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We'd like to test cycle life, but as you say, it's expensive. See our reply to @calholli for details. There does seem to be a tradeoff between capacity and life cycles. For example, Ikea's Ladda 1900mAh cell promises 1,000 cycles, while its Ladda 2450mAh cell is only 500 cycles. We've collected many NiMH cells over the years and minimize the over-discharge problem by regularly analyzing and grouping the cells by capacity, using a Powerex charger/analyzer (Amazon Affiliate link: amzn.to/4fLzmos ).

Thanks for the kind words!

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, we like Big Clive too. He's a gem.

Thanks for the kind words!

An electronic lock typically doesn't have any analog or radio circuitry and shouldn't be sensitive to EMI. Keep in mind lithium-ion has a higher self-discharge rate than alkaline (ZnMnO2) or disposable lithium (LiFeS2).

Likewise we suspect Costco's Kirkland cells are rebranded Duracell OP1500 cells, judging by the construction, format of lot numbers and almost identical capacity. Like Amazon Basics you have to buy many (48) to get the best bang-for-your-buck.

Lectrosonics makes nice gear! We'll contact their support department and ask. Meanwhile, can you share which model you use and how long the mic has to run between charges?

@ well I use LADDA’s in an HMa for example and get about 7 hours run time

Good analogy! It's interesting how the name-brand manufacturers of disposable cells, like Energizer and Duracell, don't feature the capacity of their cells on packaging and labels, but you can go to their web site and get complete and reasonably accurate data sheets. It seems they'd rather compete on subjective, than objective criteria.

​@@on-the-fritzwhen i was living in Hong Kong in the 70s, the Philips brand of Zinc Carbon and alkaline cells are printed with 4 digit capacity information and (at 5 mA) on the cell's own wrapper on an models. Therefore i bought mostly Philips over other brands at that time as i thought they were more honest. Non serious tests did seem to show that they were better as well. When i moved to the US, i had never seen that brand of cells at all. Even their electric shaver was branded as another brand (as Philco threatened to sue them even Philco didn't make that product.)

@@nine7295 So this HK Philips was a different company from the European Philips?

You're welcome!

Our recommendation is to use the manufacturer’s rechargeable pack. The most you’d get from rechargeable lithium-ion AA cells is less than 2.5 Ah. Worse, the EMI noise they generate could impair your cellular connectivity (see our first video for details). 7.4 V sounds like two lithium-ion cells in series. The 5.4 Ah sounds like a cell more than twice the size of an AA. If you provide the make and model number of your camera we might be able to tell you more.

@@on-the-fritz Thanks! - Just cancelled the Amazon order and ordered the battery packs. I was looking through the specs on the camera, and it specifically states not to use rechargeable AA's - "Do not use rechargeable AA batteries (their lower voltage will generate operational issues)."

The camera specs probably refer to NiMH rechargeables, which output lower voltages (see previous video, AoB #2). Rechargeable lithium-ion are too new to be a support issue for manufacturers.

Maybe more DIY solution would be to use Power Bank, that would provide 5V output. Just get a cable with USB- A on one side and remove other connector and just connect wires directly to relevant terminals in battery compartment. If it's 4 AA batteries in series then input voltage would be between 6V and 4V. Of course since it's outside you'd need to make sure everything is waterproof. It's very common to get power bank that's 74Wh.

We’re looking into it. Unfortunately we’d still be using Amazon ASINs, so lawyers are involved. 🙁

Glad you enjoyed it!

Just came across this video at random, but there's at least one more subscriber right here!

We’re hoping we’re less than a year ahead of our time. Thanks for the kind words!

Unfortunately there’s no standard for charging buck-regulated lithium-ion cells. Kentli provides a separate outer ring contact for a direct connection between charger and internal chemical cell (see our first video). Hixon and Kratax look like they’re made by the same manufacturer (they even have the same model number), but, you never know, internal circuitry could differ. So no one with money in a bank will advise you to do anything other than follow manufacturer’s instructions.

That's right. The best solution depends on the application.

Yes, that's a good solution if your device takes an even number of cells. You have to be careful you don't damage the LiFePO4 by discharging below its cutoff voltage though. We cover this in our next video (AoB #3). Note you can get LiFePO4 in AA form too: www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005870958670.html

Thanks! Agreed. Most consumers don't take the time to calculate the total cost of ownership.

Thanks for the kind words.

Glad you liked it!

