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Hi Dannirr. The advantage is that I will not have to manually re-probe at the start of every cycle. Instead, I simply call up the program for the part I want to probe/cut and just hit cycle start. I only have to manually probe the first time I run the probing routine for that part. Those offsets will be stored indefinitely in the controller. If you use the same two work offsets for everything you have to manually probe each time.

@@eriksonderlon doesn't that assume the limit switches are perfectly accurate, which they are not?

@@dannirr I should clarify that I AM probing at the start of every cycle but, I don't have to manually jog the probe into position. The probing routine comes from Fusion 360 (not Pathpilot) and is programmed for the geometry of each part much like you would program tool paths. The limit switches could be out as much as 0.010 ( or more) and the probing cycles would still run just fine after homing the machine. The advantage for me is being able to load the probe into the spindle, call up the probing program for whichever parts I am cutting, and just hit 'Cycle Start' and the probe automatically knows where to look for the features it has been programmed to inspect and thus update the WCS. After that, I simply run my cutting program. I need to make a follow-up video showing how easy it is to change from setup to setup and run probing routines back to back with no 'rough probing' or manual jogging of the probe needed. This will illustrate the advantage of having a unique WCS for each part/setup.

@@eriksonderlon Thank you for your ongoing dialog. I understand what you are doing - and I have used the probing routines since David Loomis first released them. Perhaps it's just me, but I still don't see where you have the need for unique WCS for each setup. If you simply set the WCS at the start of your day, by probing a fixed feature (or maybe not even a fixed feature is necessary), you could use the same 2 WCS for everything (lets just say G54 and G55 for example) . As I understand what you are doing, you are probing an existing feature and then correcting it's unique WCS. But you could do the same thing and correct G54 and G55, as when you load up the next setup you're going to probe a feature anyway - and could again correct G54 andG55. Another option of course it to use a pallet system and not even need to reprobe?

@@dannirr Thank you for wanting to dig deeper with me. I still find it preferable to have a unique WCS for each part and setup and the reason all hinges on the fact that I won't have to re-train the probe to run in the right location for each set of different parts I run. Let's say I were to use G54 and G55 only for all of the pairs of different parts that I make. Let's suppose that one set of two identical parts has a distance of two inches between their centers and the tops of both parts sit one inch above the rear vise jaw and that X0Y0Z0 is part center/top for each of the two parts. I rough-probe to set X0Y0Z0 in both G54 and G55. Then I run my Fusion 360 generated probing operations for G54 and G55, this will set the WCS for each part. Now, If I were to run multiple sets of these same two parts, then, for each subsequent set of those same parts I can just run the probing cycle without having to "rough probe" in order to tell the probing cycle where to probe. And yes, I always probe the stock or features on or a milled surface from a previous Op (usually a bore that cuts through the other side). All is good. Now, it's time to change over to a completely different set of two parts (I'm making two at a time). Let's say these two new parts with different geometry from the first set of parts have a distance of three inches between their centers instead of two and that the height above the rear vise jaw is now two inches instead of one. If I were to run the Fusion 360 generated probing Op that I pre-programmed for these new parts without rough probing the new parts, my probe would crash into the stock because it thinks that X0Y0Z0 of G54 and G55 are the previously probed locations from the first set of parts. I am not able to just load the Fusion generated probing Op for these two new parts and hit cycle start. I would have to rough probe the new geometry as X0Y0Z0 has shifted (0.5 inches in X in either direction for each part and 1.00 inch higher for Z, Y may or may not be in the same location). If, however, I dedicate a WCS for each part and setup, Pathpilot will remember the offset that was probed the last time I ran this particular set of parts and will use it as the basis of the probing cycle I am about to run. I can just load the probe, call up the probing Op for the two new parts (let's say they are G56 G57) and hit cycle start. For anyone new listening in, this is all predicated on the fact that I use a Carvesmart soft jaw system that always locates my stock for any given set of parts in the same location in my vise and the position of that vise on the mill table always stays the same. Now, I will admit that there is a feature in Fusion where you can drive the probe from another WCS. Let's say that this WCS is the top left corner of your fixed jaw and that you assign this WCS to G59.3 and never use it for anything else. You could then just use G54 and G55 for every set of two parts. I, however, don't like doing it this way because the WCS for your parts also has to be the top left corner of your fixed jaw and must be modeled correctly in Fusion 360. Also, you would have to pattern your tool paths (which I don't like to do because in the real world, fixtures, soft jaws, etc. can flex and then you're in Fusion making micro-adjustments to your patterning inputs in order to cut accurate parts. This might not be necessary on first Ops but definitely on second and third Ops). One could also duplicate their part and then program a second set of tool paths on the duplicated part but this, too, I would like to avoid. Even if I were running pallets I would still probe actual part features for second and third ops if the tolerances required it and at that point, the probe would most likely be a Renishaw system in the tool changer and would be fully automated.

