly a gifted musician. However, he could have chosen to improvise the responses to the priests invocations in a manner perhaps slightly more harmonically and melodically ‘tuneful’ and accessible without in any way compromising the integrity of the mass. Widor, Vierne, & Durufle most definitely would have improvised in a more melodic way, traditions that go back in history much further than Cochereau. The contemporary post modernist style has developed in more recent history (1960’s onwards), Messiaen for instance is certainly not to everyone’s taste and I certainly wouldn’t choose his music to introduce a newby to the pipe organ. He did right some interesting music which needs a discerning ear to appreciate. Regarding improvisation, I tend to think longer term and the musical tradition of Cathedral improvisation goes back long before Cochereau (himself an accomplished musician but not to everyone’s taste). So in my humble opinion, the Notre Dame mass was great, the Choir were excellent, I just wish Olivier had improvised in a slightly less modernist/contemporary way and a little more pleasant on the ears! I know that’s the preferred style of improvisation in Notre Dame these days but it hasn’t always been that way. We all want the pipe organ to prosper in the future.
This criticism is odd because Latry is NOT Widor, Vierne or Durufle. Everyone knows what to expect from Latry as he has been improvising for decades and there are MANY MANY recorded examples of this. His improvisations and those of the others were stunning. Latry's improvisation depicted the phoenix rising from the ashes - thus the organ was reawakened.
I agree. I know there were people who wanted things more familiar, or perhaps less in the tradition of Notre Dame. Having heard the organists over the years at Notre Dame I always love the improvisational nature of the way the organists opened up the organ to reawaken it in splendid fashion. It was exciting to hear, and well within the wonderful improvisational tradition of Notre Dame. I remember the excitement of past organists doing the.
same way. Bravo for the organists.
(from Google AI): "France has very low church attendance, considered among the lowest in the world, with only a small percentage of the population regularly attending religious services, despite a majority identifying as Catholic"
- perhaps now we know why ...
Playing selections more appropriate to the throngs of people who attended the opening service, as well as the multitudes that watched it live around the world would have been better served by a simple explanation beforehand. The roaring, shrieking, snarling, and utter grating shrillness of the opening presentation completely missed the mark, in my opinion. Even the facial expressions of apprehension seen on the faces of some of the Clergy and some of the guests spoke volumes. 'When will this end?' - seemed to bd the undercurrent thought of many. For highly educated people, maybe this would have been appropriate. I would have rather seen a showcasing of many of the bright young organists who bring much hope and encouragement to this world with their offerings of greatness that I see, and encourage every day. This opening performance completely missed the mark. The fact that an explanation was felt to be necessary at this juncture to explain away the debacle that was the opening - the awakening of the organ - tells it all. Please be more inclusive and encouraging of young organists in the future, who are our hope for a better world. These old dogs have more than had their day. Respectfully submitted.
Playing selections more appropriate to the throngs of people who attended the opening service, as well as the multitudes that watched it live around the world would have been better served by a simple explanation beforehand. The roaring, shrieking, snarling, and utter grating shrillness of the opening presentation completely missed the mark, in my opinion. Even the facial expressions of apprehension seen on the faces of some of the Clergy and some of the guests spoke volumes. 'When will this end?' - seemed to be the undercurrent thought of many. For highly educated people, maybe this would have been appropriate. I would have rather seen a showcasing of many of the bright young organists who bring much hope and encouragement to this world with their offerings of greatness that I see, and encourage every day. This opening performance completely missed the mark. The fact that an explanation was felt to be necessary at this juncture to explain away the debacle that was the opening - the awakening of the organ - tells it all. Please be more inclusive and encouraging of young organists in the future, who are our hope for a better world. These old dogs have more than had their day. Respectfully submitted.
I totally agree and am deeple saddened by the unfair critics of the reawakening ceremony
The improv was the best part. The rest was compromise. Glad Latry managed to get it in.
I was in awe of the music of the liturgy. I’ve spent lots of words on this app trying to defend its beauty. Thanks for this educated and eloquent explanation - not that it’s going make much difference to the detractors.
Explaining history and tradition to ego-centrics who feel like the world revolves around their experiences and should bow to their tastes is often a waste of breath - sad to say.
Most people’s (general public) interest in the pipe organ is marginal at best. But when they hear one, they don’t expect to be offended or assaulted by it unless it’s a haunted house type concert! In this case, they were in shock and many thought it was some kind of joke……I’ve even seen commentary asserting the organists are anti-Trump and wanted to protest by playing in such a manner. Organists know this isn’t true, but it’s alarming to hear such commentary…..
