Sauron: "Did you ever hear the tragedy of darth Melkor the petulant?" Witch king: "No" Sauron: "I thought not,it's not the kind of tale the Edain would tell you ..."
“But if Morgoth started randomly destroying his servants, it wouldn’t serve any purpose” This quote really strikes at what I personally find most compelling about the “Morgoth’s evil vs. Sauron’s evil” conversation. Morgoth wants to be on the same level as (or higher than) Eru Illuvatar so in his mind his own desire to do something is the purpose. Sauron’s striving to control Middle Earth and order it makes him more like a Maiar trying to take on the role appointed to the Valar. He knows, even if he later refuses to acknowledge it, that there is *some* purpose higher than himself to which he should strive when ordering Middle Earth.
Eventually Sauron would have to do it. Sauron wanted tyranical rule and control. Morgoth wanted destruction for the sake of destruction. Even his own servants.
Morgoth didn’t necessarily want complete destruction, he wanted to shape the world in his own image rather than the image Eru and the Valar had intended.
@@istari0 Pretty much. Morgoth increasingly fell into the "If I can't have it then no-one can" mentality. Very Chaotic Evil, whereas Sauron was very much Lawful Evil. To use the D&D Alignment parlance.
@@TheMarcHicks I personally believe that at the beginning Sauron trusted Morgoth and learn a lot of his magic from him by the end of the 1th age he most likely saw the writing on the wall as his master was going insane pounding all his might and corruption onto everything he wanted to destroy everything, Sauron had the potential to backstab Morgoth as by that time he actually was more powerful and not affiliated to chaotic evil( his intentions as twisted as they can be where for a better more ordered world) he could of negotiated with the Valar for forgiveness but no he choose to stay back at the war of wrath and see what happens.
So, if Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, and Morgoth was still able to deceive and manipulate Fëanor, and he also took the Silmarils, despite them burning him, I wonder what all that tells us? (I mean, I know Morgoth took them as a slight to the elves after killing Finwë and kept them to essentially show that he thought he was above the elves, but why not just get rid of them? Or feed them to Ungoliant if he had no purpose for them outside of that, and killing Finwë would’ve been enough of a victory over the elves to hang over them in mockery, and Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, meaning the Silmarils too. And since they held the holy light of the two trees, that would probably mean that he’d hate them even more than most things.)
Sauron was more cunning than late stage Morgoth - when Melkor had turned from scheming satan trying to have everything, into an angry nihilist that wanted noone to have anything because his ambition had proven impossible. Melkor very much evolved over time, so it makes sense that his later character doesn't gel with the things he did in Aman.
He would have, but I honestly see Morgoth killing Sauron before he even got the chance to betray him. There is no love in Morgoth, no room for appreciating loyalty. Gandalf said it best about Sauron to Saruman ‘There is only one Lord of the Rings, only one who can bend them to his will, and he does not share power!’ I believe this goes the same in this circumstance. Morgoth doesn’t share power.
Sauron being cunning could have rather easily dealt with Morgoth by feeding information to the Valar. He would also have had a good time improving his reputation by discreetly offering assistance to Morgoths foes with the information being Morgoths "former" lieutenant granted him. Allowing him to position himself in a way where he could both avoid consequences from the Valar (by hiding at a convenient moment after staging a scene where it seems like Morgoth slew him upon finding out he was a traitor after doing enough to secure his image as a valuable asset and saver of many lives done in repentance and at great personal risk.) This would have been a double boon, as Sauron would then have had an easier time being in the good graces of various peoples by dying as in essence a redeemed martyr that became repulsed by his "former" masters evil, ended up turning to the light, and at the cost of his own life helped turn the tide. Meaning, upon his eventual return, Sauron could have spun a tale of how he was rewarded for his deed by being returned by Eru/or and something similar. Or just not act under the name of Sauron with his shapeshifting prowess. Regardless, with a "clean slate" and the martyrdom at his beck and call, Sauron would have been able to use his Anatar Lord of Gifts disguise by linking it not only to being a messenger of the Valar but also cultivate his image as Anatar being inspired to act by the "heroism" of Sauron. If Sauron would have gone down this route, he would have had a heck of an easier time. As now, many different peoples in Middle-Earth would know him as a redeemed or redeemable martyr (certainly people who his actions saved would be vulnerable), meaning rather than oppose him, there would be ample ground for gaining followers from the masses. Especially if Sauron did as he did for the Easterlings, and uplifted peoples, bringing grand machines and marvels alike to them, making them loyal to him and his fable.
@@AltruistickAsk I don’t think many of the everyday elves would’ve went along with any leaders (under Sauron’s influence) in the event of another host of the Valar. Even assuming they don’t see through Sauron’s disguise as Annatar I can’t see them siding against the Valar. That being said it’s an interesting idea.
@@TheMasonK I'm not speaking on these things happening simultaneously. Nor am I saying that the elves would come up in arms against the Valar. Sauron's deceit would later lead to the interjection of the Valar . Similar to the destruction of Numenor.
@@AltruistickAsk okay I see what you’re getting at. It’s an interesting thought. I would love for a video on this entire topic as there’s so many potential rabbit holes you could go down for this.
Great video. I think Sauron would certainly have betrayed Morgoth. And since he was not stupid, he would have chosen his moment carefully. Which also means...not waiting too long. While far-fetched, it's interesting to think Sauron may even have had the opportunity for a redemption arc if the Valar hadn't intervened during the War of Wrath. I imagine it would be motivated first by self-interest, and the necessity of allying with other enemies of Morgoth to stop him before it was too late. But according to "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", actual redemption may not have been completely out of his reach yet. Perhaps being forced to actively resist Morgoth rather than the Valar giving him the opportunity to step into his role of defacto Lord of Middle-earth would have been enough. I still think it's more likely Sauron sets himself up as a replacement for Morgoth in the end, but it's fun to consider an alternative.
