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I have a question, and I am not having a go... I am just throwing this out there. I have my feelings on this but want to hear others experience on it. If the core has been activated to keep the upper body acting as one lever, connection has been made with the legs, and the shoulder and arm are just hanging on their sinew and bones, does this not allow for you to complete almost all of the drive with relaxation of everything above the hip? The engagement of the lats needs to take place in order to achieve the final pull of the arms at the very end of the drive, but other than the potential unnecessary use of energy, what importance of having activated lats before then?

Thanks for the reply and don’t worry, I’m not precious if you disagree! It may be a language point, but I think there’s a difference between totally relaxed shoulders and arms vs stabilised shoulders and arms. My problem is that totally straight arms tends to lead to shoulder tension and over extension; then they end up too high, the blades go deep and I over work the first part of the drive with a poor return on boat speed. So the image of hanging on sinew and bone isn’t something I buy into (I used to before I got injured!). I had a really good strength and conditioning coach who explained how to initiate a deadlift: Shoulders should be low with lats and core activated. I believe that the same principles apply at the catch. The way I achieve this in the boat is by focusing on not over extending off backstops and keeping the arms loose (maybe a bit bent) and the shoulders low by keeping the lats engaged.

Thanks mate. I certainly have a follow up in mind. Glad you have joined the sport and I can see the bug has bitten... hard.

I agree that this is certainly not something to start rolling out into a Learn-To-Row program. Finding connection properly is such a delicate thing and most people just try slam through it. only once someone has the feel for it should they try find ways that work for them, to improve on it.

You just made me realize I do the exact same thing when stroking with a crew not used to rowing together. I don't even do it consciously, I just all of a sudden realize it's happening and try to find more ease/centeredness, but I'm probably just nervous about getting repeatedly slammed into by a train 😅

Love that this has sparked discussion like this. That's exactly what I wanted when I started InFin8. I also like what you said about highest average speed, rather than just drive speed. Thanks Mark.

I like the idea of making the placement crisp mate, but have considered it to be a case of having a slightly soft arm through the recovery, and then the placement is made with the weight of the blade and the forearm by doing a final straightening into the placement. Finding the connection by a slight pull seems like a bad idea, because there is a void on the working side of the spoon as you place, and you need the patients to let that fill up before you try connect or you will be pushing on air. Yet clearly these guys are making it work. Some further consideration needed...

This has also been going on for quite some time, Tufta, and Andre Senek also scull with elbows down. So far as sweep examples watch the inside arm as the blade locks in, you'll find a very similar motion, Drew Ginn being a prominent rower to keep his wrist up and elbow down on the inside.

This reminds me of the common cue to "break the bar" in weightlifting.

There are many scullers that seem to do it. Even a few ladies, who were my last hope at keeping finesse in the sport. I looked at the Dutch because they have more that do it than dont.

I've tried this recently, using slightly bent arms for the racing start in a single and I felt that it gave me extra control over the balance and ability to raise the rate quickly. I am inclined to continue with this experiment but with arms straigtening out after first ten strokes or so.

My coach (the boat whisperer) would always say "you could take a walk around the lake on your legs, but see how far you get walking on your hands", and although that holds true and is still our philosophy on this, there is something in the slight arm bend. Its not like the arms continue to bend through the drive. It seems to be just enough to gain connection. I still am undecided...

Hey Richard. What you have been taught is correct. Just be mindful of your blade depths. If you are too deep and start trying to feather too early then yes, you will be feathering under water, and this will be, at best slowing the boat through a large amount of drag, and at worst a crab and a tip. If your blades are where we believe they should be, just below the surface of the water, this should not happen. Please try the exercise and give me feedback. Try hold onto the pressure on the spoon as long as you can, have the blade at the right depth, start the extraction and have the blade coming out, and as you do start rolling the feather into your fingers, and then sit there with the blade dragging (until you are so confident and secure in the position that you can have them off the water). You will find that its possible to have a very clean extraction, with minimal disturbance to the water while keeping the pressure on the spoon longer.

Thank you for watching! Where are you based?

@@InFin8RowingIntl Melbourne Australia

@@toofarsouth Ahh, pity, I was there in April, and tried to get a paddle with one of the clubs across the water from Flinders, but it didn't work out. We do believe in actively pulling the boat progressively into the placement. I was also taught to spin the hands away and float the slide, but I am now very sure that thats the wrong way around. We have a vid on this. Please check it out, try it for yourself, and let me know. Wish I could come and do a demo. th-cam.com/video/BJdDoPRs08g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ypV7vj-xa09GMaHR

And long may it last. I am not that much younger and plan to still be going to World's in my 80s! Just make sure you prioritize form over what seems like initial speed. We want to build a community of healthy, competitive, and efficient athleats. Glad you will be part of it.

Thanks for the comment. It's certainly our aim to put things in a more intrinsic way than come across all prescriptive. Please explain what you mean on this one though. I'm not understanding you properly.

