Dear Authors... Redemption Arcs
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Hero: *Throws Snickers at villain mid conflict*
Hero: Feel better?
Villain: Yeah, sorry. I was trippin'
I mean my MC starts to rethink her life as an assassin when she's given a warm bed, homecooked meals and love she realizes she doesn't deserve. It's a hard process for her and she has a lot of questionable methods when doing the right thing. She wants to be the sort of person who deserves what's freely given to her. So don't underestimate the power of a good stew and fresh bread.
@@PetalsAndPlague and definitely don't underestimate the power a snicker
I would actually not feel robbed of a great ending if this happened somewhere.
I mean starvation can result in a lot of weird results but if giving them food was all it took, you're not dealing with villainy, you're dealing with desperation.
You won best comment xD
Protagonist: You're bad and that's not good, so don't do that anymore.
Villain: I never thought about that before doing all those horrible and reprehensible things, you're right, I will no more be bad.
Protagonist: That was easy! Glad you’re on our side.
Not a book, but... We're talking to you President Business...
Steven Universe anyone
Micah Clark Villain: Happy to be hear! Now, let’s never bring up the fact that I was trying to kill you ever again.
Steven Universe in a nutshell
The only redemption arc I've ever liked was SPOILER when SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER.
That was my favorite too!
I loved their redemption arc
Masterfully executes and satisfying arc... my favorite as well
Loved that one
Me too! Legendary.
"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good".
- Stannis Baratheon
Kevin Anand the ultimate justice
On the other hand...Seriously. Maybe don't chop off people's hands.
@@toshomni9478 Only the fingers don't worry.
The one true king
Stannis The Mannis
everybody's talking about avatar but the real shining star is megamind
Megamind is fun, but I don't think his motivations for changing side are very good ones for making a really compelling redemption arc.
Vegeta though hahaha
What book is this from?
@@merphynapier42 Not sure which one you're asking about but Megamind is a Dreamworks animation film from about 10 years ago and Vegeta is from Dragonball Z
@@rlewis55 there's no way Merph was not being sarcastic
"I wouldn't call it a redemption arc if they do one good action, right before they die" AMEN
YES! I'm looking at you Spider Man 3, and all the other movies that would take me too long to list!
rip billy
kshamwhizzle cmon don’t do arthur like that, his arc started when he caught tb :(
kshamwhizzle my arthur was a good boi
What about in young elites a character is sort of evil and has to do something that she doesn't want to even at the end but only does it because of someone they love
I appreciate the redemption arcs where the villain gives up their ideology but still remains a git.
Spike from Buffy is so this
Yes! Or still has the same overall goals, just with other (less evil) plans to get there. When changing your mind, or shifting morality, you as a person still is the same (mostly)
Like Snape
i'm definitely using this idea.
A bit like daylane from everfall. Guys a reformed fantasy stalin and why he does good things he's still a dick frequently
If you watched Avatar as a kid, Zuko set you up to be disappointed forever after by every attempt at a redemption arc that will never live up to our favorite exiled prince. Here’s why the Zuko Redemption works, and what other writers should follow:
• Zuko was never evil in the first place. The show does a great job of portraying as threatening and sinister in Book 1, but when you tally up his crimes, he’s actually done very little. The worst is holding the protagonists captive for very brief periods of time.
• Moral scaling. Zuko is the worst until we’re introduced to the worst. Admiral Zhao’s introduction shows us an actual bad Fire Narion soldier, who burns down villages and kills people, and Zuko bristles against his lack of honor (hehe). Then comes Azula, who goes out of her way to capture an entire kingdom in the middle of a retrieval mission.
• Zuko is not the engine of evil, he is a single gear. All of his actions stem from a mission given to him by the person actually responsible for the violent colonization of the Fire Nation.
• Zuko’s honor code aligned with his mission only when he didn’t fully understand the negative impact his country has had on the world. His quest took him out into the world and he actually got to see what the Fire Nation has done to people, which challenges his world views.
• Zuko surrendered his privilege and his prizes to join the good side; he had everything to lose, which makes his choice to leave the Fire Nation have weight.
• Zuko takes accountability in spite of his abuse!! Instead of copping out at “he’s been abused by his awful tyrant father so it’s not his fault,” Zuko recognizes and confronts the values he inherited from his father, is ready to throw hands at Daddy Evil, but still accepts and acknowledges what he himself did in the name of the Fire Nation and doesn’t kick it under the rug.
• Zuko had a mentor guiding him, which is why Zuko has a strong moral center to begin with, and he does get a little worse toward the end before he gets better. But having an angel on his shoulder helps! And it’s fascinating to see Zuko wrestle with what is right, like “obeying my father” is a cultural value he’s accepted as Right, even when it’s conflicting with “causing poor farmers to suffer and grieve” is Wrong.
That’s why the Zuko redemption arc is special. Every other redemption arc I’ve watched or read hasn’t given us all this ^ the last good arc I saw was Regina from Once Upon A Time, which I loved, except she was actually evil... Miss Regina like murdered poor peasants and put curses on children, of her own volition. It’s really hard to come back from that.
I agree with everything you say, except for one detail. In my opinion, the worst thing Zuko does is steal an ostrich-horse (I think that's what they're called?) from a family that invited him and Iroh to dinner. It is the only action of his I consider dishonourable. Every other time, even when he fights the good guys, he fights fairly and doesn't hide his intentions or his allegiance
I don't find a lot of people who watched once upon a time. And yes she was fully evil and then overtime she got good.