I agree. Morgoth has won and there are no remaining kingdoms in Middle Earth to oppose him, just pockets of Elves and Men hidden in places trying to survive. Sauron as 2nd in command would have taken somewhere, maybe Doriath, as his new fiefdom, and begun the enslavement of those remaining Free Peoples. I think Morgoth's forces up North would begin implementing a genocidal eradication of the Elves, Men and Dwarves, while Sauron would have an appreciation (and desire) of what the Elves and Dwarves had wrought. Sauron would seek to acquire wealth and treasures, and in doing so would want artisans (Elves and Dwarves) working under his thumb. Meanwhile Morgoth would continue to tear down whatever he could, on his side of the world. Sauron would find this wasteful, and start becoming alarmed that such treasures would be lost (to him)... he would want Celebrimbor slaving under him, while Morgoth would want him flayed and fed to the Wargs. At some point, someone like Galadriel (being that she was from Valinor) might be able to influence Sauron. He would already be conflicted, but would have taken care to not reveal that to Morgoth; and he would no longer be in his presence. But Galadriel would have been a priority prisoner for Sauron, and as such would have been nearby, and likely sense his hesitance. As she had been at Doriath in it's peak, she would have been instrumental in his restoring it's grandeur, and possibly even become one of his confidant/slaves (like Sauron was in Numenor). She would be able to point out that Morgoth would destroy everything, even his new kingdom, which was starting to take shape (and what he had always desired). She'd point out the folly of him rebuilding his palace, since it would be a waste of time. Sauron at this point would have to make a decision, to allow Morgoth to burn everything, or stage a coup d'état and claim what's left of Middle Earth for himself. To do so, he would face long odds, but he had the benefit of full knowledge of Morgoth's forces and power structure. He would need new allies, so he'd be inclined to use the remaining Elves and Dwarves; in his perspective he'd have to convince them that living in his service, in an ordered world, was preferable to being exterminated outright. And he'd have to move both stealthily and decisively- Morgoth can't see it coming, and Sauron can't afford to not succeed quickly and get stuck in a drawn out conflict or he'd lose. If Sauron wins that, what happens next is open for discussion. If the Elves and Dwarves are content to live in complete fealty, it's possible that Middle Earth becomes a beautiful garden with extremely strict, oppressive and harsh laws, but livable, comfortable even, for those willing to concede freedom of thought. It's more likely they would destroy each other; Morgoth in his fury and spite, and Sauron at the last acknowledging that there must be some intelligent life to bring structure to the world.
Eventually. But how would he do so? It’s likely the Balrogs were only slightly less powerfully than him. He’d need to turn a significant amount of Morgoth’e forces to himself. Maybe not the balrogs, then maybe dragons. Given how he made a lot of Morgoths forces in his absence, presumably he had the knowledge of how most of these dark forces could be made. In the third age he made the Olag Hai and the Uruk Hai, more powerful version of orcs and trolls, so surely he had the power to do so. It’s just the sheer power and will of Morgoth that would be hard to overcome, perhaps he could turn him over to the Valar but do what he did with Eonwe and pretend to give himself up or just run away back to the Morgoth’s forces.
A much more plausible scenario is a gradual unalignment. As Morgoth's power dispersed and he became an increasingly diminished nihlist, it's likely Morgoth's status as the absolute authority within Sauron's own realms would have eroded. I doubt Sauron would openly declare his opposition to Morgoth, not unless Morgoth attempted to attack Sauron. Rather, Morgoth's influence over Sauron would diminish and the two wills would drift apart on certain actions. In practise, this would appear as increasing independence on the part of Sauron.
I wouldn’t underestimate the Balrogs dawg, there’s a reason why these things are called “Demons of Might” and for a good reason too, they pretty much F up almost everything in their path and complete 7 of them were powerful enough to drive off the full powered Ungoliant into a full retreat knowing she was outmatched by the combined strength of the Balrogs in The Silmarillion and we see that in order to slay them would require a great strength and sacrifice, I would say Sauron was more of a Sorcerer/Tactician while the Balrogs were the main Warhammer brute force soldiers of Morgoth
@@johnkamadeva4747 Sauron definitely wouldn't have fought them face to face. The main weakness of the balrogs was their helplessness without higher commands (they were essentially doing nothing without commands from Morgoth). So i imagine Sauron would have operated in the shadows and worked towards eroding the trust into Morgoths power.
Bro i've mastered a role play game quest about this just yesterday lmao The player are facing the last hidden Boldog on middle earth, ascaped before the fall of Beleriand. The Boldog was building an army for sabotage and destory Sauron in secret, cause he thinks that Sauron usurped the dark throne of his true Master with his weird ideas about order.
Could he though? Why would the Balrogs allow him to start picking them off any more than Sauron? They were Maiar too after all. If we assume that they were under the dominion of Morgoth, then there’s no reason to suggest that Sauron wasn’t either. Did Morgoth give some of his innate power to them as well in return for their service? If so, did this bind them to him in some way? Remember, we hear that Sauron established a cult with worshipped Morgoth in Numenor, not himself. He was comfortable to direct worship towards his old master who at that point was out of the game in the void. I don’t know if it’s certain Sauron could betray Morgoth. I think he had them all by the balls. He never suffers a single betrayal except by Ungoliant and she wasn’t his to command anyway. So, I’m not sure I’m entirely onboard with this one.
Well, whether sauron could succeed in overthrowing morgoth or not would have to depend on the balrogs. If the balrogs join him then its game over for morgoth but in they don't join him then it would get complicated. Another thing would, be whether the dragons join him or not. We know that Morpeth can't create life but can only twist it so if the dragons are intact sentient being with free thinking then they would most likely join sauron. If they are attached to the will of morgoth somehow then they won't join sauron. If both the balrogs and dragons are on morgoths side then it's over for sauron. If both are on saurons side then its over for morgoth. If 1 of the 2 is on one side and the other is neutral then that side will most likely win. If both side have 1 of the 2 then its 50/50.
Sauron is singled out from the Balrogs for having joined Melkor later - sometime after the creation of the universe, while the future balrogs attuned themselves to Melkor during the Ainulindalë
I personally believe that Sauron would have eventually betrayed the orcs had he succeeded and here's why. Sauron desires a world of perfect order, Orcs as Darth Gandalf repeatedly says are self destructive creatures that constantly have to be put back in line. They would constantly bicker and fight amongst themselves and other servants of Sauron creating problems for Sauron's perfect world. Also Orcs are soldiers, that's the whole point of their existence, to fight but if there is no enemy to fight then what use would they be? Labourer's? Humans would be better and a lot less destructive and could orc's remove the instinct to fight as Morgoth programmed into them? I think not, there would be no point to their existence and in actuality they would be a liability to Sauron's world order and we know Sauron is not above genocide. As a video regarding seizing power said "The tools needed to seize power are different to the tools needed to maintain it". A good real world comparison would the SA Nazi's. Hitler needed a large group of tough men to project strength and to attack opposition but when Hitler became Chancellor he turned on them because he no longer needed the chaos the SA created but an Ordered society. They were getting out of control and their power was growing. Hitler also wanted to get some of the established powers in Germany on his side like the army generals and the arististocy and the SA's violent acts and demands were maing that difficult.
