SOMEONE IS FULL OF SH*T HERE... Sam Harris vs Jordan Peterson vs Douglas Murray on Religion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ค. 2024
- #douglasmurray #samharris #jordanpeterson #jordanpetersondaily #jordanpetersondebate #god #religion #atheist #atheism #atheistviews #exmuslim #exmuslimlive #islam #christianity #debate #jesus #bible #christianity
Full discussion here: • Sam Harris vs Jordan P...
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Douglas Murray.... The void is the native peoples from all over the planet who were getting along just fine with their environment, just fine with their fellow man (short of territory / resource wars all humans face), just fine with morality WITHOUT the Abrahamic / Middle Eastern cults....
NOTHING was gained from these cults. Humanity wasted 1000 years under religious rule.
Let me guess, Peterson says “metaphorical substrate, ethos and historical truths”
How do you converse with a gibberish generator?
I think you have to say though that you lock the door and the thing we associate this POS with is your slack-jawed incompetents using them to kill our troops and the thing we associate this POS with is your slack-jawed incompetents using them to kill our troops and the thing we associate this POS with is your slack-jawed incompetents using them to kill our troops and the thing we associate this POS with is your slack-jawed incompetents using them to kill our troops.
How about that atheist priest Dillahunty, he claims his partner is a woman. He doesn't however know that he doesn't know that he doesn't know that he doesn't know. How does one converse with such a gibberish generator. Peterson is a professional, you evidently are not.
Do your best Deepak Chopra impression
😂😂😂
"My husband is a woman" Matt Dillahunty. Now this is the true face of the gibberish generation!
Peterson tries to confuse and distract his opponents by double speeking and using smoke and mirrors with his language but these guys are too smart for it
No he doesn't wtf are you talking about, your not smart enough to critique Jordan so beat it *ccchk*
Why does Jordan not understand that we can have solid moral teaching stories without believing that those stories literally happened and are worth killing for? Children's books did a great job teaching me morals as I grew up. The Bible scared me as a child and then disgusted me as an adult, but dr Seuss still warms my heart.
Indeed! Even religion would work better if we could all agree to treat it as a work of fiction.
There are groups of people who form a community from their love of Bram Stoker's Dracula, but they don't have to believe Vlad Tepes really became a vampire for it to work for them.
For me, it's as simple as a cell in a larger organism; I am a cell doing my best to function well in the larger body that is my immediate community, which are my friends and family, and larger communities starting with the people I interact with at work, at the store, at a restaurant and so on, moving up to how that effects *their* communities, and our shared communities et cetera. For the most part, when I am kind, helpful, compassionate, fair, reasonable, I am treated in kind, and these communities function better. Whether you're conscious of this or not, this is the reality of day to day life, and it doesn't need be much more complicated than that for me to be a moral human. I'm interested to know what others think of that, what I'm missing or leaving out, et cetera. cheers
The thing is, he does believe that good morals can come in fictional stories. He just can't make his mouth say it in front of atheists for some reason.
@@hamnchee th-cam.com/users/shortsu9bUwmUQE04
@@hamnchee th-cam.com/users/shortsu9bUwmUQE04
Alex has a longer video, probably around 20 minutes long, where you shows JP is, by his own arguments, essentially an atheist, just couldn't find it
SH is the voice of reason in this mash up
“How can we cope without God?” We always have.
Which “god”…Allah, Zeus, or Thor 🤣. People are ignorant
Religion is also how people cope with the absence of God. They just will it regardless. They don’t give a fuck what is real or not. And when pressed I honestly think most religious people don’t really believe. They just pretend to, to themselves and others.
That was short and sweet.
He means how can we cope without the fantasy?
@nts4906 what an ignorant thing to say who tf are you to critique how people live their lives and what they believe... if you gonna claim that then I'll claim neither do people who claim to "be in the wrong body" its all pretend right?
Jordan and Douglas: I'm afraid of "the void", therefore I'd rather believe fiction. 😅
Neither of them actually believe in the fiction. Douglas openly says it, Peterson obfuscates around it but if you watch enough and piece together everything he says he basically admits he doesn’t believe it is literally true, he just believes Christianity as a narrative is mankind’s greatest achievement
Exactly
In Europe the void will be filled with Islam
Is "the void" a reference to the lady garden?
Exactly. Murray was so wishy washy here; He concedes that dogma is a problem but simultaneously enables it by calling religion important bc it's part of history, the genetic fallacy.
SH - "No santa shaped void", nicely put.
Filled with a new dogma
Why do my presents say “from Santa” is he isn’t real?
