As someone who hit their late teens just as the internet as we know it exploded, and has spent the past 15 years consuming this 'lane' of content particularly, I have to say; this talk is one of the most valuable things the digital age has ever provided, for me personally at least. Crazy to think this caliber of dialogue is freely available to everyone. I would pay good money for an entire semester's worth of conversations between these three individuals. I'll be back again to take notes!
@@CariMachet Well you sure showed me. How smart you must be, nitpicking a turn of phrase to make a facetious point. Obviously I was referring to people who would have a ready interest in seeking out this kind of content, not every single human being on the planet. Unless of course you deliberately miss my intention just to launch some bizarre disingenuous attack on a stranger on the internet. Disgusting, am I? How fucking dare you. I've travelled plenty, thank you very much.
@@CariMachet"dialogue of this caliber are available freely" is the main point, not yours. Anyone who has a connection has access to this, free or paid. There is no other gatekeeper.
Finally. For several years now, I have been violently longing for especially Schmachtenberger to not merely 'diagnose' but also open the vulnerable flank of daring to dabble in potential solutions to the metacrisis. Obviously, I totally get the courage that it takes because of the inherent potential of loss of reputation in the eyes of your peers as it opens you up to being called naïve by the cynics. Thank you all three for finally mustering that courage. We need so much more of this and we need it across all levels of society and culture, not just amongst hyper-intellectuals in a wood paneled room.
@@netscrooge It might be possible, and desirable, for communities to become sovereign and self sustaining, aside from the nation state in which they reside. Hi tech but off grid kinda, and everyone lives like that. Just 1000s of high-tech hubs/villages. The decentralization would make us less vulnerable to attack, and also more resilient as a whole if we splintered into ultra high functioning sub groups...instead of one giant centralized blob of humanity on the world stage, tasked with moral leadership of the whole but is just always 1 decision (or two) away from complete chaos and self destruction.
@@damien1166 I suspect, rather, many people are not as much waiting for others to begin the process as much as we are confused about what to do and where to start. The thing is we are dealing with an 8.000.000.000 people culture saturated in ignorance, nested in a rivalrist/capitalist paradigm. We both don't know what to do and we are afraid to let go of the cynicism behind which we shield ourselves from the despair of not only living in, but also being an integrated part of, a profoundly sick society.
I sincerely hope that Daniel or his team are reading this; this was the first talk/conversation i saw where Daniel was the moderator of the conversation. Having seen countless talks of him being a guest, I want to say that he is fantastic and keeping the flow of a difficult conversation going without loosing the thread, i loved how he earned the mutual respect of both Ian and John shortly after the opening statements. I wish that Daniel continues to invite thinkers like Ian and John for conversations like this. Many thanks from the bottom of my heart, i was glued to the screen from beginning to end, took many notes, much to take away from/wrestle with.
Same here. I think they'd met prior to this, though, as both John and Iain talk about their talks at the Consilience Conference (wish I had an invite!). I will be busting out the note-taking device on my next listen.
I agree. When he was on Nate Hagen's podcast he flipped it around at points and interviewed Nate and did a really superb job. He's incredibly good at clarifying and re-contextualizing other people's ideas.
Deeply grateful for what was made possible to be said here. Trinity concrescence at work, with curiosity, reverence and vulnerability. I cannot not underline the fact that Daniel is "unschooled". His art of hosting and prompting in this time between worlds is "evidence of things unseen and substance of things hoped for". I have seen countless hours of conversation with both his guests, and rarely came away with the enlivenment these 3.5 hours created in me. Humbly I suggest that Daniel continue EARNESTLY to host these conversations. With permission I suggest some of the sages that I would love to see gathered in triads of inquiry: Fred Moten & Stephano Harney, Alexander Bard & Bonnitta Roy, Dave Snowden & Nora Bateson, Bayo Akomolafe & Erin Manning, Tim Norton & Rosi Braidotti, Vinay Gupta & Patrick Ryan, Yuk Hui & Audrey Tang, Monika Bielskyte & Phoebe Tickell, Franz Lanz & Jonathan Rowson, Sophie Strand & Emanuele Coccia, Frederico Campagna & Daniel Tutt, Alok & McKenzie Wark, Astra Taylor & Denise Ferreira da Silva, Simon Crichley & Cadell Last, Alex Ebert & Johannes Niederhauser, Marina Garcés & Vanessa Andreotti, Varoufakis & Erik Bordeleau, Gabor Maté & Daniel Fraga, Ariela Azoulay & Eva Illouz. etc, etc, etc inexhaustible triads only limited by the English Language.... harvesting improbable consensus... one conversation at a time feeding A.I. with symbiotic antagonism (my name for opponent processing) towards 21st Century wisdom of "Difference without Separability" (Denise Ferreira da Silva). “For there are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt - of examining what those ideas feel like being lived on Sunday morning at 7 A.M., after brunch, during wild love, making war, giving birth, mourning our dead - while we suffer the old longings, battle the old warnings and fears of being silent and impotent and alone, while we taste new possibilities and strengths.” Audre Lorde
@stungbysplendor would you mind telling me who's quote is Trinity concrescence at work, with curiosity, reverence and vulnerability? Perhaps it is yours and If so I would like your name so I can cite it in my journal. Thank you for sharing
Greatly impressed by your comment, your suggested interview subjects, and your TH-cam name. It reminded me of C.S. Lewis' "Surprised by Joy." Thank you.
Doing some deep work in this conversation. It's great to see people who are thinking about and starting to make moves towards a better way of bring in the world. I'd love to see more of this.
This was a triumph. Dialogue into Trialogos? Brilliant discussion and artfully managed... appreciated the contributions of all three of these extraordinary thinkers.
This is precious. Daniel, please do continue exploring, diving deeper into the positive feedback loops. We so desperately need this right-hemisphere bigger picture view to help us steer away from the despair and towards greater wisdom that lives in all of us- we've just forgotten that it's there...
Deep and wide conversations like this is why I pay for TH-cam. I am grateful how technology gives us the opportunity to be a virtual audience to these great minds
I loved these questions about "what can be done" - and would love a follow up. It was cool to watch the tension build and diffuse as understanding between John and Iain came to better understanding of one another. It seems like the answers are not readily aparant, but in that case the questions themselves become excellent starting places to stage critical thought/action. What positive loops are available to influence? If progress was made, how could it be measured? (Could a group identify their improved wisdom?) If something like this would benefit from growing organically, finding ways to create "petri dishes" to grow from could be a start. I'm really excited to participate in that discussion! Thank you Daniel for talking about this!
May the Concilience Project continue to elevate and amplify conversations like this. May we then each be inspired by such dialog into positive and creative action toward evolving ourselves out of the current meta-crisis. Opportunities await!
Fertile soil for the growth of the solutions to this meta crisis... Thank you for such a rich and magnificent conversation exploring the meta crisis foundations and possible grounds for solutions ❤
I saw the three of you on this video title and went: WOW! Immediately thrilled to see what type of brilliant emergent dia logos might arise from this potent blending of wisdoms. ❤
I’ve got some stuff to say about Daniel too… Cause like what’s his plan here? I mean I listened to him talk about AI and relate it to McGilchrist’s model. I believe that Daniel is one of the sharpest public speakers when it comes to the collective consciousness and this new technology. When he gets real and starts speaking about the negatives of exponential tech being fueled from militaries and medical… that it will be decentralized.. that it has the power to rip apart our psyches… I find myself right there with him. So I guess I want more from Daniel and mcgilchrist’s convo… It’s like this was just a little tease in reality… and the results of such an in-depth convo could really get us all somewhere. I mean as these guys are sitting here trying to find a new base mythos to fuel the fire of passion for the divine… three hundred thousand neuro marketers/psychologists are sitting in private rooms discussing how to hijack and profit the same mythos. So it’s just… out of balance. Everyday the sophistication of the neuro marketing gets stronger. And How many convos have we had like this?! So the scale of the battle is way out of proportion. Add in the fact that you have a bunch of prideful scholars who want to maintain an image.. and now we aren’t getting near deep enough to actually address the real issues that are rapidly accelerating. Like we are listening to this talk about 3-4 months out from the leading tech industry, Apple, dropping the vision pro. This VR/AR headset is a computer that will operate off your biometrics. Eye movement, face movement, hand movements… it can also incorporate voice reading, heart rate, and blood pressure… this is opening the door to any app developer that wants to make a kick ass app for society having access to that type of data on you. Like essentially apple just told the world we are going to break into your personal privacy like never before, and it seems like the public is going to accept this without even a blink. There is one headset that competes (or out beats) the vision pro. Varjo. And it only takes the cake by a few features… so essentially the headsets are doing almost the same things. I bring this up because if you look into the company of Varjo… you find that they are holding hands with the military (which plays right into what Daniel is worried about) and they are working with the top neuro marketers of our industrial world. Right of the opening page of some of these neuro marketing websites are quotes that would make all of us cringe. Boasting about how much they can read the minds of the public, and that they are the best choice for getting your product to go big…. So the big take away here is that Varjo is producing a headset pretty damn comparable to apple vision pro, but is openly (and proudly) stating it’s cooperation with our military, and our toxic marketing industry. They are also working with psychologists and no doubt are in relation building with the insurance companies on creating new psychoanalysis formats using the new tech. This is terrifying if you have spent any time actually studying psychology and mental health. For it is ruled by insurance and drug companies. Unless you become a private practitioner and take the pay cut, you can’t just be a therapist blasting off about Jung and mcgilchrist. You have to follow insurance guidelines to make the bills, and the insurance is dominated by the pharmaceutical industry. So long story short, they ganna pop one of these high tech VR headsets on your head, ask you some questions, and give you some anti depressants regardless of your conscious interpretation. They want to cut out the middle man, which is us, and go straight for the subconscious. The military is openly stating this. Now what about narrative control with these devices? Because all of them rely upon eye monitoring… so when you accept the cookies of the future “news” websites, they will have access to data that explains not just that you read their article, but HOW you did so. So essentially these devices, if accepted in mass, open up a whole new fucking world of disinformation. Psychological warfare on another level. Especially as we have sophisticated AI’s being created that could be updating the info you receive based upon a live feed of your attention and an overall prompt that wants you to perceive the war occurring in the way the government wishes. It is like the next step in brain washing the entire public. And apple is bringing us these devices next year…. So we have like… a super fucking scary situation occurring. And I guess part of me just wonders where that awareness is in these guys? Like if the stakes are actually this high, then the talk needs to be one of high stakes. Fuck your reputation and your fear of being misunderstood Iain! We need the real, unfiltered, you, like yesterday. Think of it like kids are being shot in the back room of where you guys are talking, and debate and discuss with that type of tension!!! Cause that’s where we actually are
Ah I just feel like if both the men had read McGilchrist’s most recent series they would have taken him much more serious when he broke the barrier of the elephant in the room, started using the word god, and spoke of co creation and bringing forth the divine. That moment was a special one!!! For he doesn’t speak of that often out of fear of being misunderstood, he has said before in interviews upon the chapter of “the sense of the sacred” that he went to painstaking lengths to speak his message in the proper way, and couldn’t just penetrate that deep without the proper context. It was as if, after he heard their responses to that moment of reveal, he laid off. Yes he still brought invaluable insight and wisdom the rest of the way, but In comparison to where he could have gone… I mean the next 40 minutes after this moment I speak of, John goes off about concepts like the one and the many, the differing religions and the inner understanding inherent in them all, the coincidentia oppositorum… he speaks of the primacy of relationship and it’s core base in our understanding of what is… Almost all of which are different chapter titles in McGilchrist’s new series. Like each chapter discusses these concepts with the thought and clarity of mcgilchrist at his best… I mean this book was his magnum opus… and both of these men just showed that they have not read a word of it. Daniel speaking of a wisdom structure that can wield the encroaching powers of tech and maintain the religious wisdom.. ok well how can we have an honest discussion of this without talking about the Roman church? The secret society’s? Theosophy? These conspiracy theories in our culture about these organizations manipulating consciousness.. it’s like we just grazed the importance of the symbols of our ancient past.. we focused on co- creation in the sense of the good and beautiful, without really touching upon the evil inherent in the process. The evil in the symbols of our Christian past. And I think In the mystery of the evil lies some serious answers to the questions posed. And i think mcgilchrist knows this, and wrote riddles in his work to even address aspects of it. But like I said, both the gentleman in the room with him showed that they haven’t invested in the journey he took yet… so they didnt see that golden moment he revealed!!!! More more more!!!! Daniel, mcgilchrist, Harris, and Peterson. 2 days. No windows.
