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Ip man totally modified the forms wsl was his main instructor so who knows what Was taught to him

@@SI-ln6tc There are three families of wing chun: the tan, bong, and fook. In short these are techniques that use the radial edge, the ulnar edge, and the middle part of the hand / forearm, respectively. Knowing this, techniques can be classified into one of these families; e.g. gan sao being part of the bong family or jut sao part of the fook family. These are also known as the three seeds of wing chun. Now, there are 8 basic hands of Wing Chun, called the 詠春八手 攤 - tan sao 膀 - bong sao 伏 - fook sao 圈 - hun sao 耕 - gang sao 刮 - gua sao 捆 - koon sao 標 - biu sao (biu jee) However, as I said, there are only three seeds, and those are tan, bong and fook. So when you apply the three seeds in the forms for the first time, you need to do them 3 times to perfectly learn them. Repetition secures strong foundation, so that's the Wing Chun principle, but there is also a philosophical point of view behind this which has to do with the three "jewels" or the three "treasures" of the Buddha. Anyway, the main answer to your question has to do with the 3 seeds, those are what you repeat 3 times in the Taos.

What most people choose to ignore is the William Cheung knows perfectly all the other forms as well, exactly the way that Ip Man and the others are performing them and teaching them. He has even taught them to his own brother. Then, after Ip Man passed away, he started teaching widely the traditional secret version and not the standard Wing Chun that everyone else knows. So now, why did Ip Man teach this version to William and not to others, including his own sons? Because first of all his sons started learning from Wong Shun Leung after they were 40 and Ip Man was already dead. Secondly, William was also being taught Red Boat Wing Chun by a Triads master, so Ip Man saw the similarities with the Leung Bik version and not the Chang Wah Shun version that he was teaching (which of course is still Wing Chun). Also, because William's dad was a high rank policeman and was protecting Ip Man who was a drug addict, so he wanted in return from Ip Man to teach his son his "secret" Leung Bik Wing Chun and not the basic Wing Chun that everyone else was being taught, not only by Ip Man but also from all the other Chang Wah Shun students.

@@Mario-R-3232 Not sure where you heard these stories but I think most of what you are saying is true. Opium was not really cracked down on in china at the time as far as I know and Master Cheung told me it was more socially acceptable than we would think. Ip man and Master Black face Nam frequented the same opium dens. For some time I wasn't sure Master Cheung was being honest about knowing a secret form of wing chun. I became convinced of the truth after Benny Meng (Curator of the wing chun museum) published his reasearch and showed pictures of a form of "Weng Chun" being practiced elsewhere that most people never heard of. This style had almost the same foot work and central line theory as William cheungs "traditional wing chun". If the 2 systems were fingerprints I'd say they were a 94 percent match. Very different from the "Hong Kong School". I've now come to realize Master cheung was telling the absolute truth. The bigger mystery to me is why Ip man taught him rather than his own sons. Maybe the above "police" story is the answer iv'e been searching for. At any rate, I found your post compelling and wanted to write my experience as an add on to yours but I'm also posting this for anyone who wants to do their research and put this all to rest. William Cheung was telling the truth. There was a different system of wing chun. He knew it, taught it and in my opinion it is more comprehensive then the original Hong kong version I learned in my early days.. Sorry if that pisses people off but I think we all must remember that martial arts are living systems that can evolve and become better over time while still keeping old traditions in mind.

@@Pretender8100 My friend, I cannot write more things online on a public forum, but if you wish to get into details, I'm happy to email you, so you can post your email here by replying to this note/message of mine and once you hear back from me via email, you can then revisit the forum here and delete your email.

William Cheung left for Australia in the 60's not 1973. He had a fight with some triads on the ship going there, it is a documented fact.

William was Bruce Lee's senior in Wing Chun. William had been training with Ip Man for many years and lived with him. Bruce later told his students in the USA that William (Bill) Cheung was the best street fighter that Bruce had ever seen. Dan Inosanto, Bruce's student, wrote this fact in the first few pages of William Cheung's book 'Bil Jee: The art of thrusting fingers' '', and visited William in Australia, and also wrote that he 'stands in awe of William's skill ' . So...there's that. Period. Peace.

I get what you're saying. But this particular system is actually most useful against those particular knucklehead opponents who charge at you coming forward throwing all their committed weight at you. Where you step to the side and watch them pass right in front of you which is your frozen moment in time to unload on their diaphragm, neck or mastoid area. Otherwise it's all Philip Bayer VT from here on out.

