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Sanctus Institute
Germany
เข้าร่วมเมื่อ 29 เม.ย. 2019
BROADCASTING CONVERSATIONS ON WESTERN THEOLOGY AND SPIRITUALITY
Oh, the Places You'll Go
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends
Looking back we've covered a lot of ground in 2024. 37 videos for this year on the Sanctus Forum. In this Pensées Michael Stewart Robb shares some of his highlights from the year, things he learned as well as important moments for the Sanctus Institute.
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Looking back we've covered a lot of ground in 2024. 37 videos for this year on the Sanctus Forum. In this Pensées Michael Stewart Robb shares some of his highlights from the year, things he learned as well as important moments for the Sanctus Institute.
BE INFORMED and PRAY for us better by signing up for the Sanctus newsletter: sanctus.institute/
BECOME A FRIEND with larger donations that help Sanctus create many other everyday spaces for spirituality & theology:
For a direct and (in Germany) tax-deductible option:
Sanctus Institute e.V.
IBAN: DE36 5206 0410 0005 0287 10
BIC: GENODEF1EK1
Or, for an international (non-European) and (in the USA) tax-deductible option:
The Antioch Partners
sanctus.institute/participate
(Credit cards accepted, if desired)
Or, write to us:
info[that "a" thing]sanctus.institute
Sanctus Forum: sanctus.institute/forum/
Sanctus Institute: sanctus.institute/
Follow us to hear the latest:
Instagram: sanctusinstitute
Facebook: sanctusinstitute
Twitter: SanctusInstitut
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Dallas Willard | Master of Molecules
มุมมอง 41721 วันที่ผ่านมา
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Listen to Dallas Willard speak on "The Kingdom Gospel" in 2004: conversatio.org/the-kingdom-gospel-audio/ Conspiracy Commentaries §77 Master of Molecules The Divine Conspiracy Chapter 3: What Jesus Knew: Our God-Bathed World LISTEN TO the audio-only podcast under "Sanctus For...
Dallas Willard | The Smartest Man in the World
มุมมอง 73028 วันที่ผ่านมา
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Conspiracy Commentaries §76 The Smartest Man in the World The Divine Conspiracy Chapter 3: What Jesus Knew: Our God-Bathed World LISTEN TO the audio-only podcast under "Sanctus Forum" on Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, etc. BE INFORMED and PRAY for us better by signing up fo...
Dallas Willard | The Growing Wave of Unfaith
มุมมอง 189หลายเดือนก่อน
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Listen to Dallas Willard speak on "How Moral Knowledge Disappeared from Campus and Culture" in 2002: conversatio.org/how-moral-knowledge-disappeared-from-campus-and-culture/ Conspiracy Commentaries §75 The Growing Wave of Unfaith The Divine Conspiracy Chapter 3: What Jesus Kn...
"Come away with me" | When was YOUR last time?
มุมมอง 194หลายเดือนก่อน
Until November 18 JOIN the retreat/course Among Wolves: Serving Like Jesus sanctus.institute/amongwolves Jesus sends out his volunteers who remade a peninsula of Asia into the continent of Europe. But he sent them on this work in the expectation that they would regularly come away with him for times of training and rest. When was the last time you did this? Michael Stewart Robb gives a peak int...
Not another leadership training
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JOIN in the retreat/course Among Wolves: Serving Like Jesus sanctus.institute/amongwolves In this Pensées Michael Stewart Robb takes a break from a retreat in Finland and talks about leadership training. BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends BE INFORMED and PRAY for us better by signing up for the Sanctus newslet...
5 books on ministry
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JOIN in the retreat/course Among Wolves: Serving Like Jesus sanctus.institute/amongwolves In this Pensées Michael Stewart Robb shares 5 books which have helped him understand how to help other people in the name of Jesus. BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends BE INFORMED and PRAY for us better by signing up for t...
Exhausted by Jesus?
มุมมอง 1832 หลายเดือนก่อน
JOIN in the retreat/course Among Wolves: Serving Like Jesus sanctus.institute/amongwolves One need not go very deep into Jesus' spirituality before one finds Jesus' invitation to serve others. But there is a whole group of people who very actively volunteered at church and who became disillusioned and exhausted. This is ironic says Michael Stewart Robb in this Pensées because Jesus sent his peo...
