Why Judo Newaza and BJJ Look So Different
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In Judo for the people who focus newaza it's a good mindset to have for self defense I think, high energy and lock in a submission as fast as possible, you don't really want to hang out on the ground all day and 'survive' in a real fight.
Inversely though, if you're on the ground and someone is on top of you, you don't want to just freeze and wait it out, you want to get on top or back on your feet
For the people who aren't newaza and submission specialists they can basically get away with having no ground game in Judo which isn't good though.
@@xavierpaquin Unless you're armored and have friends. Turtle up and cover your armor gaps.
@@keropnw3425it’s the same for Bjj and stand up. Takedowns are optional and can be avoided. But arts have holes developed through their rules.
@@keropnw3425Good for the streets
"How do you throw someone that's already on the ground?" Aleksandr Karelin found a way.
Daki Age
Some interesting points/thoughts here - but what I love the most, is just the wonderful interaction between two high-level practitioners of the different styles. Heartwarming. Wholesome.
Great video as usual. You only touch briefly on the dynamic and visual aspects of "modern" Judo. We all know Jujitsu is equally technically demanding, but as a spectator event Judo is streets ahead.
Ok Pierce..
Are you high?
Strange comment
@@ahfmobile dude Bjj is Judo on the ground with focus on subs and chokes.
You must be trolling because there isn’t a judoka on earth who thinks that “spectator” appeal is important.
A breakdown of Tsunoda’s newaza transitions and overall game would be 🔥
I second that
Very timely for me. I am teaching this contrast to a bjj club tomorrow.
In judo the turtle position is a classic offensive position while you're creating or waiting for the jujitsu hook under armpit: you then hold the arm tight under your own armpit and roll over to ura kesa gatame. it's a classic attack you learn as beginner. so you if you're on top and want to grab the turtle man lapel you have to keep your hand high and closer to the lower ribs of the turtle man and far from his armpit so he cannot control your distant arm easily; your objective is only to control the lapel versus hook in jujitsu. Another difference is in judo one can ignore (usually because we're rubbish at!) submissions and rely only on osae komi. I think controls are easier than submissions because those are simpler movements. They do require more physical strength and energy but learning them so you can be efficient is all the art of judo. And my experience as judo player is that jujitsu players are weak at pinning simply because they're only interested in submissions so never really practice controls and their escapes like we do in judo using shrimp and bridge movements
Your videos are really fire lately! 🔥
One thing I'd love to see is to let the camera keep recording after the topic is "over". It's really interesting to hear you guys talk (and Sensei Shintaro usually says something hilarious).
Armed/armored combat you don't want to be on the ground for more than a few seconds. 5 seconds is usually more than enough for backup on the battlefield. Turtle protects all your vitals and closes the gaps on your armor while your buddy stabs the guy trying to get ya..
Different goals. Context is king.
@@sloppyyeggs I'm not sure if you understand armed combat. That's just blatantly and objectively false.
Judo newaza is very fast paced compared to BJJ; but is also less technical than BJJ because of the rules time limit won’t allow to stall and focus on menial details.
Judo for self defense is definitely the way to go.
@@sloppyyeggswhere I live people wear clothing that functions like a gi year round. So, I guess it depends on the local weather.
@@sloppyyeggsIt all comes down to the practitioner, as always. If you learn to clinch, you can apply almost all of the main Judo throws (and all the basic principles you learn) with a simple over-under. In my opinion, throwing people is easier in the clinch, because the off-balancing is kinda there already.
Edit: watch a video titled "Judo throws in MMA (with names)" to see how it looks.
@@sloppyyeggs There're doubles and singles in Judo too, just not allowed in competition. Besides, knowing how to throw in the clinch is a hugely important skill to have, MMA or self defense. Many MMA fighters prefer clinch takedowns over shooting because if you botch a double, you may get sprawled on or guilliotined, and you still have to deal with the guard afterwards. Clinch throws always land you in side control and are way harder on your opponent, less punishable if you mess up too.
total Bull!
