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Gregg Messenger - VE6WO
เข้าร่วมเมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2013
Things of interest to an amateur radio hobbyist. VE6WO (VE6WGM)
nanoVNA - Experimenting with a LoG Loop on Ground Antenna & X-Phase QRM Eliminator
0:39 Laying out the loop on the ground antenna.
1:30 Measuring the loop’s impedance.
2:18 Doing some math.. selecting an impedance transformation ratio to match the antenna to 50 ohm coax.
3:06 Building the transformer.
4:47 An amazingly funny Ham Radio joke! Lol!
8:32 Measuring the transformer using the nanoVNA.
10:24 The final transformer build, including enclosure.
11:08 Trying out the LoG antenna under heavy local noise conditions. (Powerline arcing).
11:38 Trying out the LoG antenna under good conditions, and comparing receive to the dipole.
12:02 Another comparison between the dipole and the LoG under moderate local noise level conditions.
12:24 Conclusions based on my observations and introduction to the X-Phase QRM Eliminator…
13:07 Using the LoG antenna to phase against the dipole to cancel out a local noise source.
14:22 Final words.
References:
www.kk5jy.net/LoG/
th-cam.com/video/wMb8i5QajW0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CQK12pIaSocMTVlC
th-cam.com/video/I0m4uronvh8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=lpllV1Wsh_6X8xBH
1:30 Measuring the loop’s impedance.
2:18 Doing some math.. selecting an impedance transformation ratio to match the antenna to 50 ohm coax.
3:06 Building the transformer.
4:47 An amazingly funny Ham Radio joke! Lol!
8:32 Measuring the transformer using the nanoVNA.
10:24 The final transformer build, including enclosure.
11:08 Trying out the LoG antenna under heavy local noise conditions. (Powerline arcing).
11:38 Trying out the LoG antenna under good conditions, and comparing receive to the dipole.
12:02 Another comparison between the dipole and the LoG under moderate local noise level conditions.
12:24 Conclusions based on my observations and introduction to the X-Phase QRM Eliminator…
13:07 Using the LoG antenna to phase against the dipole to cancel out a local noise source.
14:22 Final words.
References:
www.kk5jy.net/LoG/
th-cam.com/video/wMb8i5QajW0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=CQK12pIaSocMTVlC
th-cam.com/video/I0m4uronvh8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=lpllV1Wsh_6X8xBH
มุมมอง: 2 905
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nanoVNA - Measuring Antenna & Coax Characteristics (Revised Feb 16, 2024)
มุมมอง 8K6 หลายเดือนก่อน
When building an amateur radio station, it’s good to have the skills and abilities to test your coax and antenna to determine whether they are functioning as expected... In this video, while working on station repairs, I calibrate the nanoVNA to examine my 80 meter NVIS dipole antenna at it's feedpoint while mounted at 35'. Some unexpected discoveries are made! Subjects: Using the nanoVNA to me...
MLA-30+ Mag Loop Antenna - Redeemed?
มุมมอง 7Kปีที่แล้ว
With an S-9 receive noise floor on the full length dipole antenna, is the mag loop antenna able to redeem itself? April 2024 Notes - Is this a “mag loop” antenna? In response to a couple of viewers who stated, “This is not a mag loop antenna”… I did some research on this… it would seem you are correct, but… Hahaha! As always, with so many things, “it depends” comes into play. On page 9.13 of th...
MLA-30+ Experimenting with a loop receiving antenna.
มุมมอง 5Kปีที่แล้ว
I purchased this loop receiving antenna off of AliExpress with the hopes of using its directional properties to minimize local QRM and to maximize signal to noise ratio. In this video, I compare the receiving capabilities of the MLA-30 antenna to my full length 40/80m inverted vee dipole. Antenna was purchased here: a.aliexpress.com/_ms5hSJi April 2024 - Is this a “mag loop” antenna? In respons...
nanoVNA - What does a 1:1 current balun do? (TEM - Transverse Electromagnetic Wave theory) - Ver. 3
มุมมอง 2.2Kปีที่แล้ว
What does a common mode choke or 1:1 current balun do? Note - September 2023 Even though this is my third attempt at presenting this material, I still feel there are things to improve.. for instance, the ends of a dipole antenna don’t go to ground. They are the point at which maximum voltage exists.. but I wasn’t sure how to depict the antenna and the resistor circuit I drew in such a way that ...
nanoVNA - Balun vs No Balun... any difference? Does the nanoVNA produce interference?
