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I was just reminded of these word from Terry Pratchett's Death . . . "Humans need to believe in things that aren't rrue. Otherwise, how can they become?"

Very grateful to have found you. Your words are a healing balm. Thank you. ❤️

❤

Thank you for bringing out the idea of nested layers of interaction. The reason we can't hear each other is because there are a nearly infinite number of perspectives that are not all coming from the same level of reality. Just to understand whether someone is tending toward the literal or metaphorical end of that spectrum, are they seeing from an acknowledged or hidden emotional frameword, have they developed pattern recognition in space or time or human behavior? We see things differently because our experiences are different. There are different things we notice.

Generous Justice offers unfathomable karmic dept. She accepts settlement in own sweat and blood.

Thank you for having this wonderful discussion with Andrea !

🤦

As a 30 year old...it's so hopeful to hear this. I've had older people say, "well, it's on you now. We've done our bit. Now it's your turn." And then I feel like pancake under a bus.

Just WOW.

While I appreciate his optimism, considering the actions and hypocrisy of the west (W.A.S.P.'s and the tradition of the protestant mind and imperialism)... over the last 600 years... and considering the intricacy of the machine built around western domination over those centuries.... Virtue alone cannot defeat such organized evil (yes, it is evil... look what its done to life and the planet). That said... "cunning as a snake" but with the love of the lamb... maybe that will do it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX~ ~XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX~ ~XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX~ ~XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ the web of life weaves a net bound by olive trees

I am crying with relief of hearing the truth of your words. Squarely facing the truth of where we are, no matter how scary or painful awakens an inner strength and renewed commitment to what is mine/ours to do. Gratitude to you Manda.

Trump is amazing, yes an inflection point - Trump will become the First World President

Find what is ours to do and do it with all our hearts. Very much this, thank you ❤

Great inspiration. And this feels spot on. Thank-you

Queer love beyond body enfatuation makes room for piggyback with no strings attached.

Excellent. Thank you

As an American who has been diagnosed with a panic disorder and has cried for two days I'm overwhelmed by just trying to be in my own body . Have no idea how to cope with4 years of this .

Lovbely Stuff!! :)

Accidental Gods was the very first podcast I listened to, about 5 years ago. It's still my favourite. This episode, full of wisdom, full of information, really speaks to my condition right now. Thankyou. 🙏🙏🙏🙏

Gooood!

A very interesting meeting. All the same points put forward here are also relevant to individuals burning wood in their individual wood burning stoves.

Very cool.

Delut9iponal woman with no apparent knowledge of math or physics. So babbling on about this and that is typical of western intellectual fools They can talk and talk but never come up with actual solutions. I wonder if they could recite the multiplication tables From memory. [

Brilliant!!

this interview was beyond inspiring...thank you to both of you heroic women!

Life and nature is most definitely a verb. Ceaseless timeless unfolding and enfolding is its essence and being. The Dao, the Law of Conservation of Energy, the Eternal Spirit, the Eternal Breath. The non-indigenous human perception has wrongfully perceived life as separation, as stocks only. This same perceiving has strongly influenced accounting and by association mathematics. Law and governance have in turn been servants to this schism-ing. The birth of calculus in the 17th century broke this schism-ing in mathematics but sadly hasn't influenced the conversion to a flow perception of life. A halfway house compromise has been reached where stocks and flows are employed particularly within engineering disciplines where even more power has been acquired to exploit nature, in particular the power to continue degrading the natural flowing state of nature by decimating biodiversity and severely interrupting the natural cycles and rhythms of nature that maintain a world all can continue to thrive on. I agree, focusing on CO2 and other carbon emissions as the sole cause for climate change is completely missing the cause of the problem. Sadly it is the stock perceiving mindset that has narrowed the issue to this single cause. It is a convenient singular cause that can be controlled, managed and more importantly, monetized. It can become an entry on accountancy documents. Another requirement is for all work performed in nature to be seen as inversely proportional to the state of entropy maintained by the biosphere of Earth. This means the less work performed by biodiversity to maintain the biosphere, the higher the state of entropy the biosphere will have. So to achieve a biosphere with a lower state of entropy, or higher order, demands a restoration/regeneration of biodiversity to perform the work to achieve this state. The current perception and concept of work is completely the opposite and is consequently the main driver for driving the biosphere to a high state of entropy, a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. The solution to a more harmonious path in and with nature therefore points to the relationship we have formed with nature overwhelmingly influenced by our accounting tools. If we changed this, the CO2 and other carbon emissions would naturally decline and our collaboration with nature when we re-merge with its flow to restore and regenerate nature will also gradually decline. To make this a reality accounting tools need to make flow accounting primary and stocks accounting secondary where all flows need to be maintained in a balanced state. The function of stocks accounting would simply be to record changes that bring about profit as a result of true non-exploitative innovation, a reflection of skill and knowledge development and most of all, care, love and wisdom. Thank you for this wonderful episode.