JP's attempt to stay in the convo is to speak, but say nothing a all.
Just word salad
He always does this
@Heygoodlooking-lk9kg lol yeah
"Ohhh the metaphorical substrate of the ethos on the impact of the biblical corpus". 😅😂🤣
@@jesterc.6763 love it! 😂
That attribute took me over due to unbalanced intelectual operations. Too much reading over too little understanding.
Peterson really isn’t that impressive.
He's good at talking for a very long time to say very little things.
Again, Peterson is drowning in his pool of verbal diarrhea.
I swear I try to listen to the religious argument but I find it very hard, especially when the religious say I’m a sinner for just being myself.
Ikr i felt this way too all he time in church. Nothing in church made any sense to me from childhood to adulthood.
So you are the moral judge and jury for all mankind. Give me a break.. if you are truthfully you would have to admit you are a liar, a thief, an adulterer, dishonour your parents,etc,etc. You are a Sinner you just don’t have the fortitude to take responsibility for your own actions.
God works in mysterious ways
Sinning means to "miss the mark". do you "hit the mark" with every behavior you take?
If you have not achieved a state where all of your actions have their desired effect, then isn't the "person you are" insufficient? In other words, you are a sinner because "being yourself" is an imperfect state, which applies to every human being.
How is a bad thing?
@@totallyshamanistic I fail to see what you are talking about. But that's typical of keyboard warriors - they are for the most part incredibly ignorant and therefore simplistic in their thinking.
but Douglas arent all religions made up by people?
exactly
Then they're necessary.
@@scytale6 how so?
@@shiftymenno It's evolutionary behaviour. Besides, if there's no free will then I think the genetic fallacy is not fallacious.
@@scytale6 that doesnt mean religion is necessary. Plenty of get along just fine without it.
I'm not religious, I don't go to church, I don't participate in rituals. I don't feel like there's some massive hole in my life that needs to filled by some secular version of religious behavior. I've been in churches, temples and mosques and watched people engage in religious behavior and it creeps me out.
Motivated by Love and guided by Reason
And with absolutely no need for supernatural nonsense.
Jordan Peterson, the grand master of word salad. "What dou you mean by salad? - "Green, eatable stuff." - "Well, what do you mean by green?"
This guy is the uncrowned king of dodging the essential arguments to find consense of any sort. Smh.
Did I just hear Jordan Peterson complain that "Jesus, Sam, you can summarize that in two sentences"? He should try that some day.
How come I can always understand and follow the arguments Harris and Murray, but Peterson always sounds like he's just blindly speaking a randomly chosen bunch of words strung together and we're supposed to understand his babble? I'd have more chance reading the chinese dictionary backwards
Probably because you're very close minded and refuse to think outside the box of your preferred ideals so when someone touches on points you detest, it's convenient to claim they're merely babbling.
I'm almost certain your IQ is probably closer to room temperature than it is to Jordan Petersons. Your disagreeing with him doesn't render him a fool.
Probably because you're close minded and refuse to think outside the box of your preferred ideals. So, it's convenient to simply claim someone is just babbling when they're saying things you detest or strongly disagree with.
It's very likely that your IQ is closer to room temperature than it is to Jordan Petersons. Your disagreeing with him doesn't render him a fool. In fact, millions of people would beg to differ with your assertment. Guess they're all delusional, huh?
@@_chosen_remnantNice ad hominem, and unnecessary. Often the ones who attack a supposed IQ deficit are harbouring their own deficits, so you have my condolences. Ironically so, since my own deficit is autism.
The thing is, I get that some are too shallow in their thinking to understand Peterson's sophistry. I also understand that others are too shallow to understand Peterson's sophistry, and they agree with it precisely because they fail to understand it.
As a more apolitical observer, sometimes he makes sense, other times his jibber jabber is too, perhaps purposefully, obtuse to penetrate without being party to the inner workings of his own mind. And since clairvoyance is a rare skill amongst most people, you just resort to assumptions, and if you assume he's more inclined to your ideological world view, you're more inclined to agree with whatever bollocks he speaks.
I sadly share the sophistry with Jordan. It's a strange affliction, to think so clearly yet to express those thoughts, the English language suddenly finds itself lacking in words to express complex and nuanced ideas and feelings in a succinct manner. Thus verbosity takes over as you try to find the words to cause that click of understanding in anothers mind. It's also because he bullshits a lot to avoid losing subscribers and clout due to admitting that he doesn't actually believe in any deity in a literal way. He knows how fickle his curated audience is and he's careful to maintain it. That is no more evident than when he talks psychology, a field where his and his audiences political ideals are separated, thus he can speak far clearer and without fear of the fickle nature of political tribalism.