@@sfoster2911 The commentary exposes their ignorance. These folks’ expectations are the equivalent of going to a fine French restaurant and being “offended” they didn’t serve McDonalds-style French fries and ketchup. Their uneducated (and unreal) expectations are offensive - to the chef and the diners who’ve eaten there for decades.
@@nickwilson7697 A somewhat crude and patronizing analogy.
People choosing to enter a fine French restaurant may (or perhaps should) have some idea of what they may encounter.
Millions of viewers from all over the world, from differing nations, cultures, walks of life, with differing levels of understanding, musical experience and tastes, tuning in to view a re-dedication of one of the world's best-known and finest organs, may have been caught "somewhat" off-guard to find themselves being force-fed French "cuisine" which they might never have willingly ordered for themselves. And yes, which they may easily spit out of their mouths with no "cultured pretense" -- not having the elite cultural conditioning to politely smile and say, "It's delicious! Magnificent!" -- while struggling not to gag ...
Very well explained. I have tried, but not as well as you. It is sad that the critics are ignorant of the structure of the mass at Notre Dame de Paris and at other churches in France, and of the culture of its post-Cochereau musical history. Bach was a German Protestant, Notre Dame de Paris is a French Catholic cathedral. Do not expect inappropriate music during the mass. You can hear so many wonderful Bach and other composers' organ works played in concert on this organ before the fire. You will hear more going forward. But if you go to a mass at NDdP (as I have many times), you will hear its post-Cochereau traditional style of liturgical music, with improvised organ versets, interludes, entres, and sorties. I love such organ music, as much as I love virtually all other organ music.
Yes, probably the most critical voices heard such improvisations for the first time in this context and based their opinions on their preexisting knowledge of organ music which was rather limited.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying THAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall.
To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
Thank you, Vidas. You have hit the nail on the head with your measured remarks. Why some others don't get it is a mystery to me. I think it has something to do with not understanding the tradition but I'm afraid there is also some lack of respect involved. A lot of these people should really know better before sounding off.
Thank you Vidas. I couldn't agree more with what you said. There is plenty of time for repertoire, but the great tradition of French Mass music is the improvisation. We heard music in different styles (e.g. tierce en taille) as well as free improvisation, and this is the glory of French liturgical music. The Notre-Dame four are at the top of their games, but so are organists all over Paris. You only have to look at St Sulpice and St Eustache as examples. Yes, not everyone will like certain styles, but this is what happens in France. The music across the reopening weekend reflected the traditions of improvisation and written music wonderfully. The Kyrie from Vierne's Mass was just incredible. This is what happens in Paris every week, and it was on'y right that it should be showcased. If somebody doesn't like what they hear, there is the TV 'off' button!!
Best wishes to you both for Christmas and the New Year.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I still disagree and thought the improvisations were crap.
Greatly enjoyed the Notre Dame organ blessing television event. The musical improvisations are a tradition at Notre Dame and all eight were magnificent. There will be many additional organ concerts during 2025 illustrating traditional styles of familiar music.
The commentary about the tradition of organ improvisation in France is interesting but became distracting when the narrator is walking around the church in circles. I listened to the audio instead and that, to me, was preferable, imho.
Hahaha nice music in the background. I admit. Our students were practicing during that time.
How long, I wonder, before the eight improvised versets are transcribed and published and become a suite in their own right to take their place in the library of historic French organ music?
This is a great question. Since other people too have expressed this wish, maybe the four titular organists will feel the need of this to happen sooner rather than later.
The Great lady organist Sophie Veronique Chauffer Choplin would have improvised music of great beauty!!!!
The fact that the performance requires an apology or any explanation is more than enough demonstration of its total lack of appropriateness for the occasion
Apparently it was entirely "appropriate" for those who like caviar, surströmming, and casu marzu and look down their noses at anyone who does not.
That’s not so. It’s not true that the mysteries of life, faith, love, beauty can just be delivered in pre-wrapped, popularly-accessible parcels. The best things in life take effort: understanding a football match, appreciating a Rembrandt, beginning to comprehend a liturgy, truly loving another. There’s a fine line between quality & elitism, I’ll grant. But everything need not be popular. And Notre Dame is their cathedral, not ours.
Thank you for sharing such a thoughtful reflection on the grand organ reawakening ceremony at Notre Dame Cathedral. It's fascinating to consider how the tradition of improvisation shapes the experience of both the performers and the audience, especially in such a historic context.