It is an interesting talk, but please stop interrupting.

How is economics of happiness different from utopia? And equality has never happened in human history, how are you changing the nature of human’s to conform to your vision? Even Marx recognized that all people would not accept his vision of the world…’something’ would have to be done with dissenter’s. Your particular vision will not match anyone else’s vision. Whose vision ‘wins’? I think your vision sounds ok….but maybe not every detail…so who is the decider? And one last detail…capitalism is only a system of economic’s in the U.S.. , the rest of the world is socialist, communist, dictator, other….300M (US)out of 8 billion. So it actually isn’t the dominate form of nation/state economic’s. Destroying capitalism doesn’t solve your problem of inequality. Over 7 billion live another way. It is shocking listening to the heads of state at the UN, addressing the assembly… after 79 years, it looks like 90% of those nation’s are not standing on their own two feet…. they do not have a system of government that equalizes happiness. It is very sad. PS: all ‘transition’ phases are bloody, that’s where you must ‘eliminate’ the dissenters. Genghis Khan was only a nice guy if you did exactly as he told you to do, ditto for Alexander the Great, and the Romans. And they did not practice capitalism and there was not equality of happiness… no greedy U.S. capitalist’s. 😂😂 Your idea sounds great, everyone will be happy, but I’m not an alpha….and there a lot of alpha’s that will have different idea’s.🥊🥊🥊