Google the phrase "Koi No Yokan", other than the title of an excellent Deftones album, it's also a beautiful Japanese phrase akin to love at first interaction, something like knowing you'll fall in love with another before you've physically met them. That goes some way to displaying what I mean about English occasionally being a bit clunky, and can be taken as a point in Jordan's favour. That is if you're willing to completely ignore the tribal politics he engages in, he is a part of the Dailywire afterall, his bank balance is now thoroughly tied to being on the right political side. That cannot be ignored.
@@_chosen_remnant - It's very common for fans of Peterson to claim that anyone who doesn't understand him must simply be stupid. Yet those same people never seem to be able to articulate their own understanding of what Peterson is saying. I guess, by their own estimate, they must be stupid too.
Watching Jordan dance around the question "Do you believe in God?" is very instructive. Hearing him equivocate over the meaning of the word "do" really puts his credentials as an intellectual into serious question.
It's like he's swallowed a couple of tins of alphabeti spaghetti and now he's puking it up
I bet that Peterson has in his contract that he gets paid by the syllable.
Beautiful! 😂
There is only a void if your personality requires one. Just live a good life without being sheep.
Religion like sex should be kept in your home and not on public display.
I would like to sit down with Mr Jordan Peterson and Douglas Murray.
Nobody in my family has been a theist, for the last several generations. We trace our heritage to Nathan Hale, and back to before our ancestors were attacked by Christians and had to leave our lands in Northern Europe.
We have had morality the entire time, because we are group-oriented-primates that have to function as a social group to survive. Religion is just Nonsensical Gibberish that other people had.
Moder Morality was NOT the result of religious values, it was the steady Rejection of Traditional Beliefs in favor of Moderb Morals based on Empathy towards other people.
Seriously, look at any significant shift in moral awareness over time. Slavery, women's and minority rights, the treatment of homosexuals and trans people.
At the time the change was occurring, it was a Rejection of Traditional Interpretations of religion, in favor of "modern" values. Christianity didn't lead the way, it literally fought against every change that we needed to make.
We arrived at Modern Morality, by Rejection of Traditional Belief systems. The further from Religious influences in Society, the more Moral we have become.
They WANT their beliefs to be the reason, so they don't look at the situation objectively. They don't want to accept that the only way we got to where we are, is by rejecting the beliefs of past generations.
Religion isn't the cause of the change, religion is the chains we have to keep cutting so we can progress.
Thanks for this clear articilation of the actual record of moral progress. I'm surprised we haven't heard it laid out this clearly elsewhere.
All but one of my family was/is also atheist & it was a hotbed of narcissism, abuse & self-righteousness that any corrupt church is also full of.
They also thought that they were good & decent people, even while throwing their kids down the stairs for not doing the dishes before bed, exposing them to rapists & AIDS-infected pedophiles because it made them feel morally superior as allies to those who would destroy their family, etc.
Most atheists sweep their negative family experiences under the rug & moan on & on about religious people that have little to no effect whatsoever on daily life but exist as a convenient scapegoat to pin their own & society's problems on.
If you actually give a damn about what's right, then you wouldn't be supporting the lies & grooming behavior of the lgbt+whatever "community" that has done NOTHING good for western society (or any ancient society for that matter) but destroy it from within just as any jihadis do.
Atheism is hanging western society like a necklace of corpses & is barely any different from islam.
Both are the most genocidal, totalitarian ideologies in history & have only made the world worse, not better. Science is founded by & is the realm of deists that the atheists are constantly trying to corrupt & usurp for their own ends & it's NOT advancing humanity, but the goals & power of a tiny handful who want to rule the world & grind everyone else under foot & rule over a world of ashes.
Much of modern morality is available because of technology, not because of your high-mindedness and willingness to disregard "old" ideas.
Can't find strong LGBT representation in a forest-dwelling community of 250 people? It probably has more to do with their fear of extinction than their concern for "living your truth."
In this imaginary community, there will probably be a division of labor separated by gender. This division of labor probably has more to do with observable physical traits and natural bodily functions that dictate how we spend our time than "social chains."
Material comfort has diminished the harshness of nature, and the shackles are mostly nature, not Christian ideology. Technological advancement gives you the privilege to throw away those shackles, but that doesn't mean those constraints are gone. You just ignore the inconspicuous constraints, or you may not even know they exist, and claim you are superior to your ancestors.