Glad you enjoyed it, James! The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What to do when this beholder is uninformed or ill-informed?
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying They go viral.
I enjoyed the ceremony because I understood what was happening. Wasn’t a recital, or concert. It was completely impressionistic and improvised.
HAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall.
To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
It's incredible how suddenly the whole world became experts in organ music and improvisation.
People are allowed to say they didn't like it, but if they want more recognizable music, maybe they should go to a Taylor Swift concert.
🏆🏆🏆
You respond to the critics of the Notre Dame 'organ awakening' ceremony very succinctly, Vidas, and all your points are extremely well made. The improvisations we heard were certainly 'honest' and not, as some claim, self-indulgent - true in their own, unique way to the liturgy, and faithful to the great tradition of improvisation long associated with Pierre Cochereau.
I thought they were awesome . . . but I am not Mr Organ Unaware Average Man.
What saddens me is that the 'disconnect' expressed by so many unfamiliar with this unique French tradition has found fulsome expression in abusive or negative language used to condemn the music that was created, as well as general hostility to the awakened King of Instruments for the cacophony of sound it is accused of inflicting on the wider audience unfamiliar with the Notre Dame tradition! The organ has few enough friends as it is, bearing in mind the great expense required to maintain existing instruments and the shedload of money required to build awe-inspiring new organs. The organ really needs to win over friends, and certainly not make enemies. It already suffers from a general misguided perception that it is only useful for creating horror movie music or Halloween scares . . . and too many people, unfortunately, seem to have been further horrified by the awakening ceremony. Any globally televised event that produces such a negative outcome with so many is unfortunate to say the least. The damage has been done - but thanks for also trying to do some good by redressing the balance: I hope your voice is heard and also understood!
@grahamtwist -- thank you Graham. It is difficult to see where there is a clear-cut "winner" of this event. For a very small minority, the musical improvisations -- which are a tradition at Notre Dame -- were magnificent.
For the world-wide non-Notre dame organ world (now global since the pandemic), the musical improvisations -- which are NOT a tradition for the majority of them were barely magnificent at best -- for those willing to make the intellectual stretch to accommodate consideration of the pieces in their context.
For the rest (99 percent ?) of those UNwilling to make the intellectual stretch to accommodate consideration of the pieces in their context, they are now deemed by the few to be the ignorant.
Truth be told, we are ALL ignorant to some extent.
Some of us are ignorant of the talent, complexities, skills, and traditions involved to make the musical improvisations -- which are a tradition at Notre Dame -- magnificent.
Others are ignorant of the sensibilities and preferences which make many intelligent, knowledgeable people dislike the musical improvisations which are a tradition at Notre Dame, and find them to be unpleasant -- even repugnant.
So I suppose the "winners" are those few who found the musical improvisations -- which are a tradition at Notre Dame -- to be magnificent.
And the losers -- doubly -- are: 1) those who were denied the opportunity to experience one of the finest organs ni the world -- in one of the most famous venues in the world -- played in a manner which would have lifted hearts, minds and spirits to love and appreciate the instrument, and 2) the Notre Dame organ -- which now has imprinted on the minds of millions that it is an ugly-sounding instrument played by pompous and raunchy elitist organists.
Far too many people will not think twice to avoid attending another service or concert at Notre Dame. I myself, personally, am having a difficult time trying to "unhear" the memory of what I heard and to disassociate that sound with the organ at Notre Dame.
Thank you, dear Graham for expressing your thoughts! I'm also worried about all the negativity, even from some professional organists. Since no one else has done a similar video yet, I chose to do it.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying Interesting -- are all professional organists only allowed to have a positive opinion?
What do you hope to do with regard to addressing all the negativity?
It appears that, at this point, all that can be hoped for is damage control. The music was found to be distastefull to a very large number of people. In most other situations -- such as a concert -- the exposure would typically be much less broad, and the typical expected mix of reactions -- favorable and otherwise -- would be confined to that one event and those who attended it.
Here you have a world-wide, highly published event, with -- considering the number of viewers -- likely 99.9% of the viewers *NOT* at all acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation. And of that 99.9% you have quite a number expressing their unfamiliarity with -- and accompanying distaste for " ... the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation."
*At best* all of those of the 0.01% of viewers who DO understand and appreciate what was done -- expertly and appropriately in accordance with " ... the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation" should do -- as Vidas has attempted to do. That is to clearly explain that what was done, was done expertly and appropriately in accordance with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation".
And leave it at that.