@@Praxonis I am 50 and have been training in martial arts every single day of my life since I was 10 and have mastered among other systems and styles, 5 different Wing Chun lineages and have personally trained with both Grandmasters Wong Shun Leung in Hong Kong in my early twenties and William Cheung in my mid twenties. They are both amazing, as are the other grandmasters that I have trained with, including Garrett Gee (Red Boat), Eddie Chong (Pan Nam) and Wong Nim Yi (Mei Gei Wong Wing Chun). I have nothing but respect and admiration for the amazing Phillip Bayer and for what he has accomplished, and of course for the excellent Wang Zhi Peng who is probably one of the best Wing Chun masters in the world today, but STOP comparing lineages and masters, you only hurt Wing Chun. If Phillipe Bayer's style works better for you, then by all means continue practicing it, as should Riki Jenkins continue practicing TWC, both lineages are equally good and so are the grandmasters, but there's no garbage, it all depends on the practitioner. A good William Cheung practitioner can kill a moderate Phillip Bayer practitioner and vice versa, and all of you Wing Chun students need to realise that. I do of course have a personal opinion of which system is better and which Master is better too, both as a teacher and as a fighter, but I prefer to keep it for myself than causing useless discussions, but what I can tell you is that the differences are very little and again: it depends on the student and what works better for anyone and how hard you'll work on it, it's as simple as that.

@@Praxonis Dear friend, there's no Philip Bayer system, there's the Wong Shun Leung Wing Chun, which Phillip Bayer was taught. And it's really amazing, as is Philip Bayer himself. As for TWC, the opponent freezes during the drills, so you can learn more movements, it wont be like that in a real situation, but this helps your body and hands learn things and then apply them automatically to the level that you need. As I said, I have mastered both systems and I know exactly what you're trying to say, but I have trained for years with both grandmasters in Hong Kong and Melbourne, one is better than the other, you cant really tell, and the differences aren't as many as you probably think, when you get to master the systems. My point is, and the reason of my initial comment, that Wing Chun practitioners really need to stop all the politics and also argue about which lineage is better and which master is better. It's all about what works for you best and how good you will master it .You have done TWC, it didn't work for you too good, while the Wong Shun Leung system did, that's absolutely great. For me, both of them worked more than fine in more than 100 fights (due to me professional as an ex bouncer at clubs and casinos and also security expert and current vip bodyguard worldwide for more than 20 years), but none of them as good as another lineage, but as I said: that has to do with me and nobody else, you shouldn't compare lineages and masters, just do as good as you can, what works for you best, it's as simple as that.

@@Praxonis My friend, first of all thank you for the conversation. As I said, I have nothing but admiration for Phillip Bayer and what he has accomplished. First of all, let me point out that he is my Si-Hing (senior Wing Chun brother) and was already a Wing Chun Master, when I started my own training with Grandmaster Wong Shun Leung. He was a martial arts phenomenon and could beat up most of the advanced practitioners using just one arm, grandmaster was so proud of him. I didn't know that he has recently enriched the WSL VT with his own experiences, but all masters do that. However, if you enjoy WSL VT, please do also have a look at Master Wang Zhi Peng, you wont regret it. Now, regarding Cheung's Wing Chun, yes it's more effective against brutal brainless opponents who will charge straight at you, but it's not at all useless during other more skilled opponents, on the contrary, it's also very good, just not as good as the WSL VT. Yes, it's basic principle is to step to the side and fight on the blind side, but if you cant manage to do that, it's still very effective fighting straight forward too. The WSL VT is just better on that specific aspect. But, TWC is better in some other parts, like for example the hand defending blocks, they are better, trust me. Anyway, the main principle in all real Wing Chun is one: attack your opponents attack! If you don't do that, it's not real Wing Chun. Also, please know that I haven't mastered 7 martial arts, but only 2, and those are Krav Maga and Wing Chun, but as far as Wing Chun itself is concerned, I have mastered 5 different lineages, but in Wing Chun, if you get to master one lineage, then the others will take you less than the half time. So WSL VT took me 3,5 years to master (I was already a complete martial artist when I first started though with more than 10 years of training in Krav Mage, boxing, Tae Kwon Do and JJ, so not just a beginner, otherwise it would have taken me at least 5 years), but then Cheung's Wing Chun only took me 1,5 year and then the other lineages about a year each, especially Red Boat's Garrett's Gee's Wing Chun took me less than a year as the similarities with Cheung's Wing Chun are many more than the differences. My advice will always be the same: do what works best for you and try to avoid comparisons between lineages, as what works for you better, might not work so good for others or what works for them, may not work for you. I, for example, (and I wouldn't usually write that but since we are having a personal conversation here and hope that others wont read as I don't want to create conflicts between Wing Chun brothers of different lineages), think and feel that the more superior lineage is that of Mai Gei Wong Wing Chun (which isn't even a Ip Man lineage, as Pan Nam and Red Boat aren't either) and the best Master by far, both as a fighter and as an instructor, is Wong Nim Yi, but again, that's a personal opinion and what works best for me, however I say that after being many years in the field and out of experience. Take care!