If you don't believe me, go live in the woods with a group of people. Watch how fast your priorities realign with a traditional way of life.
@@totallyshamanistic I grew up in very rural Alaska, I didn't hear about the Christian god until I was 13, I read the Bible and was very confused that people would believe such nonsense.
History demonstrates my point for me, the further we get from the Traditional Beliefs of ancient cultures, the better off we have become.
This is because, religion doesn't teach Morals, religion teaches Obedience to the Mythology. Christian "morals" aren't actually "moral" any more than Scientologist "morals" are "morals"
Each group has a code of behaviors to be accepted as part of the group, and religion mixes reality with fiction to create its code of behaviors.
@@13shadowwolf clearly you're not one to be persuaded, you have a narrow view of things, so I won't waste your time. Since there is no discussion, I'm left to critique your perspective. Nothing personal, but you sound foolish.
1) people study the Bible their entire life and never come to fully comprehend it. Why should you have perfect knowledge of it after one read? I wouldn't consider you a serious thinker on the matter
2) "history moves in one direction". This is clearly not true. Currently, in Haiti, embittered gangs are eating the bodies of their rivals. As time moves forward, Haiti is getting worse. Why can't this be the fate of any country? What nihilistic or scientific principles of belief reign in this kind of behavior? How will you get all people, across all time to agree to the standards you prescribe?
3) "only about obedience...". This is the opinion of someone that has not participated in any religious community. It's a ridiculous, ignorant, and closed minded take
4) "religion is not a perfect descriptive system of reality". Yeah..... Maybe. What's your alternative? There is no system of ideas that perfectly describes reality, but you choose to hate on Christianity. Science is unable to describe essential concepts like goodness, but you don't throw all of science away. Ironically, most people understand less about particle physics than morality, but are more willing to disregard the importance of moral law which affects every relationship in their life.
Religion has it’s place just keep it out of politics and nation building.
There is nothing more evil in the world than religion, not faith but religion.
JP and Douglas are wrong, here. There is no void to be filled after religion is gone. There was never a void to fill. Religion just inserted itself where it didn't belong and science took over later on. Religion failed as an explanation of the universe, which science now does for us. And science doesn't require mysticism, ceremony, ritual, or pageantry to do its job.
There is a void. Some feel it more than others. Some fear it more than others. It drives people to do horrible things to themselves and others because they are terrified at the realisation of cosmic indifference. If nothing matters, then why should it matter
Quite simply because it doesn’t - that’s the point. There is no Judgement Day and “cosmic indifference” is surely the logical conclusion that must be reached after our last 100 years of technological progress.
@@dominitrov "The Christian resolve to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad.", Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science. Leatherback turtles experience the void you mention. They swallow plastic in stead of real food, thus leaving them hungry, eventually starving to death. Christianity is more subtle in that when it too feeds people with plastic in stead of what we really need, it does so in combination with convincing us that what we actually need is evil and harmful so we avoid it thus leaving us with a void.
@@stevelocke3667 actually the logical scientific consensus has been the universe is so intelligently designed, there must be a intelligent designer.
@@dominitrov Untrue
It's always strange to me how people can regard religious traditions as somehow being immune to the same modernization as all other types of ideology. Religious thought in the world isn't some fiber optic line to the past... it's an ancient facimile that's used as a cudgel for modern religious though. Douglas Murray's point about relying on an ideology that has worked for us in the past is problematic for a lot of reasons, but the reason that stood out to me is because it assumes religious ideology isn't a product of modern thinking... that it's some unchanged relic that we've all been doing the same way for the past 2,000 years. That's just a ridiculous way of viewing any kind of ideology.
because the problem is that you can become unmoored, plus the biiggest religions rely on old text, not new ones.
@@Kamfrenchie yes, that was the point Douglas Murray made.
The moment they admit religion can change, they realize they don’t need it at all. The entire point of religion is unchanging absolute truth granted for free to anyone without effort. That lie is the entire point. If it can change or is subject to reason and logic, then it ceases to be religious and ceases to have the appeal of the lie. We have never needed religion as a species. It is for the slowest to cling to as they fail in this life. It is their cope. Religion will not last on this Earth.
they should go into the library next to Zeus and Thor as man made fiction
A rare occurrence of Douglas being full of it. Jordan always is.
interesting how people who listen to the same ideas come to completely opposite conclusions...
Douglas seems to have missed the point that new religions aren't springing up in the absence of existing religions, but to enhance or supplant the older religions - as Christianity did a while back, Mormonism did to Christianity, etc.
