วีดีโอ

39:28 these trills cannot be thought of as part of the scale. As you yourself said earlier in the video, they are more like vibrato - and in fact they are quite literally so if you take a look at oud technique, where embelishments do not come in the form of hammer-on trills, like in Western music, but in the form of rapid sideways movement of the left hand, which makes sense since the oud is fretless. A similar effect can be replicated on the baglama with a microtonal trill, be it Western style, or with the aforementioned oud technique. In the case of what King Giz are trying to do in this example, you could argue that they're going for a deliberately off-octave interval, unintentionally similar to such intervals commonly found in gamelan music. Or you could just chalk it up as being an example of a heterophonic texture, which is the main textural mode in cultures that use microtonality.

You're right, I should have clarified that Muslim quarter tone music in its native form is mostly central Asian, though at least from African Muslims I've talked to, this particular type of music does have some global reach even if it doesn't supplant local music traditions. I think this may be due to Arabia being the de facto seat of Sunni Islam, which is the main global denomination, which perhaps results in a greater spread of Arabic cultural influence, especially since maqams are often used in Quranic recitation. I'm not a scholar of Islam or anything though, so take that as speculation. Can you point me towards any examples of non-Muslim quarter-tone music? I was not familiar with that, and I am curious about how similar such traditions would be to standard maqam.

​@@ThePopDescriptivist So, as I said, microtonality, but also the idea of scales as a combination of tetrachords and pentachords, was actually originally invented in Ancient Greece. Microtonality was referred to as the "chromatic" system, as opposed to the West-like "diatonic" system. This system, apart from being the primary inspiration for makam theory, it also survives in the form of Byzantine music and also Greek folk music (although the latter now commonly uses repurposed Turkish terminology). I'm not sure to what extent cultures that are influenced by the ERE still use microtonality to this day, but Greeks certainly do. Conversly, central Asians don't actually use microtonality (e.g. Uzbekistan, northern Iran, etc); their long-necked lute of choice, the tar, does not have any microtones. The oud has prevalence only in some Iranian cultures and is primarily an Arabic instrument, whereas Turks prefer the baglama, both microtonal instruments. West Africa, to my knowledge, is not even remotely related to the modal tradition of the Arabs, but I could be wrong on that one.

I'll have to look up Byzantine/Greek folk music. I have a few Greek folk albums in my library but they're not microtonal (though they do have very wide embellishments/vibrato). And separately, I meant to say western Asian, not central Asian (my mistake). As for microtones in West Africa, I wasn't trying to say that the indigenous music uses quarter tones per se. From what I've heard, there's a lot of free intonation type stuff, as well as scales which kind of imitate 5-edo or 7-edo for instance. But insofar as we can call parts of sub-Saharan Africa part of the Muslim world, this is due to the relatively recent exporting of Islam to these places, and with it, the musical traditions that surround Islam. There are at least some mosques in sub-Saharan Africa (and in Indonesia as well, while we're at it) where you will hear maqam simply due to this influence. At least, this is the impression that I've gathered from people I've spoken to, and from a merely cursory look at the literature on the subject, so who knows the strength of this trend actually is.

@@ThePopDescriptivist Yes, that was my recollection, too, that a lot of West African musics use 7-edo. As for Greek music, there's multiple different styles and some are microtonal, while other ones aren't. The thing is, however, that there's no standardised theory in historically recent Greek folk music, which is why Turkish terminology has been repurposed over the last century. As for church music, that has very formalised theory, and its own system of notation.

Let's not give Google any ideas.

I get a cold shiver at the thought of having to transcribe some of those solos... Maybe one day lol. (great username and pfp btw)

At least the way I conceive of it, Opeth's 'early era' is their first four albums (Orchid through Still Life), which were more or less solidly death metal, with the first couple even having a touch of black metal to them. Their 'middle era' started in Blackwater Park, where they began working with Steve Wilson of Porcupine Tree - so the production values are a little better on this album forward, and they also started to utilize more elements of prog rock/metal (though you could argue Still Life has some of these elements, and really there's no exact dividing line). The 'middle era' continues up through Watershed - after that, their five most recent albums, starting with Heritage, comprise their 'late era'. Mikael stopped doing harsh vocals on these albums, and they lean much more heavily into the progressive rock style, with less overt metal riffs. Personally the 'middle era' is my favorite, and certainly these are the albums I'm most familiar with, but each of the eras has their own charm. Hope this helps.

@ Sweet, thanks a lot!

​@@ThePopDescriptivist Their new album seems like it is going to be a bit of a return to form for progressive metal. Of the two singles that released both are pretty heavy and one has some of the best distortion vocals Akerfeldt has ever done. Great video btw, i've played a lot of prog metal and you really hit the nail on the head with how you describe the way bands like to modulate to borrowed chords to get a sort of destabilized feeling to the music, then quickly return to common metal music structures with a cymbal cue that is usually in a polyrhythm which establishes 4/4. You should check out Gorod, I think the songs Inexorable and Transcendence would be pretty interesting to you.

There's a ton of good stuff to analyze on that album. The riff structure on 'Ghosts of Perdition' probably deserves a deep dive. Or for a shorter video, 'Atonement' has a concise but interesting use of scales.