Ministry is hard
มุมมอง 2162 หลายเดือนก่อน
JOIN in the retreat/course Among Wolves: Serving Like Jesus sanctus.institute/amongwolves If you start serving people you will eventually come to the place of needing a break, a retreat, a reset. Jesus did the same and with his co-ministers. In this Pensées Michael Stewart Robb shares the rest of the story from his summer when as he said in a previous video he thought God wasn't showing up to w...
What to read FIRST when you read DALLAS WILLARD (2024 Edition)
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BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Back again after five years it is Michael Stewart Robb's answer to the question, what to read first when you read Dallas Willard. With so, so many books on Dallas Willard it is hard to know where to turn first. But Mike sorts it all out for the beginner or the more advanced r...
How to write | 3 tips on audience
มุมมอง 2312 หลายเดือนก่อน
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends There's a question that good communicators have constantly before their mind no matter what the situation is. And that is, who is my audience? When you sit down to write the same question needs to be on your mind, who is this for? Michael Stewart Robb explains his writing pro...
Raising strong kids with Jonathan Haidt
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BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends The main thesis of Jonathan Haidt's book is to name the connection between extensive smartphone use and the mental health and failures to launch in Gen Z. It prompts strong reactions. But in this video Michael Stewart Robb attempts more of a review of the book and even better...
How to grow up: Jonathan Haidt & the 2nd coming-of-age
มุมมอง 9793 หลายเดือนก่อน
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Certain types of experiences are necessary if we are going to grow up and become mature adults. The best idea in Jonathan Haidt's book "The Anxious Generation" relates to how smartphones can keep us from the challenges and discoveries we need in order to be strong adult human...
Jonathan Haidt on the ruthless elimination of ease
มุมมอง 5793 หลายเดือนก่อน
BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Humans are antifragile - which means that they get better and stronger through resistance and difficulty. If, in our attempts in spiritual formation, we try to remove all of this from our lives to live in a state of ease and unhurried bliss, we will not grow spiritually. In t...
Dallas Willard | The Resistance Built into Our Daily Life
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BECOME A FRIEND and join us in creating everyday spaces for spirituality & theology in Europe: sanctus.institute/friends Conspiracy Commentaries §74 The Resistance Built into Our Daily Life The Divine Conspiracy Chapter 3: What Jesus Knew: Our God-Bathed World LISTEN TO the audio-only podcast under "Sanctus Forum" on Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, etc. BE INFORMED and PRAY for us better by si...
Dallas Willard | The First Shall Be Last and the Last First
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Dallas Willard | The First Shall Be Last and the Last First
Alan Jacobs on wanting to read vs. wanting to have read
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Alan Jacobs on wanting to read vs. wanting to have read
How to read for a better life | 4 tips
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How to read for a better life | 4 tips
How Richard Foster wrote Celebration of Discipline | 4 thoughts on writing
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How Richard Foster wrote Celebration of Discipline | 4 thoughts on writing
Dallas Willard | The Dual Context of Life in God's World
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Dallas Willard | The Dual Context of Life in God's World
Dallas Willard | Moving out of Our "Tent," or Temporary House
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Dallas Willard | Moving out of Our "Tent," or Temporary House
Dallas Willard | Carelessness About Death
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Dallas Willard | Carelessness About Death
Dallas Willard as Prophet of Post-Christendom
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Dallas Willard as Prophet of Post-Christendom
Ministry | Do protestants have it backwards?
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Ministry | Do protestants have it backwards?
Bro...did you read all your books in your library? And could you do a video on all the types of books you have. Blessings from SE Asia. 😊
The short answer is I've read most. I don't have a lot of space and so I have to only buy the books that I plan on reading. I might do a library tour at some point. Others have asked. Blessings back to SE Asia
I have spent my life (from age 8) immersed in making computers do my bidding. It’s an interesting proposition to comprehend Jesus’ genius in the field of technology. Of course I buy Dallas’s idea that Jesus is the greatest computer scientist and software developer… if His Word is holding together galaxies, I assume He can handle a handful of electrical signals in a piece of metal. The other side of this thought is that my career work is more about the art of system design and interpersonal relationships (including the appropriate exercise of power) than it is about software code. These topics are universal and timeless, and are right at home in Biblical application.