It isn't discarding dogma that has led to the 45,000+ denominations of Christianity.
Jordan just always misses the point; I've realized they only have him on here as a kind of comic relief.
Religion doesn't replace or fix tribalism, it's just another way to divide society.
Jordan is only wrong on religion, his psychology lectures are gold
@@elmango705 how do you know? if his approach is similar, just look for broad patterns and make some connections, what is there to safeguard against spurious correlations? He has no epistemology.
@@HS-qv3dh what are you talking about? I literally do not understand what point you are trying to make. All I know is that I became a better person after listening to his lectures and many many people share the same experience as me in that regard. Considering this, I can look past his irrational stance on religion…
Why does it have to be that if we stop worshipping the stories it is automatically the extinction of morality. Sounds stupid 😂
what replaces the stories? what story of unification do you have to offer?
Using rationality rather than dogma to make your decisions is always best, even if the result is not 100% successful.
Only if you have a good foundation to start from and have wisdom and intelligence. Most people can’t figure things out completely for themselves and people who tend to throw away all tradition often end up derailing their lives in ways that they only realize was a mistake when their much older and it’s too late
The question is does Jordan Peterson know he's full of it, or is he genuinely lost in his own word salad?
Why do we need anything to replace religion? It's not been any help, only hindrance to modern society..
Do away with religion, develop a social contract, nothing about some figment of imagination leading guiding us. Let's stop these imaginary friends, we are suppossed to be adults, not children..
I think you’re underestimating the importance of stories in our cooperation as violent prone sapiens. Religion has enabled the cooperation of millions, albeit often for bad. We fight alongside comrades and kill for king, for country, for money, for the united workers… all of which are stories. Yes, religion is a fiction, but so is the company that you work for and the deed to the house that you own.
exactly
This is exactly what the Enlightenment project in the Western world has been ever since Plato and Aristotle wrote their secular philosophies. They demonstrated the power of real knowledge and it’s superiority to myth and faith. The religious have been living terrified and fighting endless wars against the force of secular Western Enlightenment because they know it is their death knell.
Like it's been said, science will fly you to the moon, religion will fly you into tall buildings
I admire SH almost as much as the late and great Christopher Hitchens. Science and nature are the only things I believe in. SH 'live a life motivated by love and guided by reason' not a bad way to live.
it’s impossible to honestly live a life motivated by by love and guided by reason without the transcendent
@@ewencameron4269without the transcendent what?
@@Heygoodlooking-lk9kgDeepak Chopra has the answer...hahahaha. Almost passed out laughing from that one.
@@ewencameron4269 I've done that Ewen, ex-muslim here 👍
"You have nothing offer: not that I'm trying to minimise your offer."
Oh, well thanks, Jordan 😂
It's true. Sam offers nothing but Holocaust shame. That's his only reason out there.
Same as Jordan is pretending to believe in god to get more opportunities to speak and fill his pockets
In what way would a leap into rationality not work and a leaping into irrationality work? Ever? Absurd. Following irrational paths, ones that violate rational thought, would almost certainly end up in disaster and collapse.
Where following the rational process would have a significantly better chance of success.
When a person does good in the face of radical evil, with no real hope of the good succeeding, yet still chooses to stand up against radical evil even if it knowingly results in one's own martyrdom, is this rational or irrational behavior?
@@johnnytass2111 Interesting question. "Good" being subjective, it could be rational or irrational.
The master of word salad
The first 11 seconds and the first thing JP does is throw out a hasty generalisation, and then crux his whole position on a slippery slope. 🤷♂
What worse, he says the solution to this slippery slope he's perceived, is Christianity of all things.
What JP and Douglas call “the void”, that’s what I call a gigantic pile of BS of an astronomical scale that I, as an atheist, have to dig through every single day.
The only thing I believe is that no matter how hard you try your never going to completely get rid of religion because as soon as one falls another one rises it's literally been that way for centuries.
But keep in mind, there was scientific ingnorance for centuries, no internet, no communication technology and no 21st century knowledge.
@@jesterc.6763 honestly mane, you are for sure right! That's why we had books to depend on. 😂
Perhaps you can name a recently invented religion? BTW, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not count.
@@grahamhodge8313 believe or not there is literally a Church dedicated to Beyonce 😭 🤣
@@Hwkanimations Yes, it has been around for 10 years but is about as serious as Pastafarianism.
Religion is poising EVERYTHING‼️
We should not take religion away from people whose sole reason for being moral is the fear of hell.
(You)need the fear of eternal suffering to be a good person? Very sad.