Fantastic comment. It is quite difficult to bring up some of the subjects you do in the later half of your comment about the power institutions who have made a science of influencing religion and belief to support the established power structure. It comes as no surprise to most people that enormous amounts of money has been spent on research psych to make advertising more effective. But the same folk put labels of conspiracy theory on anyone mentioning that the oldest institutions of power have put a great deal of research into ways they can continue to keep power for themselves. Including symbols and religion itself. So co-creation would challenge the established order. It is at least a start. Thank you for your comment. I humbly ask you to read my comment, as i hope to spark ideas in others.
In many ways I feel my intelligence falls short in attempting to understand the utility of mulling over definitions and certain verbiage. That said, fascinating conversation overall and I think I'm better because of it. I really admire the work Daniel does. I strongly believe we need more smart minds toiling over the existential topics he does
This was profoundly good. It's steady progress when delving into philosophical concerns this deeply, but the gems are significant by their gravity to generate further thought, rather than just be mere bright and sparkly a-ha moments. Thanks everyone.
Thank you for bringing this work in to being. You have confirmed the orientation of our work, framed around Wellbeing & Health for Me & We, Place & Planet, that gives rise to an Australian First Nation's people inspired Transformative Learning Ecosystem for cultivating the wisdom for caring about and for living systems, the sacred and the divine. Happy Days!
Put some time into the audio production PLEASE.. This is such an important topic, and there's so little of it in the world, it really takes you out of it when you have to strain to just hear the words in some areas. Phenomenal discussion otherwise.
I'm here to comment on the beard. No one else has mentioned it's magnificence, like a horsehair broom dipped in snow, like an oven mitt covered in fresh flour. Bravo to the beard.
So glad to see McGilchrist and Vervaeke at it again! We just need Sheldrake and Gomez-Marin in the mix! Schmachtenberger is a great conduit between these two thoughtful titans! Thank you!
I have been really taking this in the last few days, much more slowly than I usually consume. My takeaway so far is that John should be deeply embedded in our information systems (ie Silicon Valley, social media, communication company’s etc.)
I sometimes ponder what algorithm is used to ‘reward’ the current AI programs to encourage them to improve their performance. Unfortunately more progress on AI has been made than the general public can grok.
Absolutely fantastic trio! Please take this one step further and remember that after the fall of so many so called civilizations the remaining indigenous peoples enveloped everything in the sacred. The natural environment was prioritized above all. Perhaps they learned from the past mistakes made? Where is the wisdom?
Whether the divine ground of being needs a response from us, the response it has been receiving is aggression- so how can anyone be optimistic about our ability to repair? Surely the first step is to recognize our failures and our default stance of opposition to reality, yet where is that happening on a large scale? Most people don’t see the problem, let alone the solution.
You aren't going to get it from them.... their job is to manage the thinkers by creating schisms within schools of thought that just need a few more lecture series, book signings and speaking dates to start that change in thinking we all need to get to. We can know this. It just isn't going to pay very well...
What a Rollercoaster! From utter dispare to inspiration for what could be. If you guys do a part 2 invite charles eisenstein unless he is to woo woo, perhaps you can talk him off the ledge of activism.
There was a deep reflection in what Ian mentioned about divine love necessarily not controlling that which it loves, in order for it to be other than itself and something to love, and what John pointed out with the question of what one finds sacred: what would you wish to exist despite your absence, and how much do you contribute to it? I think that something about the equivalent potential of Turing complete systems, which are trivially easy to create in a sense (and life is notably a self-directing, evolving Turing complete system), that might* bind our sense of the divine and the sacred's sense of the divine (since I suspect on these grounds that a mind-like God would effectively hold us sacred) as equivalent in some deep way. Perhaps the God we should understand is the temporal limit of the development of a living system. Like how a gravity well functions as the temporal limit point of an object's gradual orbiting into it, we should understand the sacred and divine as a kind of implicit guiding force in the universe. Is gravity, or the sacred, a force? Or are things merely unfolding as they relate in a topology? What are we, if not a set of topological and attributive relata? And yet we experience, we love. Perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to assume an asymmetry. These three are incredible, thank you for hosting this excellent discussion.
A verbal tome. Took a coffee-break after 47 mins. My first impression is that the 2 older guys perhaps have an obsessive compulsion to categorise each & all of the minutae connected to human interactivity within our existence. I await how they will respond to Daniel's presumed direction of "how is this gonna help us to solve the multitude of problems threatening human existence"? (to be continued)
Thanks for this wonder-full conversation. Only halfway in but already so much inspiration...here's a little offering, that came into being through the inspiring encounter of these three fellow human beings. Giving thanks! Maybe, If all there ever is, All there ever was, All there ever will be... Is life - That is accompanied by death. Both accompanied and intertwined, With awe and wonder... And it's through that union - (That divides temporarily but is connected eternally) That being comes into being. Then why are we still clinging to the known? Why are we still living in a way that serves death? Why are we still wanting to possess when there is no such thing? Why are we not able to give in - Into life Into love Into beauty Into unknowing-ness For maybe if we can change our service - From death to life... Maybe then - Unknown beauty can truly thrive. -Sacred
The closing point that John makes at the end of the section The Challenges of Bind Power with Wisdom, so so interesting. Question though, an interlocutor serves as the best antidote to my self deception/bias, but what serves that same purpose for the collective consciousness? What is the interlocutor for the collective consciousness? or is that sort of separate?
Love this! Need part 2 please! Also couldn’t help but think of Jordan Peterson’s lectures on the Tower of Babel story, and the confounding of language; to spread love of wisdom to Furthest extend need to find convergence and create common language for common people. I would add that to part of your solution in my humble opinion.
Yes, this is why the internet was created! Deep, thought provoking and ultimately hopeful conversation with highly intelligent and wise humans. My only criticism was when they identified administration and bureaucracy as fundamental "enemies" to wholeness, and never mentioned capitalism. The Moloch machine is the embodiment of capitalism., which is eating the world.
Have you all heard of a pair of books written by Dr. Lawrence J. Peter and titled "The Peter Principle" and "The Peter Prescription" . Those books identified a serious problem in corporations that have more than a few "levels" in the career paths available to new employees . Also , he then briefly provided a highly effective solution to the problem . The two books are not fundamentally philosophic in their nature but do provide a great example of how a philosophical approach to a "real world problem" yielded useful practical benefits derived by having a philosopher do what you three guys are doing during the conversation presented .
Some common threads in this conversation were how to get to a more holistic, regenerative understanding of wisdom and responsibility, and how to reconnect with the sacred. I wonder if any of the speakers are familiar with Carol Sanford's 'Regenerative Life' series and its teachings? Does it perhaps offer a framework for approaching some of these themes and instituting them in society?
“Braiding Sweetgrass” by Robin Wall Kimmerer is a really melancholic look at what happens when colonized cultures are slowly snuffed out, not necessarily by malice, but by lack of interest. I think stories like that, tragic ones, can have the ability to “Shock” people, so long as the person receiving the “shock” can handle it.
Plato betrayed Socrates (in writing down his teachings) for the benefit of us 2,000 years later - amazing. The brinkmanship of specialization/ individuation of education is critical to understand what we are doing here, but the generalization of education - literature/poetry/comparative religion/philosophy teach us why any of this is worth doing. In an absence of this meaning, people are left to trying to satisfy their hedonism and ambition - which end up being hungry ghosts.
Good evening Daniel John and iain Fascinating mixture of thought and conversation. Mistake Theory, super fits the lack of reason and rational my employer has shamefully displayed over a long time! Truly grateful for you three people and for all your shared wisdom and ideas over passing few years. Think we require a 'St AI' of sorts. Something simply new true and good! 💜
Is there a place, a forum for example where people that are influenced by the work of Schmachtenberger etc. can go to to discuss ideas and possibly find people that are close to you geographically? The audiences of videos like these are have so much potential to aggregate into meaningful relationships, to advance the causes discussed here. It’s hard for me to find people that already share interest in these subjects, but videos like these are like portals making it possible to access all the related nodes in the system. Maybe there is someone reading this from the Area around Mannheim, Germany?
I just got a bachelors degree watching this...thank you! To sum up my conclusion along with everyone I would suggest looking at a painting called "Not by bread alone" by Micheal Dudesh. There is the answer...left me teary eyed everytime. The left brain had a scapegoat that was actually the psychological bridge that pings between the two hemispheres.
Love this, but these guys aren't really saying Terence McKenna wasn't saying, simpler and funnier, 30 years ago. This conversation is the left hemisphere coming to grips with a problem that it can't solve. Enjoyable, but ineffectual. Good to see public intellectuals oriented in the right direction though.
i listened to this completely ... I don't know if I learned as much new things as 3 hrs is worth lol. sometimes academics seem to lose themselves in word salads of their own creation. There are simpler ways to say what was said, and I think the moderator of the discussion actually wanted to talk about different things, but could not steer the conversation the way they wanted. These guys are undeniably smart, and accomplished, but I think being concise with their answers and not getting bogged down in specifics will result in better content.