Is it really necessary to inform the 99.9% of the viewers who are *NOT* acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation --
-- that they are ignorant?
Even if that is true -- i.e. that they are not acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation -- is it not somewhat presumptious and patronizing to assume that they would even want to be acquainted with the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation? And that they are somewhat lacking should they NOT want to be?
@@aBachwardsfellow professional organists are expected to have much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ than the average listener. This results in less toxic opinion about anything. For example, I’m disagreeing with your thoughts right now but we’re having a discussion and not throwing sticks at each other.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying Yes -- agreed. We are neither of us asserting some level of (relative ) ignorance of the other as some other commenters have done (thank you! :-) .
I quite understand that professional organists are expected to have much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ than the average listener.
As a professional organist, I can give intellectual assent to the fact that a performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which it was intended.
However this does not necessarily mean that I like (enjoy ...) that performance or piece. I have heard hundreds of pieces that were interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which they were intended which I very much DO NOT LIKE (enjoy ...) Perhaps you have heard a few such pieces or performances yourself.
So I could easily say that I agree with you -- and all those who are seemingly of the same viewpoint that, YES! -- based on your knowledge and assessment of the historic context and the tradition of French improvisation, " ... liturgically, this type of playing was the only viable option at this place and time." I can agree with you -- not because I have the same knowledge as you, but because I acknowledge that you have the credible knowledge to make that statement. However, I could also agree with another professional organist who might say, " ... liturgically, this type of playing was only one of several viable options at this place and time". Is that not also possible? Is it not possible that two (or more) professional organists with similar qualifications might have differing opinions regarding the same performance? At best, being professional may mean the ability (professional courtesy) to allow for professional differences of opinion without resorting to being insulting and toxic.
In any case, even though I give intellectual assent to the fact that the performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which it was intended, I can also say that it was not a performance that I liked (enjoyed). For me, mere intellectual assent does not necessarily coincide with personal enjoyment.
Now that we (hopefully) have established a rationale for differences in opinion as professional organists, we are still left with the fact that *MANY* listeners -- including professional organists -- also greatly disliked the performance. Whether they registered their dislike "professionally" (non-toxic) or in terms of raw, visceral dislike, the conclusion is that, whether or not the performance was interpreted and rendered in exquisite conformity to the intent of the composer and culture and traditions in which it was intended, it was greatly disliked by many.
You may try to rationalize this by explaining that those who dislike it are ill-qualified to express a reasonable dislike owing to their lacking " ... much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ."
However, I would hope that we have established that having a " ... much wider and deeper knowledge about all things organ" does not necessarily result in a person *LIKING* all things organ.
Again -- the greater issue is that this performance had vastly huge exposure which completely missed the capabilities of 99.9% of its viewers to assimilate and enjoy -- even with extensive "re-training" (as some comments suggest -- "if they just weren't so ignorant they would enjoy it")
No -- sadly, we can agree on all the academic points and still not undo the fact that, for however much you try to intellectually rationalize it, while the performance met the criteria of a very small percentage of viewers, for the vast majority of viewers a great opportunity was missed, and considerable harm was done which could have been avoided had other choices been made.
So back to your damage control. You have covered your professional bases by aligning yourself with those professional organists who (seem to) genuinely applaud the performance and defend its authenticity -- regardless of how it affected anyone else. I doubt that anyone will hold that against you, so your position is secure.
90 Seconds is sufficient time for an organist to respond to any text in a coherent, tasteful, lyrical, and yes thrilling fashion. What we heard was insulting. It was the aural equivalent of graffiti on the walls. Unspeakably ugly, shallow and horrible.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
At the reopening of the cathedral Vincent Dubois improvised on two Gregorian chants. If you are not a musician you cannot understand what is going on. Charles Marie Widor toccata is based on a Gregorian chant, but once again if you are not a musician you won't understand anything. Most classical pieces of Bach are based on hymns, but if you are not a musician you cannot understand what is going on. So those who criticize organ improvisation need to learn much about organ music. It is very easy to criticize if you don't know what is going on, and these kind of critics don't make sense. Ravel and Debussy music are completely different from Bach's music but these are as valuable as Bach's music. Please stop these negative critics and deepen your understanding of organ music.
Thank you! I suspected there was Gregorian improvisation going on too but I wasn't sure because I watched to broadcast with the commentary and commentators talked through the performances shamelessly so I might have missed some fine details.
I would have much preferred to hear the Widor Toccata.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying THAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall.
