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How far off would you say?

Probably the 'debate' is what ZFC wants ? It's in the interests of individual lube manufacturers ( a general principle ) to either have no test standards or their own which favor the material properties of their own products ( e.g. full tension test V derailleur setup ) . Currently there is no international test standard for bike chain lubricants so one needs creating. It's a 'chicken or egg' situation. No doubt ZFC will take note of the debate ( if he is told the sources and gets the chance to read it ) and may evolve the test procedures ?

@dawn_rider I was your 'first' subscriber , and that became the case a year ago when I left a post relating to Adam Kerin , recommending a Connex Wippermann products test program . I saw your response saying you have used their chains , which caught my eye and raised some interest . I have most of their products in stock and use them on all my bicycle fleet , as well as those of close friends . I have a bicycle repair and build business like that of "Bike Shed Boy" . Look at his channel if you can .

In my previous comment I should have made it clear that I think a lack of industry standards benefits lube manufacturers who either know they don't have a competitive product or don't care , NOT all of them. Standards can be a marketing asset as long as all the major industry players agree on them. Choosing a particular test to make a product seem better than competitors is not good , especially for a test not representative of real world use. Since the ZFC tests are NOT being contested by quite a few of the major industry players ( at least I haven’t seen it ) suggests they think they are reasonable tests. Even M-O have had a couple of years to criticize and to my knowledge, publicly have said nothing.

@@dawn_rider The Australian distributour for Muc - Off doesn't want to give hints about their chain lubricant test methods . This is why they haven't commented on Adam Kerin's channel .

​@ If M-O publicly state their test protocol , everyone can scrutinize it. It's acceptable for companies to withhold ingredients or details about a production process. Hiding details of a testing process creates a poor public image and leaves room for speculation. If M-O had a valid case against ZFC it's likely they would have crushed Adam legally by now ? They probably just thought that his impact is minimal and that most of their customers would know no better / are apathetic ?

Great point, thanks for posting your comment. I once let the wax get super-heated just to see what would happen, and yes, it caught on fire. I'll work on a video regarding safety issues with the waxing process. Thanks again!

Is it okay if I screenshot your comment to use in another video?

@@vitalbikechains I trust you so yes .

I need to be precise so customers get consistent chains. And after about 25 chains or so, I have to add more wax but can only fit in 1/2 a dose.

Because not being precise impacts cost and efficiency.

Double thumbs up!!

Wait, you mean the "specs" of the number of links and the weight isn't enough information to decide which chain to get??? As far as the EPT, I would think there is some kind of performance trade off. The one I had is going on a BMX loaner bike which is a kids size and won't be used much so it will probably last forever.

​@@vitalbikechains I've got both the Nickel plated and EPT versions of the Z8.3 . Possibly the application longevity on the EPT version is shorter but I've not made my mind up yet. I'm not criticizing your video as you can only go with what KMC will give you. Chain manufacturers should give detailed specs of whatever they make, not vague meaningless rubbish that doesn't let you make a reasonable comparison ( they would probably all have to do it ) . I have a STEM degree / working background so probably look at chains differently than most of your viewers / customers ? I once worked for a large company and it felt think the marketing dept ( not where I worked ) lived in an alternative reality. In my opinion, companies use information obfuscation to hide product weaknesses.

@@vitalbikechains When I said 'longevity' in the last comment I meant for wax lube ( some people may have been confused ? ) . Weight for E-bike chains is probably irrelevant and people racing probably won't be using Z8 or X8 chains ? The number of links is important , more so for long chainstay bikes like for touring which may also have a triple front derailleur / chainrings and/or need a high rear derailleur capacity. If you have a Brompton, by default they only need around 100 links ! I also had a look at the Connex 808 chain you mentioned. At least they say the pins are hardened , but who knows what the hardness of the surface they contact is ?! Sounds like the inner links are Nickel coated ( how thick ? ) stainless steel but there are several grades and some are much harder than others. To the layman you would struggle to make an informed purchase based on the given specs. The marketing material says "twice as good" but does not say compared to what e.t.c. Ultimately this is why you need something like the ZFC chain life data to ensure your not being 'ripped off' .

In 2025 I want to get more knowledgeable with e-bike options in general. BTW, do you just have the dual kitty-cat wax pot or do you have a third one?