The single best discussion on 'wisdom' and it's value for me comes from Karl Popper. Wisdom is the awareness of the limits of your knowledge, and the humility and open-mindedness that comes from that recognition. Once you reach that point, then you start questioning the nature of the process you use to expand your knowledge and cope with the complexity of interactions in the world around you, i.e. how your thought process is structured, and from there you then embark on a very different journey to the one your were on before. I value the conversations, my concern comes from the taint of the philosophical references brought to the table. For the most part, they are of a very specific thought process, apriori type arguments which always feel naturally quite cyclical. I'm concerned there is an indulgence historically to these lines of enquiry, and this might be implicitly biasing the directions of the discussion, especially over matters of the importance of religion and the sacred, i.e. faith based decision procedures and the suspension of disbelief required for them to be effective (two components of the current metacrisis which should be removed in my view). What I really want to see is these thrown out entirely, i.e. get rid of Plato, Hobbes, Kant, Descartes, Hegel, Spinoza, Heidigger, Nietzsche, etc... (you can leave a bit of Locke if you want)... so instead you come at the discussion from the perspective of a different philosophical tradition entirely, just so we can see how alternative ways of seeing the world might impact how the metacrisis is being framed. The reason for this is I'm curious to see an analysis from a different point of view to what is otherwise a very well trodden path that leads -almost inevitably- to power principles and dialectical games emerging 'naturally' from the structure of the abstract thought process itself. Also, I'm a little uncomfortable with the near Aristotelian approach of the 'knowledge is formed is by the gathering together a group of 'wise men' who will debate the matter until they reach a solution, and then that will become knowledge'. How else might we approach this problem? ...oh and as an extra, just to point out that the collapse of the Roman Empire came at exactly the same point in history as Neo-Platonism came back into vogue with the intelligencia of the time (Plotinus and St Augustine). Turns out, ignoring all the real world problems around you and retreating into a 'magical fantasy world' of perfect forms and 'secret knowledge' is a really bad thing for keeping Empires going... just wanted to point that out for anyone suddenly thinking it's a great idea. ...oh and the Rand corporation... sigh... that would explain a lot about the deeply contradictory statements being made here then. You cannot possibly argue for a wholistic view of the world, whilst also championing Rands Objectivism, I mean, you just can't do it, its insanely bonkers.
I got a bemused chuckle out of their reference to bringing the inter-relational and mysterious nature about the Trinity back into modern Christianity when it dawned on me that there are three of them in the room. I wonder who would be the father, who would be the son, and who would be the holy spirit in this triad of thinkers.
Yet university used to be like this once upon a time. Before all this bean counting, all this administration, procedural, quantification and student-feedback-driven, results-driven teaching that stifles us. As Iain says, let’s teach creative empathic understanding of others through literature, film, history, philosophy, theology. And also maths and science, but all in balance.
Very little discussion occurs on the nature of neoliberal steering in academia. The fact that it's been going on for over a century and yet we keep hearing about what leftist nightmares universities are should be a clear indication of what kind of world we live in and how little control honest intellectuals have over the daily news cycle.
This was amazing and maybe the best thing I’ve seen on TH-cam. Thanks to the 3 of you and every commenter and viewer. Look at how many of us are here - the moral responsibility of attention. Dear God. Let’s save this place.
Mcgilchrist and Vervaeke together again is a dream - I literally shouted “yes” when this came up in my feed. Thank you to two men who have done so much to help us towards wisdom.
I wonder why they never mentioned J.Krishnamurti as he himself spoke for years and years about "the sacred" with David Bohm. I think it would be worthwhile to capitalise on their conversations.
Yes, Daniel Schmachtenberger in particular is really good framing topics and speaking in consistent pacing. Iain McGilchrist is good ondiscussin, slow pacing and good thoughts through his neuroscience and brain, and psychology. Similarly to John Veraeke in another psychological take of the Meta crisis although he's using way too many illustrators, pointy fingers and prayer/stippling. Really good conversation although even for me some of it flies by.🤣🤣😂😂
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🌐 *The discussion revolves around the Psychological Drivers of the Metacrisis and potential responses.* 01:18 🌍 *The metacrisis is characterized by global risks and challenges, unprecedented in history, arising from technological advancements.* 02:40 🚀 *Powerful technologies like nuclear weapons, AI, synthetic biology, and global supply chains contribute to the metacrisis.* 04:32 🔄 *The polycrisis perspective emphasizes the interconnectedness of various issues, cautioning that solutions to one problem may exacerbate others.* 05:30 🌐 *The metacrisis is rooted in the unique ability of humans, driven by technology shaped by the human mind, to impact the environment on a global scale.* 09:35 🔍 *McGilchrist explores the left hemisphere's focus on abstraction and categorization vs. the right hemisphere's holistic, context-aware perception.* 20:28 🌐 *Schmachtenberger raises the question of why the emissary (left hemisphere) became dominant in global civilization relative to the master (right hemisphere).* 24:58 💀 *The prevalence of zombies in culture symbolizes the meaning crisis, representing individuals living meaningless lives, disconnected and decayed.* 27:39 🧘 *Positive responses to the meaning crisis include the mindfulness revolution, interest in ancient wisdom philosophies, and exploration of Asiatic philosophies that integrate knowledge and wisdom.* 28:59 🎮 *Video games provide narrative, normative, nomological, and flow structures, offering insights into what's missing in real-world meaning.* 31:12 🧠 *General intelligence reflects the ability to solve problems by having or becoming something, addressing two meta-problems: anticipation of the world and dealing with the explosion of information possibilities.* 40:25 🔄 *The discussion shifts to the etiology of ubiquitous meaninglessness, exploring the relationship between psychological phenomena and objective environmental challenges like nuclear risk, AI, and economic issues.* 43:31 🎯 *The recovery of Neoplatonism, emphasizing polarity over poles, using the Greek word "tonos" for tension.* 44:00 🧘♂️ *Anxiety and depression are not the same; anxiety is not lateralized, while depression can be linked to unbalanced activity in specific brain regions.* 52:11 🚀 *Aspiration and rationality are intertwined; aspirational projects involve binding oneself to a future self through imagination.* 56:26 🌐 *Subjective-objective divide challenged; everything comes into being as a relation, emphasizing encounter, experience, love, and valuing.* 01:00:58 🌈 *Hierarchy of values from utility to the sacred; left hemisphere dominance tends to focus on utility, missing higher-level values.* 01:15:42 🔀 *Sociopathic defection, driven by short-term power goals, undermines the pursuit of collective well-being and meaningful life. Overcoming this requires fostering a sense of belonging to a just world and emphasizing values beyond immediate gain.* 01:30:56 🔄 *Religions, while embodying the sacred, often get corrupted by power-seeking individuals, leading to a mixed impact on civilization.* 01:32:43 🔄 *Despite challenges, there's hope in preserving cultural cognitive grammar and focusing on what remains across power shifts.* 01:40:02 🔄 *There's an ethical obligation for those valuing the sacred and wisdom to engage with power responsibly, preventing its misuse.* 01:44:39 🤔 *Plato's seduction involves engaging the left hemisphere in arguments and discussions, using that process to draw attention to non-propositional elements and the importance of character development.* 01:45:32 💬 *Dialogical practices, resembling Platonic anamnesis, can lead to a sense of intimacy and connection with the collective "we" or the logos, prompting individuals to undergo a Platonic pivot.* 01:46:54 🤖 *Logic's compulsory nature contrasts with the inability to compel wisdom and love, emphasizing the importance of vulnerability in pursuing these qualities.* 02:00:38 🔄 *The mixed bag nature of humanity, capable of both beautiful and horrific actions, is explored, with a focus on the vulnerability of our relationship to the sacred and the need for a fundamentally different approach to ethics and choice.* 02:02:51 ⚖️ *Increased coordination within in-groups, coupled with competition with out-groups, creates a challenging game theory, leading to potential conflicts in the use of technological power.* 02:06:54 🔄 *Exaptive solutions are necessary, repurposing past elements like religion, to address the unprecedented challenges posed by evolving technology and its potential misuse.* 02:11:35 🤝 *Wisdom at the scale needed to prevent self-destruction requires rethinking the relationship between power, wisdom, and technology on a global scale.* 02:15:13 🔄 *Exapting elements from the past, such as Neoplatonism and Zen, could provide a deep grammar for large-scale reconceptions of fundamental human understanding.* 02:28:37 🌌 *Whiteheadian idea of creation: McGilchrist discusses a Whiteheadian idea where the divine Ground of Being is not passive but interacts with creation, suggesting that humans play a role in the ongoing evolution and fulfillment of the divine.* 02:30:50 ⚖️ *McGilchrist’s Wager: McGilchrist proposes a concept similar to Pascal's Wager, suggesting that humans may play a role in the development and evolution of the divine, presenting an ennobling obligation to contribute positively to the world.* 02:33:09 🌱 *Optimistic view of the cosmos: Despite skepticism, McGilchrist expresses an optimistic view of the cosmos, indicating that humans, through their relationships and actions, can bring hope and dignity to the human condition.* 02:34:21 🌐 *Global synthesis of wisdom: John Vervaeke proposes a global synthesis of wisdom, drawing from Neoplatonism, Kabbalah, Sufism, and Eastern philosophies, aiming for a pluralistic approach that enriches various religious and philosophical traditions.* 02:43:11 🧠 *Hemispheric dominance and scaling: The discussion explores the connection between hemispheric dominance, scaling, and the challenges of addressing global issues without losing uniqueness and local instantiation.* 02:44:54 🌐 *Panentheism and reverence: McGilchrist expresses his panentheistic views, emphasizing the importance of seeing God in everything (panentheism) rather than God being everything (pantheism). This perspective fosters reverence and could potentially reduce conflicts between religious groups.* 02:53:23 🌐 *Emergence of a new religion: The discussion explores the idea of a "new religion" emerging, not necessarily to replace existing religions but to reify and reinterpret them in ways that address contemporary challenges such as ecological overshoot, planetary boundaries, and technological advancements.* 02:58:03 🤔 *Reification of religions and philosophical traditions: The conversation touches on the reification of existing religions and the development of new philosophical traditions. It explores how these meta-dynamics can contribute to wisdom, ecological stewardship, and aligning human values with societal structures.* 03:00:37 🏛️ *Institutions and wisdom development: Addressing the practical aspect, the discussion emphasizes the need to create ecologies of practices within communities before reforming education. This involves changing the lived normativity of cultures to avoid education reforms being co-opted by existing systems.* 03:05:30 🌐 *Education should encompass history, literature, philosophy, music, and culture, fostering creative, empathic understanding. The emphasis on IT and procedural learning should be balanced with a broader, more holistic approach.* 03:08:45 🤝 *Synoptic integration: Advocating for individuals overseeing the whole picture, bridging gaps between disciplines, and recognizing the value of synoptic integrators alongside specialists in areas like cognitive science.* 03:15:08 🌍 *Orientation and agency: Encouraging a sense of hope, duty, and action. Emphasizing the duty to further larger causes and contribute in ways that align with personal strengths, advocating against despair.* 03:16:57 💖 *Love of wisdom and being: Highlighting the real possibilities of falling in love with being, emphasizing the reciprocal opening of possibilities over the reciprocal narrowing associated with addiction. Plato's concept of anagoge is referenced.* 03:17:53 🌌 *Epistemic humility: Stressing the importance of holding mystery and the unknowable at the center, promoting an epistemic humility that comes from being open to both the overwhelming beauty and suffering present in reality.* 03:19:12 🌟 *Sacred obligation: Connecting the sense of sacred obligation to protecting reality with clear seeing, being moved by the beauty of reality, and fostering a protective impulse towards the sacredness and meaningfulness of existence.*
The most important thing I got from this conversation is a sense of relief and reassurance that it's not just me who feels that the world is operating upside down, with consumerist and utilitarian values taking a dominant role. It's also reasuring to hear their perspectives on how we get right side up via wisdom, and the necessary discernment and skillfulness required to create the right conditions. Thanks, fellas. Now I have a better sense of the creative tension one needs to attune to, to just stay sane at this time in the world.
The world is indeed upside down. Daniel Schmachtenberger often quotes Krishnamurti “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” I agree about your sense of relief to listen to these men speak. I hope a more diverse group of people join in this discussion.