Dallas has not a giant or a spirit but a genius-christology😅 7:09
or maybe all of the above... 🧐
Thanks Mike, great video! I read this part just before I got a chemo-therapy and it really gave me so much confidence that Jesus knows what is happening on a molecular level in my body.
so good! Thank you.
Thanks for this. I've been chewing on "do you believe in God or do you just believe in Jesus." I was going over 1 Peter 2 this morning and Peter emphasizes in 2:1-2 "God and...Jesus" and "knowledge of God and Jesus..." So believing in God would involve believing in the order and reality of God, which is bigger than believing in a Person?
Dallas deals with that verse on page 319 (chapter 9). There is a way in which the life and teaching of Jesus help us believe even more fully in God. But Dallas's statement about believing in Jesus but not believing in God is an observation of social behavior today. People who profess that they are with Jesus and follow him but they don't act as if God exists, e.g. don't believe Psalm 23.
He knew literally everything, so yes
Thank you! I felt that you exactly addressed the question I had. The more I think about it we get into contradictory statements if we want Jesus to be the most knowledgeable person ever to have existed in all aspects of humanity. Since experience is one aspect of knowledge he would not know the full experience of what it is like to be a woman . Yet Jesus was perfect (in Aristotelian sense?). Listened to artist Jason Upton “hammer and awkward nail” and I think it captures something important: “Did you straighten that [awkward] nail with a magic tool; did you ever get tired and want to change the rules, Jesus; What’s amazing to me about a man like you is that you raised the dead but had to suffer too, Jesus.
Creating a disrespectful image of our lord for a clickbait thumbnail is not the move. You should change it and repent, lest you have to answer to God for mocking his image "for more views"
Christ was crucified as a sinner and seditious rebel. If He was worried about being “mocked” He would not have allowed Himself to be crucified. His humility is demonstrated in the fact He made Himself so low for us.
@ The tragedy of the passion was that He was falsely accused of being a sinner and seditious rebel, mocked and humiliated by the very people He sought to save. With your logic you justify blasphemy, torture, and murder against Him because He allowed Himself to be blasphemed, tortured, and murdered. Remember what "hallowed be Thy name" truly signifies. Does this thumbnail give the respect to Christ that He deserves?
I love the 'low & slow' aproach. Thanks for doing it patiently and deeply.
Thank you for the video! I really like the book but this part confused me a bit and perhaps you can expound on this. What would it mean to meet Jesus as he lived in 1st century Palestine? Would the man Jesus know all the equations of general relativity? That is, does he know all the true propositions there is to know of the world? What I found helpful was Daniel Napier’s approach of Jesus as “philosopher” I.e. Jesus knows fully what and how to live life well. In any case what I would like to know is essentially the difference that Dallas took on Jesus with respect to propositional knowledge, “smart” which would be more akin to high IQ (you can still have high IQ w/o knowing all facts) , or the relevant knowledge for how to live and flourish in the kingdom of God.
Thanks Mike & Yes to more theology and philosophy. And how about your excellent book, The Kingdom Among Us!? I recently had discussions with pastors who are sliding into things like dual aspect Monism. They think of themselves as Willard guys, but I find many of the people that say that have not read Willard deeply. This is why I think your book is so important. Getting to the theology and philosophy behind what Willard has written is essential. How can your book be introduced to a wider audience?
This video is even better the second time. Fantastic distillation here Mike.
🎉
Love this!
Cheers, glad to see you here!
Great stuff Mike. It is a great temptation for many people (I include myself) to write off the church visible as viable in today's world. Your reflection is so helpful in recognizing where Jesus is likely still at work. I am encouraged! @@SanctusInstitute
It was a joy! Thank you for your service!