Thank you Manda for this discussion with Helena whose work I've been aware of since the late 1990s. The film, Learning from Ladakh, was absolutely fabulous and I would argue is an essential resource for teaching even to this day for a path to a viable ecological future for all life as we know it on Earth. Personally I've tried to practice the ethic of localism for years and it is very very difficult under the hegemony of the current chrematistic, scientific and engineering reductionist and soul fracturing system that invites separation from our natural relationship with Earth via, as mentioned, the overbearing seduction of getting 'wealthy' by simply hoarding and accumulating a something that is measured by simply ensuring a number gets bigger and bigger in what we call 'banks'. This of course is interpreted as 'growth', 'success', 'smart', 'clever', 'getting wealthier', 'power', etc etc. And yet the vast majority of people, even university educated people with PhDs fail to understand that at a local and global level, if an accounting balance sheet indicates there is someone with significant Capital, then another balance sheet in the system indicates the existence of another with a significant Liability. This is then used by the Capital holders as having a sense of some justification to bully and exploit the Liability holders. This 'justification' is backed by the sense of 'ownership' over the Liability holder because the Liability holder needs to be generating returns for the Capital holder to make a 'profit'. But this is within the context of a Balance Sheet of Nature, the rest of life on Earth, that is increasingly recording a massive massive Liability due to the destruction of natural capital Nature has worked extremely hard and patiently for thousands and millions of years to provision and most importantly to create and evolve the conditions that enabled the evolution of humans and all its co-living organisms who collaborated to self-create these conditions for co-existence. So the accounting system that provides the foundation for financial, economic and trading relationships guides and fosters a false sense of 'profit' and efficiency. This in turn warps governance and legislation that in turn feeds back to embed more deeply such misguiding and destructive accounting practices and behaviour. Take the Comprehensive Economic Trade Agreement(CETA) between the EU and Canada as an example. This is lauded as a template for replacing ISDS courts to the degree that it is promoted for drafting new trade agreements between the EU and Mexico and South Korea. Yet, all these trade agreement parties signed up to the Paris Agreement and the report into the benefits of this trade agreement to both parties didn't once make reference to emissions that such global trade would give rise to and respect the goals of the Paris Agreement. This report simply presented arguments and 'analysis' pointing to the benefits to GDP and the 'economic growth' benefits to EU members. This is ego stroking material for those we call politicians and policy makers, particularly those who achieve ministerial office, who are psychologically conditioned to only perceive exports as the only means to provide jobs and grow and get 'wealthy', to strut on the international stages to rub shoulders with fellow delusion-istas. Such conditioning is fostered by the mathematics of the accounting system that is purely designed to only 'profit' by receiving something from outside, from an external source. Such design doesn't foster balance and true profit and growth. The same mathematical mindset has been extended to the development of fossil fuel powered technologies where the 'profit' is regarded as the 'useful energy' out from a fossil fuel energy source while the non-useful energy is in the form of heat. The ratio of useful energy to source energy is regarded as a measure of the efficiency of the technology. Heat is consequently inefficient because it is low grade energy, or in other words, highly disordered and high entropy. But do these technologies contribute to the continuity of life on Earth by co-living with the living processes that evolved on Earth? Based on the following they do not. Self-organized living processes and systems operate completely contrary to fossil fuel powered technologies. Living processes 'profit' by outputting heat and loss of matter because this is the by-product of the work they perform to grow, self-maintain and regenerate to maintain a dynamic equilibrium state following the consumption of food, water and other forms of energy. They are in fact producing while they consume and this should be energetically in balance. They are working as they live to maintain an entropy - anti-entropy balance where the entropy is the dissipation of heat by the living organism while the anti-entropy is the self-creation of order and structure via the new cellular growth of the living organism. This is the exact same process at a global level where the Earth receives low entropy energy from the Sun and balances this by dissipating the same magnitude of high entropy energy. This low to high entropy differential is balanced by anti-entropy creation within Earth, the product of the multitude of living processes known as biodiversity hosted on Earth. Heat dissipation balanced with regeneration is true profit. True efficiency therefore should more correctly be related to what is termed 'non-useful energy' output or heat dissipation. For example a measure of efficiency could more accurately be derived from the work performed per unit of heat dissipated. From an economic perspective, this is a truer measure of productivity, not earnings per capita which is more akin to measuring each human being as a slave or serf! The mathematics of accounting therefore needs to be updated to reflect the energy dynamics of living systems/processes for managing relations between relating enterprises and communities where the profiting process is a product of balanced trading relationships while balancing the dissipation of heat with the anti-entropy regeneration that produces growth. Such growth would be ecological growth where the emphasis will be to become as efficient as possible by producing the greatest amount of work from the consumption of the least amount of energy transformed into heat. Such a metric of efficiency will have an enormous transforming effect on the technologies we develop. In fact our technologies could once again become more human and animal powered but without the slavish and serf exploitation of the past because the accounting system prevents concentration of wealth and hierarchical control and power. Rather it will promote the distribution of wealth, power, governance and knowledge resulting in technologies that could reinvigorate crafts and trades. Such a metric of efficiency can also function as a means of exchange rate between communities that use different currencies because a unit of energy is equal across all communities, energy cannot be created or destroyed as per the Law of Conservation of Energy, the 1st Law of Thermodynamics, and the exchange rate is linked to a measure of productivity that increases as it becomes more ecological. This removes the disrupting volatility of currency traders who trade currencies based on floating exchange rates between them all and the 'interest rates' offered by 'banks' around the world(don't get me started on the use of the stupid formula FV=PV(1+r)^n used to determine future value of a present valued asset!) and places the exchange rate into the honest hands of productivity achieved by an enterprise or community to achieve profit ecologically. Profit in such accounting is therefore sourced from within an enterprise or community in balance with the external through a reciprocal balance of giving and receiving(balanced trade). Such a process of profiting is a process of co-profiting because if one profits, all profit, and that includes Nature. All profit while transforming from global to local economies where higher volumes of economic trade flows are more local and slower rather than global and faster due to the profit process guiding enterprises and communities to ecologically develop themselves through care, respect, responsibility, creativity, knowledge, skill, love and wisdom. I hope sharing some ideas and thoughts on how to transition from our current death spiralling economic state to a more healthy ecological economic state wasn't boring or too arrogant. We need different thinking and to be honest I have no faith in the path to implement new regulation because as witnessed for the last 50 years and even longer, the environmental indicators are just getting worse and all the efforts made to bend these trends have simply failed. A paradigm shift is needed. The economic and regulatory system has simply been operating in a Ptolemaic fashion where changes have simply been epicycles added to the model to try and fit the changes being observed in reality in attempts to 'fix' them resulting only in being mired in and suffocating under mountains of laws, declarations and agreements. This is not going to cut it and it is principally caused by avoiding the source of the problem, the mathematics of the accounting system influenced by laws which has rolled continuously down to us over time influenced by perceptions of life and ideologies perpetuated by the 'powerful'. This system needs a Copernican shift and energy/thermodynamic science and mathematics can strongly influence that shift. In saying that there is absolutely no illusion about the powerful hold the current accounting system has not only on 'powerful' actors in the world but on every living human being. It is part of their identity and in some cases it is their identity. That is how powerful it is in conditioning us and directing us to ecologically self harm ourselves. Thank you again for this discussion. My gratitude to Helena.