มุมมอง 3.4Kปีที่แล้ว
Continuing on the last video posted... Is there any noticeable difference in the measurements using the nanoVNA when the balun on my 80m dipole is bypassed? Discovery of potential interference being radiated on the 80m band from the nanoVNA while measuring antennas! 0:55 - nanoVNA saver software - using the software to sweep an antenna. 2:20 - Some troubleshooting is required. Haha! 3:14 - Find...
nanoVNA - Alligator Clip Leads vs. VNA Test Fixture Kit - Measuring Inductors & Capacitors
มุมมอง 10K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Does using a more formal test fixture with the nanoVNA result in better measurements when testing inductors and capacitors to confirm their nominal values? Test Board Kit - a.aliexpress.com/_mr2a0U6 0:00 Introduction 3:58 Full calibration of the nanoVNA 6:13 Hooking up the test fixture 6:37 Measuring the inductor value 8:40 Why measure at and - 90 degrees on the smith chart? 10:40 Measuring the...
nanoVNA - Is the S11 phase the same as the voltage vs current phase in a reactive circuit? (Vers.2)
มุมมอง 2.5K2 ปีที่แล้ว
Is the phase angle displayed on the nanoVNA a measurement of the phase relationship between voltage and current in the DUT? It is easy to come to the conclusion that the S11 phase angle as seen on the nanoVNA is the relationship in a device under test between the voltage and current in that device, and I once fell down that hole myself. Haha! After finding that the S11 phase readings on the nan...
nanoVNA - Measuring Inductors and Capacitors (Vers. 3)
มุมมอง 63K3 ปีที่แล้ว
This method is not for higher frequency characterization of components. It simply allows a person to determine the basic low frequency values of inductors and capacitors to identify or confirm their values. 0:15 - explanation of the test setup reference: www.electronics-notes.com/articles/test-methods/rf-vector-network-analyzer-vna/what-is-a-vna.php 2:30 - calibrating the nanoVNA 3:23 - looking...
nanoVNA - Determining the Resonant Frequency of Crystals - VE6WGM
มุมมอง 31K4 ปีที่แล้ว
Using the nanoVNA to measure the resonant frequency of crystals. Basic crystal theory covered.
nanoVNA - Coaxial Cable Characteristic Impedance Measurement Methods - Testing 75 Ohm Coax - VE6WGM
มุมมอง 11K4 ปีที่แล้ว
1. Testing the methods described in the previous video to measure coax cable characteristic impedance using the nanoVNA... this time on 75 ohm coax cable. 2. How to measure coax cable length and impedance using time domain reflectometry. (Begins at 4:56) Reference: Reflections of signals on conducting lines & phase change: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_phase_change Mistake: At 0:28 in this...
nanoVNA - Coaxial Cable Measurement Methods (Characteristic Impedance and Cable Loss) - VE6WGM
มุมมอง 55K4 ปีที่แล้ว
1. Calibrating the nanoVNA 2. The Smith Chart - Briefly (Begins at 8:24) 3. Measuring the characteristic impedance of coax cable. (Begins at 11:46) 4. Measuring coax cable loss. (Begins at 22:34) *Correction 1: At 23:34 I stated that the nanoVNA has a directional coupler. I have since discovered that this is not accurate information. The nanoVNA actually uses a bridge to make it's measurements....
nanoVNA - Testing the Common Mode Attenuation of a DG0SA 1:1 Current Balun by VE6WGM
มุมมอง 14K4 ปีที่แล้ว
This balun was built for use in an 80 meter dipole antenna. I wanted to ensure that it is actually behaving as a balun transformer.. matching the balanced load of the dipole to the unbalanced coax feedline. A true balanced system naturally has an excellent CMRR. In this case, if the balun is doing it’s job, most of the energy being supplied by the radio and feedline will stay on the antenna eve...
GM Delco Stereo Lights Replacement - Soldering Technique for Bulb Removal
มุมมอง 4.6K10 ปีที่แล้ว
How to video on soldering technique for two lead through hole components that need to be replaced on a circuit board. This particular video uses a GM Delco factory stereo with burnt out light bulbs as an example.