Thanks advil000!

Len Sherman NYCCNC has outgrown me. I’m just a little guy; can’t afford the new Haas’s and don’t get much out of the videos unloading those beasts. Nothing personal.

Great idea Roger!

I use a height gauge from tooling plate that I use on the mill for this. The base of the plate is zero in Z so those figures can be used as the offsets. I wrote a post-post processor that combines the relevant offset for each tool from a separate text file, so it's a different approach to yours. I end up with a program that's referenced to a dowel on the tooling plate that's X0Y0. That way there are no offsets, the whole program is absolute and you can restart it anywhere with a little care. You've probably seen my setup here... th-cam.com/video/IrlY8qEmO3I/w-d-xo.html Not having a separate manual quill is the achilles heel of these commercial machines in my opinion. It makes life so much easier for setting up and also for drilling and tapping when milling which can be done manually while using the CNC to drive to the centre points. Still, that's a whole other debate!

Or maybe some mql

www.shars.com/4-3-jaw-self-centering-precision-chuck-r8-arbor They sell a 3 inch version as well. Gotta watch the RPMs when using these on a mill. I don't go above 3250rpm and that I feel is pushing it

Thanks... Just ordered it.

Thanks David, the largest diameter stock I turn is 2.25" and I'm limited to about 4.5'' max and that is with only 0.25" inches being held in the 3 jaw chuck with the jaws reversed. Unfortunately, mill turning does not allow for bar pulling... That said, I turn a lot of parts on my mill and they come out great.

Make sure that you only "Touch Z" once per G5x work offset. From your description it sounds like you touched Z for two different tools in the same G5x work offset. Here's another video on doing this from Jason Hughes. It's the same method but will give you another perspective. Cheers!

Hi Erik Thanks for your fast reply, after i watch those video again i my find what went bad. First it was not specified that you have to take a mesured tool for finging the x y 0 of each tool use in it own wcs. After i did that , i place a peace of stock in and find the z height of the higtest tool and hit the offset /touch Z button (one time only). Then went too the other wcs tool location and hit first g0 x0y0 and z o.5 to be shure . And bang 1/2 inch on top . Supper. on question stay in my mind , how to make the part move in the tool is my tool is on both side of the vice. on have to move x+ and the other x- . thanks. Alain

Thanks man! Sorry it's so long!

Erik Colvin No worries. I enjoyed it.

Thank you Eric!

Hey Richard, I wish there were a way to recall all of your offsets in Pathpilot should you decide to use one of them for an alternate setup. Originally, I wanted to keep G54 for regular mill work setting the offset to the back corner of my fixed vise jaw. I have 9 lathe tools though so it had to be used as well. The ad-hoc workaround I did was to literally take short videos with my phone once I had located X, Y, and Z zero for a particular turning tool (using my chamfer mill with a known tool length offset). I press record and show the current tool being zero'd and then pan over to the Offset tab in Pathpilot with the 'work' tab selected and film a few seconds of the offset values it shows for each work offset slot (G54, G55, G56 etc...) so that if I needed to change them, as I will for my G54 when I go back to regular milling, I can. The steps would be: 1. In the MDI input field, enter the work offset you wish to re-set, press enter. 2. Re-reference all three axis and then zero each DRO with the machine in that position. 3. Manually enter the values from your video for that work offset into the MDI line. (G0 X... Y... Z...). The machine travels to that position upon pressing enter. (It might be wise to do this step with no tool or work in the spindle, just be safe) 4. Re-zero each DRO in this new position. Check the numbers in the work offsets window to verify. A bit of a pain, I know. It would be nice if Pathpilot had different banks available, each with nine offsets (or more!). I hope this helped and didn't confuse anyone. Mill Turning is a work around by nature! - Erik

Of course, your mill-turn tool setup would need to be repeatable for this to be relevant. Even though mine is to within the tolerances achievable with a 770, I still quickly re-check each offset every time the vise is switched back and forth between milling and turning and adjust accordingly. The boring block rarely moves.

Another thing I am wondering about. How do you achieve single point threading. Are you using an indexing signal and is that then used to see the exact rpm of the spindle as well?