To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
@jamespavlock9615 All the songs are based on a religious theme. That's the most important aspect of all these improvisations. The blessing of an organ is always done by improvisations. Everything organists has its own way to improvise. Some use tonal music like Olivier Latry and Phillipe Lefebvre, other use baroque music like Vincent Dubois or Johann Vexo.
@jamespavlock9615 The blessing of an organ does not allow organists to play long pieces like Widor's toccata. They only have 90 minutes for each improvisation. There will be concerts very soon. So you can hear there wonderful organ pieces like the Widor's toccata.
Ok, I get it. These improvisations were in keeping with tradition.
Still, why did most of them convey such discordant feelings of anger and pain-to an audience of non-musically trained first responders, benefactors, and world leaders? Alternatively, these improvisations could have easily conveyed more listenable feelings of warmth and gratitude while still maintaining the legacy of Notre Dame organist competitions.
One final thought: This event should have been about the organ itself, not the performers. As I listened, these improvisations did little to demonstrate this organ’s full capabilities
Amen!!!
Thank you for your thoughts. I found the improvisations inspiring and refreshing.
Glad you like them!
Thank you for speaking about this issue with great clarity and musical insight, Vidas.
Regards, Glenn
You’re welcome, Glenn! Thanks for watching!
Thank you for your eloquent explanation and well reasoned thoughts.
Glad it was helpful!
Put is in other words? What is Ceremony of Awakening of Organ?
- Is it a concert? No
- Is it a show of organist's skills? No
- Is it during Mass? Yes
- It is open for faithfull who are not and DO NOT HAVE TO be familiar with hard advanced organ music? YES
- could we play something what is considered by majority as a masterpiece not avangard? YES!! We have plenty of it! SUITE GOTHIQUE! Passagcalia C minor, Toccata and Fuge d minor, and dorian, Fantasia and Fugue in f minor (I forgot BWVs sorry)
Cesar Franck, Mendelssohn, Widor.. LITANIES OF JEHAN ALAIN! COME OOONNN!!!!!
Is there a lack of wonderful compositions? Dupre/Durufle.
No. Let screw up everything. OLYMPIC GAMES OPENING ALSO WAS CONSIDERED LIKE AN ART. NOT A BLASPHEMY.
For show of of tradition, improvisation and avangard skills you can go for a dedicated concert.
Young Kids who where in Notre Dame now are frightened and they will never become more interest in organ. Instead of like me in the past to be delighted by organ sound and try to discover the instrument.
Thanks be to God I had wonderful organist. Who could play beautiful works.
This analysis is simplistic. Children are not necessarily frightened by the sound of the organ and this may spark interest in these children. This was liturgical not a concert and none of them acted as if it was a concert. Nothing was screwed up - perhaps one needs to open one's mind to understand and appreciate instead of passing judgment.
@@PolishPianoOrgan no. The repertoire you suggest is not appropriate to the liturgical awakening of the organ: those pieces have no relevance to the priestly invocations. Perhaps if the invocations had been left in the original Latin rather than French translations this would have been easier to understand?
I am embarrassed at your ultra-simpliciy and your extremely limited appreciation of music. I really feel sorry for you that you are so limited that you must express such dribble. These organists at Notre-Dame are phenomenal musicians expressing their God given talent. I'm sorry you are deaf.
It was not a show. What was played was in the tradition of this place, and it was the right thing to pay for its reopening. Deal with it.
@jean-xavierbardant1082 I agree! The organists of Notre-Dame are marvelous and greatly talented.
Thanks for the explanation.
You're welcome!
The dogs bark, but caravan moves on!
I’m happy to be a dog.😂
So true . . . and so wise!
They missed an opportunity to bring the beauty of the organ, the cathedral, and Catholicism to the viewers. I am a fan of all three and I had to fast forward through most of it because I found it very uninspiring.
Organ recitals in ND are plagued with the presence of tourists shooting selfies. I'm happy if it can prevent them to come when they will take place again.
As a church or Cathedral organist, you are there to serve God and inspire the faithful. In this case, you can ask if in this case this mission was fulfilled. As for many things, there is always a middle way, and in my mind, I would have expected a little more variety in style to show the capabilities of this instrument, especially considering the top organist who sat on the bench.... The improvisations were great, but I'm not sure they quite served the aim.
What do you know about God''s taste in music?
Great explanation! For me if people didn’t like the improvisations, I say file it under T for too bad. They followed French tradition and they also had 90 seconds to improvise a piece which is ephemeral in spirit. Of course today we have everything documented on video, so we can go back and over analyze everything to death.