Hitler had given the SA multiple opportunities to fall in line but they literally wanted a second revolution (murdering innocent Germans). The night of 1000 knives prevented this, and Hitler ironically subverted evil.
What baffles my mind is way Mairon( Sauron) a being of order coordination and good who was second only to Aule in the lore of forging and knowledge of the elements of nature and building ( had he stayed in that position he had the potential to surpass his master in lore and knowledge) will follow a destructive and chaotic force like Melkor( Morgoth) it just doesn’t really make sense to me I mean the balrogs and other Maiar most likely joined with Melkor from the beginning but Mairon/ Sauron did it later on he was not attuned to the ideas of Melkor so what changed?. I understand that Melkor saw a huge potential in having a Maiar that was close in power to a Valar ( he did the same to Ossë) but still how did Melkor convinced Mairon?, the other thing is how much time did it took for Mairon to reemerge as Sauron/Gorthaor as when he is seen in middle earth he is a being of incredible might an evil sorcerer necromancer and creator of werewolves! So what happened did Melkor took him to school and show him all his dark sorcery and magic?, How does a god of forging of justice and order becomes a cruel godlike necromancer with complete disregard for mortals elfs dwarves and even other Ainur. I just don’t understand Sauron’s mindset here as he had seen with his own eyes the destruction and chaos his new master was capable of so way follow a nihilistic destructive being like Melkor Morgoth in the first place, by the end of the first age most likely Sauron realized his master has gone insane so way no intervene ask forgiveness from the upper class Ainur ( the Valar) and stop all this madness even the fact that Morgoth put a lot of his power not just in Sauron but in corrupting arda itself it baffles me that Mairon right then and there would of realized he made a grave mistake fallowing a maniac! Is there something I’m missing here? If somebody can explain it to me please go ahead!
Sauron would have been crushed because you forgot the Dragons which unlike Balrogs weren't formerly creatures with independent will, so would not turn on Morgoth because they were completely enslaved to his will through design.
Sauron did not call himself a god until after he made the One Ring. The Ring was a distillation and concentration of his power. With it he could have challenged the Valar and if they gave him enough time to prepare, beat them.
I disagree. One Ring or not Sauron would have stood no chance against the Valar; he simply lacked the power to do so. The One Ring could help him dominate lesser beings but Sauron was a Maia and as such a weaker class of being than any of the Valar.
@@istari0 some people believe Sauron at his peak with the ring to be Valar like in power however he did not cared about Valinor Sauron just wanted to rule and order middle earth as the ultimate utopia he did not care or wanted anything to do with valinor even if he had the power to do so
@@istari0 there where Maia strong enough to take an the Valar in the end there all Ainur Valar and Maiar are most likely ranking in the Ainu society structure.
@@WolfetoneRebel1916 Fair enough. Remember that Melkor and Morgoth were joined at the hip, however--so if you put Morgoth in front as the epitome of evil and chaos, never forget Melkor's part in all of this.
In individual battle, I don't think Morgoth could be contended with. Without weapons, only Tulkas and perhaps Ungoliant could overcome him. I would like to hear what others have to say:)
What would Tolkien think of the classic D&D alignment system? Asking cuz he seems to defy it. Sauron the proponent of order uses chaotic orcs as shock troops, and while he always imposes order through his will he never uses law as a tool. The Ringwraiths don't sign contracts and his human vassals are just lesser lords under personal allegiance.
He originally wanted to, but after his whole "claim" over Arda was rejected by the Valar, he resolved to start destroying things. Eventually, he went too far down that rabbit hole and destruction simply became the "end" rather than the "method".
Hi Gandalf! I wonder why Sauron adored Morgoth in the beginning and continued to serve him for so long after. Maybe it's just the perspective we get in the Silmarillion, but it seemed clear that Morgoth wanted destruction and chaos. Why would Sauron ally with him at all?
Well, you pretty much forgot to mention that Sauron was (at least apparently) loyal to Morgoth up until the destruction of Númenor. His loyalty extended thousands of years beyond Morgoth's downfall. You correctly stated that Sauron only abandoned his allegiance in the Third Age, not before that. Tolkien noted that he was only less evil than his master in that for a time he served another and not himself. Sauron wasn’t a traitor to Morgoth, so no, he wouldn't have betrayed him unless Morgoth betrayed him first. For a villain, he was surprisingly loyal.
The question I have is, assuming the War of Wrath did not happen, when would have Sauron seen the writing on the wall and realized that at some point Morgoth would have been coming for him? I don't think Sauron would have waited until he was the last Maia standing. Could he have suborned some of the Balrogs? Might he have attempted to assassinate Morgoth? P.S. Why is Belgium a mistake?
Because Belgium is a country of different ethnic groups fused together who do not share languages: Flanders, north Belgium, speaks Dutch; Wallonia, south Belgium, speaks French; and in east Belgium the people there speak German. There is a movement for the break-up of Belgium but it has not been successful. It is peaceful thank God knowing Europe's history old and new- and thankfully it has not become another Yugoslavia or Ukraine...
@@Zilla1954 There's a video on the subject called "Tolkien's Time Travel Story - Númenor & The Lost Road" by Nerd of the Rings. Basically CS. Lewis and Tolkien decided to write stories outside of their usual comfort zones for fun. It didn't end up being part of the legendarium, but was kind of set there and did have a large impact on the development of Númenor.
I think Tolkien said Sauron was more successful than morgoth at the end of the second age than Morgoth at the end of the first, not more powerful but I could be wrong. Morgoth was a shell of a shell of his former self at the end of the first age but it was a shell of a MASSIVELY powerful being, second only to Eru himself so I dont think Sauron was a match for Morgoth in might alone. However I do think Sauron is more skilled in combat and more willing to fight than Morgoth so that goes in his favour. In the end though I think Morgoth would win in a fight if he had the balls to actually engage with Sauron.
Unequivocally yes. Mairon was drawn to Melkor because of his power to enact change. Melkor turned his power towards the destruction of a world he could not possess. A cosmic tantrum. Mairon, with his scope more limited, desired the perfection of the world that is. Melkor's allure was the power to enable his desires for perfection. Eventually he would have seen that their goals were incompatible.
Sauron was smart and once Morgoth starts to go off the deep end he would see where things would end. He would probably align the most powerful servants of Morgoth like Balrogs, werewolves, vampires and dragons, who while not nice by any stretch of imagination wouldn't want to be rewarded for their service to Morgoth with being destroyed. Morgoth and his orcs and trolls vs Sauron and all the evil maia? Yeah, no contest here.
