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you're quick!! Thanks so much

@@dukeofcurls3183 hi there. Yes I've obviously read that and considered what he says carefully. Taking all the available evidence my personal view is as it is here.

It would be easier to believe what was printed in the first edition if it was possible to play it! One of the strongest arguments I feel is that everything Beethoven writes is playable. This is definitely not true for many composers. And so that is huge evidence why the 2 printed minims is an error.

Yes you're absolutely right. I think people often believe that the score must be 100% accurate and there are no mistakes. This assumes it was always possible to make all the right checks and then make changes, which obviously often it wasn't!

will do. I'm going as fast as I can!

Thank you. Your point about Schubert 9 is very interesting! I would love to hear how this happened. Was it a misunderstanding of the composer's autograph score?

@@adrianbending1 Thank you for your reply . The point is, that historical minded people (like Harnoncourt) see this "thing" Schubert wrote ion the autotgraph as a diminuendo. But Analysis shows, that Schubert used to enlanrge the accent, if it´s meant to be very intensly. So you end up with recordings like this th-cam.com/video/iYhtSG9fQYk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=V3h7HMcwOy9ikwLs - with a diminuendo on the last "chord". This information is contained in the preface of Eulenburg edition of the symphony.

Some additional things: I forgot it´s a 2/4 time, so it´s the last four bars. All publications show a dim. on the last chord. According to those it seems, Schubert intended something akin to a modern "fade out". But that´s not right, as expained above. But maybe, there is a lot more to know. (As always)

@@marksteinhaeuser thanks for these messages. I've never investigated this one closely, but I have heard and been asked to play the dim and been surprised by it. The more work I do in this area leads me to think that mistakes are more commonplace than "amazing ideas used once" ! For example, Beethoven 5. The first ever roll at the end of a symphony is really strange, (and amazing say the fans of the weird notation), but it was NEVER ever copied? Isn't that odd if it is so amazing? Same with the Schubert. A dim is a really weird thing to do at the end of a piece like this. So weird that others didn't do it. It's the sort of ending for a reflective short tone poem, not a great symphony! And so I think it is belief in two things that is important: the fact that humans male mistakes, combined with most of the time people write things that are sensible and somewhat predictable..and the genius of both the works we are talking about is displayed very prominently throughout them. (just not in the last few bars!!)

@@adrianbending1 I totally agree. Sometimes the craving to find some act of unthinkable genius is a kind of psyhcological condition that makes people blind to the fact that odd things may only be a misinterpretation or simply a mistake. It´s called over-thinking or over-interpretation. For me personally it is great to know, where those mistakes came from, which is the most interesting aspects of this video. Especially in the case of Beethoven´s 5th, this simple and obvious solution to what´s up with the timpani in the last bar make me even more confortable with the piece as a whole.

Thanks for this! I am glad you found this interesting. I will be doing more of these, mostly orchestral but maybe piano too. So maybe there might be some other gems that you might like. Good luck with your studies - I'll take a closer look at your channel soon!

@@adrianbending1 I'd love to hear more, thank you!

She was on our Young Player scheme and so it was nice to invite her back to play with us!

Glad you enjoyed it!

Hi. Yes this is a more common way to tune and probably a better way to teach beginners. If you know you are turning them equally then the order doesn't matter, but generally I agree that opposites is best most of the time

Thanks! Yes I think many players took the same view as your teacher. But I made this because I still see people questioning it... amazing. Perhaps it is weird to make a 13 minute film about 1 bar..! But I am glad people also find this story interesting, particularly as it has become such a famous non-moment in our repertoire!

Why not! Just make sure it is slow enough so what the timpanist wants to play is possible and audible. The irony is that many of us roll quite slowly, and so a roll is often actually slower than measured 32nds or 16nds.

@@adrianbending1 I'm actually never sure about missing notating unmeasured rolls for percussion. Is it still okay to use tr, or should I go with tremolo lines? Either way no one is playing my pieces, but I still like knowing that they could be played

@@yoavshati Here is a reply I wrote to someone else about this: "Timpanists generally consider that trrrr means "unmeasured" ie not a distinct number of notes. When we see slashes then we try to interpret these as 8s, 16s, 32nds etc. However this is a minefield! The Donizetti, Verdi and Dvorak excerpts in the film show that composers used different conventions, and were also inconsistent themselves (particularly the Dvorak example). The italian composers tended to write slashes rather than trrr and often we play unmeasured rolls because the mathematical number of notes is impossible. What is interesting here is that Beethoven is normally extremely precise about his use of these notations. And they all work without exception except for the printed one at the end of this piece. You are right, often we have to use common sense and not be rigid. The point is that with Beethoven, the rhythmic and unmeasured stuff all works, and sounds musical too. Win Win!"

trrrr is better if you want an unmeasured roll, because nobody could then try to play it rhythmically. If you write slashes but want an unmeasured roll, you run the risk that someone plays it measured.