What you showed it is a typical sequential type of the power application with a good length in the front and at the back of the stroke. The rowers are hanging on the oar handle and using body swing from the hips to accelerate the boat. The best examples of this technique are the boats from Greece , Italy ,Australia from the past , and some US boats from 80 ties and 90 ties . The other power application is using suspension of the , body weight on the oar handle and unweighting the seat. The stroke is more compact , more dynamic , the rowers sit up more at the catch , step on the footboards and toss themself backwards , the arms and body finish together , there is almost no layback at all. Sinkovic brother row with heavy suspension and all the Dutch boats row with very light suspension . Some athletes bend the arms at the catch to suspend the body e.g. Ned m2x , Ned m1x , and 1996 Ned m8 . Watch my video on TH-cam, The perfect connection , the stroke rows with the classic suspension and the bow rows traditional way. The bow is trying to learn how to suspend the body weight on the oar handle .

@@kriskorzeniowski5992 Sorry but we are going to have to agree to disagree my friend, and that's ok. I am about to do a vid on some of what you have raised though so that may be interesting, and lets see what the tribe thinks. Its not been my experience that little to no forward lean at the placement, and no body swing at the end of the drive is very effective. Opening the body through the perpendicular against the pressure of the end of your legs is, for me, the biggest contributor to acceleration. I have some thoughts on why some top athletes row with bent arms, but will add the desire to suspend as part of it and we will grapple with the subject. If you have rocked your pelvis forward and commence the drive with your legs, then lightening on the seat is a natural by-product. I am reluctant to tell people to try and suspend because I have found that they then try over do it, and this affects how horizontal they make their drive. After all, where does the weight go at the end of the drive if you have over suspended..? It has to land on the seat at the time that your body weight is closest to the bow, causing some degree or bounce and porpoising. I hope you keep watching and commenting. It gives me the chance to prove that what we say has been well considered. We are all entitled to do what we think is best to make the boat move. I will ask you however not to come on with a comment that directs anyone to your channel. Thats not cool TH-cam etiquette.

Thanks Mike. I often talk about the system of boat and rower, and yes, I agree that if you ignore the drag, there is nothing that can prevent a deceleration of the system, but drag is a considerable factor affecting the run. Gradually increasing the boat speed (not system speed) during the time that the system is equally gradually slowing down, serves to counter this. Nothing is perfect but we believe this is the best way to make this part of the stroke more efficient. My demo of the fact that the draw does not check the boat is imperfect. I am far from a perfect rower. What I hope comes across is that there is no characteristic check hallmarks, like a bounce on the stern or the boat moving backwards in relation to the direction of travel, as a result of "landing" on the footplate. Deceleration before the drive is unavoidable, but limitable. With the reduced drag from the draw as well as the fact that you get through this part of the recovery quicker, which causes you to spend less time trimming stern down, contributes to overall speed. You have to land the placement though of course.

Thanks for the comment Somerset. I wish you would make that video. I would like to see what you mean more clearly. I'm very keen on rowing with finesse and like the sound of the boat and rower "dancing". I cant agree that a splash is something that you do when developing and this goes away when you are more technically skilled though. .. That's not been my experience. For me, the guy who I have referenced in my Technique series thus far, Peirre Houin, places the blade pretty much perfectly. Hardly any movement on the slide. Just lift hands and in. And he creates some splash.

Glad you enjoyed it!

Thanks for the question. It is a good one! The short answer is yes, kind of... (for the rowing part. As for your golf... No comment), An oar with some flex in it does help you achieve an acceleration through the drive by "storing" any excess force that could be added at the beginning of the drive and returning it later. That said we should still try not overload the front end as it is inefficient. If the oars had no flex in them, unless you were mechanically perfect in applying consistent acceleration, there are two things that could tear; the water and/or the rower. Neither is a good idea. I think a separate video on this topic is needed, because depending on your strength, and how you apply the power, too much flex will be as bad as too little. Too much will just serve as a damper (playing golf with a rope shaft). There is a bit of science as well as trial an error to get this right so that it achieves the acceleration that we are looking for, with the return happening through the perpendicular.

Nice question Hans. As the blade enters the water it has the water rush against it, causing the "backsplash" behind the spoon. In front of the spoon it creates a small void. This fills up by the time the spoon has properly submerged, but if you get onto the power before this has happened then you end up trying to push against the void and the front of the spoon will splash when it hits the water on the other side. You will usually get a sound from this sort of entry too. The check comes from pushing with the blade not connected, which is the case when there is still air on the working side of the spoon.

I am sorry for the late reply Carsten. I missed your comment somehow. My experience has been that the most common reason for the blade getting stuck with a rolled extraction is blade depth. The blade has to have started exiting the water before you start to roll it, but if it is deep, as a result of being less stable in rough conditions, which is perfectly understandable, then its possible that you are rolling it while still submerged. There will be the need to carry the blades higher in the rough so getting it feathered quicker has always made me feel more stable. I would rather hit a wave with a blade that is already partially or completely feathered.

I am sure there will be a few terms that I use that may not be the norm. I plan to do a vid on how to fix "jazz hands". This is what I call skying the blades. Hope you found the context useful though...