Wasn't Sauron's last remembered act of loyalty to Morgoth when he got the Numenoreans to worship Morgoth? And then no acts of disloyalty since? So no way to really say? Paul M. Atlanta, GA
I could see Sauron manipulating the realms of Elves and Men. Leading them in towards endless battles against Morgoth until both sides are wary and he can capitalize. But one thing that I constantly remind myself and others. Sauron, is a natural born loser. NO ONE in the history of the legendarium loses as much or on the scale that Sauron does. So whatever plans he would have made whether it would be to betray Morgoth or not, he most certainly would have failed.
a popular theory I strongly disagree with, most of this comes from the history of middle published long after Tolkien's death, he envisioned Sauron as a diehard Loyalist that reminded men of Morgoth long after all others had forgotten him, Sauron's plan to seek his own order and rule was a runner up plan to account for existence without his precious Morgoth and even then he still was the sole teacher of the religion of Morgoth that he spread across the earth, to Sauron, Morgoth was the most noble force in existence even over Eru.
I'm a little iffy on the Morgoth just wanted to destroy everything deal, actually. Morgoth did take slaves of elves and men. Perhaps this is because of character development on Morgoth's part, with Morgoth becoming more of a pure destructive force toward the end, even if earlier on he was more of, well, an evil overlord.
Agree. Destroying everything is not what "Morgoth" could do, since he weakened himself by the point he was named Morgoth. Melkor, on the other hand, as in pre elves in Valinor Melkor, did destroy Arda / lamps. By Earendil's time, Morgoth's power was reduced to killing kingdoms one at a time, and not destroying the land. It took the Valar /Eonwe in the War of Wrath and Eru with Numenor to "destroy" the land.
Morgoth turning against Sauron or the other way around would be a really bad idea. Morgoth was dependent on Sauron and vice versa. Sauron isn't an enemy Morgoth can easily defeat. Morgoth was mostly a coward and locked into the void relying on Sauron to complete some of the work.
I don't think Sauron would have betrayed Morgoth. He was genuinely loyal to the first Dark Lord, and I don't think that would have slipped if Morgoth stayed around. However, _Morgoth_ certainly would have eventually betrayed _Sauron._
Then, wouldn't have Sauron betrayed Morgoth to the Valar if he had real aspìrations of being the dark lord? Secondly,why not turn on Morgoth when he was at his weakest as in before the War of Wrath , when he had the chance to? Also when you compare to this to the event of the last alliance you find that he was a Mayar or Umayar facing elves and men respectively but not those o his own order accompanied by high elves whove been blessed by the light of the two trees. If Gandalf feared Sauron so much though they were part of the same order, then reason would lead me to believe that the same of Sauron towards Morgoth considering one is a Mayar spirit whilst the other being Valar though he'd spent most of his strength of his abominations, i still find it hard to believe Sauron could outright defeat his lord?
Sauron only seems powerful when he is a medium size fish in a tiny pond aka Middle Earth in the third era. Melkor's dragons and Balrogs would not of suddenly joined Team Sauron and even just two Balrogs would be more than a match for Sauron in combat even on Sauron's best day. Sauron is a desk fan, Morgoth was a hurricane when you compare their level of power. Yes Morgoth was weakened but even a weak Valar is powerful beyond human imagination. Meanwhile Sauron got his ass handed to him by a girl and her dog.
@@zayedbinimran957 We don't really know enough about the dragons origin or just how much free will they possessed to say if they even could break loose of Morgoth's control. The Balrogs may desert Melkor but they would not bend a knee and serve Sauron as their next course of action. Sauron is their equal, putting aside his leadership and ambition, since both Sauron and Balrogs are Maiar. There really is no examples of Maiar being able to enthrall other Maiar.
It's more complex than that. Morgoth's power diminished through the ages as he dispersed through Arda. By the time he was defeated, Sauron was more powerful and this is stated by Tolkien himself.
As mentioned in the video, Morgoth had so diminished his power by the end of the 1st Age by his attempt to corrupt Arda that he had fallen very far from what he was when Arda was first created. Not all Maiar are equal. Some are greater than others, just as we see among the Valar as well as among Men, Elves, Dwarves, etc. Tolkien doesn't give out power rankings but I'd say that based on his writings that Sauron was certainly one of the most powerful Maiar, perhaps the most powerful.
@@Sleepy.Time.There are examples of Maiar serving another Maiar. Saruman was “ensnared” by Sauron. Tolkien discusses the posssibility of Blue wizards being the servants of Sauron. Sauron also commanded Angband after Melkor went to Hildoren and we can assume Sauron commanded Balrogs at this point. According to later writings it was Sauron’s will that awakened Durins Bane. Sauron and Balrogs were not equal
Sauron: "Did you ever hear the tragedy of darth Melkor the petulant?"
Witch king: "No"
Sauron: "I thought not,it's not the kind of tale the Edain would tell you ..."
“But if Morgoth started randomly destroying his servants, it wouldn’t serve any purpose” This quote really strikes at what I personally find most compelling about the “Morgoth’s evil vs. Sauron’s evil” conversation. Morgoth wants to be on the same level as (or higher than) Eru Illuvatar so in his mind his own desire to do something is the purpose. Sauron’s striving to control Middle Earth and order it makes him more like a Maiar trying to take on the role appointed to the Valar. He knows, even if he later refuses to acknowledge it, that there is *some* purpose higher than himself to which he should strive when ordering Middle Earth.
Wow. What does your day look like?😢
Eventually Sauron would have to do it. Sauron wanted tyranical rule and control. Morgoth wanted destruction for the sake of destruction. Even his own servants.
Morgoth didn’t necessarily want complete destruction, he wanted to shape the world in his own image rather than the image Eru and the Valar had intended.
@@Destroyer94100 That was at the beginning of Arda. Later on as he descended into madness he simply wanted to destroy everything.
@@istari0 Pretty much. Morgoth increasingly fell into the "If I can't have it then no-one can" mentality. Very Chaotic Evil, whereas Sauron was very much Lawful Evil. To use the D&D Alignment parlance.
@@TheMarcHicks I personally believe that at the beginning Sauron trusted Morgoth and learn a lot of his magic from him by the end of the 1th age he most likely saw the writing on the wall as his master was going insane pounding all his might and corruption onto everything he wanted to destroy everything, Sauron had the potential to backstab Morgoth as by that time he actually was more powerful and not affiliated to chaotic evil( his intentions as twisted as they can be where for a better more ordered world) he could of negotiated with the Valar for forgiveness but no he choose to stay back at the war of wrath and see what happens.