I love that Krishnamurti quote! - it comforts me whenever I feel out of sorts with the maistream 'narrative'... Reminding me that of course I would feel out of sorts? Everything IS upside down, and a feeling human, living within a living planet can not feel that it is all okay.
mn 2hr. 53....the crux of things. I think it is pretty obvious that all religions have a variant ...commonly referred to as mystical tradition or wisdom tradition,.. which seems to operate on these "meta- metas" that Daniel just points out. Most obvious are Yoga in Hinduism, Sufism in Islam, Contemplative Christianity in Christianity, Zen in Buddhism, Kabbalah in Judaism ...etc. These all seem to have similar effects on the practicants ...which is to provide a deep EXPERIENCE (as opposed to knowledge) of the sacred oneness of the individual with the cosmos. This seems to result in deep capacity for empathy and soul.. and a love of many things. That love then empowers sacrifice, wisdom, and more love. It seems to be inescapable that more people will need to be exposed to the ecologies of practice (per Vervaeke) that lead to these profound experiences. I think that the key point is that this is a TRANSFORMATION that has to occur via a profound "one with cosmos" experience. One of the areas that we have neglected is the proper role of ritual. Ritual, properly conceptualized and orchestrated, can create a deep psychological transformation...an implicit transformation. We have gotten rid of ritual in favor of explicit understanding. Ritual doesn't work that way. It is implicit and when rendered explicit loses its transformative power.
2:55:30 it’s extremely weird and exciting to be living in this point of the late capitalism where 3 very intelligent thinkers are discussing the pros of ancient religions, what they have in common and what can we borrow for them to create a new one. We are witnessing the birth of a new religion coming out of a very large crisis (like it happened several times before). This new religion MUST “be capable to understand and steward the power of technology well “
Literally all I want to gift my family and friends this Christmas is a mandated sit-down-shut-the-fuck-up-and-watch of this outrageously riveting conversation.
'Love isn't an emotion. It's a way of binding my self to another person' I Love this quote. This is exactly how I found love, and understand Love. I don't love you. Love is pointing it's finger to you, and as long as it is, I am Never letting go. Finding love, the creative stream of creation, is the most substantial discovery of my Life !
At the risk of sounding banal, it seems rather obvious that we require new leadership -from without and within... and dare I say, the likes of Sam Harris et al. really need to think hard on this stuff. Despite the strange allure of high-brow athiesm, I believe we need to introduce/reintroduce the divine back into our existence.
I will be listening to this video over and over. What would be really useful is an edited transcript of the conversation. This almost needs a background reading list.
I'd like to express my deep gratitude and appreciation for the work of these three great people who have taught me so much over the last 4 years. I think the scale and complexity of the challenges facing humanity are also contributing to a sense of powerlessness and hopelessness. This discussion reminded me just how important it is to reconnect with my deep values, to not give up or become self-defeatist and to be inspired to at least try to be the change in the world I so desperately want to see. I know that there are things that I can do to create a difference or change, within my sphere of influence. Thank you for the inspiration. ❤
I especially liked Vervanke when he said "Two questions. What is it that you want to continue existing after you die and what are you doing about it?" Was something like that but more eloquently put than I could ever accomplish. They definitely were powerful words.
What would you like to have continue after you die? Wow. My own thoughts on this led me to make a post on this comment thread. I hope my taking a risk of sharing thoughts sparks someone’s imagination. It is a difficult place to risk offering, but i hope others also offer their insights.
I'm so excited about the idea of going local. This is something my husband and I have been doing with our autonomous home and vegetable garden for a few years now. Not only do our house and our family thrive, but the whole natural area around us, and the community as well. It is so paradoxical, yet so effective. And now these intelligent men are confirming our intuition, wow! I also told my husband the story about humanity's purpose being 'repairing', and as a handyman, he was fulfilled beyond limits.
Such a rich interaction and fruitful convergence between three of the most important thinkers we have right now. I hope they do more of this and it gets noticed.
This conversation left me energized and inspired. It's the kind of talk that I will probably listen to again, to highlight salient points and conflicts, etc. So little I come across feels important and relevant with the weight of the polycrisis bearing down on us but this definitely had my attention.
Isn’t it great to find people bravely facing the meta/poly crisis?!? So few approach the underlying problem so well. Even if we solve something like CO2 emissions, it does not solve the underlying human behaviors that led humanity to this brink. The underlying problem really is in our collective beliefs and behaviors. I get energized too by listening to conversations with these three men.
An absolutely wonderful conversation between three of the greatest, most integrative, most hopeful minds for our civilization (I'm less familiar with Schmachtenberger but was really impressed). It's funny that McGilchrist and Vervaeke, despite having almost identical outlooks, continually thought they were contradicting each other. Not sure why that was, but I've seen it in a previous dialogue between the two as well.
Incredibly illuminating conversation. Even more incredible for me given that their generally-agreed upon solution is quasi-religious in nature, a conclusion that I have also reached and and am currently assimilating into a new project. However I would say that we need a more 'middle-brow' version of this conversation if we are to inspire more people. The recognition of the divine and how it alters our ideas and expectations is neither new nor complicated. And it necessarily MUST be uncomplicated if we wish to avoid another paradigm of elite sages and blind followers. All followers of the new mode of thought must understand it as transparently as those who teach it, else it just creates more power levers. I too am delighted to see Daniel foraying into the solutions arena. His critique of *anything* is always mind-blowingly sharp and on-point-as they are necessarily empirical and retrospective. Whereas proposing solutions is future-blind, risky and requires leaps of faith and reasoning. I am sure he will know that solutions of all kinds are open invitations to cynics and every conceivable intellectual argument for 'why X won't work'. I hope that he proceeds on this path anyway as the sweeping solutions required needs giants like him to give us every chance of success.
A more midle-brow thinker and philosofer I find in Charles Eisenstein. In his talks or conversations no namedropping. He most certenly has read these excelent thinkers and translates it all into original and passionate new nerrative. A story of reconnecting to the sacred.
This is surreal. When I saw this I teared up and my heart started palpitating faster than light to the point of near combustion. Thank you so much sir, for allowing two of the greatest thinkers of our time to discuss face-to-face for the first time. Thank you
@@F--B call it child-like passion if you will, even naivety if you so like, but I honestly feel privilliged to be alive at a time in which my mentors are not only alive, but converse and exchange ideas and thoughts. I find it remarkable and truly awe-inspiring.
I am partway through the book Master and his Emissary by Iain McGilchrist and hearing this description of the left and right hemispheres in the conclusion was such a quantum leap in my understanding... "The left hemisphere continually narrows down to certainty, the right hemisphere continually opens up to possibility"
Now compound it with Jonathan Haidt's concept of 'core temperamental preferences', where we seem to all be born with a social/political 'gender'/allegiance on an emotional level far below whatever progressive-vs-conservative narratives we've got up in our conscious minds. Essentially, pretty much everyone is a mindless mess, running scripts that come from a hyper-brainy imbalanced mind-dominance that is profoundly delusional (and yet arrogantly certain of our attitudes and conclusions). Like the 'NPC' meme...a planet full of NPC's.
Thank you for the fade to silence & darkness at the end, a reprieve from the insatiable algorithm, a moment to contemplate the magnificent gauntlet you three have tossed out into the hive-mind, and the mysterious adventures you describe ahead for all of us... From the void, the night To the glimmer of dawn To the bright light of day There is life - Te Kore (Maturanga Maori - Polynesian wisdom)
Indigenous wisdom has so much to bring to the colonial powers that have conquered. To roll back the beliefs that support colonialism, i have found a quote that has inspired me greatly. “So long as people believe that some deserve more than others, there will be suffering.” I cannot remember who said it, but i offer it as often as i am able. I have come to think the belief that some deserve more than others underlies all of the worst of human activities. The word ‘deserve’ tells us so much: de-serve It is indeed a mysterious adventure we are on.
first of all, amazing conversation and meeting of minds! thank you for this, we need more of this dialect amongst the common. Also, I was wondering what significance or role testosterone plays as causation of the positive reinforcement or reward to the harmful feedback loops you guys defined as the drivers of this crisis? I heard testosterone doesn't cause aggression it is just that we reward it so, and if we rewarded chivalrous behaviors more so, for example, then we would see men pushing each other out of the way to hold a door open for women. (LOL silly example but you get the point)
39:35 This is what conversation manners are all about- gentleman wants to respond but bookmarks his thoughts and allows Daniel to have a word first. It's a breathe of fresh air. Thank you for being good conversationalists. The kindness of y'all makes me smile real big.
Absolutely need this group to get together again and pick up the thread. This was the best fleshed out I’ve ever scene John or Ian’s positions in an efficient way. Daniel keeps perfect track and absolutely needs to keep meditating these
As someone who hit their late teens just as the internet as we know it exploded, and has spent the past 15 years consuming this 'lane' of content particularly, I have to say; this talk is one of the most valuable things the digital age has ever provided, for me personally at least. Crazy to think this caliber of dialogue is freely available to everyone. I would pay good money for an entire semester's worth of conversations between these three individuals. I'll be back again to take notes!
The internet is absolutely NOT available to everyone >>> outrageous statement disgusting even > please travel
@@CariMachet Well you sure showed me. How smart you must be, nitpicking a turn of phrase to make a facetious point. Obviously I was referring to people who would have a ready interest in seeking out this kind of content, not every single human being on the planet. Unless of course you deliberately miss my intention just to launch some bizarre disingenuous attack on a stranger on the internet. Disgusting, am I? How fucking dare you. I've travelled plenty, thank you very much.
@@CariMachet Its available to most people. Pedantic. Left brain dominant Luciferian nonsense.
@@CariMachet"dialogue of this caliber are available freely" is the main point, not yours.
Anyone who has a connection has access to this, free or paid. There is no other gatekeeper.
@@nodakromeNot everyone has access. And gatekeepers exist no matter the platform.
Finally. For several years now, I have been violently longing for especially Schmachtenberger to not merely 'diagnose' but also open the vulnerable flank of daring to dabble in potential solutions to the metacrisis. Obviously, I totally get the courage that it takes because of the inherent potential of loss of reputation in the eyes of your peers as it opens you up to being called naïve by the cynics. Thank you all three for finally mustering that courage. We need so much more of this and we need it across all levels of society and culture, not just amongst hyper-intellectuals in a wood paneled room.
I think everyone is waiting for someone else to start the process of change
@@iamkata Diagnostics is absolutely essential to the solution of any problem. No one, as far as I can tell, have claimed otherwise :)
To a large extent, the solutions already exist. For example, Quakers have practices that could help.
@@netscrooge It might be possible, and desirable, for communities to become sovereign and self sustaining, aside from the nation state in which they reside. Hi tech but off grid kinda, and everyone lives like that. Just 1000s of high-tech hubs/villages. The decentralization would make us less vulnerable to attack, and also more resilient as a whole if we splintered into ultra high functioning sub groups...instead of one giant centralized blob of humanity on the world stage, tasked with moral leadership of the whole but is just always 1 decision (or two) away from complete chaos and self destruction.
@@damien1166 I suspect, rather, many people are not as much waiting for others to begin the process as much as we are confused about what to do and where to start. The thing is we are dealing with an 8.000.000.000 people culture saturated in ignorance, nested in a rivalrist/capitalist paradigm. We both don't know what to do and we are afraid to let go of the cynicism behind which we shield ourselves from the despair of not only living in, but also being an integrated part of, a profoundly sick society.
