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Hi Klaire. This is how I understand it... When I started kiting, the only kites we had were 2-lines. So we needed those long lines, on smaller kites (and at first bigger bidirectional boards) to get the power we needed for waterstarting. As the efficiency and depowerability of kites improved, we saw line lengths go from 40m down to 30 down to 27, then 24 etc. I believe the main reason why people still use longer lines than necessary is just inertia and ignorance. Most instructors learned on longer lines, and that's all they know. And I've noticed many kite instructors are so sure of themselves that they can't (or won't) take on new information :) th-cam.com/video/63wED_ZS3zo/w-d-xo.html It's a part of human nature. When we first started experimenting and learning about how to use shorter lines 15-20 years ago, we got a lot of criticism from instructors who hadn't even tried them lol. And, it's nice to see many years later, that the IKO has started to catch up on some of these short line teaching techniques.

Thanks for that.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in detail. I had watched the link you sent me and understand about the human behavior Thang. I will still continue to use my 8m lines as they are working for me. Keep you posted and once again THANK YOU!

Thanks! Yes it's frustrating to hear people who are supposed to be experts, saying that it's a waste of time. And yes, at 63kg, 23m is much longer than you need to learn! Two important skills are: holding the kite at minimum power at the edge of the window, and how to make an efficient powerstroke to get the power you need. One thing I've learned over the years is that being nervous really slows down the learning process, but there is a reason why your body/brain makes you nervous, it understands that the power may go beyond your control at times. So having the right equipment (incl. length of lines) to keep you at ease is an important advantage. If you haven't had any lessons- I put my beginners on 4m lines until they are quite comfortable with the kite, maybe up to 6m for bodydragging and board practice, then increase the length further. I appreciate your comments and best of luck to you.

@matt-0teachings952 I shortened my lines & now I'm flying, self launching, relaunching in the water & just starting to use one hand to pilot the kite. Awesome 👌 Had a first lesson on long lines & felt good but I'm still going to keep practicing with my short lines in between lessons. Can you practice on short lines for the body drag or is there not enough grunt?

Yes, you can practice all the kite control points with short lines-- bodydragging in all directions (upwind, downwind, across the wind; this requires one handed control), board recovery, relaunch, power strokes, even the first self-rescue. You don't need any "grunt" to practice these. It's much easier to do all this on short lines and prepares you for riding on longer lines. We usually keep people on short lines until just before the waterstart stage. But if you want to practice riding with shorter lines, a good power stroke on 16m lines will give you plenty of grunt in 15 knots of wind, if you are 61 kg and have a good beginner board and a good power stroke :)

Thank you!

Thank you!

Good idea, I should make that video :) I don't usually make pigtails myself, as we tend to have enough lying around from used and broken kites. But the ones I have made were pretty much the same thing as knot/loop adaptors we make for attaching different brands of kites to bars: Take 4 equal lengths of bridle or 2/3mm line, about 30-35 cm and put a figure 8 knot in the middle of each. Then bend them in half and put the two loose ends in a figure 8 knot.

You can do this with a piece of normal kite lines? 0_0 @@matt-0teachings952

I wouldn't use normal kite lines to make pigtails. They would be much to difficult to take off, I think.

Thanks for that :) Will keep that in mind, there are always more topics to make videos of!

You're the legend, Rob, and you know it :)

@@matt-0teachings952 feel like an old man these days, miss the good old days, great videos mate!!!!!!!! :)

Thanks for your input, insight and kind words! Totally agree with you-- adjusting techniques etc. based on the person and on the situation is part of the art (and enjoyment) of teaching kite :) It means having enough tricks in your toolkit to be able to swap out when needed... Very good point about the power stroke, I also agree there and thanks for pointing that out. We also teach "The upstroke is as important as the downstroke," that's when they get lifted out of the water, and it's half the battle. So much easier for the student that way. The thing I've found is to get them to practice some powerstrokes beforehand, making the upstrokes transition straight away back into the downstroke-- so that they don't freeze the kite at 12 o'clock and sink back in the water again... On your point number 2, do you mean that the board is pointed upwind throughout the waterstart? Happy riding...

Yes, thanks for the info! The first upstroke is almost more important than the downstroke for beginners... and in light wind... later they will get used to starting on the downstroke

Thanks for your comment. It totally depends on each person, and the conditions at hand. For example, windsurfers and sailors are used to navigating around the points of sail; if it's someone's first time in an ocean environment then part of the learning curve is just getting used to getting smacked in the face by wave chop, etc. etc. But yes, I think it's reasonable to expect 3-4 days to learn. Maybe not "master" it, but at least get "pretty good" at it. :)

Very welcome :)

s*** can't be helped. Snot be all over the place sometimes when you're in the spray...

Thanks! I thought I knew how to gybe, until I learned that I didn't really know, then I had to practice a lot until I thought I knew again :)

Thanks, glad it helped. And yes, most of our students are up and riding on 14-19m lines, once they get to that point of waterstarting, depending on their weight and the wind strength. I think that a lot of instructors are just so used to riding on 22-26m lines that they think that's what the student needs. And good point about making sure the line setup and flagout is actually done right before going out riding with it :)

Thanks Markus, wise words. We sometimes use the saying in the kite school, "I slow down, so that I can go faster." And, "Accuracy first- speed will follow." Learning and following correct procedure always saves time in the long run, and is safer.

SPLAP, I like it :) Pouce en l'air!

Thanks, those are all good thoughts. One of our catchphrases in the school is, "Take those 4 seconds to check carefully, and you will save a lot of time (and possibly pain)" :)

Nice! I've taught a fair number of pilots to kite, always enjoy it because they appreciate the value of a pre- flight checklist. Also, they already have an intuitive feel for lift/drag, stall point, etc. All the other bits, we still have to teach them lol. And yes, the kite is a wing!

thanks :) hope to see you here again sometime soon.