@@adrianbending1 Thanks!

th-cam.com/video/UfAN0U0d9Bk/w-d-xo.html

And you should consider that the earth is not flat. Because this is just hogwash of the same kind.

@@Quotenwagnerianer can you back up your view with some evidence?

@@petertyrrell3391 th-cam.com/video/D9hC-_YIALA/w-d-xo.html Liszt Pupils play Beethoven. I rest my case. Stop listening to Wim and his wholebeat nonsense. The guy is nuts.

@@Quotenwagnerianer @petertyrell3391 please can you not discuss single beat vs whole beat theory on here? There are plenty of other places to do that. This video has nothing to do with that debate. Thank you very much

It was never half tempo. We literally have written evidence that they used metronomes the same way we do.

Wim solved nothing. Wim is the musical equivalent of a flat-earther.

@@Quotenwagnerianer interesting points from you, @scarf550 and @tamirlyn but I don't want this video to involve discussion about single or whole beat. That is a discussion for somewhere else!

Timpanists generally consider that trrrr means "unmeasured" ie not a distinct number of notes. When we see slashes then we try to interpret these as 8s, 16s, 32nds etc. However this is a minefield! The Donizetti, Verdi and Dvorak excerpts in the film show that composers used different conventions, and were also inconsistent themselves (particularly the Dvorak example). The italian composers tended to write slashes rather than trrr and often we play unmeasured rolls because the mathematical number of notes is impossible. What is interesting here is that Beethoven is normally extremely precise about his use of these notations. And they all work without exception except for the printed one at the end of this piece. You are right, often we have to use common sense and not be rigid. The point is that with Beethoven, the rhythmic and unmeasured stuff all works, and sounds musical too. Win Win!

@bigodineo I agree with what you are suggesting. A lot of people have always used common sense and interepreted this simply as a "normal" roll. However there was (and still is!) a sizeable number of players and condcutors who see what is printed and think that they must attempt to play literally what they see. Some of them also think (hope?) that it is a deliberate and flamboyant intentional effect by Beethoven, precisely because the notation is so unusual. But when one looks more widely at Beethoven, everything he writes makes complete sense and is playable, which is why many people thought that this must be mistake, which we now have confirmation of

Everything you see on the part is the hand writing of the copyist Joseph Klumpar. The score is in Beethoven's hand writing

There's an article "Timpani parts from German Baroque Music" from 1999. It was published in 'Early Music' by OUP

That's really nice to hear, I am ao glad you found this useful, thank you! Where is your Youth Orchestra?

Yes! could almost make a piece out of just these snippets...

I dunno, it's fairly avant-garde imo

A composition called Trio by Steen-Andersen is partially built by these snippets! Worth checking out.

Well... there are. Cleveland Orchestra / Dohnanyi. I wouldn't have bothered to make this video if this wasn't an issue! You probably aren't aware of it because it often isn't very clear to hear even if a player makes a huge effort to do something. Any timpanist will tell you that there is still controversy about this bar. There are still many discussions including vigorous debate on Facebook forums and it is being perpetuated and taught to young players in some colleges because of "tradition" and a scepticism of "academics"..... It seems there are still people who do not want to accept the clear conclusions of the Baerenreiter edition, plus musical logic....

th-cam.com/video/IaUhHH__pB8/w-d-xo.html

There it is. And it isn't very audible, except the bang on the end....

And this one. Chamber Orchestra of Europe with Harnoncourt. open.spotify.com/album/7rlxqGPPD528fqY8YC9ivh

@@adrianbending1 I have this recording and never noticed it. I don't subscribe to Spotify but I assume it is the same recording as the Teldec one with quite brisk tempi and a mixture of historical and modern instruments.

Thanks so much David for your kind words! What is amazing about this is that the new Baerenreiter edition has been out for over 20 years, but orchestras did not buy this new edition and there were no new teaching books. And so although it was well known, the actual players and many conductors had no idea, and continued to argue about it!

Saint-Saens Phaeton, Cello Concerto, Danse Macabre and Organ Symphony

HI. They are flannell sticks. These are made up of circles of fabric which are held on with a screw thread. The shafts are cane. Although these are modern sticks, we think that similar sounding sticks would have been used back in the day, even if they were of a different construction ie wooden shafts. This was just for a demo video. We also used wooden shaft sticks with various heads (hard felt and flannell) for the concert. Thanks for the question!