The recharging of buck-regulated (bucked) lithium cells is not standardized in the industry and we aren't aware of any manufacturers that provide a charging specification. The manufacturers of the cells we tested insist we charge their cells ONLY in their chargers. It's reasonable to expect a properly designed, bucked lithium cell to not be damaged or dangerous when put in a NiMH charger (if that's what your Energizer charger is) and for a NiMH cell to not be damaged when put in a Hixon charger, but unless the manufacturers warrant it in writing, do NOT count on it. Our lawyer's advice: an adult should be in charge (pun intended) of recharging. Note also that some cells have a low internal resistance and precocious kids could get some entertaining and potentially dangerous pyrotechnics playing with a cell and aluminum foil.

We’d like to do a price point chart for rechargeables, but we’ll need a few more patrons to afford it! To do it properly, we’d have to test cycle life by charging and discharging cells until they only held 80% of their original charge, then divide their cost by the total energy they were able to transfer from charger to load over their entire cycle life. We’d have to buy or custom build a test jig that charges and discharges the hundred or so samples we’ve got at a controlled ambient temperature. Stay tuned…

@@on-the-fritz Looking forward to it. in the meantime, I grabbed some of the "pujimax" 3400 mWh (light blue with white writing). They are by far the ch3apest rechargeable li-ion; (with only slightly less performance rating). I can get them for two bucks each when I order 20.. (or 8 - $19). Most of the others are closer to 40 for 8, or even more.. I read enough decent revi3ws about these that it's worth using them at that pric3.

@@on-the-fritz Looking forward to it. Make sure you put 'puj^max 3400mWh" on the list (light blue with white writing). They were the cheapest I've found for price/performance (at least on paper). I'd like to see how they test..

We're talking about the EBL 3500mWh disposable lithium cells (ASIN: B0CY213G71), right?

@@on-the-fritz No.. It's puj^max 3400mWh.. (My ^ symbol = i ) .. I can't spell it out, because it will auto d3lete. They are on fl333bay and scAmaozn... Lithium rechargeable.

Thanks for the suggestion and the sub. Amazon Canada doesn’t have them (ASIN B0CY213G71), but we’ll bring samples in next time we order from Amazon.com.

Thanks!

The nickel-zinc rechargeable cells we test in a imminent video might work for you. They are made by EBL and are available on Amazon.com (ASIN B0CFDK5VP2). If you share the make and model of your wireless mic, its user manual might have enough information for us to be more certain.

201k subs would be glorious!

@@on-the-fritz You gonna get there eventually with such a great content.

Thanks for the kind words!

You're correct. We don't recommend buck-regulated cells in wireless devices because the noise they make can intermodulate with the oscillators in digital circuitry to create interference all over the RF and audio spectrums.

@@on-the-fritz I wonder if it makes a difference if the mic transmissions system is digital (not analogue). Maybe I would give a try and buy 4 of such to see how they work with that particular device :D

Buck-regulators operate well above audio frequencies in continuous mode, but in discontinuous mode (at low load currents), they might be audible. Don't use them in devices that process RF or low level signals! Would a video explaining intermodulation be of interest? Unfortunately there isn't a lot of reliable data on Ni-Zn. They might be okay if discharged consistently and recharged regularly (ie don't rely on the device to notify of low battery level). They are certainly cheaper than disposable and make no EMI noise.

Thanks for the kind words! PowerOwl seems to have two NiMH cells, both 2800mAh. One claims to be low discharge, the other, called the GoldTop is a dollar cheaper (package of 16) on their web site. Which model are you most interested in? So far we've only characterized the discharge characteristics of NiMH, for comparison with other chemistries. We feel a full evaluation of performance (and value) would include their lifetime cycle count, but that would be crazy expensive to test in a reproduceable way.

Yes, and the cost of the extra filtering would be significant too.

Yes, we could tear down the cells and measure quiescent current as you suggest, but the important metric for a user is shelf life, which includes self-discharge. We log the recharge of tested cells so that we can look at how much energy they retain in the future. Stay tuned!

Your lock takes AA cells? Is your switch manual or automatic?

Manually change over while waiting for the 3rd set of batteries to charge up

Yes my lock uses 4pcs of AA cell

Agreed. If batteries are a significant component of the total cost of ownership, informed buyers will demand devices with a rechargeable battery and a facility for convenient recharging.

Thanks for the kind words! Let us know what you find out.

Glad you liked it!

It’s our humble purpose to provide a measure of certainty in an uncertain world. We’re glad you liked it.

This really feels like the spirit of the old web. Just someone doing something well and putting it out there.

Do the XTAR AAs still work? Do they still have a 1.5V output?