Estás en PR? Estoy aquí por un mes y estoy buscando un dojo. Puedes recomendar uno?
Looking forward to your seminar at Inverted Gear next month! Love your videos.
Thank you. Great explanation
Judo newaza is good way to intro into submission grappling and self defense and MMA groundwork.
Excellent video, always enjoy them! Also worth noting passing the guard in bjj is 3 points (at least in IBJJF rules)
Fantastic video. I love how you are bringing Both worlds together, and showing how jujitsu and Judo can coexist, for the benefit of both
Its the same 🤷♂️
@@stillgotyourmom Hm. While (almost) every Judoka can perform a variety of joint locks and choke holds (=basically all that weren't banned by Kodokan), it's quite uncommon to find a "pure" BJJ-practicioner who knows more than a few throws (if at all, in quite some cases; to stay fair, it's equally rare to find a "only" Judoka who could pull - or fend - off submissions even remotely as good as the average BJJ-guy).
@@gehtdichnixan8561 Du kannst Deutsch oder?
@@stillgotyourmom jo.
@@gehtdichnixan8561 BJJ kommt vom Judo und ist eigentlich nur der Bodenkampf davon. Das meinte ich damit!
Interesting. Thank you.
What camera are you using to record ? The picture is so clean and crisp.
Shintaro, you rule!
Flawless, Higashi-san.
3:50 Brian is wrong, there is no point for flipping a turtle and being in side control. You get points for a guard PASS, not for BEING in side control. Also it's 3 points not 2.
I agree with you, but I think they should change the rules so that it should be considered a guard pass. It’s called turtle guard, right? If you get a guy from turtle guard into side bottom, that should be three points!
@@jaehwan123 Turtle isn't a guard, it lacks many traits of a guard. "Turtle guard" is a misnomer. There's only 1 person in history who can make turtle offensive at high level black belt, Eduardo Telles.
@@TheCrystalbrite Again, I kind of agree with you. I think you should get passing points for moving from open guard top to turtle top, because turtle top is a fairly dominant position. But I think most people consider turtle a guard, which is why there are no points. Even Telles himself calls it the "turtle guard."
I would give 3 points if the player on top flips from turtle and passes the legs, the legs are the guard. I think unless it's a low level white belt, it's very unlikely that after being turned over, the player underneath would not form some type of guard. As you say though, this pass is 3 points. Great video tho, lovely points from Shintaro and Brian!
@@jayceebeethe rules are purposely made to incentivize bjj skills though. If you allowed scoring of turnovers then it would be possible for wrestlers and judoka to win in bjj matches without learning bjj skills like passing guard and taking the back.
It’s important to remember rules are also in place to encourage a certain style of play in a sport. So I have no doubt that not giving points to turnovers and reversals from turtle was deliberate.
When I started to watch more Judo, I realized that the newaza scrambles were usually either going to stall out in the turtle position or were going to be extremely frantic and explosive, and if there was a submission it was sometimes done in a really fast and brutal way. It's interesting to see what happens on the ground under the those rules, and how most modern Brazilian Jiu Jitsu rules create a much different kind of match.
There are really two types of competitors in Judo, those who are good at newaza and those who suck and never train it at all. The former are great fun to watch but the latter just go turtle immediately, unfortunately the current rule set encourages this.
In my opinion going into the turtle position should be an immediate shido, the same way that you get them if you're passive and defensive standing up.
So tournament rules changed judo’s Newaza, I wonder if judo training wasn’t centred on rules etc.
judo should recognize rear mount with both legs in and an opponent flattened out as a pin
One of the bad habits I had to train myself out of so to speak when it came to bjj is turtling
Esto que decís es verdad en judo de competición pero en el gimnasio, al menos en España, cerca de la mitad de los randoris que hacemos son de judo suelo (ne waza); combates de tres minutos, o así, en los que no tienes esa límitación de tiempo para trabajar técnicas de ne waza. De hecho, incluso hay algunas competiciones de ne waza.