@@istari0so morgoth became a goth, black pill, incel and just decided if i cant have it then no one can?
So, if Sauron was more cunning than Morgoth, and Morgoth was still able to deceive and manipulate Fëanor, and he also took the Silmarils, despite them burning him, I wonder what all that tells us? (I mean, I know Morgoth took them as a slight to the elves after killing Finwë and kept them to essentially show that he thought he was above the elves, but why not just get rid of them? Or feed them to Ungoliant if he had no purpose for them outside of that, and killing Finwë would’ve been enough of a victory over the elves to hang over them in mockery, and Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, meaning the Silmarils too. And since they held the holy light of the two trees, that would probably mean that he’d hate them even more than most things.)
Sauron was more cunning than late stage Morgoth - when Melkor had turned from scheming satan trying to have everything, into an angry nihilist that wanted noone to have anything because his ambition had proven impossible.
Melkor very much evolved over time, so it makes sense that his later character doesn't gel with the things he did in Aman.
@@SNWWRNNGor maybe devolved
I think even Morgoth was moved by the beauty of the gems
Devolution is the perfect way to describe Melkor's fall/transition to Morgoth. @@bearbear3793
He would have, but I honestly see Morgoth killing Sauron before he even got the chance to betray him. There is no love in Morgoth, no room for appreciating loyalty. Gandalf said it best about Sauron to Saruman ‘There is only one Lord of the Rings, only one who can bend them to his will, and he does not share power!’ I believe this goes the same in this circumstance. Morgoth doesn’t share power.
Your content keeps getting better and better DG! Congratulations on 5 years of TH-cam
Sauron being cunning could have rather easily dealt with Morgoth by feeding information to the Valar. He would also have had a good time improving his reputation by discreetly offering assistance to Morgoths foes with the information being Morgoths "former" lieutenant granted him. Allowing him to position himself in a way where he could both avoid consequences from the Valar (by hiding at a convenient moment after staging a scene where it seems like Morgoth slew him upon finding out he was a traitor after doing enough to secure his image as a valuable asset and saver of many lives done in repentance and at great personal risk.)
This would have been a double boon, as Sauron would then have had an easier time being in the good graces of various peoples by dying as in essence a redeemed martyr that became repulsed by his "former" masters evil, ended up turning to the light, and at the cost of his own life helped turn the tide. Meaning, upon his eventual return, Sauron could have spun a tale of how he was rewarded for his deed by being returned by Eru/or and something similar. Or just not act under the name of Sauron with his shapeshifting prowess. Regardless, with a "clean slate" and the martyrdom at his beck and call, Sauron would have been able to use his Anatar Lord of Gifts disguise by linking it not only to being a messenger of the Valar but also cultivate his image as Anatar being inspired to act by the "heroism" of Sauron.
If Sauron would have gone down this route, he would have had a heck of an easier time. As now, many different peoples in Middle-Earth would know him as a redeemed or redeemable martyr (certainly people who his actions saved would be vulnerable), meaning rather than oppose him, there would be ample ground for gaining followers from the masses. Especially if Sauron did as he did for the Easterlings, and uplifted peoples, bringing grand machines and marvels alike to them, making them loyal to him and his fable.
Really, Sauron just needed to be a patient dark lord, and he could have set the board up a lot better in his favor.
Good vid. Have thought about Morgoth v Sauron in a ‘dual’ several times
Interesting what if scenario; what if Sauron’s original plans with the rings of power worked?
That's a great idea.
War of Wrath pt. 2 only this time Eonwe doesn't allow Sauron to escape.
@@AltruistickAsk I don’t think many of the everyday elves would’ve went along with any leaders (under Sauron’s influence) in the event of another host of the Valar. Even assuming they don’t see through Sauron’s disguise as Annatar I can’t see them siding against the Valar. That being said it’s an interesting idea.
@@TheMasonK I'm not speaking on these things happening simultaneously. Nor am I saying that the elves would come up in arms against the Valar. Sauron's deceit would later lead to the interjection of the Valar . Similar to the destruction of Numenor.
@@AltruistickAsk okay I see what you’re getting at. It’s an interesting thought. I would love for a video on this entire topic as there’s so many potential rabbit holes you could go down for this.
Great video with excellent points!
Great video. I think Sauron would certainly have betrayed Morgoth. And since he was not stupid, he would have chosen his moment carefully. Which also means...not waiting too long.
While far-fetched, it's interesting to think Sauron may even have had the opportunity for a redemption arc if the Valar hadn't intervened during the War of Wrath. I imagine it would be motivated first by self-interest, and the necessity of allying with other enemies of Morgoth to stop him before it was too late. But according to "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", actual redemption may not have been completely out of his reach yet. Perhaps being forced to actively resist Morgoth rather than the Valar giving him the opportunity to step into his role of defacto Lord of Middle-earth would have been enough.
I still think it's more likely Sauron sets himself up as a replacement for Morgoth in the end, but it's fun to consider an alternative.
I agree. Morgoth has won and there are no remaining kingdoms in Middle Earth to oppose him, just pockets of Elves and Men hidden in places trying to survive. Sauron as 2nd in command would have taken somewhere, maybe Doriath, as his new fiefdom, and begun the enslavement of those remaining Free Peoples. I think Morgoth's forces up North would begin implementing a genocidal eradication of the Elves, Men and Dwarves, while Sauron would have an appreciation (and desire) of what the Elves and Dwarves had wrought. Sauron would seek to acquire wealth and treasures, and in doing so would want artisans (Elves and Dwarves) working under his thumb. Meanwhile Morgoth would continue to tear down whatever he could, on his side of the world. Sauron would find this wasteful, and start becoming alarmed that such treasures would be lost (to him)... he would want Celebrimbor slaving under him, while Morgoth would want him flayed and fed to the Wargs.
At some point, someone like Galadriel (being that she was from Valinor) might be able to influence Sauron. He would already be conflicted, but would have taken care to not reveal that to Morgoth; and he would no longer be in his presence. But Galadriel would have been a priority prisoner for Sauron, and as such would have been nearby, and likely sense his hesitance. As she had been at Doriath in it's peak, she would have been instrumental in his restoring it's grandeur, and possibly even become one of his confidant/slaves (like Sauron was in Numenor). She would be able to point out that Morgoth would destroy everything, even his new kingdom, which was starting to take shape (and what he had always desired). She'd point out the folly of him rebuilding his palace, since it would be a waste of time.