You can have it. Put it in your pocket and pull it out and play with it when you wish. Just stop trying to make laws based on your “Santa void”. That is all.
@@emiliog.4432Who wouldnt want to avoid eternal suffering though?
@@ollep0lleeveryone but there isn't eternal suffering, when we die, there is nothing, simple really
All religions cultures and belief systems work just fine for decades on end until they meet each other and find out they have been lied to.
Sam...the voice of reason.
Reason without Purpose or Meaning or Value.
WTF@@briansimerl4014
@@L-Del I think nobody has a complete manual for how to be moral and ethical fully in their minds. Having extra guidance beyond one's own conscience is advantageous. May as well not read any books with that logic.
@@L-Del the serpents are in the temple and indeed it is an abomination.
"The Jesus smuggling I was worried about" hahaha 😆 😂
Meditation is good for your head, heart & daily life. Sit, close your eyes, breathe slow & deep. Self peace ensues.
Harris : "what specifically are you afraid of?"
Douglas : "all of it!!!"
Not everyone is going to make it. We can either sacrifice people who don’t fit some subjective standard or we can sacrifice people who cannot cope with objective reality. I’ve made my choice.
Rationality and religion are constantly mistaken. Beleive what you like, but do it on your own terms. We all find out in the end.
If people come up with new stories, then it's not a void replacing religion.
At the unfortunate demise of Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris became the world’s leading public intellectual.
"We can't cure cancer because other cancers keep popping up"
Are you fing kidding me??? We are afraid to say religion is not true cuz we dont know what will happen???? Totally bs
Jordan = 🤡
I find it interesting that Peterson talks about what comes to fill the void : tribalism based on racial, ethnic and gender identities.. And yet it's not like bigotry based on those axes are absent from highly religious people. Or even particularly reduced, for that matter.
The fact that a group of civilised people can discuss opposite positions is all I need.
Yes hindsight is 20/20 but it is so funny to look back at this discussion knowing about the extreme faults of this world renowned atheist
This is part of a much longer converation between these three and it is all utterly brilliant. Agree or disagree with any of them, they are all highly educated, hightly informed and great thinkers and the way the problems of the world get solved, be they practical, mundane or moral, is through informed, and respectful communication.
When people talk about religion being embedded into our psyche and having evolved with us but then want to keep it locked into a book written a thousand or so years ago and since translated by, of all people, the king under whose reign the slave trade started.
The argument Murray makes of new religions being developed and filling the void if current religions no longer exists proves the point that religion is man made
“Why can’t atheists replace all my delusions with more fun ones” is one of JPs more ridiculous points. 😂
People who could think beyond their faith never believed in any God.
An agnostic would disagree.
Have you got the hard science on that (statistics)?
@@poopoppy An agnostic doesn't believe in any God or 'no God' at all either.
I like Sam Harris but he dose have the inability to acknowledge the limitations and failures of rationalism that where most powerful in the 20th Century inspired by the French Revolution. ‘ Intelligence tends to fall in love with its own creations’ and becomes incapable of seeing beond its own horizon so just when in power without feeling the need to correct for error. Mao and Pol Pot being the obvious examples of rationality taking to it obvious conclusion.
When no one here knows God. God who made a place for the Believer and the disbeliever. Both valid. Both absolute. Both inherent. Both to be necessarily accepted. And clearly those who argue against each other for only one true place, neither know God at all.
Douglas brings up that Woke is the "rational replacement to religion based on pragmatism" that Sam has been searching for all along. Lol. What a troll by Douglas to Sam. Bravo.
I'm not hearing any full of sh*t here. I'm hearing people with different fundamental positions, opinions, solutions, etc. Nobody on that stage has solved religion, sociomorality, etc. They're debating their ideas and positions. And the positions aren't black vs white, so it's not easy to have a clean point v counterpoint conversation. That doesn't mean any of them is full of sh*t.
I'm not a JBP fanboy by any means, but I'm really hoping Pangburn isn't viewing "show JBP at his worst so that we can trivialize him" as its modus operandi now. To the extent all that is JBP is a net problem for us as a species, he's not in our top 100,000 problems.
Huh? You're "not hearing any full of sh*t here"? Perhaps (for some mysterious reason) every time Jordy Peterson opens his stinking mouth the sound on your phone, computer, tablet or whatever cuts off. That can be the only reason for the sound malfunction you are experiencing. Suggest you purchase a new device or devices. No "Thanks" necessary. Just happy to help.