For me, I think Judo provides more of a realistic general self defense for the average person than BBJ. Judo having the stand up and some groundwork seems like the better value. Granted, any martial art you take should not have a focus on sport,u less that is your aim.
Of couse, the obvious answer is to be well rounded in all areas, but most of us do not have the time and resources to do that.
What happen in BJJ if no one scores clean takeout and no one pulls guard? Will ref start them on mat?
But they are both right American and Western European Judo is so heavy Olympic training influenced that most do not spend much time doing Newaza.
NEWAZA !!!!!!!!!
when I hear the word judo my knees feels pain 😢😮
The only diference, are the rules. Techniques are the same, but tarrgets are differents
I so want to see someone tap to getting their guard passed during a roll just for the hilarity of it lol
can we bring the family back together?
I love this discussion but I think there is a huge part missing having to do with how the guard slam is dealt with. In judo if you are picked up from any bottom position you have to let go. Because slams are more than dangerous. In Jiu jitsu you can get picked up and just hold on. This creates a whole world of guard play that is not available in a judo match and I would argue out in the world as well. Especially if you’re like me 160 pounds
shintaro and brian :)
Would be great if there were gyms called "Judo Jitsu " :D or something and combined both worlds...there are a lot of gyms that do that and I am in a BJJ Gym that does a lot of takedowns but u hear it all the time that there are buttscooter gyms...we have a lot of black belt judokas coming in and they all the same....the ground game is much much different and there are so many techniques they didnt know existed which is weird since BJJ was made from Judo....likewise when i see Jiu jitsu guys just sit down in a tournament i wanna gauge my eyes out :D
well it already exists as Jujutsu and BJJ is ground Judo if you didnt pay attention 🤷♂️
The old name of judo is "kano jiu jitsu"
Correct me if I'm wrong but The same goes for Russia with sambo even though they changed the name like how they did in Brazil with BJJ no offense to Sambo or BJJ but I believe what they learned was pre world war 2 Judo which emphasized as much newaza as they did throwing techniques.
When I learned Judo 10 years ago, it was 50% newaza. My teacher was an old school japanese kodokan guy.
@@catocall7323exactly cat man that's real Judo pre world war 2 Judo
Sambo is a lot more than judo with a different name, the Russian Empire already had several styles of jacket and belt wrestling, and judo was banned in the Soviet Union for 30 years before the 64 Olympics, as well as the major influence from western wrestling styles
@@mikegreen5502tf yall talking about? BJJ is ground Judo period. It should be known by today. Gracies teacher Maeda was a Judoka so its always Judo with focus on ground submissions and chokes.
@@stillgotyourmom why are you mad at me for if you read my comment I said the same thing 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Judo throw won't need niwaza in the streets but in martial arts its a great combo
How about nanatei/kosen judo?
Longer time on the ground allows for more developed newaza. But I think their time in newaza training may still be less than bjj. Kosen might be the happy middle ground. Generally speaking of course.
Judo newaza is so much faster, it has to be
Turtle is a terrible place to be in BJJ… Unless you’re Eduardo Telles
you don't get points for flipping a turtle into side control in bjj
I second that.
in Judo neither.
@@stillgotyourmom This is in reference to the guard pass score in BJJ competition rules. In Judo you've achieved osaekomi in this case so you have, in fact started the clock for scoring towards ippon.
@@GoldenBear2468 Yes but you still dont get points for flipping a turtle. You get the points for a throw wazari ippon for side or back. When it continues on the ground you can turn the opponent around and hold to reach ippon but there s no point for a ground flip.
There really isn't such a thing as "points" in Judo. It is better to use the term "score". In Wrestling and BJJ there are "points" for single actions. In Judo you achieve a score for given actions based on the quality of those actions. (Reference I have Judo and BJJ black belts plus eight years of Folk/FreestyleGreco experience and competed in all three sports).
I don't know this depends in Latin America alot of them practice pre world war 2 Judo what that means exactly I'm not sure but I've been to different Judo schools in Latin America and there classes of sparring or randori I think it's called there newaza randori or class has been as long as 30 minutes to 45 minutes and obviously 30 minutes to 45 minutes of standing throwing techniques and trips.