Sauron at this point would have to make a decision, to allow Morgoth to burn everything, or stage a coup d'état and claim what's left of Middle Earth for himself. To do so, he would face long odds, but he had the benefit of full knowledge of Morgoth's forces and power structure. He would need new allies, so he'd be inclined to use the remaining Elves and Dwarves; in his perspective he'd have to convince them that living in his service, in an ordered world, was preferable to being exterminated outright. And he'd have to move both stealthily and decisively- Morgoth can't see it coming, and Sauron can't afford to not succeed quickly and get stuck in a drawn out conflict or he'd lose.
If Sauron wins that, what happens next is open for discussion. If the Elves and Dwarves are content to live in complete fealty, it's possible that Middle Earth becomes a beautiful garden with extremely strict, oppressive and harsh laws, but livable, comfortable even, for those willing to concede freedom of thought.
It's more likely they would destroy each other; Morgoth in his fury and spite, and Sauron at the last acknowledging that there must be some intelligent life to bring structure to the world.
Eventually. But how would he do so? It’s likely the Balrogs were only slightly less powerfully than him. He’d need to turn a significant amount of Morgoth’e forces to himself. Maybe not the balrogs, then maybe dragons. Given how he made a lot of Morgoths forces in his absence, presumably he had the knowledge of how most of these dark forces could be made. In the third age he made the Olag Hai and the Uruk Hai, more powerful version of orcs and trolls, so surely he had the power to do so. It’s just the sheer power and will of Morgoth that would be hard to overcome, perhaps he could turn him over to the Valar but do what he did with Eonwe and pretend to give himself up or just run away back to the Morgoth’s forces.
A much more plausible scenario is a gradual unalignment. As Morgoth's power dispersed and he became an increasingly diminished nihlist, it's likely Morgoth's status as the absolute authority within Sauron's own realms would have eroded.
I doubt Sauron would openly declare his opposition to Morgoth, not unless Morgoth attempted to attack Sauron. Rather, Morgoth's influence over Sauron would diminish and the two wills would drift apart on certain actions. In practise, this would appear as increasing independence on the part of Sauron.
@@Uncle_Fred This is the scenario I imagine.
@@Uncle_Fred I like this scenario
I wouldn’t underestimate the Balrogs dawg, there’s a reason why these things are called “Demons of Might” and for a good reason too, they pretty much F up almost everything in their path and complete 7 of them were powerful enough to drive off the full powered Ungoliant into a full retreat knowing she was outmatched by the combined strength of the Balrogs in The Silmarillion and we see that in order to slay them would require a great strength and sacrifice, I would say Sauron was more of a Sorcerer/Tactician while the Balrogs were the main Warhammer brute force soldiers of Morgoth
@@johnkamadeva4747 Sauron definitely wouldn't have fought them face to face. The main weakness of the balrogs was their helplessness without higher commands (they were essentially doing nothing without commands from Morgoth). So i imagine Sauron would have operated in the shadows and worked towards eroding the trust into Morgoths power.
Me as a Belgian: Rude! True, but rude!
Bro i've mastered a role play game quest about this just yesterday lmao
The player are facing the last hidden Boldog on middle earth, ascaped before the fall of Beleriand. The Boldog was building an army for sabotage and destory Sauron in secret, cause he thinks that Sauron usurped the dark throne of his true Master with his weird ideas about order.
Could he though? Why would the Balrogs allow him to start picking them off any more than Sauron? They were Maiar too after all. If we assume that they were under the dominion of Morgoth, then there’s no reason to suggest that Sauron wasn’t either. Did Morgoth give some of his innate power to them as well in return for their service? If so, did this bind them to him in some way? Remember, we hear that Sauron established a cult with worshipped Morgoth in Numenor, not himself. He was comfortable to direct worship towards his old master who at that point was out of the game in the void. I don’t know if it’s certain Sauron could betray Morgoth. I think he had them all by the balls. He never suffers a single betrayal except by Ungoliant and she wasn’t his to command anyway. So, I’m not sure I’m entirely onboard with this one.
Well, whether sauron could succeed in overthrowing morgoth or not would have to depend on the balrogs. If the balrogs join him then its game over for morgoth but in they don't join him then it would get complicated.
Another thing would, be whether the dragons join him or not. We know that Morpeth can't create life but can only twist it so if the dragons are intact sentient being with free thinking then they would most likely join sauron. If they are attached to the will of morgoth somehow then they won't join sauron.
If both the balrogs and dragons are on morgoths side then it's over for sauron.
If both are on saurons side then its over for morgoth.
If 1 of the 2 is on one side and the other is neutral then that side will most likely win.
If both side have 1 of the 2 then its 50/50.
Sauron is singled out from the Balrogs for having joined Melkor later - sometime after the creation of the universe, while the future balrogs attuned themselves to Melkor during the Ainulindalë
I personally believe that Sauron would have eventually betrayed the orcs had he succeeded and here's why. Sauron desires a world of perfect order, Orcs as Darth Gandalf repeatedly says are self destructive creatures that constantly have to be put back in line. They would constantly bicker and fight amongst themselves and other servants of Sauron creating problems for Sauron's perfect world. Also Orcs are soldiers, that's the whole point of their existence, to fight but if there is no enemy to fight then what use would they be? Labourer's? Humans would be better and a lot less destructive and could orc's remove the instinct to fight as Morgoth programmed into them? I think not, there would be no point to their existence and in actuality they would be a liability to Sauron's world order and we know Sauron is not above genocide. As a video regarding seizing power said "The tools needed to seize power are different to the tools needed to maintain it". A good real world comparison would the SA Nazi's. Hitler needed a large group of tough men to project strength and to attack opposition but when Hitler became Chancellor he turned on them because he no longer needed the chaos the SA created but an Ordered society. They were getting out of control and their power was growing. Hitler also wanted to get some of the established powers in Germany on his side like the army generals and the arististocy and the SA's violent acts and demands were maing that difficult.
I've had this thought as well. In the long run, Men would have been far more useful to Sauron than Orcs if Sauron had won the war.
Hitler had given the SA multiple opportunities to fall in line but they literally wanted a second revolution (murdering innocent Germans). The night of 1000 knives prevented this, and Hitler ironically subverted evil.