Please bring this trio together again to further this conversation--Absolutely wonderful
I sincerely hope that Daniel or his team are reading this; this was the first talk/conversation i saw where Daniel was the moderator of the conversation. Having seen countless talks of him being a guest, I want to say that he is fantastic and keeping the flow of a difficult conversation going without loosing the thread, i loved how he earned the mutual respect of both Ian and John shortly after the opening statements. I wish that Daniel continues to invite thinkers like Ian and John for conversations like this. Many thanks from the bottom of my heart, i was glued to the screen from beginning to end, took many notes, much to take away from/wrestle with.
Same here. I think they'd met prior to this, though, as both John and Iain talk about their talks at the Consilience Conference (wish I had an invite!). I will be busting out the note-taking device on my next listen.
Well said friend!
Daniel should be appointed as PM of Canada!
Big ditto! More More More😁🎄👍🏼💙
I agree. When he was on Nate Hagen's podcast he flipped it around at points and interviewed Nate and did a really superb job. He's incredibly good at clarifying and re-contextualizing other people's ideas.
Deeply grateful for what was made possible to be said here. Trinity concrescence at work, with curiosity, reverence and vulnerability. I cannot not underline the fact that Daniel is "unschooled". His art of hosting and prompting in this time between worlds is "evidence of things unseen and substance of things hoped for". I have seen countless hours of conversation with both his guests, and rarely came away with the enlivenment these 3.5 hours created in me.
Humbly I suggest that Daniel continue EARNESTLY to host these conversations. With permission I suggest some of the sages that I would love to see gathered in triads of inquiry: Fred Moten & Stephano Harney, Alexander Bard & Bonnitta Roy, Dave Snowden & Nora Bateson, Bayo Akomolafe & Erin Manning, Tim Norton & Rosi Braidotti, Vinay Gupta & Patrick Ryan, Yuk Hui & Audrey Tang, Monika Bielskyte & Phoebe Tickell, Franz Lanz & Jonathan Rowson, Sophie Strand & Emanuele Coccia, Frederico Campagna & Daniel Tutt, Alok & McKenzie Wark, Astra Taylor & Denise Ferreira da Silva, Simon Crichley & Cadell Last, Alex Ebert & Johannes Niederhauser, Marina Garcés & Vanessa Andreotti, Varoufakis & Erik Bordeleau, Gabor Maté & Daniel Fraga, Ariela Azoulay & Eva Illouz. etc, etc, etc inexhaustible triads only limited by the English Language.... harvesting improbable consensus... one conversation at a time feeding A.I. with symbiotic antagonism (my name for opponent processing) towards 21st Century wisdom of "Difference without Separability" (Denise Ferreira da Silva).
“For there are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt - of examining what those ideas feel like being lived on Sunday morning at 7 A.M., after brunch, during wild love, making war, giving birth, mourning our dead - while we suffer the old longings, battle the old warnings and fears of being silent and impotent and alone, while we taste new possibilities and strengths.” Audre Lorde
🙏🏼
@stungbysplendor would you mind telling me who's quote is Trinity concrescence at work, with curiosity, reverence and vulnerability? Perhaps it is yours and If so I would like your name so I can cite it in my journal. Thank you for sharing
Greatly impressed by your comment, your suggested interview subjects, and your TH-cam name. It reminded me of C.S. Lewis' "Surprised by Joy." Thank you.
@@Cnrshoe3thank you for resonating, my name is Madalena Machado, it is my wording with the thought of multitudes.
I'm out of words! Blessed to be able to imbibe the timeless wisdom of these sages. All I can say is: Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Namaste!🙏
I would, with no exaggeration, listen to hundreds of hours of this.
Doing some deep work in this conversation. It's great to see people who are thinking about and starting to make moves towards a better way of bring in the world. I'd love to see more of this.
This was a triumph. Dialogue into Trialogos? Brilliant discussion and artfully managed... appreciated the contributions of all three of these extraordinary thinkers.
This is precious. Daniel, please do continue exploring, diving deeper into the positive feedback loops. We so desperately need this right-hemisphere bigger picture view to help us steer away from the despair and towards greater wisdom that lives in all of us- we've just forgotten that it's there...
So many people have been inspired by these three men.
This is like getting the notes from the smart kids in the class. What a time to be alive.
I'll say
except Schmachtenberger is just a massive pseud
Daniel, please deepen the conversation! I'd love to hear more of what you have to say regarding these drivers
Deep and wide conversations like this is why I pay for TH-cam. I am grateful how technology gives us the opportunity to be a virtual audience to these great minds
Many thanks gentlemen. Please do deepen the conversation at your earliest.
I loved these questions about "what can be done" - and would love a follow up. It was cool to watch the tension build and diffuse as understanding between John and Iain came to better understanding of one another. It seems like the answers are not readily aparant, but in that case the questions themselves become excellent starting places to stage critical thought/action. What positive loops are available to influence? If progress was made, how could it be measured? (Could a group identify their improved wisdom?)
If something like this would benefit from growing organically, finding ways to create "petri dishes" to grow from could be a start. I'm really excited to participate in that discussion! Thank you Daniel for talking about this!
I have been waiting forever for John and Daniel to publicly discuss so excited for this! Happy to get to to know Dr McGilchrist at the same time
May the Concilience Project continue to elevate and amplify conversations like this.
May we then each be inspired by such dialog into positive and creative action toward evolving ourselves out of the current meta-crisis. Opportunities await!
Please continue this conversation! Thank you
Fertile soil for the growth of the solutions to this meta crisis... Thank you for such a rich and magnificent conversation exploring the meta crisis foundations and possible grounds for solutions ❤
The joyful chuckle at the end sums it up well.
I saw the three of you on this video title and went: WOW! Immediately thrilled to see what type of brilliant emergent dia logos might arise from this potent blending of wisdoms. ❤
I’ve got some stuff to say about Daniel too…
Cause like what’s his plan here? I mean I listened to him talk about AI and relate it to McGilchrist’s model. I believe that Daniel is one of the sharpest public speakers when it comes to the collective consciousness and this new technology. When he gets real and starts speaking about the negatives of exponential tech being fueled from militaries and medical… that it will be decentralized.. that it has the power to rip apart our psyches… I find myself right there with him. So I guess I want more from Daniel and mcgilchrist’s convo… It’s like this was just a little tease in reality… and the results of such an in-depth convo could really get us all somewhere.
I mean as these guys are sitting here trying to find a new base mythos to fuel the fire of passion for the divine… three hundred thousand neuro marketers/psychologists are sitting in private rooms discussing how to hijack and profit the same mythos.
So it’s just… out of balance. Everyday the sophistication of the neuro marketing gets stronger. And How many convos have we had like this?! So the scale of the battle is way out of proportion. Add in the fact that you have a bunch of prideful scholars who want to maintain an image.. and now we aren’t getting near deep enough to actually address the real issues that are rapidly accelerating.
Like we are listening to this talk about 3-4 months out from the leading tech industry, Apple, dropping the vision pro. This VR/AR headset is a computer that will operate off your biometrics. Eye movement, face movement, hand movements… it can also incorporate voice reading, heart rate, and blood pressure… this is opening the door to any app developer that wants to make a kick ass app for society having access to that type of data on you. Like essentially apple just told the world we are going to break into your personal privacy like never before, and it seems like the public is going to accept this without even a blink.
There is one headset that competes (or out beats) the vision pro. Varjo. And it only takes the cake by a few features… so essentially the headsets are doing almost the same things. I bring this up because if you look into the company of Varjo… you find that they are holding hands with the military (which plays right into what Daniel is worried about) and they are working with the top neuro marketers of our industrial world. Right of the opening page of some of these neuro marketing websites are quotes that would make all of us cringe. Boasting about how much they can read the minds of the public, and that they are the best choice for getting your product to go big….
So the big take away here is that Varjo is producing a headset pretty damn comparable to apple vision pro, but is openly (and proudly) stating it’s cooperation with our military, and our toxic marketing industry. They are also working with psychologists and no doubt are in relation building with the insurance companies on creating new psychoanalysis formats using the new tech. This is terrifying if you have spent any time actually studying psychology and mental health. For it is ruled by insurance and drug companies. Unless you become a private practitioner and take the pay cut, you can’t just be a therapist blasting off about Jung and mcgilchrist. You have to follow insurance guidelines to make the bills, and the insurance is dominated by the pharmaceutical industry. So long story short, they ganna pop one of these high tech VR headsets on your head, ask you some questions, and give you some anti depressants regardless of your conscious interpretation. They want to cut out the middle man, which is us, and go straight for the subconscious. The military is openly stating this.
Now what about narrative control with these devices? Because all of them rely upon eye monitoring… so when you accept the cookies of the future “news” websites, they will have access to data that explains not just that you read their article, but HOW you did so. So essentially these devices, if accepted in mass, open up a whole new fucking world of disinformation. Psychological warfare on another level. Especially as we have sophisticated AI’s being created that could be updating the info you receive based upon a live feed of your attention and an overall prompt that wants you to perceive the war occurring in the way the government wishes. It is like the next step in brain washing the entire public. And apple is bringing us these devices next year….
So we have like… a super fucking scary situation occurring. And I guess part of me just wonders where that awareness is in these guys? Like if the stakes are actually this high, then the talk needs to be one of high stakes. Fuck your reputation and your fear of being misunderstood Iain! We need the real, unfiltered, you, like yesterday. Think of it like kids are being shot in the back room of where you guys are talking, and debate and discuss with that type of tension!!! Cause that’s where we actually are
Ah I just feel like if both the men had read McGilchrist’s most recent series they would have taken him much more serious when he broke the barrier of the elephant in the room, started using the word god, and spoke of co creation and bringing forth the divine. That moment was a special one!!! For he doesn’t speak of that often out of fear of being misunderstood, he has said before in interviews upon the chapter of “the sense of the sacred” that he went to painstaking lengths to speak his message in the proper way, and couldn’t just penetrate that deep without the proper context.
It was as if, after he heard their responses to that moment of reveal, he laid off. Yes he still brought invaluable insight and wisdom the rest of the way, but In comparison to where he could have gone… I mean the next 40 minutes after this moment I speak of, John goes off about concepts like the one and the many, the differing religions and the inner understanding inherent in them all, the coincidentia oppositorum… he speaks of the primacy of relationship and it’s core base in our understanding of what is… Almost all of which are different chapter titles in McGilchrist’s new series. Like each chapter discusses these concepts with the thought and clarity of mcgilchrist at his best… I mean this book was his magnum opus… and both of these men just showed that they have not read a word of it.
Daniel speaking of a wisdom structure that can wield the encroaching powers of tech and maintain the religious wisdom..
ok well how can we have an honest discussion of this without talking about the Roman church? The secret society’s? Theosophy?
These conspiracy theories in our culture about these organizations manipulating consciousness..
it’s like we just grazed the importance of the symbols of our ancient past.. we focused on co- creation in the sense of the good and beautiful, without really touching upon the evil inherent in the process. The evil in the symbols of our Christian past. And I think In the mystery of the evil lies some serious answers to the questions posed. And i think mcgilchrist knows this, and wrote riddles in his work to even address aspects of it. But like I said, both the gentleman in the room with him showed that they haven’t invested in the journey he took yet… so they didnt see that golden moment he revealed!!!!