Spoiler warning
I also like Rumpel because he is on the line of good and evil and jumps from side to side and he does have a reason but that doesn't mean he don't regret his past action (i mean the moment with his son getting pulled in the real world)
@General Freckleface Yes! His first encounter with the good guys is already a display of restraint and honour. Plus, Iroh was clearly a good man who wouldn't show loyalty to someone truly evil
@General Freckleface There are some red flags. He having Iroh, he having as much screentime as the Gaang and, of course, *Storm*
“Daddy evil”
Moral of the story: the redeemable are not so easily redeemed.
Evil person: I've been killing people in cold blood until now.
Protagonist: I'm going to forgive you because you are hot.
Me: ?!
😂 Oooohhhh my god, too true!
Yeah I hate that
*cough* Kylo Ren *cough cough*
I am gonna steal that, word for word, for my book, OK?
That's gonna be honest at least.
@@hulmhochberg8129 I would accept it. I can appreciate the honesty.
Also : let the character struggle with morality. If you've been killing people without thinking about it for years, or doing immoral things for a long time, your brain genuinely won't register those as "bad". It's proven for example that the more you lie, the less your brain notices it, like in the end you genuinely won't even realize you're lying anymore.
So if a character who's been evil for a long time is redeeming themselves well... they're still going to have problems understanding things that shock other characters. Like a murderer will definitely not stop violence all at once. They're not actually going to consider beating someone to a pulp as a "bad" thing if they deem it a reasonable decision, they may not even realize it's supposed to be bad depending on their past. It's interesting for them to actually have to LEARN how to go back from their initial position, learn morality or at least struggle with their own limits and boundaries. Like "ok I don't want to kill people anymore but where do I stop now ?"
If the villain says: "From now on I will be slightly less bad" then it's not as conclusive a resolution to the narrative-conflict as if the villain dies. In fact, how would you know when to end the story? I like the idea though.
@@Mecharnie_Dobbs Oh I agree, and I'm not saying they should never stop entirely. But let's take the example of a kid who was raised as a murderer. He decides for any reason to stop murdering people and try to use his skills for the greater good. Perfect !
In practice however, if they become desperately angry or if someone resists them, and they have been litteraly raised with the idea that murder and violence were actual legitimate answer, their first idea will be to use violence and/or murder. I don't mean they have to do it or even have to think about murdering a person but even in a more normal situation, a veteran soldier will usually be more prone to use violence than someone who has never been in a physical fight, because their brain has become used to using it as a response to difficult situations.
They don't have to act on these impulses, but denying their existence entirely would be damaging to the character in my opinion and showing the process through which they overcome their past makes it so much more satisfying when they finally pull through !
This is a comic book but that is always how I read Damian Wayne from the Batman world! He was raised to be an assassin and really struggles with what is right and wrong but he made the decision to try and learn a new definition of both those things. Watching him grow has been so rewarding!
I think this is where motives and back story really comes into play. If they have been bad all there life, then let's start off with a reason... a motivation. For me, this makes the transition into "good" so much easier... especially if the motivation behind their bad behavior is so severely challenged that it causes the shift in behavior. That is so much more believable. That also provides the opportunity for that author to highlight the struggle between making that mental shift.
Gaëlle D. Torfinn, is it you? (Vinlandsaga)
I love how a majority of people are in agreement about Zuko's redemption arc being one of the best in all of fiction. It is just so good and never fails to make me happy over his development.
I mean, Zuko is so good, he pretty much overshadows everyone else in the show.
Unpopular opinion here. I have never been a big fan of Zuko. He is getting too much attention. There are other characters too than just him and I like them better.
I agree but I'm so tired of it being the only one mentioned in vids/comment sections like this because while good, there are PLENTY of other amazing ones in more adult shows that handle the scenario with more nuance due to the complexity of adult-oriented media.
HAMILTRON9000 Zuko had a great redemption arc as opposed to Jet’s! I’m really salty that they killed Jet off after he did a good thing *because he was hypnotized* !!!!
Ugh and when he finally reunites with uncle it makes me cry every time
I can’t even imagine a pre-avatar world, where you could bring up redemption arcs without at least one person mentioning zuko
Zuko: the king of both the Fire Nation and redemption arcs.
ale YESSSSS
But seriously I will never forget it
Even Iroh technically had a redemption arc we just didn't get to see it as much I reaaaally wanna see that
@@BabeRuthXX Idk, RDR2 Had a fucking brilliant redemption for a particular character who for spoiler reasons
My favorite redemption arc was when 2nd Dimension!Doofenshmirtz got his toy train back, stopped being evil, and then immediately got arrested
Phineas and Ferb is genious
@Percabeth_Leo Fredweasley TRUE ATLA
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Better than Avatar tbh
“I don’t believe that the main character can turn a villain good by just monologuing to them.”
Me: Read Naruto
Oml yes! I hate naruto and every other shonen anime for that!
Talk-no-jutsu
Yeah lol I kinda like gaara and itachi s "redemptions" from that though because gaara is pretty much a mirror of naruto so it makes more sense he would get through + we see gaara doing good from the rest of the series like making his village better and then itachi wasn't really bad oh I also liked zabuza! Cause he cared for haku butttt yeah shounen is terrible for this THEY DO IT WAY TOO DAMN MUCH! So far MHA hasn't been so bad for it though (I've only see to the beginning of the villan arc) that may change
@@midknight9188 Oh don't worry MHA gets there, not as badly as Naruto but it gets there.