@@Praxonis Hello my friend. Yes, grandmaster Wong Nim Yi is out of this world, believe me, I have never seen anything like that before in my life. If you ever find yourself in Guanzu China, do make sure to visit his school, he is always there and very happy to touch hands with anyone, and he will never hurt you. I will be there again for 3 months from 1st June 2021 to 30th of August and will be training every day (twice a day actually) in private lessons with him. Regarding your question, I haven't mastered Cheung's system in that level, not even his son Andrew has, I'm not sure about Keith Mazza, but I think he hasn't either. I have reached the instructor (Si-Fu) level, which is level 10 in that system, and that was more than 22 years ago when he didn't even have the master levels in the system yet, if I remember right, so I haven't proceeded with the master levels that teach those things, although I have followed several such seminars, very impressive and probably effective I must say. The biggest problem with TWC for me nowdays is that it has become too commercial over the last decade or more, it wasn't like that 25 years ago, and that is why it was also more effective back then, and also because all the others developed and adjusted to new situations, eg like MMA etc, while they didn't. Now everyone passes levels for fun, just for the money, while it was very difficult to get levels back then, when William Cheung was teaching himself and doing the exams himself, but after his wife took over the company -as it did become a company, a business, she made it exactly that: a business company, so that's why todays practitioners of TWC, 9 out of 10 times, they will loose to Philipp Bayer's practitioners of the same level, if they touch hands with them. But look at William Cheung's old senior personal students, like Keith Mazza, Eric Olam, Anthony Anette, Zac (whatever his surname is, he's in the UK), Philippe Redmond, Diddier and others. Who can touch them? They are invincible. Those were real Cheung's Wing Chun practitioners. Last 15 years or maybe even a little more, they've lost it completely, I hope that his son Andrew who is now taking over the schools as the new rising grandmaster, to go back doing what his dad was doing during his youth and bring the lineage back to where it deserves to be and its former glory.

@@Praxonis I had heard of him after he died about 6 - 7 years ago, many people of the Kung Fu world were talking about this. So sad. Yes, he was a great fighter and as you said, one of the original Cheung's Sifus, cant find such guys today in TWC, as I said, I hope that Andrew Cheung will see it as his father did in his youth and not as his mother and make the linage worthy again and not a business, otherwise within the next few years, they'll become worse even than Leung Ting's lineage, who by the way is by far the less talented master I have ever met and the only one who refused to touch hands, and that was 20 years ago, so he was still pretty young.

It's so obvious, I can't believe so many are still practicing Modified WT. Luckily I got Cheung's books early before any videos were around!

@@Kryptoz Also look into Yi Chuan, of Wang Xiang Zhai. post training stances/postures, and Hsing-I. This will improve speed, power and footwork. Check out this new guy Tu Tengao. He mixed these styles, super fast.

@@ianweir2115 My current view, after much research is that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun (Garrett Gee) is the most complete and authentic WC still around.

@@Kryptoz I just checked out Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Sil Lim Tau. FINALLY I see the opening done with proper half moon step. Footwork is the difference between modified and Traditional Wing Chun. Now what I didnt like is his left/right hand will cross his centerline for Blocks and Hume sau. Now if he Faces the point of contact when he blocks, by stepping and shifting your weight then maybe he can get away with that... with out getting trapped. I also under stand that the circles in Sil Lim Tao are larger and slower and in real fight, circle must be much tighter. But in total, I'm glad you showed me this , this looks like a good lineage. I have been watching Tu tengyao, but he is using hsing I and some other moves off his wing chun base.(and I think nthe camera is sped up.) His Footwork is incredible. We did the same after learning William Cheung system. We needed more speed and power, so we added yi chuan post training, and hsing I footwork off the Wing Chun base. The styles mix well.

@@ianweir2115 Info of Hung Fa Yi is kept closed door. There are no released videos of GM Gee, I only found one vid where he was sitting still. Chum Kui, Bil Jee, MYJ, Dao all secret. The book 'Mastering Kung Fu' shows Wooden Dummy section 3 to be almost like Cheung's. I do a hybrid Sil Nim Tao of Cheung's / Hung Fa Yi advanced version. Benny Meng fell out with Gee and left to steal Black Flag/ HKB jewels.

@jester26uk Yeah, I'm gonna believe some fat asses compared to a man with a chiseled body. Cause he is lazy. wink

wsl vt is way better ...

I hope you find a caring teacher. I agree. As a teacher we need to let a student discover THEMSELVES rather than trying to get them to be "us". Have faith and confidence. If you are drawn deeply to the art, then Wing Chun is buried within you. You only need to look inward rather than outward. God bless you.

I agree Amen

When I watch 70 year old William Cheung doing this, and then watch a younger fat man that looks constipated with less energy, I make up my own mind.

lulz so your saying the WSL version is no good?

There is no real wing Chun because wing Chun was thought to different people from different placeses in the early days

@@josharinze5714 that how much you understand about wing chun . Wing chun started about 300 years ago from a Buddhist Nun Ng Wei and she escape from the Manchi then kept a low profile then taught her Philosophy to an Orphan girl who she named Yim wing chun .

He developed it a lot for himself he made it better in my opinion by adding more mobile footwork in it also this is just demonstration of movement

From my experience all of his students I encountered advance with a "false-footed chicken step" and then they rotate outwards off of the ball of the foot rather than the heel. It's too slow to be effective and non-committal.

Certified by ip man and just because he modified his own style hes fake fucking hell some idiot

Yes, he is performing cham kiu wrong... but slowly indeed.... still wrong.

Movie Wong what