Great educational Video: one suggestion when hooking up a longer Coax Cable you might want to prior to connecting the cable, short out the other end. I do not know this specific VNA, I spent Thirty-Eight years in various areas of the test and measurement field with Hewlett-Packard and the T&M offshoots and previous to that Nine years in Standards Labs. I would see various VNAs, TDRs, PNAs come in with from ”not able to pass Calibration” to “InOp” condition which were caused by a charge built on cables and subsequently connected to the ports damaging the front end. In addition, we suggested when customers sat down to the VNA, they always should have Ground Straps on their hands hooked up to System Ground also.
Thank you for this insight.
Are my horde of 100s of 75 year old radio crystals still good if stored properly?
What I think you're seeing: "Every quartz blank has its basic frequency. Besides this “fundamental tone”, each quartz disc has several overtones. When electric voltage is applied to the quartz, it oscillates on its fundamental tone. Its overtones are also triggered in this process, but their signal is significantly weaker than that of the fundamental tone. In fact, most of the time the overtone signal results in nothing more than normal phase noise. "By clever construction of the oscillator circuit, it is possible to actuate the overtone of the quartz instead of the fundamental tone. Therefore, an additional resonant circuit is added to the oscillator circuit in order to amplify the overtone signal of the quartz. "This technique allows engineers to “squeeze” frequencies far above its fundamental tone out of a quartz crystal. For example, if a quartz oscillates in the fundamental tone at 20MHz, the third overtone oscillates at 60MHz and the fifth overtone oscillates at 100MHz. Due to the electronic properties of the oscillator circuit, the overtones can only be stimulated in the odd integer range" .
bravo!!!!
Just got my first nanoVNA and came across your video… great information and easy to follow. Thank you.
By placing a piece of copper wire like a hairpin or some coils between the two ends, it acts as a griddip
I like these types of experiments. This is what drew me to amateur radio back in 1995. Great video.
Are you a electrical engineer? Or what is your title for your career ?
I am an Electronics Engineering Technologist.
To be fair, much of this is over my head, but one thing did stick out to me as I was watching, the change in resonance was ~.02Mhz on the 80m band, correct? So is what amounts to about a 4% change, right in the middle of the band practically significant? Or was this just an academic exercise? (Which is fine BTW) I've got a fan dipole that I've put up, along with a NanoVNA-F V2 and I'm trying to learn the use of the NanoVNA and which characteristics are worth chasing and which I can control (vs which I can not)
Yes, the change in frequency of resonance when I lowered the antenna was about .02 MHz. From a practical point of view, this is of very little significance. Some other factors that most certainly would have been changed when I lowered the antenna are the antenna radiation pattern and antenna efficiency. Unfortunately, these characteristics are not easy to measure. So, I guess what I’m trying to say is that just because an antenna is resonant, this does not mean it is efficient or well suited for the mode of propagation you are wanting to employ. As an example.. using a vertical antenna with a low angle of radiation when you wish to communicate via near vertical incident skywave is counter productive.. you want all your RF energy to go straight up, not down low towards the horizon. So, to help along your likely never ending path of discovery when it comes to antennas, don’t focus on only one thing, like input impedance, or SWR, or making your antenna resonant.. there is a much bigger picture there and if you’re anything like me, the more I learn about things the more I realize that I really have much more to learn! Haha!
great info how ever you need to add common mod balun the noise you getting is from non adding common mod balun I had the same issue however after adding the common mod balun all noise a re gone I hope this will help you vy 73 elan
jaja que los ingenieros no miren el video!!! Importante la calibracion. gracias por tu trabajo.
Don’t worry you’re not the only one. I Cleaned my work table in the garage only to clutter it back up again.
I'm really nervous about Ali Express and counterfeits. I've become more jaundiced against pile-em-high and sell-em cheap merchants. I've seen a lot of really good reviews of the MLA30+ which are on TH-cam I am surprised by the results that you have experienced. I've had massive interference problems at my QTH and ended up as a last-ditch a few years ago going for a Wellbrook loop. Sadly they are no longer in business and the proprietor passed...long story short the design was "copied" by a UK amateur as the "Wellgood" amplifier which may be worth having a look at. I bought one as a backup in case the amp in mine decides to go. The amp is not expensive. I did a short 1:47 video on the differences between a resonant dipole on 60m and my Wellbrook and the differences in s/n are chalk and cheese - I pretty much use my loop all of the time for <10MHz receive with my TS-990 and the FT-2000 that pre-dated it. Not sure if the link will work - th-cam.com/video/ndJbIpBTLl8/w-d-xo.html 73 de Richard M0SNR
Where did you get your "shell" or that green frame for the vna in your video thumbnail?