I think the interamericana ruleset is different from the olympic judo rules.
@@catocall7323 nice cat it's the same
@@catocall7323 but like I said Latin America and eastern Europe practice heavy newaza
Flavio Canto was so effective using his BJJ in Judo because he wasted no time in going for the sub. It was so cool to watch.
BJJ = judo newaza, you are just discussing the competition rule differences.
Is true
It isn't just hard for BJJ to transition to Judo newaza, but it's hard for old school Judo guys to accept. I did Judo in the later 80s and early 90s, and the ruleset back then was about 25 seconds of inactivity before they stood you. Stalling for a stand was much more difficult and, even if you could, you'd be mauled for that time, have less standing time to get a point, and could easily lose by decision. I want back to Judo post 2000s for fitness and couldn't accept the rule change. I'd absolutely maul guys 15 years younger than me on the ground... if those rules didn't exist. The change made the sport far to removed from self-defense for me.
Why don't you teach judo in a way that combines the two then?
@@bluesman4208 Me or others? Me... I'm not interested in running a dojo, nor competing against those already in my city. Others... most people do the sport to compete and all competitions use the modern ruleset because that's what the Olympics use -- that's the reason the rules changed because the rules changes resulted in a better spectator sport. Training young people with old rules/ways would just handicap them if they competed. Maybe there is some old school somewhere which still uses the old rules by anyone under about 35 wouldn't have expected them.
A very martial arts problem. A martial art is developed for a practical reason... it becomes a system of training ... the students want to test themselves or rank themselves to see how effective their training is ... a competition is developed ... the rules of that competition then drive the art, rather than the art driving the competition... an art developed for a practical reason becomes an exercise in competing under a ruleset that makes the art less and less practical.
It all goes back to the ancient Battlefield combat expedient of not exposing yourself to stabbing actions from people around you... that's the whole point of rolling someone over, it's very hard to fatally stabbed them from the turtle position because of the way armor fits. The modern sport Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has become is a hot mess and quite literally a fake martial art
Same art different emphasis...
I mean I understand the sports Application for turtling up for judo.
But in a self-defense aspect it’s a terrible idea.
Not that you wanna stay on the ground generally in a street fight. But if you can at least do something well you’re not getting punched in the back of the head or kicked while you’re down.
That’s why you need to take the best from both arts and put them together to make yourself more complete.
Judo and bjj are both sports. Tutle and pulling guard both aren't smart in a "street fight"
@@lotaonua
Yes which is why I said that you need to combine the best of both.
On top of that there might be some guys that Do BJJ that might consider pulling guard in a street fight. But I think the majority of the practitioners know that asphalt pour concrete will do your back no favors. It’s more of a situation if you happen to get knocked down for a trip over something where the ground game can really come in to play.
And/or if you actually do get the advantage in the other person falls or gets thrown do you have a good way of incapacitating that person from continuing the fight.
Granted if you know Judo The guy might already be knocked out from the throw that he’s been hit by.
But at the end of the day I’m just not a big fan of students getting into the habit of turtle in general. It’s something that can put you at severe risk if done. This is also A criticism I have of freestyle and Greco Roman wrestling when they’re on the ground. They pretty much do the same thing as judo. While folk style wrestling actually trying to get you back to your feet as soon as possible.
Modern Judo isn't about self defense. It is a spectacular, technical Olympic sport. So different when I started so long ago.
It's already been done. Like 400 years ago. It's called Jujutsu. That's the correct spelling. No sport, no nonsense.
Yeah I do both together and they both cover for each others short comings. overall if I could only pick one for self defense id personally pick Judo (2nd Dan Judo and BJJ purple)
BJJ is just Kosen Judo
Cause Judo is way better than BJJ
Gotta tell Brian that long form monologues don't work on the TH-cam generation. Your cuts tried to help, but nobody wants to watch a dude monologue on a mat with sub tier audio.
Lol.
All I watch are 20 minute monologue videos