More more more!!!! Daniel, mcgilchrist, Harris, and Peterson. 2 days. No windows.
Fantastic comment. It is quite difficult to bring up some of the subjects you do in the later half of your comment about the power institutions who have made a science of influencing religion and belief to support the established power structure. It comes as no surprise to most people that enormous amounts of money has been spent on research psych to make advertising more effective. But the same folk put labels of conspiracy theory on anyone mentioning that the oldest institutions of power have put a great deal of research into ways they can continue to keep power for themselves. Including symbols and religion itself.
So co-creation would challenge the established order. It is at least a start.
Thank you for your comment.
I humbly ask you to read my comment, as i hope to spark ideas in others.
In many ways I feel my intelligence falls short in attempting to understand the utility of mulling over definitions and certain verbiage. That said, fascinating conversation overall and I think I'm better because of it. I really admire the work Daniel does. I strongly believe we need more smart minds toiling over the existential topics he does
Would absolutely love to see Daniel and Jonathan Pageau in conversation. It is time.
This was profoundly good. It's steady progress when delving into philosophical concerns this deeply, but the gems are significant by their gravity to generate further thought, rather than just be mere bright and sparkly a-ha moments. Thanks everyone.
Thank you for bringing this work in to being. You have confirmed the orientation of our work, framed around Wellbeing & Health for Me & We, Place & Planet, that gives rise to an Australian First Nation's people inspired Transformative Learning Ecosystem for cultivating the wisdom for caring about and for living systems, the sacred and the divine. Happy Days!
Put some time into the audio production PLEASE.. This is such an important topic, and there's so little of it in the world, it really takes you out of it when you have to strain to just hear the words in some areas. Phenomenal discussion otherwise.
I'm here to comment on the beard. No one else has mentioned it's magnificence, like a horsehair broom dipped in snow, like an oven mitt covered in fresh flour. Bravo to the beard.
😂😂
Oh so rich. I will be listening again and again. Thank you!
My inner spirit loved all of this🥺
A beautiful and highly stimulating discussion. Thank you fellas.
So glad to see McGilchrist and Vervaeke at it again! We just need Sheldrake and Gomez-Marin in the mix! Schmachtenberger is a great conduit between these two thoughtful titans! Thank you!
I have been really taking this in the last few days, much more slowly than I usually consume. My takeaway so far is that John should be deeply embedded in our information systems (ie Silicon Valley, social media, communication company’s etc.)
I sometimes ponder what algorithm is used to ‘reward’ the current AI programs to encourage them to improve their performance.
Unfortunately more progress on AI has been made than the general public can grok.
Thank you for this lovely discussion.
Absolutely fantastic trio! Please take this one step further and remember that after the fall of so many so called civilizations the remaining indigenous peoples enveloped everything in the sacred. The natural environment was prioritized above all. Perhaps they learned from the past mistakes made? Where is the wisdom?
Thoroughly enjoyable - thankyou very much.
Whether the divine ground of being needs a response from us, the response it has been receiving is aggression- so how can anyone be optimistic about our ability to repair? Surely the first step is to recognize our failures and our default stance of opposition to reality, yet where is that happening on a large scale? Most people don’t see the problem, let alone the solution.
You aren't going to get it from them.... their job is to manage the thinkers by creating schisms within schools of thought that just need a few more lecture series, book signings and speaking dates to start that change in thinking we all need to get to.
We can know this. It just isn't going to pay very well...
What a Rollercoaster! From utter dispare to inspiration for what could be. If you guys do a part 2 invite charles eisenstein unless he is to woo woo, perhaps you can talk him off the ledge of activism.
There was a deep reflection in what Ian mentioned about divine love necessarily not controlling that which it loves, in order for it to be other than itself and something to love, and what John pointed out with the question of what one finds sacred: what would you wish to exist despite your absence, and how much do you contribute to it?
I think that something about the equivalent potential of Turing complete systems, which are trivially easy to create in a sense (and life is notably a self-directing, evolving Turing complete system), that might* bind our sense of the divine and the sacred's sense of the divine (since I suspect on these grounds that a mind-like God would effectively hold us sacred) as equivalent in some deep way.
Perhaps the God we should understand is the temporal limit of the development of a living system. Like how a gravity well functions as the temporal limit point of an object's gradual orbiting into it, we should understand the sacred and divine as a kind of implicit guiding force in the universe. Is gravity, or the sacred, a force? Or are things merely unfolding as they relate in a topology? What are we, if not a set of topological and attributive relata? And yet we experience, we love. Perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to assume an asymmetry.
These three are incredible, thank you for hosting this excellent discussion.
This is absolutely priceless ❤ absolutely amazing ❤ thank you for everything ❤❤❤
A verbal tome. Took a coffee-break after 47 mins. My first impression is that the 2 older guys perhaps have an obsessive compulsion to categorise each & all of the minutae connected to human interactivity within our existence. I await how they will respond to Daniel's presumed direction of "how is this gonna help us to solve the multitude of problems threatening human existence"? (to be continued)
I am both elated and awestruck !
Thanks for this wonder-full conversation. Only halfway in but already so much inspiration...here's a little offering, that came into being through the inspiring encounter of these three fellow human beings. Giving thanks!
Maybe,
If all there ever is,
All there ever was,
All there ever will be...
Is life -
That is accompanied by death.
Both accompanied and intertwined,
With awe and wonder...
And it's through that union -
(That divides temporarily
but is connected eternally)
That being comes into being.
Then why are we still clinging to the known?
Why are we still living in a way that serves death?
Why are we still wanting to possess when there is no such thing?
Why are we not able to give in -
Into life
Into love
Into beauty
Into unknowing-ness
For maybe if we can change our service -
From death to life...
Maybe then -
Unknown beauty can truly thrive.
-Sacred
Make more of these! A+
The closing point that John makes at the end of the section The Challenges of Bind Power with Wisdom, so so interesting. Question though, an interlocutor serves as the best antidote to my self deception/bias, but what serves that same purpose for the collective consciousness? What is the interlocutor for the collective consciousness? or is that sort of separate?
Love this! Need part 2 please! Also couldn’t help but think of Jordan Peterson’s lectures on the Tower of Babel story, and the confounding of language; to spread love of wisdom to
Furthest extend need to find convergence and create common language for common people. I would add that to part of your solution in my humble opinion.
Quakerism can play a role. Quakers welcome all people. There are Christian, Buddhist, atheist ... all kinds of Quakers.
Definitely
NO FUKIN WAY, my favourites all in one convo. This is what my dreams are made off
I'm so happy for every loving person on this planet who's using ones natural intelligence❤❤❤
enjoyable to listen to, not gonna change anything
Yes, this is why the internet was created! Deep, thought provoking and ultimately hopeful conversation with highly intelligent and wise humans. My only criticism was when they identified administration and bureaucracy as fundamental "enemies" to wholeness, and never mentioned capitalism. The Moloch machine is the embodiment of capitalism., which is eating the world.
Have you all heard of a pair of books written by Dr. Lawrence J. Peter and titled "The Peter Principle" and "The Peter Prescription" . Those books identified a serious problem in corporations that have more than a few "levels" in the career paths available to new employees . Also , he then briefly provided a highly effective solution to the problem .
The two books are not fundamentally philosophic in their nature but do provide a great example of how a philosophical approach to a "real world problem" yielded useful practical benefits derived by having a philosopher do what you three guys are doing during the conversation presented .
Thank you ❤️🙏❤️
Some common threads in this conversation were how to get to a more holistic, regenerative understanding of wisdom and responsibility, and how to reconnect with the sacred. I wonder if any of the speakers are familiar with Carol Sanford's 'Regenerative Life' series and its teachings? Does it perhaps offer a framework for approaching some of these themes and instituting them in society?
“Braiding Sweetgrass” by Robin Wall Kimmerer is a really melancholic look at what happens when colonized cultures are slowly snuffed out, not necessarily by malice, but by lack of interest. I think stories like that, tragic ones, can have the ability to “Shock” people, so long as the person receiving the “shock” can handle it.
Plato betrayed Socrates (in writing down his teachings) for the benefit of us 2,000 years later - amazing.
The brinkmanship of specialization/ individuation of education is critical to understand what we are doing here, but the generalization of education - literature/poetry/comparative religion/philosophy teach us why any of this is worth doing. In an absence of this meaning, people are left to trying to satisfy their hedonism and ambition - which end up being hungry ghosts.
Thank you
Good evening Daniel John and iain
Fascinating mixture of thought and conversation.
Mistake Theory, super fits the lack of reason and rational my employer has shamefully displayed over a long time!
Truly grateful for you three people and for all your shared wisdom and ideas over passing few years.
Think we require a 'St AI' of sorts.
Something simply new true and good!
💜
Is there a place, a forum for example where people that are influenced by the work of Schmachtenberger etc. can go to to discuss ideas and possibly find people that are close to you geographically? The audiences of videos like these are have so much potential to aggregate into meaningful relationships, to advance the causes discussed here. It’s hard for me to find people that already share interest in these subjects, but videos like these are like portals making it possible to access all the related nodes in the system. Maybe there is someone reading this from the Area around Mannheim, Germany?
I just got a bachelors degree watching this...thank you! To sum up my conclusion along with everyone I would suggest looking at a painting called "Not by bread alone" by Micheal Dudesh. There is the answer...left me teary eyed everytime. The left brain had a scapegoat that was actually the psychological bridge that pings between the two hemispheres.
Love this, but these guys aren't really saying Terence McKenna wasn't saying, simpler and funnier, 30 years ago. This conversation is the left hemisphere coming to grips with a problem that it can't solve. Enjoyable, but ineffectual. Good to see public intellectuals oriented in the right direction though.
powerful. thank you
i listened to this completely ... I don't know if I learned as much new things as 3 hrs is worth lol. sometimes academics seem to lose themselves in word salads of their own creation. There are simpler ways to say what was said, and I think the moderator of the discussion actually wanted to talk about different things, but could not steer the conversation the way they wanted. These guys are undeniably smart, and accomplished, but I think being concise with their answers and not getting bogged down in specifics will result in better content.
That's a problem with Vervaeke, not with McGilchrist.
@@ambientjohnny true, it was easy to see whenever McGilchrist wanted to butt in to reform the topic / move the convo out of semantics
43:25 that laugh😂😂😂 I almost spilled my coffee
The single best discussion on 'wisdom' and it's value for me comes from Karl Popper. Wisdom is the awareness of the limits of your knowledge, and the humility and open-mindedness that comes from that recognition. Once you reach that point, then you start questioning the nature of the process you use to expand your knowledge and cope with the complexity of interactions in the world around you, i.e. how your thought process is structured, and from there you then embark on a very different journey to the one your were on before.
I value the conversations, my concern comes from the taint of the philosophical references brought to the table. For the most part, they are of a very specific thought process, apriori type arguments which always feel naturally quite cyclical. I'm concerned there is an indulgence historically to these lines of enquiry, and this might be implicitly biasing the directions of the discussion, especially over matters of the importance of religion and the sacred, i.e. faith based decision procedures and the suspension of disbelief required for them to be effective (two components of the current metacrisis which should be removed in my view).