Except the character dont really turn good. When it comes to naruto. The villoans werent bad, they were victims of the shinobi system. The only real villian is orochimaru.
"One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a life time of wickedness."
"But it is enough to condemn him."
-timeless wisdom of the Pirates of the Caribbean.
“Each of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done.”
-Bryan Stevenson
“A man is better than the worst thing he's ever done.”
― Matthew Colville, Priest (book 1 of the Ratcatcher series)
So neither of them have ever tried googling the names of former celebrities?
Me:*Trying to think was is the worst thing I've ever done*
I literally just finished watching Just Mercy. Great quote. Two thumbs up for your comment.
Opposite is also true. A man is worse than the best thing he's ever done.
The "redeemed through love" thing would probably work better if falling for someone on the other side is just the first step. Maybe the villain realizes they like this person...but how can that be, they're supposed to be the enemy! And the person they've fallen for either has no idea or is like "Eww. No. You're a terrible person." That way, falling in love is what gets the villain to start questioning their actions...not the thing that "fixes" them.
So basically Megamind
And maybe not have the person the villain has fallen for actually reciprocate the feelings, because he/she can't forgive the villain, or just doesn't feel the same way. But it still acts as a catalyst for a big change, and the redeemed villain walks away feeling better about themselves and wanting to be a better person, not for anybody else but for themselves.
And love doesn't need to be romantic.
Sometimes villains just need to follow the Bad Guy Affirmation: "I'm bad, and that's good; I will never be good, and that's not bad; there's no one I'd rather be than me"
Also, this Dear Authors series is amazing.
And just because they are a bad guy doesn’t mean they are a bad *guy*
That's bad.
I like redemption arcs, but when the protagonist never knows the antagonist turned good. An example of this is Missy from Doctor Who, it’s a very sad redemption arc :(
Thanks, Satan
Dear Authors: Tension/Suspense. Please. You are so insightful and this would be incredibly informative and enjoyable.
Good idea!
YES
This I agree as a wannabe author
PLEASE do a review of Avatar the Last Airbender when you're done with it.
Oh yes that would be the best!!
That show was a Master Class on Redemption Arcs. I hope she reviews it as well. One of the best shows period, animation or otherwise.
I plan to!
@@merphynapier42 Thank you
@@merphynapier42 I am sooooooo looking forward to that!
Bad redemption arcs:
Villain: i am evil. Mwaa ha ha
Hero: No you aren't.
Villain: i am good now.
So when a protagonist/hero becomes a villain, what's that called? A corruption arc?
Ooh I like that
I vote for that one next. :)
A fallen hero arc?
Chicken Draws Dogs fall from grace
There could be a redemption arc even after a corruption arc, huo yuan jia started off good then turned bad and finally redeems himself later on.
You guys in the comments are making me want to rewatch Avatar now. Goddamnit I was busy wallowing in loneliness in quarantine!
I got a heart from Merphy :') My life is complete.
When you watch this while writting your first book🧑🏻💻
David Müllet good luck, me too!
Me too! Good luck to us all.
Same, good luck!!
Good luck! Can't wait to read a book which follows some guidelines from this series 😍
David Müllet same man
Good luck to all of us
I find that when a character is suffering after a trauma readers will say that the author dragged it out. Example - In Mocking Jay Katniss has PTSD from the games and then the uprising. People complained about her whining. There were whole threads about how she needed to get over it.
my dude, Avatar is THE PERFECT redemption arc. You can’t talk redemption arcs without bringing up my man.
Also, the redemption doesn't have to be linear. The character could start seeing the wrong in their actions and be compelled to change, but then return to their old self and make other mistakes. That way, the redemption at the end is much more satisfying and rewarding.
Dear authors:
Please don’t change the villains physical presentation when they find the good side. “Their eyes looked kind”, doesn’t work. If the villain’s eyes looked cold and threatening before, that’s not gonna change. At least not much. People don’t only just look the way they look, (which isn’t easily changed) they also have facial manorisms. The way they present their face is ingrained in their muscles. If the villain looked scary, they’ll probably always look scary to some degree.
Well people have looks in their eyes depending on their emotional state at that moment. If a person is cold and evil theyre gonna have a different look to a nice and sensitive person
Actually the redeemed character still looking intimidating or evil could make a really interesting plot point. A potential ally not trusting them because they still look evil or them feeling bad because normal every day people are scared of them and run away.
@@ASmartNameForMe A change in ideology is not the same as a change in personality. It's very hard to change your habits, even once you KNOW they're bad. Just because a person WANTS to be nice, doesn't mean they'll suddenly have more patience/social skills than they did before. Someone who is used to lashing out violently, will still have that violence as their first impulse, they'll just be trying harder now to reign it in.
For real life examples, I see this a lot in the dog training community, when a trainer changes from coercion-based methods to force-free methods, they'll often still find themselves impulsively yanking the leash or making startling noises when the dog does something they don't like, and then being like "oh shit, I was trying not to do that anymore!"