Thanks Anthony. Practically, even the best placers of the blade, like Pierre Houin (who I used to illustrate this) has a slight sternward movement during the fraction of a second that the blade is submerging, but considering the blade is spearing in at the catch angle, I firmly believe that its like a swimmers arm... it stops the boat less than pressure on the foot plate would. I agree on the balance between too much and not enough though. When I coach people who row the blade in, I get them to develop a big back splash first, just to "unlearn" the desire to change direction too soon, and then work on them almost completely getting rid of it.

@@InFin8RowingIntl agreed. And it’s an asymmetric distribution around perfect timing - for every athlete who puts the blade in too early there are 20+ who put it in too late. Also agree on the approach of getting them to go too far the other way and then pull back from there - they need to overcorrect so they can feel what that is like and then start searching for the balance point between too early and too late.

@anthonyward5329 Can you help me understand how you get the blade moving towards the stern without an "almighty boat stopping" movement of body mass towards the bow?. You exhibit widely-held mistaken belief, that one can magically get the blade moving sternwards without kicking the boat backwards. Proper analysis of the mechanics shows it is impossible, and overhead frame-by-frame photography confirms this is not what happens.

Yes a V splash is great if you can time it perfectly. I would still prefer to see more of it going to the back than the front though.

Hi and thanks for the comment. I have checked out Mikes youtube vids and I really like the detail he goes into with his analysis.

Spot on! Absolutely stunning looking boats, and a lovely row too. I competed in one for World Masters 2022, Libourne, and Henley Masters last year.

Hey Andy. Agreed. You can use one to help you train for the other, but at a certain level they are separate disciplines, so I want to make sure as many people understand the difference as possible. There is nothing more disheartening than crushing it on the erg and then being beaten on the water by an athlete that is not as fit or strong as you.

Thanks for the comment. And I do agree with the science btw. I appreciate that if you isolate the system of boat and rower alone, there is no net gain in speed, but if you look at my graphic and listen to my conclusion at the end, you will see that the gain I am referring to comes mainly from maintaining boat speed through the recovery and how that relates to resistance. The boat wants to progressively decelerate, and if it does so it sinks deeper and compounds the deceleration due to a larger wetted area. Using your centre of mass to progressively accelerate the boat, helps counter this. As long as you nail the placement and have connected before you drive, you are picking up a moving boat.

Thanks Rod. I must say, one of the most annoying things that I have found in making these vids, is that I really get annoyed when I see myself doing things I know I should not be doing. Everyone should have video of themselves, and if they don't have the knowledge, then have access to a good coach who can help them see what they are doing. I am going to be doing a video on my most disappointing athlete (myself), specifically to highlight this point. Hope you catch it.

... haha... I have just realised that you are most likely talking about Pierre Houin, not me. The guy rows amazingly, but no matter what level you are at there are things that are not perfect, but they become part of your style and if it works for you then keep it.

Wow. Endorsement from a big name. Thanks

Hi ! It’s so good hearing this! Believe it or not this is the way I was taught to row back in the 60’s😂 I went on to coach my crews this technique in Denmark with the lightweights and to this day I’m still coaching this way! It’s just so nice hearing it from someone else!! Cheers!

Thanks John, and welcome to the tribe. Great to hear it was taught somewhere.@@johnfaulkner1156

I don't know Drew Ginn, but will have a look. And yes. It really does.

Agreed 100%. But if you can afford either then you're not a rowing coach 😇.

Thank you for the compliment. I hope you have subscribed so we can continue to entertain you. And for your guess. Nope it's not. Clue... It's a close up on a boat so I'm looking for the manufacturer

@@InFin8RowingIntl Empacher then? (And yes …subscribed )

Nope. I will see if anyone else guesses and then will give the answer

I spell terribly so I'm only surprised this is the first one. Thanks

@@InFin8RowingIntl Thanks from God's own country

Hey and thanks for the question. Please let me know more about what you mean when you refer to 2 draws, with one at the extraction..?

Nobody rows perfectly. Her sequencing is close though.

Of you are suggesting that there should be no backsplash the we have to disagree. I am going to do a vid on the placement as part of this series, but will also do a seperate one on why there must be backsplash. Not a big one, but one none the less. Look forward to your comments when it's done

I am waiting on the video about backsplash ❤ am interested in your point of view ❤

I am certainly going to cover backsplash in my video on The Placement. It is in the process of being made but will only come out after one on The Draw, which covers the recovery, which will be out by the weekend at the latest. I think a separate vid on backslash may be worthwhile too so thanks for the comment. Spoiler alert.... We think a backsplash is vital. I look forward to explaining why, showing the benefit of developing one, and the process of almost getting rid of one.

@@InFin8RowingIntl thank you 😊

Welcome to the tribe! And thanks for the technical mention on production. I have tried that for my next vid on The Draw, still in production. Looking forward to your feedback.

Keep the feel of the boat and the water in mind when toiling away!

If something is going to break while on the erg, it's usually something in between the handle and the foot plate.

... and that coming from a man who spends a LOT of time on the erg. Current British Rowing Indoor Lightweight champ over 2k. Thanks Richard