What baffles my mind is way Mairon( Sauron) a being of order coordination and good who was second only to Aule in the lore of forging and knowledge of the elements of nature and building ( had he stayed in that position he had the potential to surpass his master in lore and knowledge) will follow a destructive and chaotic force like Melkor( Morgoth) it just doesn’t really make sense to me I mean the balrogs and other Maiar most likely joined with Melkor from the beginning but Mairon/ Sauron did it later on he was not attuned to the ideas of Melkor so what changed?. I understand that Melkor saw a huge potential in having a Maiar that was close in power to a Valar ( he did the same to Ossë) but still how did Melkor convinced Mairon?, the other thing is how much time did it took for Mairon to reemerge as Sauron/Gorthaor as when he is seen in middle earth he is a being of incredible might an evil sorcerer necromancer and creator of werewolves! So what happened did Melkor took him to school and show him all his dark sorcery and magic?, How does a god of forging of justice and order becomes a cruel godlike necromancer with complete disregard for mortals elfs dwarves and even other Ainur. I just don’t understand Sauron’s mindset here as he had seen with his own eyes the destruction and chaos his new master was capable of so way follow a nihilistic destructive being like Melkor Morgoth in the first place, by the end of the first age most likely Sauron realized his master has gone insane so way no intervene ask forgiveness from the upper class Ainur ( the Valar) and stop all this madness even the fact that Morgoth put a lot of his power not just in Sauron but in corrupting arda itself it baffles me that Mairon right then and there would of realized he made a grave mistake fallowing a maniac! Is there something I’m missing here? If somebody can explain it to me please go ahead!
Smith battle royale: Aule vs Faenor vs Sauron vs Morgoth.
Sauron would have been crushed because you forgot the Dragons which unlike Balrogs weren't formerly creatures with independent will, so would not turn on Morgoth because they were completely enslaved to his will through design.
1 arrow is all it takes.
Sauron did not call himself a god until after he made the One Ring. The Ring was a distillation and concentration of his power. With it he could have challenged the Valar and if they gave him enough time to prepare, beat them.
I disagree. One Ring or not Sauron would have stood no chance against the Valar; he simply lacked the power to do so. The One Ring could help him dominate lesser beings but Sauron was a Maia and as such a weaker class of being than any of the Valar.
@@istari0 some people believe Sauron at his peak with the ring to be Valar like in power however he did not cared about Valinor Sauron just wanted to rule and order middle earth as the ultimate utopia he did not care or wanted anything to do with valinor even if he had the power to do so
@@istari0 there where Maia strong enough to take an the Valar in the end there all Ainur Valar and Maiar are most likely ranking in the Ainu society structure.
Lord willing you’ve got more than 5 years left.
Ooo. I like the way you think! We will see how you do here
'Yes', is the only answer.
I think no is the only answer. All evil and chaos and corruption comes from Morgoth and his discord in the music and can't exist without him.
@@WolfetoneRebel1916 Fair enough. Remember that Melkor and Morgoth were joined at the hip, however--so if you put Morgoth in front as the epitome of evil and chaos, never forget Melkor's part in all of this.
Great question! This is why I love your chanel
In individual battle, I don't think Morgoth could be contended with. Without weapons, only Tulkas and perhaps Ungoliant could overcome him. I would like to hear what others have to say:)
Sauron was a good guy, he didn’t mind who served him as long as they did serve him. Morgoth just hated everyone 😂
What would Tolkien think of the classic D&D alignment system? Asking cuz he seems to defy it. Sauron the proponent of order uses chaotic orcs as shock troops, and while he always imposes order through his will he never uses law as a tool. The Ringwraiths don't sign contracts and his human vassals are just lesser lords under personal allegiance.
Unironically greetings from Belgium! (Belgium doesn't exist)
Did Morgoth want to destroy everything? Didn't he just want to remake everything in his image? I guess that could be considered the same thing.
He originally wanted to, but after his whole "claim" over Arda was rejected by the Valar, he resolved to start destroying things. Eventually, he went too far down that rabbit hole and destruction simply became the "end" rather than the "method".
Great video, i liked it :) I think Sauron would have betrayed Morgoth because it is in his nature to do so.
Hi Gandalf!
I wonder why Sauron adored Morgoth in the beginning and continued to serve him for so long after. Maybe it's just the perspective we get in the Silmarillion, but it seemed clear that Morgoth wanted destruction and chaos. Why would Sauron ally with him at all?
Sauron admired Morgoth’s ambition and power. This is why he joined him.
He mentioned this in the video. In the beginning, Melkor was not hell-bent on destroying everything.
A good cult leader can ensnare you psychologically even if you hold different values
He absolutely would have betrayed him if given the opportunity.
Well, you pretty much forgot to mention that Sauron was (at least apparently) loyal to Morgoth up until the destruction of Númenor. His loyalty extended thousands of years beyond Morgoth's downfall. You correctly stated that Sauron only abandoned his allegiance in the Third Age, not before that. Tolkien noted that he was only less evil than his master in that for a time he served another and not himself. Sauron wasn’t a traitor to Morgoth, so no, he wouldn't have betrayed him unless Morgoth betrayed him first. For a villain, he was surprisingly loyal.
The question I have is, assuming the War of Wrath did not happen, when would have Sauron seen the writing on the wall and realized that at some point Morgoth would have been coming for him? I don't think Sauron would have waited until he was the last Maia standing. Could he have suborned some of the Balrogs? Might he have attempted to assassinate Morgoth?
P.S. Why is Belgium a mistake?
Because Belgium is a country of different ethnic groups fused together who do not share languages: Flanders, north Belgium, speaks Dutch; Wallonia, south Belgium, speaks French; and in east Belgium the people there speak German. There is a movement for the break-up of Belgium but it has not been successful. It is peaceful thank God knowing Europe's history old and new- and thankfully it has not become another Yugoslavia or Ukraine...
Yes.
In the end there can Only be one
Sooner or later, yes.
I mean, except for that time he did mess with time travel.
When was that? Just curious.
@@Zilla1954 There's a video on the subject called "Tolkien's Time Travel Story - Númenor & The Lost Road" by Nerd of the Rings. Basically CS. Lewis and Tolkien decided to write stories outside of their usual comfort zones for fun. It didn't end up being part of the legendarium, but was kind of set there and did have a large impact on the development of Númenor.
@@docopoper Oh, thanks! I'll look into that.
I think Tolkien said Sauron was more successful than morgoth at the end of the second age than Morgoth at the end of the first, not more powerful but I could be wrong.
Morgoth was a shell of a shell of his former self at the end of the first age but it was a shell of a MASSIVELY powerful being, second only to Eru himself so I dont think Sauron was a match for Morgoth in might alone. However I do think Sauron is more skilled in combat and more willing to fight than Morgoth so that goes in his favour. In the end though I think Morgoth would win in a fight if he had the balls to actually engage with Sauron.
