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Hey Jonathan, Good to hear from you sir. I hope you guys are doing super out there. And, I totally hear you on your thoughts. I think one of the struggles that we have because of "sin" in our world is that everything we do is from a sinful view. It's really the only thing we know so that's how we approach everything. Because of that, we immediately see "patriarchy" as a negative. That's simply the only way we've ever seen it work. And, then, in your last sentence you said, "Eve is not a subordinate helper" any more than God is. And, I agree. The problem is with the definition of "subordinate". In that definition we see the words "under the control" of another person. God never described Adam's leadership of Eve as one "in control" of another. Eve is not described as a subordinate. She is described as an equal partner, created in the image of God just like Adam, that would follow the lead of her partner. We struggle to understand that from our view on this side of sin but their relationship was created in a perfect state in a perfect, sin free world. So, I think this is our biggest issue in understanding that. Now, there are pieces of the creation story in Genesis, and throughout the Bible, that give us an understanding that, even though Adam and Eve were both created in God's image, and equal partners, they had different roles to play. God created Adam first when He could have created them both at the same time. This difference throughout Scripture gives us the understanding that He was creating Adam to be the leader. After they had committed sin, God want to Adam first. He didn't go to Eve and ask what happened. And, honestly, He already knew what happened. He went to Adam because Adam was the one responsible. God had told Adam that they couldn't eat from that tree. He left it to Adam to tell Eve. Again, not as one in control over her but as one to lead her as a part of this pair. And, I still have to add Ephesians 5 into the mix. When Paul gives them direction about marriage He is referring them to the original plan for marriage that God had in mind when He created it. Paul starts with "submit to each other". He tells them it's a coming together on both parts. And, then he describes their different roles. A husband is to love His wife and lead her as Christ loves and leads His church. And, the wife, representing the Bride of Christ, should love and be lead by her husband as the church follows Christ. That is not forced. It is not control. It is a humble following chosen by the Bride. And, I just really believe that, if we as men would learn how to play our role for our Brides they would have no problem in their role either. Let me know what you think. I'm always open to look at this stuff. We're learning new things all the time. Have a great day sir!

@@jarrodroberts2366 Thanks much for your kind, thoughtful response! I am concerned about the frame we are making the argument from. If we cannot trust our own thoughts or actions because “everything we do is from a sinful view,” how can we determine what a biblical ideal of anything actually is? If everything we do is distorted by sin, then how can we trust our hermeneutics? I believe the reasoning that I’ve heard you speak about in your sermons is summed up well when you say, “God’s standards haven’t changed.” I believe this is true. However, it might be helpful to be very critical of where we are getting these standards from. More often than we would like to realize, we get them from Tradition, “this is the way we have always believed about X.” If everything is made suspect because of the effects of sin, then we would do well to have a healthy skepticism of our Traditions, on their own merit alone.

@@jonathanluttrell1955 Man, I totally agree with that. We must find a way to understand what was being said at the time the passage was written and to whom it was being said. Then we have to see how it applies to us today. If we don't get rid of our bias then we can never really know what the passage is saying. And, then we are exactly where you said. Trying to do hermeneutics with a distorted view. And, that can really get us in trouble. That's why I keep trying to go to the place before sin happened and see what God's plan was from the beginning. But, you are correct. Even if we do that, but with a skewed view, we get in trouble quickly.

@@jarrodroberts2366 My brother I appreciate your heart and the way you navigate these hard conversations. Blessings!