Please note, this is part of the "train the trainer" series, aimed at instructors-- not at beginners. :) Of course if some beginners enjoy it too, I'm glad. Maybe it's more about epistemology than kitesurfing. Yes I had to look up that word.

@@matt-0teachings952 I saw in the video the long chain of things a beginner should focus on and this will confuse so much. Bring them in a safe environment and do not ask from a beginner to make his environment safe.

@@StepperByStepper Our task is to teach people how to take care of themselves. After their time with us, they'll need to be able to make those decisions on their own. Assessing conditions, choosing a launch spot, tuning the equipment properly, being aware of surroundings-- these are all basic skills that every kiter should have by the time they are riding. Without these, even a "safe environment" ceases to be so. And with them, an imperfect location (i.e., most launch spots) becomes easier to handle.

Glad it was helpful! thanks.

Thanks! Yes, figuring out how to use short lines has helped us make the process easier, faster, and safer...

@@matt-0teachings952 Well ya. lol

@@pickleforknwiggles634 and way less stressful for student and instructor :)

Yes! That's just classical Newtonian physics... :)

Yes! At lower windspeeds, more camber helps produce more power. It's like getting more torque by shifting into a lower gear on a car. But at higher windspeeds, camber produces more turbulence, and are less efficient. So when the wind is up, I can pull on the outhaul to make the sail flatter, and it produces cleaner power and faster speeds. That's my take on it, anyway :)

Glad you enjoyed it!

I think that with bar length, there's a lot of room for personal preference. On most kites you can also slow down the turn response by changing the back line settings on the kite, if you want that. It's a trade-off: A slower-turning kite may feel more stable, but also takes longer and is more difficult to correct and restabilise when it goes out of control. And yes you definitely need a single line flagout system with a low V to use short lines, please see 14:45 to 15:30. We use Airush, it's good for that and for changing line lengths.

Thanks for the comment Luuk. Yes, splices are generally stronger than knots, if done right. I think that the key thing here is, the knot is on a doubled line so you're starting with 2X the breaking strength. And the figure 8 knot is one of the strongest knots. I would be curious to do some controlled tests with "8 knot in doubled line vs. splice." I have done it this way many times over the years, with many kites. I've seen splices break, and lines break, but not yet at the knots, with this arrangement. By the way, this is a cool video: acrossthe.blue/knots-with-dyneema/

@@matt-0teachings952 my son had his first kitemare with a trainer kite as a result of my mistake, knotting back together a broken steering line which slipped under load causing the kite to loop

@@luukdeboer1974 Please tell me about that, there is always lots to learn from kitemares and "mistakes." What size and type of kite was it, and what type of knot did you use on the steering line?

Could you tell us about the kite and knots you used? @@luukdeboer1974

Windsurfing is a deeper and more noble art than kitesurfing. Ask anyone who both windsurfs and kites, and 95% will give the same answer :)

@@matt-0teachings952 I would agree, even if I just only started with windsurfing months ago. I put it in the same category as Skiing (vs snowboarding), Tennis (vs. soccer) and maybe golf. For some reason, people who windsurf tend to ski in winter and sometimes also play tennis, people who surf or kitesurf usually are snowboarders and don't play tennis. I think it has to do with both the amount of money you have to invest in those sports, but more importantly the amount of technique you have to learn to become really good and the mount of frustration you have to accept. Windsurfing, Skiing, Tennis to me look way harder to master with so many factors that you basically make mistakes all the time, no matter how good you are. That means you have to have a high tolerance for disappointment and frustration and the will to deal with lots of details. But that's just my thought :)

Glad to help. Just make sure you don't cut the wrong lines, I've done that myself once or twice lol

haha thanks :)

Glad you enjoyed it!

There's more information in the original video, link is in the description. Apparently no serious injury or broken bones, but his ankle was quite bruised. Good thing he unhooked from the harness line just before impact.

Thank you!

Thanks!

Thanks, I learned a lot from making it too

Much appreciated!

Thanks Scott, that's interesting. I am curious about your thoughts on this. Do you keep connected so that in case the helper drops the kite, you can make an attempt at regaining control/relaunching? some other reason?

Hi Jente. I do recommend hooking in before launching. But it's one of the last steps in the launch procedure. (see 9:30) We don't hook in until after we have pulled the lines straight from a bit downwind and then walked up with tension in the lines until we find the approximate edge of the window. Then we hook in, and take those last couple of steps upwind while checking the back line tension with the bar until we find the right location to launch. This is to minimise the time spent walking around the beach with the chicken loop hooked in. If the kite powers up unexpectedly (helper drops the kite, kiter pulls the lines tight from too far upwind, lines get snagged or tripped on, etc) then it's better not to be hooked in. Please also see from 4:23 in this video: th-cam.com/video/-aApZDlC0ss/w-d-xo.html

Mui Ne, Viet Nam. Contact info is on the page also: www.vietnam-kitesurf.com

Thanks so much. I've watched some of yours too, good work :)

Glad I could help!

as it turns out, an IKO certification doesn't mean all that much...

to the point of camber, he is looking at the sail while on shore. The way sails use the camber principle isn't from thickness its from the curve of the sail which appears when 1) you out cambers on the sail which make the camber shape 2) when the wind force hits the non camber sail and curves the battens and the sail body so the camber is produced while moving and as your speed and wind speed increases non camber sails perform much better because they curve more as the forces increase and that's also why cambered sails are 1) much more stable 2) much more efficient in light winds.