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A beautiful, profound lecture-a perfect one to listen to at Christmas. I think I'll make it an annual tradition.

Serena Joy Waterford

Serena Joy Waterford

Serena Joy Waterford

Paul's piece "Against Christian Civilization" is probably my favorite First Things piece. Brutal, undeniable and timely. I'm not sure where Christianity goes from here, actually, after Paul's piece. Because he's right. Read it.

30 minutes in and you’ll finally get to Kingsnorth

A very interesting speech as ever. I am not a Christian, but, perhaps for the wrong reasons, in Mr Kingsnorth’s view, I am intensely curious about the church and its role in the history of my home (England). I’m at a stage in my life when, along with all my other beliefs (unthinking leftism, feminism…) I am re-evaluating EVERYTHING. I’d like to make a few comments from that perspective. I had the privilege of being at the Unherd Club listening to Ayaan Hirsi Ali speak a few days after her bombshell article was published. I would suggest that there is more to her conversion than was possible to write in that piece, which would have been severely limited by word count. The ‘culture war’ aspect was perhaps the dominant theme, and it served brilliantly as clickbait. However, having listened to her speak I would be inclined to wait for her book and a more comprehensive account before passing judgement. She’s taken the plunge (and caused controversy) by publicly asserting her conversion. Maybe it’s premature. She admitted she has much learning to do, but she spoke not only of the cultural / historic aspects and the contrast with her former faith, but also of the spiritual succour she had found, that her years of non-belief had failed to provide, leading her to depression and dependence on alcohol. In short, I suspect there is much more to her public conversion than sticking it to the Islamists / woke. As to Jordan Peterson, as far as I know, he makes no claim to be a Christian. I’ve been watching his Gospel series, where he makes repeated reference to God and Christ. But he defers to the Christians in the room as appropriate - Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant are all represented. I sense a touch of pride in this account. Has Mr Kingsnorth forgotten what it’s like NOT to believe? It can’t be so long ago, can it? I don’t think JBP is trying to convert anyone. He is a psychologist and cultural commentator, and his mission has been, in my view, to alert people to the dangerous hubris and spiritual emptiness of atheism and atheistic ideologies and the murderous results of same. I would say he has done a fantastic job. To me, as a former new atheist and National Secular Society member, who recoiled at the idea of Christianity, to my shame principally for the reason that it was so deeply uncool, he has brought these ancient stories to life, and made me realise that there is deep wisdom, indeed truth within them. He has not ‘brought me to Christ‘, nor is that his aim or desire. But he, and C S Lewis and Francis Spufford and Glen Scrivener and others, have brought me to the water’s edge, as another commenter put it. I’m not entirely sure, where to go next. This is likely to be a long-drawn-out process, if only because, I recognise that being a true Christian would cost so much - perhaps more than I am willing to give. I know this, despite getting most of my religious education from the likes of the good professor. So perhaps he’d doing something right after all.

Beautiful. Challenging. Maybe impossible?

“Christ or Nothing” is also one of my favorites. “To Wonder Again” is also excellent.

Just read this online. Feels like one of the most important things I’ve ever read to be honest.

Good choice! It’s my favourite as well. It has had an outsized influence in my whole view of things: religious, aesthetic, and political. And it’s beautifully written to boot.

MIne is hands down no competitors Fig Leaves and Falsehoods by Janet E. Smith Been using it since it was published. I teach at the local college and no article better details who being an academic and thinker BLINDS you to general facts and normal life. She is not one of those academics, but she is a miracle escapee. She talks about lying and how things are in real life , with evil and good in a death struggle.

Paul is advocating for a valid and true strand of ancient Christianity. This is the Christianity of the desert fathers that build the Christian civilization.

Begins 21:27.

its not liberalism that failed..its us responding as humans always have to the environment in which they find themselves with some lucky enough to excel and the less fortunate who just get dragged trough the muck. nothing new under the sun. so i don’t know why you appear surprised by it all.