What I really want to see is these thrown out entirely, i.e. get rid of Plato, Hobbes, Kant, Descartes, Hegel, Spinoza, Heidigger, Nietzsche, etc... (you can leave a bit of Locke if you want)... so instead you come at the discussion from the perspective of a different philosophical tradition entirely, just so we can see how alternative ways of seeing the world might impact how the metacrisis is being framed. The reason for this is I'm curious to see an analysis from a different point of view to what is otherwise a very well trodden path that leads -almost inevitably- to power principles and dialectical games emerging 'naturally' from the structure of the abstract thought process itself.
Also, I'm a little uncomfortable with the near Aristotelian approach of the 'knowledge is formed is by the gathering together a group of 'wise men' who will debate the matter until they reach a solution, and then that will become knowledge'. How else might we approach this problem?
...oh and as an extra, just to point out that the collapse of the Roman Empire came at exactly the same point in history as Neo-Platonism came back into vogue with the intelligencia of the time (Plotinus and St Augustine). Turns out, ignoring all the real world problems around you and retreating into a 'magical fantasy world' of perfect forms and 'secret knowledge' is a really bad thing for keeping Empires going... just wanted to point that out for anyone suddenly thinking it's a great idea.
...oh and the Rand corporation... sigh... that would explain a lot about the deeply contradictory statements being made here then. You cannot possibly argue for a wholistic view of the world, whilst also championing Rands Objectivism, I mean, you just can't do it, its insanely bonkers.
I got a bemused chuckle out of their reference to bringing the inter-relational and mysterious nature about the Trinity back into modern Christianity when it dawned on me that there are three of them in the room. I wonder who would be the father, who would be the son, and who would be the holy spirit in this triad of thinkers.
Great discussion! Thanks
This was amazingly good. It puts my university lectures to shame, they're not even comparable. What a time to be alive.
Yet university used to be like this once upon a time. Before all this bean counting, all this administration, procedural, quantification and student-feedback-driven, results-driven teaching that stifles us. As Iain says, let’s teach creative empathic understanding of others through literature, film, history, philosophy, theology. And also maths and science, but all in balance.
We do live in terrible, but marvelous times! Mind expanding
Very little discussion occurs on the nature of neoliberal steering in academia. The fact that it's been going on for over a century and yet we keep hearing about what leftist nightmares universities are should be a clear indication of what kind of world we live in and how little control honest intellectuals have over the daily news cycle.
This was amazing and maybe the best thing I’ve seen on TH-cam. Thanks to the 3 of you and every commenter and viewer. Look at how many of us are here - the moral responsibility of attention. Dear God. Let’s save this place.
Mcgilchrist and Vervaeke together again is a dream - I literally shouted “yes” when this came up in my feed. Thank you to two men who have done so much to help us towards wisdom.
Schmachtenberger shined with equal brightness, at least!
@@j.rivermartin3412 He is indeed the perfect moderator and co-creator of this high-level conversation
John is a real gentleman. I've talked to him on Zoom.
Holy crap... three of my favorite thinkers, together in the same room for hours. This is incredible
I know right!!!!!!!!
Same. So excited for the evolution of the consilience project.
I wonder why they never mentioned J.Krishnamurti as he himself spoke for years and years about "the sacred" with David Bohm. I think it would be worthwhile to capitalise on their conversations.
Yes, Daniel Schmachtenberger in particular is really good framing topics and speaking in consistent pacing. Iain McGilchrist is good ondiscussin, slow pacing and good thoughts through his neuroscience and brain, and psychology. Similarly to John Veraeke in another psychological take of the Meta crisis although he's using way too many illustrators, pointy fingers and prayer/stippling. Really good conversation although even for me some of it flies by.🤣🤣😂😂
I have never heard of John and Iain. I also like Nate Hagens and all of his guests. I also like Vandana Shiva, Zach Bush and Stephanie Seneff
Finally!! The consilience project has made their own channel! This is a big day!🎉
If help is ever needed for film/design I’d be happy to contribute :)
www.youtube.com/@theconsilienceproject7636
I look forward to more videos put on this channel!!!
I can do the music!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🌐 *The discussion revolves around the Psychological Drivers of the Metacrisis and potential responses.*
01:18 🌍 *The metacrisis is characterized by global risks and challenges, unprecedented in history, arising from technological advancements.*
02:40 🚀 *Powerful technologies like nuclear weapons, AI, synthetic biology, and global supply chains contribute to the metacrisis.*
04:32 🔄 *The polycrisis perspective emphasizes the interconnectedness of various issues, cautioning that solutions to one problem may exacerbate others.*
05:30 🌐 *The metacrisis is rooted in the unique ability of humans, driven by technology shaped by the human mind, to impact the environment on a global scale.*
09:35 🔍 *McGilchrist explores the left hemisphere's focus on abstraction and categorization vs. the right hemisphere's holistic, context-aware perception.*
20:28 🌐 *Schmachtenberger raises the question of why the emissary (left hemisphere) became dominant in global civilization relative to the master (right hemisphere).*
24:58 💀 *The prevalence of zombies in culture symbolizes the meaning crisis, representing individuals living meaningless lives, disconnected and decayed.*
27:39 🧘 *Positive responses to the meaning crisis include the mindfulness revolution, interest in ancient wisdom philosophies, and exploration of Asiatic philosophies that integrate knowledge and wisdom.*
28:59 🎮 *Video games provide narrative, normative, nomological, and flow structures, offering insights into what's missing in real-world meaning.*
31:12 🧠 *General intelligence reflects the ability to solve problems by having or becoming something, addressing two meta-problems: anticipation of the world and dealing with the explosion of information possibilities.*
40:25 🔄 *The discussion shifts to the etiology of ubiquitous meaninglessness, exploring the relationship between psychological phenomena and objective environmental challenges like nuclear risk, AI, and economic issues.*
43:31 🎯 *The recovery of Neoplatonism, emphasizing polarity over poles, using the Greek word "tonos" for tension.*
44:00 🧘♂️ *Anxiety and depression are not the same; anxiety is not lateralized, while depression can be linked to unbalanced activity in specific brain regions.*
52:11 🚀 *Aspiration and rationality are intertwined; aspirational projects involve binding oneself to a future self through imagination.*
56:26 🌐 *Subjective-objective divide challenged; everything comes into being as a relation, emphasizing encounter, experience, love, and valuing.*
01:00:58 🌈 *Hierarchy of values from utility to the sacred; left hemisphere dominance tends to focus on utility, missing higher-level values.*
01:15:42 🔀 *Sociopathic defection, driven by short-term power goals, undermines the pursuit of collective well-being and meaningful life. Overcoming this requires fostering a sense of belonging to a just world and emphasizing values beyond immediate gain.*
01:30:56 🔄 *Religions, while embodying the sacred, often get corrupted by power-seeking individuals, leading to a mixed impact on civilization.*
01:32:43 🔄 *Despite challenges, there's hope in preserving cultural cognitive grammar and focusing on what remains across power shifts.*
01:40:02 🔄 *There's an ethical obligation for those valuing the sacred and wisdom to engage with power responsibly, preventing its misuse.*
01:44:39 🤔 *Plato's seduction involves engaging the left hemisphere in arguments and discussions, using that process to draw attention to non-propositional elements and the importance of character development.*
01:45:32 💬 *Dialogical practices, resembling Platonic anamnesis, can lead to a sense of intimacy and connection with the collective "we" or the logos, prompting individuals to undergo a Platonic pivot.*
01:46:54 🤖 *Logic's compulsory nature contrasts with the inability to compel wisdom and love, emphasizing the importance of vulnerability in pursuing these qualities.*
02:00:38 🔄 *The mixed bag nature of humanity, capable of both beautiful and horrific actions, is explored, with a focus on the vulnerability of our relationship to the sacred and the need for a fundamentally different approach to ethics and choice.*
02:02:51 ⚖️ *Increased coordination within in-groups, coupled with competition with out-groups, creates a challenging game theory, leading to potential conflicts in the use of technological power.*
02:06:54 🔄 *Exaptive solutions are necessary, repurposing past elements like religion, to address the unprecedented challenges posed by evolving technology and its potential misuse.*
02:11:35 🤝 *Wisdom at the scale needed to prevent self-destruction requires rethinking the relationship between power, wisdom, and technology on a global scale.*
02:15:13 🔄 *Exapting elements from the past, such as Neoplatonism and Zen, could provide a deep grammar for large-scale reconceptions of fundamental human understanding.*
02:28:37 🌌 *Whiteheadian idea of creation: McGilchrist discusses a Whiteheadian idea where the divine Ground of Being is not passive but interacts with creation, suggesting that humans play a role in the ongoing evolution and fulfillment of the divine.*
02:30:50 ⚖️ *McGilchrist’s Wager: McGilchrist proposes a concept similar to Pascal's Wager, suggesting that humans may play a role in the development and evolution of the divine, presenting an ennobling obligation to contribute positively to the world.*
02:33:09 🌱 *Optimistic view of the cosmos: Despite skepticism, McGilchrist expresses an optimistic view of the cosmos, indicating that humans, through their relationships and actions, can bring hope and dignity to the human condition.*
02:34:21 🌐 *Global synthesis of wisdom: John Vervaeke proposes a global synthesis of wisdom, drawing from Neoplatonism, Kabbalah, Sufism, and Eastern philosophies, aiming for a pluralistic approach that enriches various religious and philosophical traditions.*
02:43:11 🧠 *Hemispheric dominance and scaling: The discussion explores the connection between hemispheric dominance, scaling, and the challenges of addressing global issues without losing uniqueness and local instantiation.*
02:44:54 🌐 *Panentheism and reverence: McGilchrist expresses his panentheistic views, emphasizing the importance of seeing God in everything (panentheism) rather than God being everything (pantheism). This perspective fosters reverence and could potentially reduce conflicts between religious groups.*
02:53:23 🌐 *Emergence of a new religion: The discussion explores the idea of a "new religion" emerging, not necessarily to replace existing religions but to reify and reinterpret them in ways that address contemporary challenges such as ecological overshoot, planetary boundaries, and technological advancements.*
02:58:03 🤔 *Reification of religions and philosophical traditions: The conversation touches on the reification of existing religions and the development of new philosophical traditions. It explores how these meta-dynamics can contribute to wisdom, ecological stewardship, and aligning human values with societal structures.*
03:00:37 🏛️ *Institutions and wisdom development: Addressing the practical aspect, the discussion emphasizes the need to create ecologies of practices within communities before reforming education. This involves changing the lived normativity of cultures to avoid education reforms being co-opted by existing systems.*
03:05:30 🌐 *Education should encompass history, literature, philosophy, music, and culture, fostering creative, empathic understanding. The emphasis on IT and procedural learning should be balanced with a broader, more holistic approach.*
03:08:45 🤝 *Synoptic integration: Advocating for individuals overseeing the whole picture, bridging gaps between disciplines, and recognizing the value of synoptic integrators alongside specialists in areas like cognitive science.*
03:15:08 🌍 *Orientation and agency: Encouraging a sense of hope, duty, and action. Emphasizing the duty to further larger causes and contribute in ways that align with personal strengths, advocating against despair.*
03:16:57 💖 *Love of wisdom and being: Highlighting the real possibilities of falling in love with being, emphasizing the reciprocal opening of possibilities over the reciprocal narrowing associated with addiction. Plato's concept of anagoge is referenced.*
03:17:53 🌌 *Epistemic humility: Stressing the importance of holding mystery and the unknowable at the center, promoting an epistemic humility that comes from being open to both the overwhelming beauty and suffering present in reality.*
03:19:12 🌟 *Sacred obligation: Connecting the sense of sacred obligation to protecting reality with clear seeing, being moved by the beauty of reality, and fostering a protective impulse towards the sacredness and meaningfulness of existence.*
Thank you 🎉for the generous kindness of your timestamps 🙏🏽
Thank you for the descriptions!!