I was quite surprised at this clip as well. JP actually made a valid point which was not his usual gratuitous gibberish word salad for a change.
Taking religious beliefs away tribalism reappears wrong tribalism coexist with religions through ethnicity, culture, gender identity social classes or tribal ranking and or tribal functions…. Tribalism and modern society have all their dogma
Yes
"Re" means "back," "ligio" means "to bind." Re-ligio means "to bind back," ostensibly to a creator. Belief: lief; means "to wish." For our beliefs, does our "wishing make it so?" My guess is no. It's likely that we're better off doing our best to think for ourselves, instead of relying on adhering to other's dogmas. Jordan's irritation within this conversation seems to stem from the polite challenges to his apparent sweet tooth for dogma.
So basically Peterson is pleading to let people believe in any fairy tail to keep them happy and mind their own business.
Yes!!
I am frequently struck by the starkness of contrast between JP and anyone else who shares the stage, Jp presents an uber sincere word salad that i think no listener could summarize…. While his counterpart makes a clearly understandable presentation… albeit that presentation lacks the inpeneratable gloss of a doctoral dissertation
It’s very strange how Jordan and Sam have a lot of respect for each other, but their audiences seem to think the other is an imbecile. I think the first mistake an atheist can make is to assume they’re smarter than their religious peers. It’s no different than a religious person believing they are morally superior to an atheist. I don’t think Isaac Newton’s faith in God seemed to dim his wit any. So maybe we shouldn’t take the intellectually lazy route of assuming anything that a religious person says is nonsensical.
Jordan Peterson is truly a master at speaking so many words which have so little meaning.
< Motivated by indifference and guided by empiricism.
I don't care if it's true, false, or inconclusive.
I only care if you can prove it's true, false, or inconclusive and if I can repeat those results.
Religion can't even agree on the hypothesis.
I believe that religions should cease. We have to believe in ourselves not some invisible man in the sky. If HE spoke to ALL of us I would support him 100% BUT he only speaks to a select few and the last of those was about 1500 years ago. So in reality religion is devised by those ‘Prophets that claim God spoke to them and only them. More evidence of a man made myth could not be demonstrated.
Please read the Books of Zechariah Sitchin. Starting with his first book called “The Twelfth Planet” It is not necessary to believe his discoveries or pray to a new deity. But his books reveil a far more plausible explanation of the beginnings of religion.
No one hates peaceful religions, they hate the violent false religions. Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, blessed the poor, calmed the storms, brought Heaven down. He was against killing and violence, lies and oppression. What ex-Christians hate is growing up in a false, anti-Jesus church but instead of admitting that they fell for the lies, they attack God instead.
No it shouldn’t . Some people need it. But Islam on the other hand … they need to fix that cult
As a former Christian who has had some years to think about it .....
In my opinion I do not like the post religous world at all.
I would mever want a theocracy or something like that but the dying of the transcendent view of man has been catastrophic.
The state of morals and basic truths in this modern world is absolutely terrifying...
Yeah, there has been no progress at all...hahahaha. Wait wasn’t slavery accepted by religion?
Yes, and that is but one example.
@tonyfanfarone People of every belief came down on both sides of every issue.
That's not what my point was addressing anyway.
It's not about "moral evolution ", it's about the fact that less and less people see man as a "special" being, and that is not good, I think.
@@briangueringer3673 you may have a point about less and less people, but what people?
Those scientists searching for other worlds that may support life have a huge appreciation for how rare and precious the life on this planet might be.
@tonyfanfarone The common people who no longer have a "right and a wrong" but everything becomes relative.
The same people who think it's wise to give sex changes to little kids and the sane people who will show up at a women's rights protest but can't yell you what a woman is....
Saying scientists who study "X" appreciate the universe is not going to get you out of the problem of the death of transcendent thinking.
On a side note if Neil Digrass and Bill Nye are anyone you are thinking about....
They are as morally warped as they come...
..
@@tonyfanfarone You mean those scientists who don't know what a girl is?
Because Tyson and Nye have zero clue...
I think anyone trying to prove God doesn't exist, doesn't really understand religion. In fact doesn't really understand much about the human race or society.
"Modern thinkers assumed that science would reveal the universe to be ever more random and mechanical. Instead, it has discovered the unexpected new layers of intricate order that bespeak an almost unimaginably vast master design."
"The picture of the universe bequeathed to us by the most advanced twentieth-century science is closer in spirit to the vision presented in the book of Genesis than anything offered by science since Copernicus." - E W Theuling
What exactly do you find to be compelling about “intelligent design”?