💥 boom 💥
This video reminded me of the term servant leadership. In my opinion, training for leadership overlaps with spiritual formation . Leadership at the highest level requires some sort of self-sacrifice and only spiritual formation from Jesus would enable it.
Yeah I agree. If we're going to have leaders, the servant kind seems the best kind to have!
Burnout and compassion fatigue are a very real thing. We do not rest from our work but work out of rest….easier said then done. Thanks for this resource and look forward to engaging more.
Anybody else know what it is like to want to give up on service?
Accident title alert at 3:52. Oops! But, hey, these aren't masterpieces here.
Thank you for this encouragement!
i totally agree! listening to dallas lecture will help get to know him and make reading so much more enjoyable. i can hear his voice now with every word i read... thanks mike!
Your original video was got me to subscribe to your channel
Agreed - hearing him speak is easier than reading him in my opinion. For reading, I usually direct people to Hearing God/In Search of Guidance or The Spirit of the Disciplines first. Then I suggest The Divine Conspiracy but encourage watching the video series on TH-cam first before trying to tackle the book. Now I'm going to Conversatio to listen to that series you suggested. :)
That's a good order
So, I'm still confused. Is the Kingdom of God only within membership of the Church, or is it in the mystical, invisible Body of Christ worldwide?
I like that you are pondering these things. Keep going. Dallas Willard's idea is that the kingdom of God goes beyond human beings. It is seen in miracles and in the acts of creation and providence. He sums it up as God in action. Which can also be see in human beings both in and out of the church.
Wow! An original Dallas cassette. What a kick!!
Of the various versions of "In Search of Guidance/Hearing God" - which one do you like the best?
I first engaged with Dallas through a video series on the Divine Conspiracy, so I agree. He is easier to listen to than to read sometimes. Then I read Spirit of the Disciplines, Hearing God, Renovation, and DC. I still need to get to Knowing Christ today and now a new book is coming out on his parable teachings. But the parable series is also on audio so I'm not really sure if the book will have anything new?
If we want to start reading Dallas’ philosophy, and we have only taken one intro to Philosophy class at a community college level, is there some foundational philosophy we should read first?
This is a hard one to answer. But what I point people to is the Metaphysics course on Conversatio: conversatio.org/collections/metaphysics-1984/ If you are a beginner, then it is imperative to do the reading. Another approach is to try reading the first chapter of one of his books and see how you make sense of it. Another approach is to think of the main divisions of philosophy (metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, anthropology, aesthetics) and looking for an article to read in that area and see how you get on. If all of these ways are too difficult and you can't find someone to do it with, then you will probably need a more basic course. Dallas did such stuff at USC but none of it is available . . . yet.
@@SanctusInstitute I like it. I printed the syllabus. A while back, I listened to the first few lectures and was enamored with the assertion that Ontology is the way through the epistemological roadblock of the contemporary moment. I’m looking forward to moving from anticipation to belief.
Hey, I've done some of my best reading of The Kingdom Among Us on the toilet! 🙃
:)
@@SanctusInstitute Your work there has been a great help in my understanding of Dallas's foundational understandings of faith and knowledge. I'm also gaining a better appreciation for the development of his ideas and the length of time it took for him to refine them and become who he was as I knew him. Thank you!
@@ThePaulWilliams Many thanks for this feedback
I love this "cross-pollination" between Haidt and Spiritual Formation. I found both The Anxious Generation and The Righteous Mind to fuel a lot of insight about the practice of spiritual formation. In my own spiritual journey and my role as a pastor I have come to realize that the danger in much of the spiritual formation movement comes when it becomes divorced from a true community. The local church forces you into areas of resistance and difficulty which help to develop an "anti-fragile" formation. Often I have known or seen people, even some spiritual directors, who do exactly what you described by detaching from community in order to protect their silence and reflection. But this is a dangerous way to pursue formation as it allows you a distorted reality and limits the role of the larger body in your formation. Thanks for making this connection. Thanks for sharing this.
Oh great! Thanks for saying that. Community is so important.