It took me months before I stopped yelping "no" if I saw my dogs pick up unknown garbage on a walk, and even now, it still happens to me sometimes. Even though I rationally KNOW that it's causing needless distress to the dogs, and I can easily get the dog to HAPPILY drop it by trading for a treat they're allowed to have.
@@animalobsessed1 that’s not what I meant
Eyes define a person a lot..
Zuko hits all of these points for a good redemption arc.
Still my favorite redeemed character pf all time.
Alexander Holman Read/watch Vinland Saga ists great an have a extremly good redemtion arc/story
What about a villain who seems like he is redeeming himself, but actually isn't? Protagonist:“I can never forgive you.“
“Then don't! I don't care about you or what you think about me! I know what I did could be seen as evil, but you never had to make my decisions. I had my reasons and those are still the same. That we see ourselfs on the same site right now, does not mean that I think otherwise. It's just the best option that I have right now. Don't make it more than it is.“
And then he dies, because it was the best play he got at that time and was not really a villain, but the hero of another story, of his own story.
I love it, when you have people who do good or bad things, but not because they're the hero or the bad guy, but because they're people on opposite sites and they see themself as the hero of their journey.
There’s a redemption arch in “The Good Place” (a TV show) that’s really well done.
It irritates me when the way you redeem a character is by sacrificing his life in the end - I can see where this is OK, but I prefer it when the character actually has to live and prove that he has changed, I think killing the character off is just a little bit lazy
That was also my thought! The villain does ONE good thing. Dies. And then will be remembered as a hero? No way.....
I read a book once where like three different characters redemmed themselves right before dying. Which I thought was lame.
(SPOILERS DOWN BELOW FOR PERSONA 5. DO NOT CONTINUE READING IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED PLAYING)
You just described Goro Akechi. As in the " villains sacrifices itself right before dying".
The only book I’ve read where this made sense was Percy Jackson (spoiler)
Killing Luke off made perfect sense
**cough** Doctor Who **cough**
Recommendation: Hello Future Me's video on redemption arcs. But spoiler warning, it's basically an in-depth analysis of Zuko
I plan to watch it (and many of his videos) after I finish the series!
@@merphynapier42 I sooo can't wait to hear your thoughts. It seems like all over booktube, everyone agrees that Avatar is just the exception to every rule, and I'm here for it!
@@Ali-zn6sg It's strange that it's booktube of all places that clamors for Avatar, but I guess it makes a little sense, since these kinds of things can apply to more than just books.
@@TallMist I think there's a side of booktube that really really loves the analysis side of things, video essays and all of that. Avatar is definitely the golden child of the video essay community (and rightfully so!). So I think where those two groups merge is the avatar hub
Ali Perez His videos are soooo good! 😆
My favourite redemption arc is Sunset Shimmer from the Equestria Girls films because she starts off as the main villain in the first film and then in the second film she is dealing with the consequences of her actions in the first film after she gets given a second chance. In the third film, she uses what happened in her past to help another character.
No offense - None taken xD
Maybe send this vid to JJ abrahams, seems like he hit every single NO NO with Rise of Skywalker.
It was such big disappointment! I WANTED MORE BEN!
I wanted so much to see his redemption really delved into!
@@Tinuvielthefair I know right, the infuriating thing is that you can see the basics are there for a good story, it just wasn't executed well at all - using all the basic tropes any semi decent author would try to avoid.
YES. Like just imagine if jj hadnt decided to reboot ep 8 and had redeemed ben at the start of ep 9 instead. Redeemed ben + hux as main villain = solid plot ground. I only like exactly 4 scenes from tros, but I will give jj this, the memory scene between Ben and Han... perfection.
That’s why I loved tlj so much, Kylo’s arc was angst on angst with conflicted emotions and some more angst with a generous pinch of horniness. Rian truly followed the perfect redemption setup beat for beat.
Jas thank you I could not have put this better
You should have finished Avatar before filming this video, it would have been perfect
0:17 Merphy is so in love with reading she reads TV shows instead of watching them 📖 lmaooo
I like a villain who has some good qualities since the beginning, and instead of change or 'redemption', he just begins to look more and more sympathetic when his story arc unfolds. At some point, you simply don't _care_ about anything evil he has done but see him more as a protagonist, who might have some bad qualities, perhaps fighting against some much more detestable villain. No redemption, no conversion, no justifications for his evil acts -- just gradually beginning to root for him. (Extra points if the previous good guys begin to look like lame losers who just can't deal with the more detestable villain.)
Not every character is redeemable. I see so many times characters are redeemed despite the horrific things they’ve done and that’s just not believable to me. Remember that the worse you make a character, the more you have to show a change over time. Most redemption arcs are horribly rushed. I think it’s important to remember to that there is a moral line-once your character crosses that, no matter what you do, you may not be able to redeem them in the eyes of your readers.
Forgiveness is not earned and is not dependent on the forgiven, but on those forgiving. Trust and respect are earned. With true, repentant redemption, struggle must be real, consequences still stand, responsibility must be taken, remorse must be genuine and change must be visible over time.
Imma just say that in Red queen, there's a maniacal villain who IS deeply - to the point where it's almost sick - in love with a good character, but he doesn't change his side because of the way he was raised. It is extremely sad for me to read but it's so dang satisfying...
Jaime would’ve had a good redemption arc if it wasn’t for that last episode in season 8.
"I'm almost done with season 1!"
Oh, my sweet, sweet summer child...