Megan in my opinion is a David going against Goliath...And those who tried to Brow Beat resistance to what happened during CV19 don't have the Discernment of a Crash Test Dummy...Doctors who think it good medicine to inject small or minute amounts of poison directly into the blood steam of their patients are nothing but Dr. Jeckyl Mr. Hyde MAD with the love of money Doctors...Do you know why there is NO Autism in the Amish Community...They don't VAXX the kids...Can you say "The Devils in the Details." It appears many in Christian Leadership CAN"T...God help us...

I still like First Things but your Deneen and Dreher fixation is annoying. They are both wrong. Yes, what they see of sickness in society is sickness, but their juvenille recommendations and immature reading of the Constitution is inexcusable. Do you ever actually pay attention to Robert Reilly and Thomas G West ?

I really loved this lecture. It's opened a door for me into Christianity which I have always before seen as too doctrinal, too structured, too much like the machine.

Yes! Well done!

As an Anabaptist, this basically expresses my faith in a nutshell. God bless you, Mr. Kingsnorth.

'it's something I struggle with'...yes, perhaps that's the point, it's not a living faith if you don't? I grew up in a version of Christianity, Quakerism, that effectively 'institutionalised the struggle', and made 'meeting for worship' the time when any of the congregation could get up and express what their conscience and 'communion with the spirit' had brought forth within them, guided by the gospels and the basic values Quakers distilled from them. Sometimes it took a long time to change people's minds. I was astonished to discover that the Quakers who I thought had championed the abolition of slavery from day one, had in fact taken years to be converted to that belief by a maverick they had more or less banished from their midst, but in the end saw the wisdom of. That process never ends as far as I can see.

Beware of people who speak of cycles of history or try to predict the future.

This was such an inspiring lecture. Thank you and may the peace of Christ be with you.

Listen, and try to think if you remember what we will speak of now. Listen,-perhaps you catch a hint of an ancient state not quite forgotten; dim, perhaps, and yet not altogether unfamiliar, like a song whose name is long forgotten, and the circumstances in which you heard completely unremembered. ²Not the whole song has stayed with you, but just a little wisp of melody, attached not to a person or a place or anything particular. ³But you remember, from just this little part, how lovely was the song, how wonderful the setting where you heard it, and how you loved those who were there and listened with you. 7. The notes are nothing. ²Yet you have kept them with you, not for themselves, but as a soft reminder of what would make you weep if you remembered how dear it was to you. ³You could remember, yet you are afraid, believing you would lose the world you learned since then. ⁴And yet you know that nothing in the world you learned is half so dear as this. ⁵Listen, and see if you remember an ancient song you knew so long ago and held more dear than any melody you taught yourself to cherish since. 8. Beyond the body, beyond the sun and stars, past everything you see and yet somehow familiar, is an arc of golden light that stretches as you look into a great and shining circle. ²And all the circle fills with light before your eyes. ³The edges of the circle disappear, and what is in it is no longer contained at all. ⁴The light expands and covers everything, extending to infinity forever shining and with no break or limit anywhere. ⁵Within it everything is joined in perfect continuity. ⁶Nor is it possible to imagine that anything could be outside, for there is nowhere that this light is not. 9. This is the vision of the Son of God, whom you know well. ²Here is the sight of him who knows his Father. ³Here is the memory of what you are; a part of this, with all of it within, and joined to all as surely as all is joined in you. ⁴Accept the vision that can show you this, and not the body. ⁵You know the ancient song, and know it well. ⁶Nothing will ever be as dear to you as is this ancient hymn of love the Son of God sings to his Father still. 10. And now the blind can see, for that same song they sing in honor of their Creator gives praise to them as well. ²The blindness that they made will not withstand the memory of this song. ³And they will look upon the vision of the Son of God, remembering who he is they sing of. ⁴What is a miracle but this remembering? ⁵And who is there in whom this memory lies not? ⁶The light in one awakens it in all. ⁷And when you see it in your brother, you are remembering for everyone. A Course In Miracles (1975) Author: _Jesus Christ_

She is criticizing Christians because we strive or politics from the gospel of Jesus Christ. She is correct the left have the ideal of an open inclusive society. She conflated the challenge of caring n sharing with rot and decay of her society. Her problem is with Jesus's teaching.