@@robertmcfadyen9156 my connex 808 lasted a long time and had a hard life due to intentional neglect.

@vitalbikechains The Connex are on all my fleet .

Right! I keep forgetting about that trick.

Shimano claims it reduces wear by 20%. And that it sheds dirt better and is quieter.

Well, yes you certainly go and buy a bigger pot. You can also just remove inner bucket and it creates a lot more volume. I use the buckets to keep from having 8 or more wax warmers compared to only 3.

Great point! When I degrease , m6100, m7100, hg601 I make sure they don’t sit naked for very long.

I have a little bit of a theory that re-waxing a chain has better wax adhesion than the original waxing. But I haven’t really thought about a way to test this

@@vitalbikechains Better wax adhesion probably increases the treatment longevity ? Re-waxing a wet chain reduces treatment longevity, probably because water covers the chain metal and the wax doesn't mix with water. I note from ZFC that drip waxes don't last as long as their full immersive counterparts and they often contain water ( so a good idea to let the drip wax dry ) . It likely isn't the smaller wax volume that causes this because most of the wax in immersive waxing gets quickly squeezed out. If you see a liquid e.g.hot wax 'beading up' on a surface that's probably an indicator that it's not bonding well. Ideally you want wax to spread evenly over a chain and not 'bead up' . I have a theory that in a 'bad' immersive waxing the chain will not be stiff when cooled to room temperature but I am not going to deliberately re-wax a wet chain !

Have you seen any new consumer packaging where shimano has removed the blue and it’s a just gray/silver box? ie Hg93

Right on! I didn't enter the DIY realm at this point. Do you have a recommended brand of paraffin to use? I did a test with Gulf wax a while back but was told that wasn't adequate.

@@vitalbikechains Zero Friction Cycling, an organization that has done a ton of testing on bicycle chain lubes, has shown that immersive wax treatments (including plain paraffin) are better than drip wax, wet lubes, and greases. As far as I know, paraffin is paraffin, and Gulf wax is paraffin, so it should be as good as any. ZFC showed some other waxes as better than paraffin, but at a much higher cost. For a budget solution, I think paraffin would be the right answer.

@@dawn_rider thank you! The shop is all secured so everyone’s future chains will be okay.

@@ShawnIsBatman I made a couple of double dose endurance chains, one went out to a pro rider, so I’m curious to hear back from him.

I’m using the Endurance as a standard for customer chains to extend life (unless they prefer a different blend). But for me personally, I agree with you, just rewax more often with the base wax if you already have that process nailed down.

The additives are primarily for those of us who do rides too long for a single waxing.

@@Karovaldas my next video, you know what I do? Break it in half. I thought it would make a mess, but it doesn’t.

Great insight! Do you have a model number of a caliper I could reference?

@@vitalbikechains It is a Mitutoyo given to me by Mitsubishi Electric .

I didn’t get that vibe from Josh. Now that I’ve started with the chips, I like this because one customer wants one thing, another something else and I can just make it. BUT, I think that a single dose Endurance blend would make sense to Silca.

@@dawn_rider as far as flaking, I finished making the video before any chains went on the shedding machine so that’s why it wasn’t commented on. But, I did shed 5 chains and I’d guess that I had a third of the flakes compared to just the base wax.

@@vitalbikechains How difficult was breaking the wax / chain link bonds compared to normal ? In winter when it is literally freezing it is very difficult to break them by hand, and that is with 'normal' wax. Might be an idea to put an air cooled freshly 'endurance waxed' chain in the fridge then try it.

@@dawn_riderI don’t really know of a difference since I load the chain in a machine and it does the work. I do have to articulate a few links to load it, but I didn’t feel a difference.

Silca has confirmed that the Endurance Chip is indeed homogeneous. So I’ll be cutting them in half to add with 125gms of the wax to top off my pots.

The KMC digital gauge is definitely the standard and what I use when servicing customers chains. But still trying to find a more cost effective solution.

@@newttella1043 I was shooting for weird! Sorry to waste your time. It was an item I was looking to carry, but I think it could be confusing to some. And I wanted to make sure I had the right part number if someone wanted to get the actual item I showed and not the other version.

That’s a great point. Also one of the reasons why I don’t care for the style with the swing arm & pins.