Wow! Two brilliant minds covering so much here. As you discuss, the emmense juggernaut global economies power is at the root of the polycrisis we're in the thick of now. Of course these rubbish regulations over the giant global conglomerates who blackmail the governments so they can happily continue making their billions of dollars have to be changed. This consistent brainwashing of the general public over the decades by the clever seductive media campaigning ( which Adam Curtis's documentaries explain so effectively ) and the profit over planet politics, the trauma culture where the majority of the population live in fear of something that seperates us more, the draconian laws, all of this which keeps us dummed down and managable, yeah , how the hell do we overturn all that?? So good to hear you both grappling with these huge questions. Real examples of people living in fairer ways in systems which work for people and planet wellbeing need to be made more accessible and not online but actually in their localities. I've been thinking loads this summer about how the Cornish equivalent to Wales One Planet planning system, which has recently been implemented in Cornwall, could serve as the trojan horse to re imagine the more intelligent, wiser ways of interacting with one another and the living world. All I need right now is just one other keen to make it happen person... anyone ???

Gosh Manda, everything here is approaching great and yet hearing your frustration: But Actually, How? resonates most.

Just listened and need to listen again ..❤

It was what I needed to listen to. Amassing I found so many things I was thinking about. Profound serious questions and both so decent persons. ❤

Ponzi did expose the system, setting a high bar if only on paper.

Good to hear this interview, I really like his thinking. I wonder if he knows Charlie Massey, Call of the Reed Warbler, a brilliant treatise on regenerative farming.

Thank you so much for discussing this vitally important topic . I love this guy and the work he's doing. ❤

A beautiful conversation about intention! Yes, Yes, Yes!

In the past when pursuing a course in Renewable Energy it was a consideration that use of trees as a source of biomass would be sustainable. This of course didn't factor in biodiversity and many other cycles that go on within a forest. Thankfully I left the course for other reasons, primarily in disillusionment with the 'Renewable Energy' paradigm and that another solution or paradigm is required. This criminal destruction of forests to feed 'poer' plants such as DRAX is the outcome of late 1990s and 2000s 'Renewable Energy' thinking which is primarily non-holistic and non-cyclical yet parades itself as such. Secondly, it constantly shocks me how 'experts' from the social sciences and the business sectors manipulate and compose mathematical outcomes to serve their world views and fantasies and it's frightening that it is mostly people from these sectors who influence governance policies all around the world! Based on analysis over several years, I would argue they completely fail to appreciate the units of the metrics they compile to formulate any meaning from them. With such blind arrogance, is it any wonder the human species is on the cusp of self-annihilation!