Unequivocally yes. Mairon was drawn to Melkor because of his power to enact change. Melkor turned his power towards the destruction of a world he could not possess. A cosmic tantrum.
Mairon, with his scope more limited, desired the perfection of the world that is. Melkor's allure was the power to enable his desires for perfection. Eventually he would have seen that their goals were incompatible.
Sauron was smart and once Morgoth starts to go off the deep end he would see where things would end. He would probably align the most powerful servants of Morgoth like Balrogs, werewolves, vampires and dragons, who while not nice by any stretch of imagination wouldn't want to be rewarded for their service to Morgoth with being destroyed.
Morgoth and his orcs and trolls vs Sauron and all the evil maia? Yeah, no contest here.
There may exist an alternate universe where Belgium does not exist!
Here we go ❤
In the end.. evil would destroy itself, just like Tolkien said.
Wasn't Sauron's last remembered act of loyalty to Morgoth when he got the Numenoreans to worship Morgoth? And then no acts of disloyalty since?
So no way to really say?
Paul M.
Atlanta, GA
Melkorism was political move, like leninism: "look at me, I'm true succesor".
“Belgium was a mistake” 😂
I could see Sauron manipulating the realms of Elves and Men. Leading them in towards endless battles against Morgoth until both sides are wary and he can capitalize. But one thing that I constantly remind myself and others. Sauron, is a natural born loser. NO ONE in the history of the legendarium loses as much or on the scale that Sauron does. So whatever plans he would have made whether it would be to betray Morgoth or not, he most certainly would have failed.
a popular theory I strongly disagree with, most of this comes from the history of middle published long after Tolkien's death, he envisioned Sauron as a diehard Loyalist that reminded men of Morgoth long after all others had forgotten him, Sauron's plan to seek his own order and rule was a runner up plan to account for existence without his precious Morgoth and even then he still was the sole teacher of the religion of Morgoth that he spread across the earth, to Sauron, Morgoth was the most noble force in existence even over Eru.
I'm a little iffy on the Morgoth just wanted to destroy everything deal, actually. Morgoth did take slaves of elves and men. Perhaps this is because of character development on Morgoth's part, with Morgoth becoming more of a pure destructive force toward the end, even if earlier on he was more of, well, an evil overlord.
Agree. Destroying everything is not what "Morgoth" could do, since he weakened himself by the point he was named Morgoth. Melkor, on the other hand, as in pre elves in Valinor Melkor, did destroy Arda / lamps. By Earendil's time, Morgoth's power was reduced to killing kingdoms one at a time, and not destroying the land.
It took the Valar /Eonwe in the War of Wrath and Eru with Numenor to "destroy" the land.
Yes, Morgoth changed over time and became more focused on sheer destruction.
Morgoth turning against Sauron or the other way around would be a really bad idea. Morgoth was dependent on Sauron and vice versa. Sauron isn't an enemy Morgoth can easily defeat. Morgoth was mostly a coward and locked into the void relying on Sauron to complete some of the work.
LOL at the end time travel is dumb 😂
Are you a Tolkien scholar?
Sauron was dependent on Morgoth in his role as a dark lord. He would have to become something else without him.
Sauron would never betray his BF Morgoth-sempai. ANGBANG FOREVAAAAAAAH
I don't think Sauron would have betrayed Morgoth. He was genuinely loyal to the first Dark Lord, and I don't think that would have slipped if Morgoth stayed around. However, _Morgoth_ certainly would have eventually betrayed _Sauron._
Then, wouldn't have Sauron betrayed Morgoth to the Valar if he had real aspìrations of being the dark lord? Secondly,why not turn on Morgoth when he was at his weakest as in before the War of Wrath , when he had the chance to?
Also when you compare to this to the event of the last alliance you find that he was a Mayar or Umayar facing elves and men respectively but not those o his own order accompanied by high elves whove been blessed by the light of the two trees.
If Gandalf feared Sauron so much though they were part of the same order, then reason would lead me to believe that the same of Sauron towards Morgoth considering one is a Mayar spirit whilst the other being Valar though he'd spent most of his strength of his abominations, i still find it hard to believe Sauron could outright defeat his lord?
Algormancy!
Ok, liked, if for no other reason than that final joke about clickbait.
good video thanks salute from Canada.
Sauron only seems powerful when he is a medium size fish in a tiny pond aka Middle Earth in the third era. Melkor's dragons and Balrogs would not of suddenly joined Team Sauron and even just two Balrogs would be more than a match for Sauron in combat even on Sauron's best day.
Sauron is a desk fan, Morgoth was a hurricane when you compare their level of power. Yes Morgoth was weakened but even a weak Valar is powerful beyond human imagination. Meanwhile Sauron got his ass handed to him by a girl and her dog.
Well if morgoth suddenly started killing the dragons and balrogs then I have no doubt they will join suaron
@@zayedbinimran957 We don't really know enough about the dragons origin or just how much free will they possessed to say if they even could break loose of Morgoth's control.
The Balrogs may desert Melkor but they would not bend a knee and serve Sauron as their next course of action. Sauron is their equal, putting aside his leadership and ambition, since both Sauron and Balrogs are Maiar.
There really is no examples of Maiar being able to enthrall other Maiar.
It's more complex than that. Morgoth's power diminished through the ages as he dispersed through Arda. By the time he was defeated, Sauron was more powerful and this is stated by Tolkien himself.
As mentioned in the video, Morgoth had so diminished his power by the end of the 1st Age by his attempt to corrupt Arda that he had fallen very far from what he was when Arda was first created.
Not all Maiar are equal. Some are greater than others, just as we see among the Valar as well as among Men, Elves, Dwarves, etc. Tolkien doesn't give out power rankings but I'd say that based on his writings that Sauron was certainly one of the most powerful Maiar, perhaps the most powerful.
@@Sleepy.Time.There are examples of Maiar serving another Maiar. Saruman was “ensnared” by Sauron. Tolkien discusses the posssibility of Blue wizards being the servants of Sauron. Sauron also commanded Angband after Melkor went to Hildoren and we can assume Sauron commanded Balrogs at this point. According to later writings it was Sauron’s will that awakened Durins Bane.
Sauron and Balrogs were not equal
Poor belgians
If morgoth was exterminating the human race to extinction eru would kick his ass out of middle earth
*Video ends: Me as a Belgian, Yes it is. :P
Never messed with? Lol
You planning on dying 5 years from now?
Yes, Belgium was a mistake 😆
The Congolese agree 🤣
.
Kropka
Leave Belgium out of this.