Also, help me understand… why is it that folks such as yourself will use science to bolster your claims or as evidence for a higher power but in the next breath rejecting other claims about the world made by those same scientists?
Cool story, but that doesn't support a designed Universe, just an orderly one. A universe that does not require outside intervention to work is what would be expected from a Natural universe. If there were gods, that would be unnecessary.
Best thing I learned in therapy is that "Permanent happiness" is not a thing, it's a completely unrealistic goal.
This is why religious zealots like JP are so fucking miserable...they are promised permanent happiness by their fairy tales...
Auguste Comte had a brilliant replacement for traditional religion. Sadly it didn't expand enough and has only 1 "church" in Brazil.
Yes. Next question.
Douglas states that if we abandon religion then the resulting void will be filled by other "religions". It's just a fact...where's the argument?
Jordan complaining about The Void (tm) like there's not hundreds of millions of atheists (if not billions) worldwide who have absolutely no problem regarding this The Void (tm). It seems to me like he's grasping at bogeymen trying to defend his crumbling religion.
At the end of the day, people are going to be people. Religious or non-religious they'll be who they are regardless of their "metaphorical substrate." Also, the quote comes to mind "Good men will do good, and evil men will do evil. But for good men to do evil, that takes religion." (approximation on the quote, I can't remember the exact wording)
Even the so called Hindu presidential canidate said, "God is real." Remember Jordon, "be precise in your speech." God is "the One Male Creator Being." No provable God. However, all for the inevitability and goodness of the religious process---think about it.
How did Petersen ever become popular...he says nothing with thousands of words
All three never mention a religion that is so vast and has so many incredible teachings, not dogmas, like yoga and the science of ancient natural medicine Ayudervada. It's not even a religion with no do's and dont's.. Its a way of life... But well, live and learn..
Its very easy. God exist!!! Only in your head. In your words. As long as you live. Its admiration of life. Thats all.
I suggest it's the video clip headline author.
Jordan is so far out of this depth, that he doesn't even know.
You cannot compare Jesus Christ to any other religion this is where everybody goes wrong if you understood Jesus and see the world we're living and know that he is real
The religions that were able to adopt to current times like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism are actually needed by the society. I totally agree that void is bad and the human beings have a need for faith in times of hardship and uncertainty. I am going to argue that even atheists enjoy their position by having a proximity to the religion and it's values and can always rely on it's safety net. If they don't, they simply become evil and dillusional. Unfortunately, modern day I-s-l-a-m has some work to do as it lacks tolerance for other religions and high regard for the human life as an ultimate gift from God or mother nature depending on your belief.
We can be taught morality without religion.
Taught early how one needs to think of your fellow man, so to speak, do not do onto others what you don't want to be done to you. Life is sacred, we only have one life, having difference in opinions is normal and is good, learn what's good from others side, and find a way to co-exist. If they don't listen to reason, leave them be, so long as they pose no threat to you or others, waste not time on their stubbornness, it helps no one.
Strive for success in your life, to find what makes you happy, be it having a family, maybe it's a big group of friends, doing beautiful art, it's all up to you. We got to make the best of what we have here and now. Be thankful for this micro chance we had to live on our planet, that our species managed to survive this long, for us to be born, and experience what we have here and now, to get the chance to live and breathe.
Fear not a deity watching over your shoulder, judging you for your every action, for there is no such imaginary being, it has never been proven.
Just because we don't know everything that is out there, doesn't mean there needs an answer for it now in the moment, we're finding answers to many things every day, every year, widening our knowledge of how the universe works. There is nothing to fear from not knowing an answer, even if we had all the answers, it would honestly not benefit us anyways, because we don't use every knowledge in the universe in our daily lives.
A builder doesn't consider how every atom lines and stacks when he builds a house, a farmer doesn't think about a blackhole as he goes about his daily routine tending to his farm. That we need to know everything is just silly, if you're interested find out, but just because there isn't an answer, don't substitute it with an imaginary deity that made it all with some plan, which we can't truly understand
Yes.
A belief without the possibility to verify it as truth should never be imposed as a force on others. But this thought is a Utopia, I think.
Pathetic justiications for illusions, from 2 people one can admire in ANY other context. The blind spot phenonmenon, or rather the opposite ; I have seen the " light" spot. Proof that bright minds are not worth every click of my mouse.A loss for them and me.Bravo Sam.
I don’t care much about religion much one way or the other except where it gets in the way of the truth. Religion “may” be useful but IS IT TRUE? And there is the problem. Every rational religious person I know carves out a place for religion where they can be irrational.