Thanks for the tip on the SuperBs. I'll put it on my list of tools to try and maybe carry in stock.

@@vitalbikechains Just seen Shimano TL-CN10 QUICK-LINK tool WP-Y13022000 is a similar design but with a wire latch to hold handles together when not in use.

I agree with questioning the benefits on some treatments when it comes to waxed chains. KMC and SRAM brands included. Stickers, that was version 1.1 and the improved 2.0 sticker now comes on the chains.

I’m right with you on this. I’ve tested out some of Oz’s ideas, and they don’t always pan out for me. I am designing a second chain machine that will run chains with a slight load, then I could have something with more control than my riding.

Thanks for visiting my channel! Regarding the pot questions, the amount of wax varies due to each chain pulling out 8-10 grams of wax. So the day might start at 300 grams, then end up being 250 grams at the end of the day. I've never weighed it, but I think these numbers are in the ball park. I do not know how the power is controlled in this unit. As for starting up the pot with the chain on top, this would work for the first chain of the day, but not really practical for each chain waxed in a day. I would actually like a stir pot / wax pot combo but I think I'd have to make that. Possibly a hot plate/stir plate exist, but I just swish a few times. The pot says it goes to 257F, but I haven't tried that much heat. Keep in mind, adding a chip and then a chain will temporarily drop that temp. If you're thinking about getting this pot, let me know and I'll try it out to see if the actual wax gets that hot. I think this pot was $35 US.

@@vitalbikechains I think your pot model is FHC-E2052 which is rated at 100w , 500ml capacity , 30-125℃, but that pot seems to have variable power usage so it's difficult to compare your wax warm up times to any other pot. A 15 minute temperature recovery time is probably reasonable for most people because they will likely have a bigger pot ? ( will shorten the time from a larger hot bowl mass ) . 8-10g of wax per chain seems a lot. I would expect about half of that , unless your chains have hollow pins and you are pulling them out of the wax at almost the skinning over temperature ? . I tried to send you a ZFC link but youtube is deleting comments with links from me today ( a massive issue you may be aware of ? ). I was just curious from a versatility perspective if your pot would get to the stripchip temperature. I am thinking of going to the 2 pot system so I might consider one for that. Thanks for offering 🙂 Hot plates with stirrers tend to be expensive compared to small slow cookers ( not Silca's ! ) . Any temperature sensors in the pot would likely read more realistic values, depending on where they actually are.

@@vitalbikechains Regarding your 8-10g wax per chain and temperature please see th-cam.com/video/ZEfi2HOfqpM/w-d-xo.html . I questioned Silca's advice as it creates a barrier for people and is unnecessary .

The 8-10 grams is not what actually gets on the chain. It’s probably half that. If I do a 138 link chain, it will pull 10 grams but a lot of that is waste due to a clip that holds a master link or ID tag as well as some drips that don’t make it back into the pot. Then after shedding you knock off a whole bunch more. I do have a video planned for actual wax weight on a chain.

Adam does a great job getting to the point on the temp thing. From my perspective, I have to do everything I can to have at least as good a product as ZFC and Silca. Maybe I waste some virgin wax in the process, and it does take longer to get the wax to my optimal temp, but it’s worth it to me. And I also use the shed wax for pot#1 on re-service chains, so it’s not really wasted.

Absolutely. I looked at doing a DYI wax years ago, but after you buy all the stuff, it made sense to leave the wax blending to experts like Silca, molten etc. Cost per chain with a bag of Silca is like 40 to 90 cents, depending on a lot of factors.

@@vitalbikechains It is actually about $5 per chain in Australia .

I have seen people have luck with boiling hot water rinses. I feel like I’m just driving grit from the outside to the inside of the chain when I’ve tried this. Maybe I just need a different technique. I do an alcohol cleaning as regular maintenance with the chain on the bike. But not a bath. If I’m cleaning it that much, it’s just going be a full strip down. Remember, pot 1 is sacrificial wax.

@@vitalbikechains You rinse the chain in degreaser two or three times initially until the degreaser is clear first . The isopropyl is the final rinse .

Correct. But that’s for new chains. And sram chains can be more like 4 degreasing baths. If you only do a few chains a year, the stripper products by Silca and CeramicSpeed make that one step. If you do hundreds of chains a year, those strippers don’t make financial sense.