Hey Ricard, sorry for the late reply. Yes, single point threading without synchronization between the spindle motor and the Z axis stepper motor. I have not modified my spindle with any sensors. I did not think it would be possible but decided to give it a try nonetheless. I have successfully cut both OD and ID 1.5"- 28tpi threads. It took a few attempts to program the proper final thread depth but for the two parts that I'm trying to perfect I think I have a fit that I'm happy with. Why does it work? My best guess is that it's because it's CNC and both the VFD that controls spindle RPM and the Z axis stepper motor that controls the feed are clocked simultaneously by the timing crystal of the computer/controller and because: 1. The spindle remains at a constant RPM throughout the threading operation and, 2. The tool path for each pass is identical (lead-ins and lead-outs, length of actual cutting pass, feed rates, etc.) Somehow there seems to be some sort of sync. Some things I discovered were that, because of the 770's limited horsepower, the spindle RPM must be on the faster side for thread cutting compared to a manual lathe. If it's too slow the spindle motor will bog down in the cut (while the Z feed remains constant) and your thread pitch will be thrown off over the length of the thread. I used both 560rpm @ 20ipm and 980rpm @ 35ipm. I arrived at these feed rates with the formula: 1/tpi X RPM = Feed Rate So 1/28 = 0.035714285714286 0.035714285714286 X 560 = 20 You have to find a whole number RPM that will allow you to have a whole number feed rate (or a xx.x feed rate) because of the values that Pathpilot will accept. Unfortunately, even with a mill-turning modified Tormach post processor for Fusion 360 CAM, you cannot use the lathe threading operation in Fusion. Instead you need to program it as either an OD or ID profile and use either negative stock to leave or model a cylinder whose diameter is the final thread depth you wish to achieve and use that as your model in cam for the threading operation. The actual cutting path must start before and end after tool engagement with the material. Also, the number of cutting passes and depth of cut must be calculated. I used 6 passes with a 0.005 DOC. I'd love for you to give it a go to see if the results are repeatable on a different machine. Who knows, I may just be getting lucky with the thread pitch I am cutting. Perhaps other pitches will or won't work. Pretty cool stuff though. Cheers, Erik

Very cool and very interesting observation with vfd and feeds being synched for multiple passes. This would mean that for a repeated op the spindle will always be in the exact same position during the whole feed. My machine is also a 770 S3 so I guess it would work the same. I will follow this with interest. Thank you so much for the thorough explanation. Are you not a member of the Tormach user group on facebook. I bet there are many more who are interested in this and would be very happy to have you explain. Best regards

Thanks Jason! I'm glad to be of service. The lathe tools are from ebay, Shars, etc. and are 20mm shank width. I chose those because I thought that I could use all the rigidity I could get while still being able to fit four tools in the vise along with the three aluminum 0.90" wide spacers for clearance (the Shars vise is great for that because while their spec lists the jaw opening as four inches it actually opens up to six inches as I think you mentioned in one of your videos). I originally wanted to mount them with two facing one way and two the other but I found that there was not enough X travel when offsetting the vise from center to accommodate the boring tool block. As far as that block goes, yeah, initially I too wanted to drill 3/4" holes so I could use Tormach TTS holders but I realized that they would eat up too much Z travel. For instance, the bottom of that 5/8" Threading bar is actually flush with the table and it's hole is drilled all the way through. The other tools have varying hole depths.

Great. Thanks for the info. I was worried about z height as well, but hadn't actually measured that yet. If you are running out of z on the 770, I definitely will on the 440.

I'm looking forward to more videos!

Got here via a link on cnczone. I don't typically have the time to watch vids this long, but it was mill turning.....so I made the time. :) I've done a fair amount of it, although I still haven't taken the time to make a tool holder. I typically only need two tools. I love the tool 50 idea. I prefer to set my origin at the back of the stock....which I read off the jaw shelf that will be holding it. My chuck has a 3/4" shank on the back, so I can put it directly in the TTS collet. It seats up against the spindle nose and is pretty repeatable. With this idea of setting the chuck as one of the tools, I think I'll see about modeling my chuck and jaws....then I'll set the origin to the face of the chuck.....for now...the back of the stock works well. The next part I'm making doesn't have a carrier. I posted this under Jason's response so that both of you should get notified. I've been sub'd to Jason. I was thinking "How did I miss Erik's channel if he's got a mill turning vid".....then I saw that it was only 6 days old. lol If you can swing the cost, buy another boring/threading bar and dedicate these to the mill.....that way you can cut them off shorter to gain some clearance if needed. Maybe Jason more than Erik. I'm just starting to use fusion for turning. I've been using MachStandardMill up 'til now. Thanks for the ideas and info guys!! Mike

bluehandsvideo Thanks Mike! I'm glad you got something out of it. Yes, these tools are all dedicated to mill-turning and like you mentioned, I did cut down the length of the 3/8" boring bar by two inches. There was way too much chatter happening with the excessive stickout. Where did you find your chuck with the 3/4" shank? I've been thinking about buying a second chuck so can have one with its jaws in the normal position.