No but seriously, could be that this is just my little fangirl moment, but when I was watching season 1 when I was younger, I was obsessed, but only because it was entertaining. Season 2 is when this show became so much more and tapped so many mature themes... It is amazing. Seriously amazing.
Kinda on the subject of good guys turning bad: I don't actually like it when the hero kills the villain. I mean, we talk about villains with 'excuses' that drove them to murder, but then is the villain's villainy the 'excuse' that drives the hero to murder?
This is why I love the end of The Lion King: Simba refuses to kill Scar, saying 'No Scar, I'm not like you'. Instead, Scar is destroyed by the hyenas, the result of his own evilness. His bad actions came back to bite him on the bottom, so to speak.
well said!!
Heroes killing villains is a heroic act. Murder is when the killing is done wrongfully
@@mrana2424 that entirely depends on the motive. Characters can do virtuous acts for sinful reasons. If you kill a mass murderer but your reason for killing them is because their death will profit you in some way instead of for what they are doing/did, then it is a questionable action at best and a selfish if not malicious action at most.
I think the "The Broken Empire" trilogy by Mark Lawrence has a really interesting take on redemption. We're introduced to a sadistic, prideful and violent young man. The narrative switch's back and forth between the present and the past. The protagonist Jorg Ancrath is never really "redeemed" he's more explained and matured. His actions are rarely really justified but they are vindicated through the story.
The best redemption arc in history: Zuko
I mean, he literally applied to everything you said.
Clari P yee
Best redemption arc goes to Arthur Morgan or John Marston.
6:50 a character that starts off gray, almost abandons the good guys to save himself, but then comes back to do the right thing at the end: Han Solo
There was something I think I've only seen once-where an antagonist (only "evil" in the eyes of the other faction) had a growing curiosity in the religious faith of the other side, and by the point it got to the big army battle, a priest had said that his spear would pierce one of the leaders, and when it did, he said "the battle is lost, their God is with them." After the battle, he converted.
So the concept is, repeated encounters where the protagonist pulled something off/was right about something over and over again, sowing doubt in the antagonist's mind up to the point that they started doubting themselves so much that they came to the decision to change/join sides, and work their way from there.
You've never seen a grey character becoming "good" through teaming up with the protagonist? Doubt it, it's Han Solo and many other characters in books too
When I first saw the title, I was immediately thinking of the redemption arc in the avatar. I can't help it avatar has the best redemption arc I've ever seen/read. For me snape’s redemption is nothing compared to avatar.
The point of Snape wasn't redemption, his point was being a complex and conflicted character. He was never interested in redeeming himself, he just wanted to avenge Lily.
ThePreciseClimber true but a lot of peole see it as a redemption
@@jolienvandamme2909 Well, that's on them. Should morally bad characters never do good things, even when it makes perfect sense and is in-line with their motivation? Even Voldemort performed a few good deeds during his Wizard Hitler career.
“i wouldn’t call it a redemption arc if they do a good act right before they die” I FELT LIKE THAT WAS DIRECTED TOWARDS SNAPE
"No excuses, no mercy."
This is what I use as a writer when it comes to character building and arcs.
Though we tell fiction, we can't forget what makes us love fiction, stories. As well love and relate to said characters.
Yes, we have heroes who can be gods or monsters but in the end they're "human". As in have human flaws and characteristics like us, the readers. We go through things some worse than others. However in the end we look to stories to escape, to learn, to be inspired. Escape our problems and pain. Learn how to deal with said pain. Or be inspired to have the courage face our pain or problems.
Which is why I hate simple, or, "easy" characters and arcs or development. Hero or villain.
Which is why I love "blanks" arc in avatar.
Redemption arcs are tricky. Often they're done with secondary characters, rather than the primary antagonist, so time can become a factor. How much do you give? The writer doesn't want to dedicate so much that it takes the reader out of the main plot entirely. Also, what are you redeeming? What is the goal? Absolution? An situational outcome? Vengeance? Or more likely, a combination of several motivations. And with whom does the act of redemption put the character in conflict. This alone can layer the arc in ways that become exceedingly complex and demand enormous chunks of page time to flesh out.
Knowing all this, it become a tightrope walk between pacing and depth.
For it to work, they are supposed to at least one redeeming trait. In that, we are able to see that they are capable of good. And let this manifest every now and then till we reach the turning point. Here they see how much misdeeds they are to reflect on and drive towards trying to undo their wrongs.
*SPOILER ALERT*
That's why Zuko had a good redemption Arc. We see good in him the episode, "The Storm," and able to root for him with Iroh to change his life course.
Good morning, everyone, again. I hope you're all having a great day and staying safe and clean.
I'm excited for this installment of Dear Authors lol.
Can't wait for a review on Avatar, because the story is so good, and the characters have such depth.
This sort of thing always makes me think of early Once Upon a Time. They did really well with that at the beginning of the show.
I thought Once did some incredible redemption arcs. Hook's arc was fantastic, since his past caught up pretty regularly and watch the way he dealt with each situation was great!
Rumple was also just really satisfying to me.
Regina's arc was awesome.
I was thinking of that too, but the only one I liked was Rumple's arc, and I hated him dying in the end. Regina could have been axed and it would have satisfied me immensely. Yeah, both she and Rumple were responsible for the curse, but he did it to find his son while she did it to get revenge against Snow, who was a child when she was tricked by Cora. Everything Regina did at the start was extremely selfish and petty, and I could never bring myself to like her, even when they were shoving it down the viewer's throats. She even says at one point that she regrets none of the evil things she did! How could we accept her redemption when she flat out says she doesn't regret anything?