Been a while since I listened to At the Gates but something off of Slaughter of the Soul could be interesting. Less harmonically complicated than Opeth, but there's a lot of interesting use of melodic motifs and tempo/rhythm shifts. I have a long to-do list of other videos, but I'll consider this.

@@ThePopDescriptivist Oh I'm talking about their first two records. much more twisting and weird imo. Any analysis about these three would make me a happy pappy man

@@profanepropane Lol sorry, by 'early' I thought you just meant pre-reunion. I'm actually not super familiar with their first two albums - I'll have to give them a spin.

Thanks for your detailed input on the notation stuff! It's definitely one of my weaker suits musically (still can't sight read for beans), though I also have some heterodox ideas about the way things should be notated. For instance, I personally find it easier to parse multiple dotted notes in a row, rather than the typical 'style guide' notation which reinforces metric subdivisions, especially in a simple meter like 4/4. The examples of this in my video are mostly double tresillos, which are a pretty well-established musical idiom, and the minimalistic dotted note pattern makes more sense to me than cluttering the measure with extra note heads and ties. That said, it would probably be better for me to stick to more standard interpretations in the future. I'm definitely going to look into how to get beamlets working in MuseScore - I hadn't really considered the concept much before, but you're right that they would improve readability for those sections. I really don't know what you'll think about my next video, which will be on the polymeters used in King Gizzard's 'Crumbling Castle'. As far as I know, there's no standard Western music notation for polymeters that adequately captures each component meter without 'privileging' one in the form of the time signature. I'm sorely tempted to use separate time signatures for each instrument, resulting in non-matching barlines between the instruments. It's probably not great for the performance aspect of the music, but might be better at portraying the conceptual aspect.

@@ThePopDescriptivist There are a few ways to go about notating true polymeters. One is to have separate time signatures for each different part (as you've mentioned) but that involves a shitload of f*ckery in MuseScore (or any other notation software for that matter). Another is to keep everything in what you consider to be the "overall time signature" and then use bracket-lines to show the rhythmic structures of the other parts (putting the start of the bracket over the top of the first note in the part's would-be time signature, and the end of the bracket on top of the last note before the "next bar" in the would-be time signature starts). A third option is the one I like the most, but it has the prerequisite that the different parts come in one at the time instead of being introduced all at once - write the first part in what is its own time signature, then change the time signature when the next part with a differing time signature comes in, etc. For extra clarity (which I prefer) you can combine this with the bracket-lines to show what happens to the "older" parts when a new part/time signature is introduced.

@acg0813 - looks like TH-cam deleted my previous response, probably because I put a temporary e-mail address in it. I added that address to my channel's about section, feel free to shoot me a message (though maybe also reply to this comment when you do so, just in case the temporary e-mail doesn't work for some reason).

Neat comment! There's definitely a through-line from world music traditions that use microtones to the blue notes of Western music - in fact you're liable to hear actual microtones in recordings by Aretha Franklin or Bill Withers among many others. As for your technique in approximating makams, I suppose in a worst-case scenario it might be better than nothing. But otherwise, I feel like trying to approximate microtones in 12-equal is a bit stuck in the Western viewpoint that there's something more fundamental about 12-equal, and that microtones can somehow be boiled down to those notes without a major loss of tonal quality. I've run into similar views - for instance, people saying that a neutral 2nd is just an out of tune minor 2nd, or that these intervals have roughly the same auditory impact - but the more I've played with microtones. the more I feel that up to a certain point they are really unsubstitutable. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. It is interesting you bring up different ascending and descending scales though, because makam itself sometimes has these, though more subtle differences in note tunings are not always explicitly described in formal representations of the makams. And just like the ascending/descending forms of the minor scale in Western music, it seems like in most cases (that I've heard) makams tend to sharpen ascending approach notes and flatten descending approach notes. Makes me wonder if there's a fundamental 'cognitive' appeal to this technique, based in how humans perceive music. Also, for the record, if you really want to try to hit quarter tones on a standard 12-equal guitar, it's better to use a 'neutral thirds' tuning. For instance, the strings might be E, G half sharp, B, D half sharp, F#, and A half sharp (from low to high). You'll need to figure out the unique fingerings of this tuning, and it has some hard limits in what kind of intervals and scales can be comfortably played, but it's still flexible enough to help a person explore quarter tones, and really get to know what they sound like. I actually recorded a whole album that way and I feel that it was reasonably successful, musically.

@@ThePopDescriptivist Yes, me too thinks there is a fundamental 'cognitive' appeal to the directional sharpening and flattening of notes in music, sometimes it's the lead tone in western music that needs a smoother resolution to the tonic, sometimes in jazz and classical it's approach tones, or chromaticism, in eastern music like you described. What about your album where you used 3rds tuning for a microtonal approach? I want to give it a listen please, what's the name?

Trauma Triad - 'Visceral Defects'. If you download it from Bandcamp (for free if you want) it comes with a pdf with some explanations of the tuning system and with tablature for the songs as well. If you're not into the metal/hardcore style I did on that album, I also have an album called 'A North Facing Window' which is more ambient/low-key electric piano music, though it's much easier to set up a MIDI keyboard to have custom tunings so it might be less interesting from that angle.