Kind service!
Wow❤ Thank you so much for breaking it down so it's more understandable ❤
So helpful. Many thanks.
This video deserves to be seen by virtually everyone on TH-cam.
Very much so!
The most important thing I got from this conversation is a sense of relief and reassurance that it's not just me who feels that the world is operating upside down, with consumerist and utilitarian values taking a dominant role. It's also reasuring to hear their perspectives on how we get right side up via wisdom, and the necessary discernment and skillfulness required to create the right conditions. Thanks, fellas. Now I have a better sense of the creative tension one needs to attune to, to just stay sane at this time in the world.
The world is indeed upside down. Daniel Schmachtenberger often quotes Krishnamurti “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
I agree about your sense of relief to listen to these men speak. I hope a more diverse group of people join in this discussion.
I love that Krishnamurti quote! - it comforts me whenever I feel out of sorts with the maistream 'narrative'... Reminding me that of course I would feel out of sorts? Everything IS upside down, and a feeling human, living within a living planet can not feel that it is all okay.
it's definitely not just you. that would be so special if true.
It’s fascinating, basically what is being said is that spirituality is the meta-solution to the metacrisis
mn 2hr. 53....the crux of things. I think it is pretty obvious that all religions have a variant ...commonly referred to as mystical tradition or wisdom tradition,.. which seems to operate on these "meta- metas" that Daniel just points out. Most obvious are Yoga in Hinduism, Sufism in Islam, Contemplative Christianity in Christianity, Zen in Buddhism, Kabbalah in Judaism ...etc. These all seem to have similar effects on the practicants ...which is to provide a deep EXPERIENCE (as opposed to knowledge) of the sacred oneness of the individual with the cosmos. This seems to result in deep capacity for empathy and soul.. and a love of many things. That love then empowers sacrifice, wisdom, and more love. It seems to be inescapable that more people will need to be exposed to the ecologies of practice (per Vervaeke) that lead to these profound experiences. I think that the key point is that this is a TRANSFORMATION that has to occur via a profound "one with cosmos" experience. One of the areas that we have neglected is the proper role of ritual. Ritual, properly conceptualized and orchestrated, can create a deep psychological transformation...an implicit transformation. We have gotten rid of ritual in favor of explicit understanding. Ritual doesn't work that way. It is implicit and when rendered explicit loses its transformative power.
2:55:30 it’s extremely weird and exciting to be living in this point of the late capitalism where 3 very intelligent thinkers are discussing the pros of ancient religions, what they have in common and what can we borrow for them to create a new one. We are witnessing the birth of a new religion coming out of a very large crisis (like it happened several times before). This new religion MUST “be capable to understand and steward the power of technology well “
🤯
Literally all I want to gift my family and friends this Christmas is a mandated sit-down-shut-the-fuck-up-and-watch of this outrageously riveting conversation.
'Love isn't an emotion. It's a way of binding my self to another person'
I Love this quote. This is exactly how I found love, and understand Love. I don't love you. Love is pointing it's finger to you, and as long as it is, I am Never letting go.
Finding love, the creative stream of creation, is the most substantial discovery of my Life !
Thank you for making this discussion between these brilliant humans happen
This is probably the most intelligent conversation in content & form I have ever listened to❣️
At the risk of sounding banal, it seems rather obvious that we require new leadership -from without and within... and dare I say, the likes of Sam Harris et al. really need to think hard on this stuff. Despite the strange allure of high-brow athiesm, I believe we need to introduce/reintroduce the divine back into our existence.
We need leadership.
I will be listening to this video over and over. What would be really useful is an edited transcript of the conversation. This almost needs a background reading list.
If these kinds of conversations become a regular thing, it would be awesome to have a small background reading prepared and linked for each one.
Check the show notes carefully. There is a transcript mentioned and linked to in the show notes.
I'd like to express my deep gratitude and appreciation for the work of these three great people who have taught me so much over the last 4 years. I think the scale and complexity of the challenges facing humanity are also contributing to a sense of powerlessness and hopelessness. This discussion reminded me just how important it is to reconnect with my deep values, to not give up or become self-defeatist and to be inspired to at least try to be the change in the world I so desperately want to see. I know that there are things that I can do to create a difference or change, within my sphere of influence. Thank you for the inspiration. ❤
I especially liked Vervanke when he said "Two questions. What is it that you want to continue existing after you die and what are you doing about it?"
Was something like that but more eloquently put than I could ever accomplish. They definitely were powerful words.
What would you like to have continue after you die? Wow. My own thoughts on this led me to make a post on this comment thread. I hope my taking a risk of sharing thoughts sparks someone’s imagination. It is a difficult place to risk offering, but i hope others also offer their insights.
I'm so excited about the idea of going local. This is something my husband and I have been doing with our autonomous home and vegetable garden for a few years now. Not only do our house and our family thrive, but the whole natural area around us, and the community as well. It is so paradoxical, yet so effective. And now these intelligent men are confirming our intuition, wow!
I also told my husband the story about humanity's purpose being 'repairing', and as a handyman, he was fulfilled beyond limits.
Such a rich interaction and fruitful convergence between three of the most important thinkers we have right now. I hope they do more of this and it gets noticed.
This conversation left me energized and inspired. It's the kind of talk that I will probably listen to again, to highlight salient points and conflicts, etc. So little I come across feels important and relevant with the weight of the polycrisis bearing down on us but this definitely had my attention.
Isn’t it great to find people bravely facing the meta/poly crisis?!? So few approach the underlying problem so well. Even if we solve something like CO2 emissions, it does not solve the underlying human behaviors that led humanity to this brink. The underlying problem really is in our collective beliefs and behaviors. I get energized too by listening to conversations with these three men.
Indeed! Likewise give Gratitude and Honor unto Thy Heirs. And unto all thy HEIRS and our BEAUTIFUL programmers provided the Sea of Glass.
An absolutely wonderful conversation between three of the greatest, most integrative, most hopeful minds for our civilization (I'm less familiar with Schmachtenberger but was really impressed). It's funny that McGilchrist and Vervaeke, despite having almost identical outlooks, continually thought they were contradicting each other. Not sure why that was, but I've seen it in a previous dialogue between the two as well.
The Fear (Respect, awe) of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Incredibly illuminating conversation. Even more incredible for me given that their generally-agreed upon solution is quasi-religious in nature, a conclusion that I have also reached and and am currently assimilating into a new project.
However I would say that we need a more 'middle-brow' version of this conversation if we are to inspire more people. The recognition of the divine and how it alters our ideas and expectations is neither new nor complicated. And it necessarily MUST be uncomplicated if we wish to avoid another paradigm of elite sages and blind followers. All followers of the new mode of thought must understand it as transparently as those who teach it, else it just creates more power levers.
I too am delighted to see Daniel foraying into the solutions arena. His critique of *anything* is always mind-blowingly sharp and on-point-as they are necessarily empirical and retrospective. Whereas proposing solutions is future-blind, risky and requires leaps of faith and reasoning. I am sure he will know that solutions of all kinds are open invitations to cynics and every conceivable intellectual argument for 'why X won't work'. I hope that he proceeds on this path anyway as the sweeping solutions required needs giants like him to give us every chance of success.
Yes, proposing good solutions is important. How to motivate people to choose those good solutions is the question.
A more midle-brow thinker and philosofer I find in Charles Eisenstein. In his talks or conversations no namedropping. He most certenly has read these excelent thinkers and translates it all into original and passionate new nerrative. A story of reconnecting to the sacred.
@@paulvanblom01 Yes, Charles is great. He seems to have dropped off the radar lately.
This is surreal. When I saw this I teared up and my heart started palpitating faster than light to the point of near combustion. Thank you so much sir, for allowing two of the greatest thinkers of our time to discuss face-to-face for the first time. Thank you
You teared up? Christ almighty.
@@F--B call it child-like passion if you will, even naivety if you so like, but I honestly feel privilliged to be alive at a time in which my mentors are not only alive, but converse and exchange ideas and thoughts. I find it remarkable and truly awe-inspiring.
i get it yeah
They’ve actually had a conversation already prior to this. It’s on the ‘theories of everything podcast’.
Get some fresh air.
I am partway through the book Master and his Emissary by Iain McGilchrist and hearing this description of the left and right hemispheres in the conclusion was such a quantum leap in my understanding... "The left hemisphere continually narrows down to certainty, the right hemisphere continually opens up to possibility"
Now compound it with Jonathan Haidt's concept of 'core temperamental preferences', where we seem to all be born with a social/political 'gender'/allegiance on an emotional level far below whatever progressive-vs-conservative narratives we've got up in our conscious minds. Essentially, pretty much everyone is a mindless mess, running scripts that come from a hyper-brainy imbalanced mind-dominance that is profoundly delusional (and yet arrogantly certain of our attitudes and conclusions). Like the 'NPC' meme...a planet full of NPC's.
Thank you for the fade to silence & darkness at the end,
a reprieve from the insatiable algorithm,
a moment to contemplate the magnificent gauntlet you three have tossed out into the hive-mind,
and the mysterious adventures you describe ahead for all of us...
From the void, the night
To the glimmer of dawn
To the bright light of day
There is life - Te Kore
(Maturanga Maori - Polynesian wisdom)
Indigenous wisdom has so much to bring to the colonial powers that have conquered. To roll back the beliefs that support colonialism, i have found a quote that has inspired me greatly. “So long as people believe that some deserve more than others, there will be suffering.” I cannot remember who said it, but i offer it as often as i am able. I have come to think the belief that some deserve more than others underlies all of the worst of human activities.
The word ‘deserve’ tells us so much: de-serve
It is indeed a mysterious adventure we are on.
first of all, amazing conversation and meeting of minds! thank you for this, we need more of this dialect amongst the common.
Also, I was wondering what significance or role testosterone plays as causation of the positive reinforcement or reward to the harmful feedback loops you guys defined as the drivers of this crisis?
I heard testosterone doesn't cause aggression it is just that we reward it so, and if we rewarded chivalrous behaviors more so, for example, then we would see men pushing each other out of the way to hold a door open for women. (LOL silly example but you get the point)
Ah ha! Been waiting for this one. Jeez that Schmachtenberger beard is getting seriously Biblical 😂. Thanks for your collective amazingness 🙏🏽❤️
🤣
39:35 This is what conversation manners are all about- gentleman wants to respond but bookmarks his thoughts and allows Daniel to have a word first. It's a breathe of fresh air. Thank you for being good conversationalists. The kindness of y'all makes me smile real big.
Jordan peterson should take some notes here
2:09:34 another great example of good conversation mechanics in action. thank you.
What a compelling conversation this was! Great job all three of you. I hope you guys meet again for another conversation.
love the point about almost all wisdom having to do with "restraint" in some way
Absolutely need this group to get together again and pick up the thread. This was the best fleshed out I’ve ever scene John or Ian’s positions in an efficient way. Daniel keeps perfect track and absolutely needs to keep meditating these