@Hans Hanzo Maybe, but it brought him back to who he was at the start. Rumple was a decent guy who just didn't want to get killed. I always thought everyone was too hard on him for that. If a psychic told you something that vague, and you interpreted it to mean you were definitely going to die, and on top of that never know your kid, would you stick around? He didn't even believe her at first. And he ended up sacrificing himself. Twice. Could you honestly see Regina doing that?
since you're reading Percy Jackson (no spoilers tho) there are some redemption arcs in that series that make a lot of sense and gives more meaning into characters' actions that show in the end, these are just kids that we're dealing with.
Hm, *that* finale always gets me.
@@pretendtheresaname9213 stop it, you're gonna make me cry again
Throughout this whole video I was thinking about Kylo Ren. Everything the comments and you suggested should not be done to a villain's redemption arc was done to Kylo Ren.
Adhunik Manav I knooooow it’s so sad cause it was set up really well but then they just totally botched it
The darker shade of magic series has one if the best redemption arcs I've seen in a while, the character doesn't start of utterly evil but he does some reprehensible things but as the series progresses we see the thought process behind his actions and how he changes.its so slow but so good and that's the best way when u slowly find urself loving a character that u disliked at the beginning.
Ohh perfect, putting a redemption arc in my story so this will be useful.
I'm really glad that my story already has some of these suggestions, hopefully that means it's something people would actually read. For example 18:58. Spoilers ;)
I have a redemption arc for both of my protagonist.
7:25 the hatred of one specific book series radiates off the screen. And you're right and you should say it
Please, I gotta know, which series?
@@Newfiecat ACOTAR series by SJ Maas
[SPOILERS]: actual LI for the main character spends the first book sexually assaulting her and this is hand waved because they're soulmates and other reasons (that do not constitute a legitimate redemption arc).
Now I know I'm not the only one thinking about that character hahahahah
I mean I don't think that counts as a redemption arcat all, more like.. idk, plot twist or something :D
Hero: don't be bad that wrong let's be friends
Villain: okay
Dear Authors: Good Foreshadowing! I would love if you decided to do that video. I think it's very dificult for people to sometimes find the line between giving things away and hardly allowing the readers to guess or suspect what might happen next. Love your videos by the way!
I get why everyone loves Zuko's redemptions arc. His redemption go's back and forth like the struggle you should have when switching your perspective drasticly. I would love more writers to take that as the example of a good arc
You probably won’t read this, but I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Bojack Horseman! He has a GREAT redemption arc. It feels very real to me. Not only do other main characters have their own ideas of his change (either doubt, suspicion, or encouragement) , but he still falls on bad behavior, as to say he’s not perfect. It also happens gradually to trough out the series as he struggles for it, so it feels earned.
Edit- In other words, please watch Bojack Horseman. It starts off slow at first, but it really gets better over time and is one of my favorite shows of all time.
Dog-Ears with Dylan How I never heard that book!? Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I’ll be sure to check it out!
Agreed. To me the main theme of the show is forgiveness and I think that's awesome. Bojack's arc is excellent.
forever my favorite video series of yours this is so interesting and interactive DONT YOU EVER STOP DOING THIS
Highly recommend watching “The Good Place”...that’s all I’m gonna say lol
One reason I like watching these "I'm frustrated when authors do this," or "here's a way to do this kind of thing well," is in realizing how much of this stuff *isn't* in the trilogy I'm writing. I don't have a redemption arc, I've got a character arc that spans the trilogy (no light switch flip changes,) and while I *kind of* have a love triangle, my character absolutely knows who she *should* be with, but her feelings for the other person persist even though she knows he's awful. So it's more of a personal war of head vs heart.
This is a long winded way of saying these videos have really helped me. :)
This just proves what people have said all along-girls like bad guys. You even prove it by having it a part of your fiction. If it wasn’t true it wouldn’t be so appealing.
These have been really helpful for me. I’m trying to write a book at the moment, and these videos got me excited to write again, and helped me change my book to make it better. I got new ideas and took things out and am more excited about my book than ever.
Thank you so much for making these
Just discovered you today and watched, I think, all of your Dear Authors videos. I'm a writer, and I really appreciate watching these because it makes me think hard about my stories and my characters, and I can make a quick checklist for myself of what I have and have not done and what I can fix.
Merphy: no spoilers!
Every comment: has spoilers
😑😑😑😑
But the Grinch’s heart grew THREE sizes!
This is my favourite video series.
Thanks for doing them.
I love this video so much I saved it to my 'editing' playlist -- reminders for myself when I'm finalizing my own (so far unpublished) work :)
This video really made me think about Catra from She-Ra and all the different ways she could go as a character.. here's to hoping her arc works out well.
4:19 "I still view you as a villain because that's all you've ever been."
Fans of Kylo Ren need to learn this.
I am a fan that completely agrees with this.