The entire ceremony was exquisite! And the improvisations were perfect in their expression! Those who are ignorant need to apologize for being critical. The rest of us understood and loved every note of it. Perfect!
I agree. Too much negativity is toxic and probably hurtful to these organists from the ceremony.
@ they were exquisite! Latry especially. Probably his finest hour ever.
I told an organist friend in England that the final piece at the end of the ceremony sounded to me like a tone poem - the majesty of the ancient cathedral, the horror of the fire, the collapse of the roof, the crash of the spire, and then the triumphant rebirth of the cathedral in its pristine and breathtaking majesty! Just by listening, the improv told the whole story in just a few minutes. And since it is the premiere French cathedral in France, doing so in the French improvisational style (which was developed more at Notre Dame than anywhere else) was the only appropriate music. My English friend agreed wholly and was equally moved.
Yes, I wish they would be transcribed into a suite.
I think it would be helpful if I could have an English translation of what was spoken so that I could correlate the musical response to the context. In any case, I am an organist, have studied the repertoire, and would not consider myself "ignorant." That having been said, regardless of how well "informed" or knowledgeable I may be, I nevertheless have preferences. There are pieces of J. S. Bach which I like, and here are some pieces of J.S. Bach which I do not particularly care for. I can say the same for compositions of just about any composer.
I find it an affront and arrogantly elitist to be told that if I do not particularly care for something it is because I am ignorant. Not surprisingly, many who are going to great lengths to defend the Notre Dame perfomance (or simply bashing those who are critical), seem to be smugly elitist. News flash -- not everyone who enjoys music is an elitist - nor should they be required to be.
I can fully -- intellectually -- understand how the improvisations conveyed a symbolic aspect, I actually picked up that as I was hearing it. Even so, the intellectually-related understanding was greatly overshadowed by the texture and performance.
Then there are those who pretend to like something that is distatsteful because they think it makes them appear more sophisticated, and to have a "deeper understanding and appreciation" of something that is "too far out of reach for the common person."
One response received from an inquiry into the question, "Why do people pretend to like music that is ugly":
Social Conformity:
To fit in with a particular social group, people might claim to like music that is popular within that group, even if they don't personally enjoy it.
Image Projection:
Certain genres like heavy metal or experimental music can be associated with a rebellious or intellectual image, leading individuals to embrace them to project a certain persona.
"Cool" Factor:
Sometimes, liking music that is considered "weird" or "ugly" can be seen as a way to appear more sophisticated or unique, even if it's not their true preference.
Aesthetic Appreciation:
While some people might find certain music unpleasant at first, they may develop an appreciation for its complexity, technical skill, or artistic expression over time.
Counter-Culture Identity:
Deliberately going against mainstream tastes can be a way of expressing a distinct identity or rebellion against societal norms.
Important Considerations:
Subjective Nature of Music:
What one person considers "ugly" music could be deeply appreciated by another, making it important to respect individual taste.
Genre Complexity:
Some genres, like atonal music or avant-garde jazz, can be challenging to understand and appreciate at first, requiring active listening and exposure to fully grasp their nuances.
Authenticity vs. Pretense:
While some people may genuinely enjoy "ugly" music, others may simply be adopting the taste to fit in or appear cool, which is where the "pretending" aspect comes into play.
Just my "ignorant " two-cents worth.
This is what people do not understand. The centuries old art of French liturgical improvisation was dealt a death blow by the reforms of Vatican II. We only have descriptions of the improvisations of early 20C organists like Widor or 19C organists like Vierne. As the old liturgy was replaced with the hideous childish Vatican II liturgies with their cheesy songs and choruses so the need for inventive improvisations vanished. That is why the art of French improvisation is now lost.
It is not completely lost because it lives through these masters even today but yes, Vatican II greatly diminished the role of organ music in the Catholic liturgy.
Thank you for taking the time and thought to express what I felt. It was indeed a dialogue between the prayers and the organ. Both the archbishop and the btitualr organsts were in essence vessels in this exchange. As one thinks through the moment, it is a rarity in the extreme that an organ is "re-awakened". What does that sound like? In this case I think of the symbiotic relationship the organists have with that organ, especially Olivier Latry
still alot of it was no more than a 10 year old pushing keys
Like every toddler can drive a truck, right?
@@flipkoos HA! alot of wall smashing there too!
Thank you so much for this statement, beautifully put. Clarifyfing, therefore important. IMO, the improvised versettes were great spiritual music-making.
Thank you and I'm glad you agree.