Thanks, Manda and Mary. This was an informative discussion.

Just watched the Panorama episode. What a scam! As the spouse of a Canadian citizen from 'British Columbia'(I would prefer to use the indigenous name for this land if I only knew it), I'm asking the question where are the Canadian authorities in this whole scam? Sounds like a whole nest of corruption is going on there too and as per usual, Turtle Island continues to be a colony for resource extraction. As expressed previously, until Nature is accounted for as our one and only true bank we need to replenish and grow, and not continue accepting the many imposters that peddle virtual and artificial wealth, sadly such practices will continue around the globe to kill all life as we know it in a slow process of asphyxiation and toxicity.

I was on a "Renewable Energy" course 20+ years ago and didn't complete it because of these type of crazy inconsistencies. These solutions are products of the same dysfunctional technical solutioning that gave the 'agricultural and industrial revolutions'. The common foundation for such solutioning is of course the common wealth measuring system we call accountacy backed up by insane legal systems twisted by sophistry that incorporates dysfunctional mathematics used to completely dissociate human communities from their natural beingness and environments. This extinction forcing accountancy system is completely disconnected from the thermodynamics and energy cycles of life. It confuses production with consumption when production should be a collaboration with Nature to increase the wealth of this one and only true bank which we and all other species profit from. Consumption of course can be sourced from the products of this production and provided it is less than production we profit collectively. This is true interest. This is service to the enhancement of life and life will reciprocate by serving us in return. With this perspective how can one perceive ownership of another or anything? In fact such a concept is completely silly and stupid. As Nora Bateson questions 'Where is the edge of you or me?'. Yet we are prisoners of words on paper known as laws and constitutions that fail to express the one true conservation law of our existence - you are because all is and all is because you are, serve with love and care and you will be cared and loved. Thank you. Keep up this vital work.

White lies, big lies, statistics; how do we do it? Canada regulations on Harassment and Violence enforce silence culture. Emotions shall not be expressed or triggered in the work place. Any concern is strictly reported upwards, or forever hold your peace.

Listened to this lush conversation 5 times and each time I listen and gather up more brilliant insight and confirmation that I'm not alone with my intuitions and I just need to tune in to their frequency more frequently. ❤Manda❤

Another very interesting topic and speaker ( with a lovely accent and manner , as you too have Manda.) I've learnt lots about Probiotics. What's staying with me and niggling is when Joe was explaining all the hoops needed to be gone through to have the allmighty regulators allow a product like this to called safe to be sold when they allow and have allowed countless poisonous chemicals through , which has created this whole shocking poisoned state we and our planet are in, of which you detail in this podcast. Who's the hoop maker? New radical regulations have to be enforced on these huge companies who care much more about profit margins than who or what they poison in the process. Massive fines big enough to bring them down if they don't naturally clean up their act.

Thank you

Climate change due to burning of oil has been hijacked for entertainment, distraction, profit. The conspiracy and the precipice coexist. From the Wuhan lab to the fishmarket, we work with the microbiome with and without crispr.

This was great and rings true from my experience. 20 years ago my colleague and I won a huge govt grant to research the effect of using/not using chemicals in commercial cleaning. Very revealing. We had some impact. I have not used any chemicals in my house since. Significant mindset change needed in BAU Sector and in the cleaners themselves. We did get some converts though.

Very interesting, thank you. I will be getting the book.

Ideas from this interview put in some pieces in an ideas I have about resources and information management. Decentralization is not enough.. we can think more about tooling that work from individual not from organizations. What if everybody have their own implicit Masdon server to have control over their information and communication? What if we can choose where our taxes go individually at least for a part of it?