​@@on-the-fritz yes, and yes. Though I wonder when you connect these in series like in a device that requires four batteries, whether that affects their voltage regulator in some weird way.

We put four XTAR AAs in a holder and tested them as a 6V battery. We didn't see anything unexpected happening at 0 mA, 50 mA, 100 mA and 1A.

I've been looking to replace the disposable AA-batteries in my Yale locks with rechargeable batteries, but like you, noticed that they tell you to not use rechargeable or Lithium-based batteries of any kind. At first I was thinking it had just to do with low battery warnings, since they'd measure the voltage drop to give you a fair warning before they die. They have to cater to the lowest common denominator, and they don't want to lock people out of their homes for not understanding the nuances, so perhaps they just wanted to avoid the fuss it would generate. But seeing these tests I'm starting to think that it also has to do with EMI. Going to avoid it for now.

@@foobar6846 Definitely, especially since I had to RMA a dead Yale lock and it was a PITA with their poor customer service. Yale was recently acquired by another company and so they're having downsizing of personnel.

You’re most welcome!

Thanks!

There are two types of EMI, conducted (in wires) and radiated (in space). EMI is like water under pressure. It flows along wires like water through a pipe, exploiting every imperfection in the plumbing to find its way to freedom. So the EMI generated by lithium-ion AA cells in your external battery pack will be conducted along the power cable to the flash and into flash circuitry. It will radiate from the battery pack, from the interconnecting cable, from the flash, exploiting any breaks in the shielding, like the hole for the cable in your aluminium foil wrap. Unless the manufacturer designed and tested their product to use lithium-ion AAs, it’s anyone’s guess how it’ll perform and what effects it’ll have on nearby equipment. Electronic flashes are essentially boost-converters, typically converting 6V to hundreds of volts. There’re designed to be powered by cells that instantaneously source heavy transient currents. The buck-regulators in lithium-ion AAs take time to respond to load increases. You probably won't damage anything trying them out, but you'll have a setup you can't rely upon, if it works at all. In your case we recommend you stick with the alkaline and NiMH cells Sony recommends. Though Sony doesn’t say so, LiFeS2 cells should also work reliably, have the most energy, are the lightest option, but are disposable. See our web site for the best deals in all three chemistries.

Manufacturers are deliberately vague. Ikea, for example, says "you can charge them up to 500 times", but doesn't specify how much of a charge they'll hold over time. That said, the economics of NiMH are so compelling, even if they are worn out after 100 discharge/charge cycles, they are still much cheaper than disposables-if their voltage issues aren't a problem.

Are they wireless headphones?

@@on-the-fritz no, but have active noise cancelling

⁠Noise-cancelling usually means some digital signal processing, which means a sampling clock, which could mix with the buck-regulator PWM. On the other hand, at low current the buck-regulator could stay in discontinuous mode. Do share if you try it out.

Thanks!

Yes, the buck-converter's always running. In storage it would sleep in discontinuous mode, waking up periodically to maintain output voltage. If it's properly designed it shouldn't add much to the self-discharge you can expect from a lithium-ion cell (2 - 3% according to Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge). Newer NiMH cells claim to have lower self-discharge rates. Eneloop, for example, claims they will have 70% of their charge after 10 years (www.panasonicbatteryproducts.com/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries/eneloop_rechargeable_batteries-aa_4-pack/)

We too had some out-of-box failures in our sample of lithium-ion cells. What is “HH” short for?

@@on-the-fritz H xon brand.

You can expect an increase in tested capacity at lighter loads, just because it takes longer to reach the cutoff voltage when there's less of a voltage drop across the cell's internal resistance. It's anybody's guess how buck converter efficiency changes with load current. So you are correct, more tests are needed to be certain, but we'd be surprised if rankings change at lower load currents. We are currently scrambling to get our next video uploaded and an update to the web site released, but we'll add 500mA load tests for a selection of cells to our to-do list. Thanks for your kind words, your interest and the suggestion.