The improvisations were neither adequate to the instrument nor to the occasion nor to the liturgical texts nor to the audience - so one of the greatest chances in this century to promote the instrument organ, organ music, and even church music in general in our countries as well as all over the world has been carelessly omitted! There is really nothing to defend this fatal failure of Notre Dame's musicians...
If one watched KTO broadcasts every Sunday from Notre Dame Cathedral, one would understand that this type of improvisation is their tradition. There will be plenty of other events throughout the re-opening year to promote the organ and organ music.
The improvisations sounded demonic. I agree with Jautaealis.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying THAT WAS NOT concert to understand tradition or art of "improvisation". You can lay down on the keyboard- effect would be the same. Whole world watched it. 99% people were NOT musicians there. The best occasion to show them the beauty of the organ music has been destroyed. It is like instead shopping art of Da Vinci in Louvre show them stupid banana tapet to the wall.
To the Critics of the Re-Awakening Ceremony of the Grand Organ at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. " THAT IS ENOUGH. nothing less nothing more.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying Majority were simple folks. For showing skills and tradition exactly. They should to do that in separated concert. Not in front of the whole world. We saw consideration of the whole congregation. NOBODY smiled.
I'm sure JSB heard the same criticisms when he inauguration a new building or instrument. Olivier Latry was improvising i😢n a grand tradition.
4:58 Diane Bish might
hahaha yes
When something needs to be explained and justified at such length, there must be something wrong with it
We are all limited only by our imagination.
If we dismissed everything that required explanation, we’d still be grunting in caves. Complexity isn’t a flaw-it’s a feature of art that dares to push boundaries. Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring was booed at its premiere; now it’s a masterpiece. Perhaps the problem isn’t the music, but the unwillingness to explore it.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying Sometimes our personal preferences are also limiting -- by our own choosing. Are personal preferences invalid, or "not allowed"?
@@aBachwardsfellow Personal preferences are of course fine. The thing is, this ceremony was not a popularity contest. This particular episode was liturgy. And as such it was perfectly executed.
@@SecretsofOrganPlaying I understand. It seems that, it being such a widely-known event, that many people were participating who otherwise would not care to attend such a service, and in addition, those people had expectations of how such a service might be executed which expectations were completely foreign to those who are familiar with it.
It is not unreasonable to think that those who are familiar with -- and might expect -- this form of improvisation may have been equally offended if a more tonal, melodic "four-chord" improvisation had been offered ...
Perhaps there should not have been such guests at the ceremony. It was after all for the World and not only for the Cathedral itself (and its organists).
Very good video!
For me? Both visual and aural disruption.
Maestro Latry said himself that even the worship is not a show, no visual and aural disruption should break the ceremony atmosphere.
- (In the belly of the organ of Notre Dame, 2015)
Visual: No video wall display of lyrics or invocation both in the spoken language and english translation.
Of course, not everyone speaks latin, french, or are catholics.
Most are world leaders and businessmen, many are non-catholics.
The world nga is watching.
Because the Notre Dame de Paris reopening is also the same day here in the Philippines of Holy Rosary Parish "Pisambang Maragul" in Pampanga reopening, restored after 2019 earthquake; led by Apostolic Nuncio to the PH.
Lyrics and invocations are displayed on the livestream.
Aural: Yes, no doubt they are very great among the great. I am very humbled by them indeed. But I think I can relate to what was told in our religion, "rather than relaxing solemn meditation like in a spa, a bombastic rock and roll instead."
I'm not a French musical expert myself, but basic human instincts tell us that their faces says everything.
This is what most people point out.
Its most of the time too noisy, too stressful to bear.
I think others critiquing back that the first critiques are too hypocrite and ignorant of the formal organ music and education is wrong in some ways.
At the end of the day, Latry said himself that we need to touch and reach into people's hearts and souls.
Yes we can't obviously please everyone.
Indeed. They can do better. Organists also like us can finally learn and do better.
I agree with you 100% The organ in the video sounds great as well. Nice Church.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
The great masters are hence great that they anticipate instead of following. Since that kind of service was never heard of before, so that the music wasn't too. With all due respect, you don't play the past on such an occasion. You play what is the the whole organ world future. That's where breakthroughs come from.
I strongly disagree. The dreadful post-modern cacophony was self-indulgent, snobbish and completely out of touch with the audience that was there. The organ and organist are there to serve the people and glorify God. Any of the great classic organ pieces would have been better, or since the cathedral is dedicated to Our Lady, a hymn to her.