No. Christendom forever. Catholic World Empire

A very timely lecture as the world falls headfirst into the false light movement. Thanks for all your work, Paul!

I thank God for First Things and events like this. They are rare these days.

Much to chew on with this excellent talk. I could listen to Mr. Kingsnorth speak for ages, and this talk was no exception. I hesitate to offer any criticism, not only because I am about as baby of a Christian as they come, but also because I feel a sort of compulsive desire to agree as a knee-jerk to such an eloquently presented, thought provoking, and challenging presentation. I think there are a couple of missing ingredients to the case that adjust the lighting a bit, which I've been digesting since I first watched this talk. First, on the subject of the (former(?)) atheists arriving at Christianity, or its culture/trappings/faith-stripped practices and other peripheries, at least, as a balm for the crises of modernity, I think that Kingsnorth has it inside-out, and perhaps wants too much of brand-new, or even not-yet, Christians. Yes, they are wading in the shallower peripheries, but what does any newcomer in any context arrive at first but the periphery, going deeper as they approach the center? I tend to extend a little grace; as far as Peterson goes, he's unfailingly careful not to speak "as a Christian," which gives him credit with me - he seems to be feeling his way in from the periphery - I pray that he does ultimately find the center, and I'm thankful that his imperfection is guiding as many into the depths as it seems to be (myself included). My opinion would be very different if Peterson were speaking as a Christian, but he unequivocally, and very carefully, isn't. It's obviously important to recognize that periphery for what it is, but how else does anyone get to the center of a thing but through the peripheries first? Especially such a big thing as the Gospel message and its implications for souls and civilizations, and to a person so steeped in the modern impossibility of its literality? Kingsnorth's critique of the Christian-dabbling or newly-believing "dissident right" types absolutely has a nugget of truth and fairness in it in comparison to thinkers who have discovered and embraced the center in faith, but ultimately seems overweighted in service of his argument. Secondly, I continue to contemplate the "civilization" element of Mr. Kingsnorth's critique. There's a smattering of the Rousseauian in his perspective that I'm grappling with, and I suspect the theme that might reconcile it all is the Fall. Equating "civilization" with "cities" seems a stretch even at the level of the dictionary. Even a city can be more or less civilized (I'd argue that that depends deeply on the overlap between that city's culture and Christianity, if not in True belief in the Gospel at least in the value of its behavioral norms and base philosophical assumptions). The characterization of the pre-Fall Edenic world is that of "garden," which implies a "civilizing" sort of influence (God's direct presence, in the case of Eden?) beyond the state of nature. I would argue that we are a "civilization" to the extent that we properly exercise ourselves as Imago Dei, and that we are "wilderness" insofar as we fail to do so, giving in and over to our Fallen brokenness or even deeper to purposeful Evil. The wall can enclose a paradisal garden that is in ultimate and personal union with God and His purpose, or a dystopian nightmare hellscape a la "Escape from New York." The periphery alone isn't enough to get us to Christendom, and Kingsnorth's critique is well taken here by me, I think, that the price for neglecting the center for the periphery is "awe"ful. But as much as the pastoral hermit Christianity in rejection (or, at least, skepticism) of civilization, the Enemy dwells and tempts as strongly in the wilderness as inside the walls. The battle is, and has always been, within human hearts, and the state of those hearts is what makes the state world, no matter how dense the population. Retreating from civilization to the wilderness is not a guarantee to find God... indeed, in my (very novice) reading of the Bible, it seems like the Devil tempts there all the more strongly. I've over-rambled here quite a lot there, especially considering the topic, but do want to reiterate my thanks to Mr. Kingsnorth for an excellent talk; it's lived rent-free in my head for a couple of days already, and likely will for longer. Provoking and disquieting in exactly the right measures. I'll be listening again, and look forward to the inevitable commentaries and responses from other of my favorite speakers for more insights on these ideas.