Mike, so important what you have shared here. My eldest son will be 39 in a few weeks. When the internet and computers became a “necessity” we did what you just shared. The computer was put in the TV and family room, they were allowed only 1/2 hour on it, which was quite frustrating as the internet was very slow. It was a way, as you said, to keep an eye on what they were looking at. My 3 children are very socially adaptable people, that is thanks to the fact that they grew up in a Christian community, the church, and they interacted with lots of different individuals. Your point about the difference between community and networking is a very good differentiation. I think as adults, we also need to reflect on how we use technology. If an issue can be solved by talking face to face, let’s not send an e-mail or a text. We believe in a relational God therefore we need to reflect that. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing this and affirming the importance of apprenticing our kids in software, internet, gaming, social networking, etc.
Thanks for your commentary on Jonathan Haidt's book. My husband and I read it this summer and we bought copies for our 3 adult children and their spouses. It made an impact on us. I really love how you tied the concept of anti-fragile into spiritual formation.
Thanks a bunch
"I think he got that from....Jesus." love it.
But how? This device has quickly become a multifunctional necessity. It's way past the point of being able to put it in a drawer and go about my day.
Great question. Suggestion 1: one could start by buying a flip phone and experimenting with using it for those necessary things. Suggestion 2: Experiment with using monofunctional tools.
It's almost impossible for me as a recent college graduate to even be aware of upcoming career fair events or even connect with my career advisors without utilizing my devices and apps to get a hold of them. Though I completely agree with the notion that flesh and blood experiences are far more fulfilling and valuable, the system that is built for my generation is one that requires us to partake in the digital world constantly to keep up in a competitive landscape. Gaining control over our devices and scheduling time that is dedicated to balancing digital and real experiences is a potential solution. However, completing giving up the digital is impossible when even employers are constantly requiring online exposure to connect before even getting interviews.
@@jadezero_br I agree. As a parent, all my kid's school events and activities are communicated exclusively through apps and/or social media pages.
what about wanting to watch helpful youtube videos vs wanting to have watched helpful youtube videos
Just 'stumbled' upon this, and I love the critique of a Christianity of ease. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus promise us that following Him will make our lives easier- in fact, He promises the opposite. We will have "anguish" (John 16:33) in this world, but this is how we grow, and it's beautiful how this principle is baked into creation, as the analogy of the tree shows. I do have a couple of concerns, however, with your advice that we seek out adversity. 1) It's one thing to exhort people to not run from or avoid trouble, quite another to tell them look for it. Life has enough adversity of its own, especially if we follow Jesus. Being a member of a church, practicing real (hard) forgiveness, and responding to the good works that God prepares for us beforehand that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10) will bring us plenty of chances to become 'anti-fragile'. 2) Seeking out our own adversity still puts us in 'control' of our own growth. Jesus is the author and perfecter of my faith, not me. If I am picking and choosing when and with whom I will face adversity, I may be more likely to ignore the thing Jesus is actually asking me to do. -I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
I recently found Mr. Willard's books, and some teaching videos. He has put into words things I've experienced in my relationship with God and he has given me things to work on. I haven't read all the books yet, but I recommend taking the dive. Brilliant man he was.
When I discovered Dallas, he truly was a sane voice in a crazy church. Even now, I'll watch his videos just to hear the sound of his voice.
Yes...I just found Dallas this year. And I only bought one book the balance 4 - I found it at various old book shops for USD 4 for each. 😅😅😂
Thanks Mike for this topic. A couple of comments if I may: 1. Living in the story of the "already, not yet" is by default a place of tension. 2. Jesus' teachings would instruct/warn/prepare his followers of the tensions doing so: Parable of Wheat & Tares in Matt.13:24ff, the servants are not allowed to pull out the false wheat but commanded to allow both to grow together - for the sake of the true wheat. Parable of Sheep and Wolves in Matt.10:16ff - He sends out the followers as sheep in the midst of wolves - not amidst the teddy bears. Jesus' teaching on taking up his yoke in Matt.11:25ff - Taking on a yoke presumed there was work to do. A yoke is not ornamental, but functional as a labouring device.
Thanks Roy for this little meditation on this topic
Fantastic video. The book is now on my wish list!