@@ThePopDescriptivist I understand now what the 3rds tuning offers, it's a brilliant idea I will try for myself, enjoying the first album except for the trashy vocals:) You did a very good job mixing post hardcore midwest emo style with the makams, that's my perception anyway, just a few chords with the microtones bother me really, other than that I like it, really melodic stuff, also proggy at times

Thanks, glad you can appreciate it! There's definitely a few tracks with makam influence - track 1 for instance uses the Hüseyni quite a bit. But chords are not really a significant feature in makam music theory, so beyond that I tried mostly to use 'harmonic series' chords mixed with regular 12-equal chords. There are some other less structured chords which end up being a lot more dissonant, but I felt that it was in line with the aggressive style of the music, and maybe something that can be appreciated more when you acquire a taste for it. Definitely try neutral 3rds tuning though, it's a lot of fun!

Good catch. A video this long is guaranteed to have at least one stupid mistake lol.

Also I have a feeling that “The Hungry Wolf of Fate” is named after that half-flat fifth, it’s very close to the “wolf fifth”

I use MuseScore for the notation. I haven't found any notation software which has visually appealing playback, so I just export a staff-only copy and a notes-only copy of the sheet music, work up a 'highlighted' copy of the notes, and in Adobe Premiere it's pretty straightforward (if tedious) to animate simply using cropping. As for the audio, I use a MIDI keyboard to record with AAS Lounge Lizard.

Also, good catch on the wolf fifth idea - that does seem like the band's sense of humor.

Thanks for the comment! To your first point, I was aware of that solo but felt it was too brief/fragmentary to bother including. If you wanted to categorize it, it basically uses the Hüseyni cins. Clearly an omen of things to come on FMB!

I actually have an analysis of 'Crumbling Castle' in the works, but a discography-wide analysis of polymeters (or better: unusual time signatures) might also be cool. We'll see.

@@ThePopDescriptivist awesome, I look forward to it!

Hey, I checked out a couple of your songs. There's some interesting stuff there, it definitely has an 'outsider art' kind of vibe. Harmonically, it reminds me of another relatively unknown musician called mitka (you can find him on bandcamp) - you both really lean into some of the less accessible quarter-tone intervals/scales and have a similar approach to instrumentation and compositional style. That said, from what songs I checked out, I feel like you overuse the shamisen a bit. Its quick decay means for the most part it has low overtone content, which makes it harder for the ear to detect relative 'in tune'-ness and thus for microtonal intervals be recognizable (especially when people don't have a strong familiarity with the fundamental pitches). I think a lot of microtonal musicians intuitively do the opposite: either picking instruments with high overtone content or artificially increasing overtones by increasing the gain on an amplifier, for example. Of course, it's all a matter of taste in the end, but that was my impression. If you have any sheet music or charts I'd be curious to take a look, if not just to see how it differs from King Gizzard's stuff. As I pointed out at the end of my video, there's a lot of territory they don't experiment with, and really 24 equal is more flexible than people assume despite some of the harsher intervals. Also, FYI, I definitely plan to do other videos on microtonality at some point, so hopefully that will give you even more ideas. Thanks for tuning in!

@@ThePopDescriptivisthey sorry for the delay but thank you so much for your feedback and for checking it out!! mean’s a lot! and yea i feel you the shamisen’s short attack muddies the microtones slightly even though its layered w microtonal bass and guitar, its sort of a distinct part to this projects sound but i can totally see how it would make things less precise and clear as to what exact microtone is being used on occasion. also thank you for the rec of that artist! cheers

One would hope, though supposedly for many big celebrities, the concentrated attention of their fans becomes tiresome after a while. Knowing how introverted Thom and the others are, they might fall into that category, and it's possible they would just find the whole concept of this video rather obsessive. I doubt they'll actually even see this video but if they do, all I can say is it comes from a place of deep (but not obsequious) respect. Now, if anyone wants to do a deep dive on music I'VE recorded, let me just say that flattery will get you everywhere ;)

I'm really glad you got so much out of the video! I agree with all your comments, you're definitely picking up what I'm putting down. Also, I'll have to check out Farya Faraji (not familiar with them) - I am still learning about all this myself, after all. Makam/maqam is such a rich tradition, and as someone who grew up in the West, there's so much 'learning by osmosis' that I've missed out on.

Actually that's a sick idea, doing an album of minimalistic electric piano covers of King Gizzard. I already put out an album of my own minimalistic microtonal electric piano music so the concept is definitely within my capabilities, lol. I wouldn't want to half-ass it though, so you may need to a wait a while before I can bring it to fruition. Nonetheless, thanks for the idea!

Of course! And again, amazing video. I started playing microtonal this past year; and this really just made things make more sense

You're correct that the key changes every 2-3 beats in the A section. To your other point, I don't think there's a way to get this song's particular sound without playing complicated chords. Also, Domi is so damn good at piano that this is probably not very difficult for her. If she never played something this complicated, it would be kind of like never driving your Lamborghini more than 30 mph.