@@on-the-fritz That's awesome that 500mA tests are coming. One other thing that occurred to me after reading some reviews from those who have purchased the various batteries on your list is that some early/random failures had to do with 'failure to charge'. I'm not sure if this means that architectures that have only discharge circuitry have a better chance of avoiding such failures and my personal experience is limited to using one aaa kentli in my razor (which still works after 8+ years of use). I've ordered 4 AAs now to give them a test. 10 years later i'll know if that was a good idea :)

We like that a Kentli cell isn't burdened with discharge circuitry and its three contact design, which (if our guesses are correct), would allow a battery-powered device to optionally bypass the buck-regulator and tap the lithium-ion cell directly. We've seen some failures in our sample of buck-regulated cells, but didn't have the time to determine exactly what failed. We had some lab time to perform 500mA discharge tests on four samples of each of four make/models, but don't want to upload results, because the production web site hasn't yet been tested to present more than one current per make/model. Meanwhile, here are the average discharge energies (in watt-hours): Manufacturer / Model, 500mA, 1A, % XTAR / 2500mAh, 3.208, 2.824, 13.6% Hixon / J818, 3.149, 2.793, 12.7% EBL / 3000mWh, 2.628, 2.283, 15.1% Kentli / PH5, 2.555, 2.123, 20.3% Summary The buck-converters in these cells are 13 - 20 % more efficient at 500mA compared to 1A. Note that the ranking doesn't change with load current. In theory, you could cut 'n paste the above into a CSV file for import and better readability in a spreadsheet.

@@on-the-fritz Thank you very much!

Sorry, there's no definitive answer to your question. Unless a device manufacturer claims compatibility, they probably didn't increase design time and parts cost to filter out the EMI noise of rechargeable lithium-ion cells/batteries. EMI noise *might* cause interference in electronic circuitry, especially, in your case, the sensitive analog circuitry of an image-intensification camera. So it depends on your use-case. Unreliable equipment is tolerable if you're hunting wild hogs, but not if you're on a Seal Team Six mission. Generally speaking, rechargeable lithium-ion cells/batteries are suitable for simple devices with mechanical switches, motors, heaters, LEDs, etc., but even then, they *might* cause interference in nearby sensitive equipment.

@@on-the-fritz wow. Thankyou. I had already made a purchase of rechargeable NiMH batteries based on this video and the comments of others here. Thanks for your informative and prompt response. God bless

Good choice. In our next video we'll talk about NiMH, which have about twice the energy of alkaline cells. They run about 0.3V lower than alkaline though.

It's true; the web site isn't much more than a proof-of-concept right now, but we are busy working on a new video and a web site update with some exciting new features. Both will be released in August. Note: more of the web site is accessible at no charge just by registering your email address (we will not sell or otherwise share your email address). Thanks for the kind words, the thoughtful feedback and for subscribing.

Agreed, the buck converter, if needed, should be in the device, where it can be properly filtered. You can get lithium-ion in 14500 form, which is close to AA. Some even with a button top. Some even with LiFePO4 chemistry. You can replace two 1.5V AAs with one 14500 and a dummy cell, but you have to manually monitor discharge or you'll damage the cell with deep discharge. So "don't try this at home".

Lithium ion got 18650, 26650, 2170 standard for a long time. The problem with lithium ion replaceable battery lithium ion is too good as a battery. It contains so much energy to borderline dangerous. Give it some abuse and it combust spontaneously.

​​@@KarrasBastomiAll smart phones contain Lithion ion batteries. Several billion around the world. What's more ubiquitous than those? Are you saying cell phones should be banned because their batteries are too good, and therefore, dangerous? Electric toothbrushes and most other rechargeable gadgets all use Lithion ion batteries. So the issue is the device makers. They can very simply make them to still accept the AA size, yet run on 3 to 4V, as opposed to the measly, underpowered 1.5V. That way, they would still be using the same old standard sizes -- AA or AAA. Or they can switch to the 14500 or other form factors. Either way, alkaline will be a thing of the past soon, whether they like it or not. It's time to stop filling dumps with dangerous spent alkaline cells and use recyclable Lithium ion ones.

Glad to have helped!

And NiMH has a low internal resistance-great for photo flashes.

@@on-the-fritz I noticed that with my power-hungry Kodak digital camera back in 2000. A set of 4 alkaline AAs would get chewed up pretty quick (could be used in less intense stuff after), but a set of NiMH cells would last at least three times as long. And the ones I had at the time were only 1300mAh.

Modern alkalines are about half the 1300mAh claimed by your NiMH cells. Have a look: aob.spukhafte.net/?chem=ZnMnO2&form=AA&load=1.0&rank=t&num=5

@@on-the-fritz At a 1A drain, that doesn't surprise me at all. I recall the Alkaline AAs in my camera getting warm. Not quite as warm as my old Tyco Turbo Hopper (the 8AA version before the 9.6V battery pack was a thing), but still warm. I wish I had tried NiMH cells in my Game Boy. It was low drain, but even my 600mAh NiCd AAs lasted all day and then some on a charge.

Correct-unless the manufacturer of the controller specifies their product works with buck-regulated cells.