I began to notice the message that Jesus taught. Mark 1 communicates this beautifully. The message was, rethink what you think is true because by following me and doing what I prescribe, the kingdom is now and option. By doing so we are engulfed by the Trinitarian Community. We experience inner transformation, or Spiritually led process, so that we come to think and live as Jesus was able to do. Whatever message we are sharing, is it indeed good news? Is Lordship good news? Is trying to make being poor in spirit as something desirable good news? I've found people often quote Dr. WIllard, but rarely come to be able to communicate his thesis. That the kingdom is now and for anyone and everyone, that eternal living is possible now, that our being right with God is placing our well being on him as Abraham did, takes care of the sin issues, that heaven is as close as the air surrounding our bodies, that "you are with me", that the resurrection proved that everything Jesus said is true. For me, this is good news. As spokespeople for Jesus are we communicating what he said or what we were taught to say?
I'm thoroughly enjoying The Kingdom Among Us. I'm 316 pages into it now. What are your thoughts on Greg Ten Elshof's critique of Willard's take on the beatitudes?
I haven't read Ten Elshof's critique but he would join a host of others who don't think Willard got it right. Willard himself knows that he's in a very small camp. The point is probably moot because what Willard thinks Jesus is teaching through the Beatitudes, everybody agrees is essential to Jesus's teaching, namely that the kingdom is for everyone, no qualifications necessary. They just don't think he's teaching it in the Beatitudes.
Hello Mike, Do you know what Dallas Willard thought the Bible taught about God’s choice of humans over angels? God has made at least two types of creatures capable of choices that surpass the animals. It appears as if God chose the lesser to be made in the image of God and to have dominion over the remainder of creation. Why did God choose the less glorious creature to be the representative image of God?
There's some material on angels in the series The Soul's Eternal Anchor I believe. Angels don't have bodies, i.e. don't have kingdoms. Their ability to act must come through something which does have a kingdom, either through God or through humans. As for ranking, other theologians have tried that but Dallas didn't go in for it (the so-called heavenly hierarchy). In his account of creation, angels aren't better or worse than humans. Maybe just different. A question for you: what do you think it means to be the image of God? (No need to answer it on TH-cam)
I value this 😊
I discovered Dr Willard in 2013. I was drawn to how he didn’t mind someone disagreeing. He taught like a teacher, which I prefer. I bought The Divine Conspiracy in 2014. While I didn’t think at the time it had an impact slowly I changed. I felt I was able to respect other’s experiences and thoughts. I’ve collected every Dallas Willard book. I’m looking forward to meeting him some day in the eternal.
Appreciated the candour Mike. Thank you! Love this channel and what you share here. Keep going! From the other side of the world in NZ.
A few observations: 1. Cool library/office! A great place to read, I'm sure. 2. I really appreciate this video and your perspective. A man of refreshing candor. Suggestion: get rid of your intro or make it less than 10 seconds. Imo, one-cut videos are more elegant! 3. I love the idea of reading vis-a-vis the "whimsical" approach. I think it is always good to ask "why." And also to use prudence when deciding what your time and your mind consume. You're definitely right to say that some books--I think the best books--combine pleasure and education, and this can take many forms. Works by Homer, for instance, teach moral lessons, character, and storytelling itself! 4. Along the lines of your point, I'm fond of keeping 3 books on rotation: 1 spiritual, 1 professional, and 1 fictional. The fictional book usually takes precedence, but I think it helps get the momentum going.
Perfect timing as I'm getting ready to go into my first personal retreat later this week!
I love it.
I have a little hack that serves me well. I have Amazon Prime and for many books in the Kindle version you can request a sample. They will send a sample to your Kindle. There it sits until I read it and decide if I want to buy it or borrow it. Cheers!
I'm almost done reading Pride and Prejudice and while it is not my cup of tea and I found the first 2/3 to be boring as hell, it is rewarding to get through a text I'm not thrilled with. I may even learn a thing or two by the time I'm done.
Nice. My wife just finished Middlemarch which I failed twice on and then gave to her. She had the same experience but then said the last 1/3 made it worth it.