As someone who wants to be an author, this is series is very helpful! Thank you so much I’m learning so much :)
you have no IDEA how much this video helped me. i've been trying to flesh out a new novel idea for a while now, and i've been outlining characters and plots for weeks but this video here is what has finally flipped the switch for me. i originally went into my planning thinking my MC would be morally grey and be evil and then slightly good at the end but now i know that's not the natural way to go for my story. i'm looking forward to playing with that character more and making them have reasons for thinking good is wrong and living with that "ingrained" sense of corruption, and slowly getting worse instead of better. i'm so excited to actually start writing now, and i was worried i never would so THANK YOU for sharing your genius mind with us.
6:43
Think Uncle Iroh in the sense that he’s from the fire nation and is an ex war dog and general, but in the show does a lot of things for the main character even if it goes against his culture
When I hear Redemption Arcs, I think about Regina aka The Evil Queen in Once Upon a Time. I liked how she was the bad guy in the beginning of the serie and then become a hero :) she was one of the most interesting character in the serie. :)
Xena Warrior Princess entire premise is Xena seeking redemption for her past and it was such a compelling story to follow (the ending still makes me cry.) Once Upon a Time also had many cool redemption arcs that were a joy to watch.
I wonder hiw good it will be if I write a book where the villain turns into a hero but the hero turns into a villain
One of the worst redemption arcs I've read was in this ya fantasy. The book as a whole was kind of a disappointment but that "redemption" made no sense. The brother of the main character was awful and dismissive to her the entire time and apparently it's been that way for years, yet in the last chapter he did a complete 180 and looked to his sister for advice and gave her the reins when shit was going down. What's worse is the reason he did this is because his sister did something to "make him see the light", but she had been doing and saying the same things throughout the entire book and he dismissed her every time. It just pissed me off
What book is it?
To make that better, the sister could've slowly proved herself throughout the entire book and make it so the brother was secretly a coward(develop that of course) and when the going got tough, he gave her the reins. He would feel ashamed of himself and try to overcome his cowardice and arrogance because he realized what a jerk of a brother he was and wants to be a better brother and person.
insert keysmash here jones o god that sounds exactly like noelle and her brother from black clover
The only down side to what is a fantastic arc
I love it when a character slowly becomes a better person
As a person attempting to write a novel, I find you channel most helpful! Having readers' opinion is certainly a great way to know what I should keep and what I should remove. Thanks a lot! I've been working on my novel for about 5 years (it's a dark fantasy / low fantasy novel) and it's a loooot of work, so I just hope I'll be done with it before 2023! I wish I had readers who would tell me what's good and what's bad, but I'm actually kinda afraid to let them know my WIP, which is far from perfect, or even good enough.
Anyway, thanks a lot! I love your channel!
After watching this I’m REALLY curious what your thoughts are on the way Kylo Ren / Ben Solo was developed in Star Wars... do you think it was executed well?
Maya Boone I think it was set up very well in the first 2 movies but the third one kind of botched it and gave him a sort of “redeemed in one scene and suddenly he’s perfect and good and on the light side”. Which is pretty disappointing cause he was one of my favorite characters of all time.
@@gryotharian I can definitely see where you're at, and I too thought TROS could have done more with his character. However like you said, I thought they did do a good job in the first two movies of showing how conflicted he was, and then in the final movie he just finally tipped in the right direction after struggling between them for so long. I loved the fact that he wasn't a cut and dry villain, and you could just tell the guilt and agony he was going through as he saw the consequences of his actions (can we talk about Adam Driver's acting please?). The scene in TLJ when Rey calls him a monster and he says "yes I am" gives me chills, and I was bawling in the moment he had with Han Solo in the Rise of Skywalker. While it might have been a bit rushed, I think the buildup was sufficient to make it believable. I still think he's one of the best written villains I've encountered :)
Maya Boone I agree Adam Driver is a fantastic actor, and the Han Solo scene in TROS was amazing, but it didn’t really feel quite as earned as it could’ve, cause they didn’t really show his conflict in the first half of the movie, it just sort of seemed like they ignored all his development from TLJ went back to his TFA character, and then, once again, immediately after the Han Solo scene he was like a totally different person, the “just being generic good guy post redemption” like talked about in the video. I think it was done so close to perfect but they just missed out on some key things. All they’d have had to do, was show his conflict in the first half, and then don’t fuckin, pointlessly kill him off at the end, so he can live to face all the bad things he’s done, and get actually, properly redeemed.
That’s a good point. I guess it just didn’t bother me as much as it did others :)
Jamie lannisters arc in the show was ruined so let's hope the books fix it
George doesn't need to fix it. As of Dance with Dragons, Jamie's arc is still intact. George just needs to not descend into misogyny. Which should be easy for him. Dude's a feminist.
daft banna can he even have an arc he tried to kill a 7 year old
@@fredbarker9201 He can. And he did. Jamie tried to kill Bran because he wanted protect his family. He's one of most popular characters in the books now. Honestly, that shit that happened in Season 8 was like running a perfect marathon for more than 7 seasons only to trip up with less than a second left in the race. While also telling his biggest fan to go fuck herself.
Lord Odysseus I’ve been saying the show sucks since season 5
Aside from the fact that the show generally sucked after the fourth season, I have to say that Jaime's so beloved "redemption moment" in the show isn't really a redemption moment at all. It's a case of "I dun it for the family", which doesn't actually change him as a character. Jaime is a grey character and your opinion of him really shouldn't change during the bath scene, it's seeing his point of view more than a redemption, so if you hated him beforehand and don't hate him after hearing his side you're pretty naive or hypocritical.