A grounding lecture by Mr Kingsnorth. I think that Western Civilisation is only remaining in the legal system and bureaucratic administration structures. Unfortunately these two things are been inflated and in the process are been reinvented, for example corporate law in the USA and hate crime laws in Europe. So justice (based on Christian principals)is rapidly been denied. So to this end, a saint who is a lawyer, judge or legislature is much needed. We should really think of those things in Western civilisation we need to retrieve and those things we need to make obsolete. The pro-life movement in USA is a good example of the former.

21:30 intermission ends

So not like Jesus.

St Anthony also gave away his sister's inheritance, forcing her into poverty.

The people who created the hospital were the Hospitaler Knights, a Crusading order.

The practice of true christian faith will naturally create a "Christian civilization". Paul is advising against actively using the christian faith as a tool to prop up the crumbling post christian western civilization.

Sometimes old lefties continue to be old lefties (in spite of a conversion). Kingsnorth can't leave his "uncivilisational" biases behind. Why the heck would he change his tune when he's invested so much effort into his "uncivilised" (dark mountain etc) writing? The simple answer is that it's all wrong. He. has no alternative to make for a world without civilisation. Go back to the forest Paul.

Amen

I am so glad I found this. I have had this nagging feeling for some years now that as a follower of Jesus & what he told us to do, I am just interpreting it to my own convenience. What am I going to do about ? I certainly will not take up my cross & use it as a sword. My desire is to do what’s right but I live as a man of God in a culture al soup that speaks every minute of everyday that we should do whatever is our will. Would greatly appreciate your thoughts?

Getting closer to Rudolf Steiner though not yet as comprehensive deep nor as accurate but getting there.

Did Paul (K) ever quote Paul (the A.)? Would the latter have agreed with the former?

Great talk Paul! Re Jesus admonition to "Resist not evil": Of course Jesus spent his life resisitng evil. So what did he mean? I think he meant "Do not use violence to resist evil". Do it with all the virtues Jesus taught us, love, forgiveness, humility etc. I also believe as Gandhi and others did, that we can/should use the tools of nonviolence. Also I think you are wrong in saying that the issue has been a problem from the start of Christianity. I think Christians believed and practiced nonviolence for the first 300 years, and only abandoned an insistence on it with Constantine. Why Augustine invented the Just War Theory I do not know. But I know it seems to contradict all that Jesus taught in this regard.

Ouch - I feel the keen edge of the Sword of the Spirit dividing asunder deep things within. A Nathan-like rebuke.

What's the name of the guy who cut his balls off because he didn't understand the teachings? And.. if you have two Most pastors and rabbis won't teach on this. Luke 3:11-17 NKJV [11] He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.” [12] Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” [13] And he said to them, “Collect no more than what is appointed for you.” [14] Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?” So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.” [15] Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ or not, [16] John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. [17] His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.” bible.com/bible/114/luk.3.11-17.NKJV Buy a sword to defend yourself.. Luke 22:36-38 NKJV [36] Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. [37] For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” [38] So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.” bible.com/bible/114/luk.22.36-38.NKJV

“Christianity is impractical, it’s intolerable, and it’s awful in the original sense of that word. It’s terrifying and it’s designed to kill you.” Kingsnorth Amen.

Civilization VS Culture ⚖️ ⛪☦️🕊️⛲🕯️📿 Saints Paisios and Anthony, pray for us! "Cyclical" 💫 🌊 ☀️🌳🌙⚓✨🌐 Grace and peace to you.....

Paul was already anti-civ before he converted. So he's also adjusting Christianity to his Christian anti-civilization.

Dr Fr Jamie Franklin (Irreverend podcast) responds to Jordan Peterson and R Dawkins th-cam.com/video/MeCTderSZ5o/w-d-xo.html

Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. (Ephesians 6:13)

Hate evil, love good, And establish justice in the gate!... (Amos 5:15)

Hate evil, you who love the Lord,... (Psalms 97:10)