The role of the organ is not merely to please the audience, but to elevate them toward the divine. Innovation in sacred music, as seen in the French organ tradition, is a form of worship, not self-indulgence. Masters like Vierne, Duruflé, and Alain demonstrated that creativity in service of the sacred goes beyond traditional forms. Dismissing this performance overlooks the spiritual depth and creative prayer at its core. True reverence can be unsettling, but it always points to the sacred.
You didn't hear "Alma Redemptoris Mater" then?
@@florbyjuniot4287 I, like (I suspect) most of the audience didn't hear anything like that. To me sounded more like the background music to hell. I am a church organist and I try to use my (very mediocre) talents as best as I can to serve the Church and the congregation that's actually there, not the one that I would like to be there.
Those who disagree with the host, I don't really understand your problem. Organ literature is very large. And improvisation is part of the liturgy since a long time. You are free to dislike organ music but please don't make it a problem. All the organists of Notre Dame of Paris are very qualified organists and they know what they are doing. Play organ is very difficult and it takes many years of training. Vincent Dubois for example is a very terrible organist. He plays very difficult pièces, the same for Olivier Latry, Phillipe Lefebvre, Pierre Cochereau a d others. Please do not tarnish the image of Notre Dame de Paris organists. It does not make sense. If you don't know what is an improvisation on organ, learn about it, ask the organists and they will explain everything to you.
Thank you! Yes, learning more about the subject never hurts.
Thank you very much.
Your hidden message is that they should have played a Bach Trio Sonata during the ceremony, since that's what plays in the background of your video. You know what they say: music speaks louder than words ;)
Hahaha you're funny, Raph!
Indeed. Too much boorish and ignorant moaning (insufficiently rational to be considered "criticism") especially from Anglo-Saxon quarters. The only serious criticism I can think of is that the versets being played by 4 organists led to a certain lack of continuity. I feel that a single improviser would have brought greater unity & momentum to the reawakening. But there may have been extra-musical factors requiring all the titulaires to play - who knows? Great to hear the organ of NDP back in action.
Not very convincing. You return again and again to the "invocations of the Archbishop" without realising that these are not liturgical, but simply a confection arranged for the occasion. Did the organists react on-the-spot to the Archbishop's utterances, or was it all very carefully worked-out in advance? That section of the re-opening rites of the Cathedral was not strictly liturgical; it was a para-liturgy. Was the purpose of the improvisations simply to respond to these non-liturgical evocations? Might not it be equally important that the invocations should raise hearts and minds to God? Those dissonant improvisations might have been in the style of Notre Dame, but they utterly missed the opportunity to help people experience the transcendent beauty of God through the majesty of the organ. It was like the "heavy metal" genre applied to the organ.
Good try but your excuses don't wash. It was dreadful. Our ears recoiled.
Our musical taste is shaped by our past experiences.
Your reaction betrays a lack of understanding of the long tradition of innovation in organ music, particularly in the French school of the 20th century. Composers like Vierne, Messiaen, and Alain faced similar dismissals in their time, often by those unwilling to engage with anything beyond their comfort zone. History has since vindicated their work as groundbreaking. Dismissing this performance outright says more about your unwillingness to listen than the music itself.
@@florbyjuniot4287 It would seem fair, then, for those of us who choose to remain in our comfort zones to simply remain silent rather than to decry when our comfort zone has been invaded. We should not hope that we might find our comfort zone accommodated (as was fully possible ... there are multiple ways to improvise for 90 seconds ...).
To be sure, there are plenty of positions which my be forwarded by those who favor what was done. There is no reason that these should be expected to reasonably cancel the preferences of those whose preferences are otherwise. Neither does it seem necessary for those whose preferences align with the performances to malign those whose preferences are otherwise.
I personally do not care for the taste of truffles, caviar, or oysters. I have tried them (i.e. am " ... willing to engage with something beyond my comfort zone") -- several times -- and I still do not like them. I suppose my reaction " ... betrays a lack of understanding of the long tradition of " eating truffles, caviar, or oysters. I'm simply an unenlightened "4-food" kind of person.
@florbyjuniot4287 The only thing betrayed was the divine nature, essence and purpose of music. Imagine if the architecture of the great Cathedral had been reconstructed along similar lines. What an ugly monstrosity it would have been. I'm sure there is a time and place for this kind of improvised piece but it wasn't the re-opening. The organ should have expressed notes of pure joy and exuberance. We will have to disagree.
@SecretsofOrganPlaying Then the organist must have been through some fearful times.
Very well said - your argument is cogent and absolutely right! Thank you.
You're very welcome, John!