KC3UDZ makes them! www.qrz.com/db/KC3UDZ
@ve6wo Greetings from Sweden! I appreciate your quick response and also the link. Will check it out now.
I have 20m of RG-213 which sat on the floor of my garage for 20 odd years. It seems to be working normally but I’ve since got some RG-58. I have ordered my nanoVNA and will look forward to check if this cable has any loss. At the moment it seems neglible.
Thanks a lot for your share !
Please abandon VSWR and use return loss (in dB). You get so much more information, particularly when you have a good match. And do remember that you are measuringa combination of radiation resistance and loss resistance. You don't want to end up matching into a loss resistance.
👍👍👍👍😊😊😊😊
You need to know the impedance at the antenna. To do this, the reference plane must be at the antenna feed and not in the shack.
But he shifted the reference plane to the part of coax, where antenna is connected -e.g. beginning . This should allow the same measurement as it would be directly connected to the antenna.
Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. May I know how to get same cable that you used? From wich srore
I ordered mine off Amazon. Simple :-)
Xtra nice video! ~ Very educational! ~ Thank You!
That was very good. You've inspired me to make some coax measurements with my NanoVNA.
I’m confused, why are you looking at matching the coax 50 ohm *impedance* with just the resistive part of the impedance of the LoG antenna? I’m wondering why you didn’t add that to your callcs for the antenna impedance. Or was it a small enough capacitance that it didn’t matter?
Peter Gore Seer, I Have AMLA-30, On A Trio,R-2000, Its North To South, With The Magnetic Poles, Its Working Good And My RF Switch Works At Its Best With Antenna.
When the loop is horizontal, it becomes an omni-antenna with little Near vertical incidence skywave.
Thanks a lot for detailed description! 73!
To 43:00 - 0.77 dB loss is fine because each connector adds 0.1 dB roughly. So, you may have 0.2 dB loss in connectors and 0.57 dB loss in a cable. Which is very close to 0.6 dB/100 ft.
Thank you for explanation. I just want to add than a point with +180 phase degree or -180 phase degree in not a resonance. It's just a point where phase goes more then 180 degree and nothing more. A device is made to show phase degrees whithin a range -179.99 to +179.99.
Twaskyou sr very interesting. Blessings
Calibration, with same connected cable, isn't how is supposed to be. All this connected adapters, cables - must be removed before calibration. After, you need to set electrical delay (port extension), to each of those connected adapters/cables
Good video. What you did is not really different from what I have seen on other videos. So, I think you are safe providing good information.
4:41 Hi, great job! I saw You turning the SMA connector into the SMA nut, You should always turn the nut and not the adapter. if You turning the Adapter, it is rotating in the connector, this will damage it over Time. 73 de DL1LEP
You are correct. Since this video was made I have started to support the coax with one hand to allow the nut to rotate while preventing the center pin from rotating.
Thank you very much for this very informative video Gregg. Have a nice Easter weekend, PA0CMU
Thank you. I’m glad the video was helpful :-)
You can also use a spectrum analyzer and tracking generator
Great video!
Great information! You andwered my questions in the first 3 minuits. Thx. W6rch
Seems like the test fixture should be used in the calibration of the VNA.
The phase going from -180 to +180 doesn't mean anything - the phase is linear (has a linear slope to it), it's just if you keep plotting it without resetting it at some point, you end up with phase angles above 360* which ceases to mean anything, or is hard to work with. So the rule of thumb is you graph phase from -180* to +180*, and if it goes below -180 or above +180, you wrap over to the other side. Also, the phase being positive or negative has nothing to do with it being capacitive or inductive - it's not on the same scale as a smith chart. The phase plot has absolutely nothing to do with capactiance or inductance, only delay.