I've been searching in blogs and online articles for readers opinions and, what they want and dislike and find it on TH-cam. xD I know what I want in fantasy books and such, but wasn't sure what today's readers like. This is helping. It's nice to know not much has changed readers want a good story well written with engaging charters and none of the stuff that sucks. I read my Dad's library growing up, from fantasy, mystery, westerns, horrors all of it. You really can tell when a book is going to be good it sucks you right in. :) I haven't found one like that in a long time and it makes me sad. Maze runner was close though. (It's not a fantasy, I really want a really good dark adventure fantasy with a female pov.)
Btw, thank you for having captioning on your videos, without them I have to max out the volume.
I missed the community post for this one! Still always excited for a new dear author video. Probably wouldn't have had anything new to say anyway, my opinions so far seem to be quite common. Which I guess is a good thing?
Edit: I agree about the idea of anyone being able to be redeemed. I think it could be done with any character no matter how evil but to make it work I think the character would need to face some consequences of their actions and certainly not have everyone forgive them.
The being gray at the beginning than turning into a hero is something that i love to see. I think it was well executed in Sarah J Maas' Throne of Glass series with Manon Blackbeak.
I mean in the beginning she wasn't good or bad, she was a brutal bad ass trained to desire nothing except returning her homeland to it's former glory then the people around her fall to the dark side, so she rises to the more righteous path. In my opinion, I think it's a good example of that.
Yeah I agree but I really hated Rhys because he was never redeemed. It was just that he was ‘protecting his city’ it annoyed me so much
@@gray5105 i do kind of Agree but i feel like Sarah did something different in the 'Court of thorn and roses' series because it felt like he never set out to even get redemption like he accepted that he had done terrible things and just continued into a good nature, like he had already condemned himself or something. I don't know if I'm getting myself across well. With Rhys, he never needed to prove to the hero gang that he was a good guy because he kind of made the hero gang. That way he lived with the torment and the reparcussions of his bad deeds but never really seeked out redemption. And yes, the fact that feyre justified everything he did was bloody annoying😂😂
BEST Redemption arc EVER: Zuko, from Avatar, The Legend of Aang
Not your Problem yee
I recommend the movie A Silent Voice, the whole thing is about the weight of your actions and the process of redemption after the fact. Also about communication and explores forgiveness for the wronged and the redeemed character learning to forgive themselves long after they've changed. Super emotional and satisfying.
Merphy's videos are whats getting me through these stressful times.
You know what? I think a redeemed villain doesn't necessary need to become the heroes' friend, because that is really dumb and unrealistic. Yes, villains need to apologize to the people they harmed and stuff but I believe it's better for them if they just find new friends and new opportunities to be better far from the heroes. I think this might help the villain to start from 0 with someone else, and making a good friendship. Let me make an example: Let's say that Character A has always bullied character B because they have problems at home. Character A realizes that what they're doing is wrong, and apoligizes. Of course, for character B it would be difficult to forgive them, so he denies it him at first. Character A needs to earn it. And that means, of course, repairing their damage. Character B feels better but still can't completely forget the damage Character A has done. Character B doesn't hate character A anymore, but they are not ready to be friends either (because, let's be honest, if someone hurt you mentally you wouldn't just become friends with them, even though they redeemed themselves, because the harm is already done). Now I think character A should try becoming friends with other people,you know, to start from 0 after realizing their mistakes, and promising themselves to not harm people anymore. Maybe yes, character A can help character B sometimes, but it is better to leave them like people who don't hate each other, but aren't friends either. (I am terrible at explaining, sorry guys)
If any of you personally know any authors, please tell them to watch this series 🙏🙏
Thanks for this series! I love listening to these videos and everyone’s take on them! I was wondering, since you mentioned you can only name a couple great redemption arcs, could you share which stories they belong to?
This is great! The slow and challenging redemption arches are the best! So satisfying. Kind of going off your last comments about which acts are redeemable and which are not, I personally think that all are to some extent depending on how the character attempts to redeem themselves. I know it may seem like a cop out answer but I feel like more horrific acts should take longer and more effort to redeem versus smaller and less evil acts, you know what I mean?
The story I’m currently writing has a main character who slowly descends into evil over the course of the series, and they are constantly shifting between good and bad behaviour/motivations, and until the latter portion of the story they always choose wrong. When they finally choose right, I didn’t want to fully redeem them, but instead give them another chance. However, this happens at the very end leaving no room for a redemption meaning any major improvements would occur off-page, with an epilogue showing them taking that new chance. Is this a bad choice with what people said about showing redemption arcs?
Don’t do off page. Take everything you just wrote in this post and apply that to a series or character that you like and enjoy reading. Would you feel okay with off page or would you feel a bit meh about it?
Having readers on a hold like throughout the book, driving up the good/bad shifting, and then leaving major improvements to off page? Even if it’s amazing, I’d still want to read those improvements and go through them same as that character is going through them. Just my two cents though! ☺️
Thankyou. I’ll definitely at least have a good think about how I might start shifting things around to make sure it isn’t clunky.
Megan Oldfield You’re welcome! One thing I like to do is read it as if it’s a book I picked up out of the blue. Also take a bit of time away from it, do whatever to get what you wrote out of your mind, and then read what you wrote.
That's good advice. Thanks!
Megan Oldfield No problem. Hope it helps!