I have to disagree, somewhat. Although the phase rotating from -180 to +180 doesn’t really have any particular significance as far as I know, as you pointed out… the phase angle (as displayed on the VNA and on the smith chart) is most certainly related to the resistance and reactance in the device under test, which could present as capacitive or inductive depending on what the stimulus frequency is. Although the phase angle on a smith chart is generally explained to represent the distance in wavelengths along the transmission line, when you look a little deeper, you’ll find that this phase angle is actually the phase of the reflection coefficient, as measured at the point where the VNA was calibrated.. the calibration plane. Negative phase values represent capacitive reactance as seen at the calibration plane, positive values represent inductive reactance as seen at the calibration plane. Please watch this video where I explain the mathematical relationship… th-cam.com/video/-gGJHhJ2lUs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=MkYxI0Tc5-SnjL4i
@@ve6wo Still my overall point is if you look at your phase diagram, and simply remove the jumps from -180 to +180 (which is only a notational convention to keep the scale of the phase graph contained), you would have a straight line continuing infinitely with the same slope. A "linear phase" shift shows you that basically nothing odd is going on with the DUT (the cable in this case) - it's just getting electrically longer in terms of wavelengths, as the frequency increases, which makes perfect sense as the wavelength decreases as the frequency goes up, so the cable looks longer when measured in # of wavelengths. Also, a smith chart doesn't display phase information - it only displays complex impedance at a given frequency. Maybe there's a mathematical relationship there between complex impedance and phase (or the derivative of complex impedance and phase maybe), but I haven't thought through that. I will watch your other video, but I'm skeptical...
@@gorak9000 That’s fair :-) Let me know what you think after you watch the other video.
Good video, Gregg. My video on the LoG was among the first on You Tube and I have been using it for several years with very good success. That said, it was NOT a success at my late father's QTH, as a pesky noise source rendered the LoG ineffective. Your video echoes his experience with this design. The LoG is certainly an antenna worth trying, but as in life, there are no guarantees. Thank you for posting this (to give the other side of the coin) and 73! de WX0V
Thank you for taking the time to leave this comment. I appreciate it.
Hi Gregg, a suggestion... Instead of metal nails into frozen ground (i.e. highly conductive!), Try using plastic stakes. You may need to drill a few holes into the frozen ground, but I think you may find the nails are inducing the ground noise. I can't really duplicate your issue here in the desert - haha...😆 73
It’s worth a shot!
Any updates on the noise source and/or elimination?
Gregg ... Nice video coverage and method reviewing your results Sir! I too tried this same type of loop at my location and came to the same conclusion as you. I do have a noise canceller that I think I might give a spin in the future. Thanks again! 73 - KF6IF
That’s neat to hear! I thought I was special… hahaha! The only one who has a loop on the ground noise magnet, when everyone else who tries it has amazing low noise receive… 😂
Curious to see if the loop on the ground would be more effective if you were comparing it to a vertical antenna. Thank you for the video.
Are you mastering your videos in HDR?
I’m not that technical with the videos. They are shot using my iPhone 13 Pro, edited on the phone using iMovie, and then uploaded to TH-cam.
i put it 2 meters up and defased it with a rod antenne on a corner , -135 dBm noise floor , at night 80 m perfect , daytime 20 , 40 meter ok.
I like any program that take up the issue of Nano vna😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
At least lowering the antenna shifts the resonance down, which makes sense.
Your metallic mast may be interfering with your setup. Generally, a dipole is mounted with non-metallic (dacron etc.) lines or a fiberglass pole.
Yes, the metal pole will likely have some effect. Also the metal roofing on my garage, and a host of other things unique to my location, all of these things will change how the antenna behaves. For most of us, we cannot control these environmental factors so we should be able to measure and tune and impedance match for each specific location.
If you change the stimulus , you should recalibrate ... every time.
True that.
I have done this experiment.. at these low frequencies I observed no benefit. The readings were the same. If a person goes outside of the range of frequencies that were used to calibrate the nanoVNA, then yes, I will re-calibrate.
Just buy a circular polarisation filter for the camera, takes the glare out of anything. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_%28photography%29
I shoot these videos with an iPhone. I’ll have to see if someone has built a polarization filter for it.
I got a tiny one for my dashcam to reduce the reflection in the windscreen.
Very interesting indeed😊