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Yes, there can be epigenetic changes from being on drugs for years, however the human body has a miraculous way of healing itself. A heroin addict can use multiple times daily for decades and still come off the drug (often cold-turkey). In regards to antidepressants, a whopping 50% of people who go cold-turkey will experience exactly the same withdrawal intensity as people who taper off the drugs in the span of about a month.

It’s been longer then a month it’s been like 4 months imma be ok right

@@amberfrazier9516 I'm not a doctor and don't know the specifics of your situation, so I can't say. But, the thing I've learned with tapering psychiatric medications is to go at a pace that your body is comfortable with.

Hi, thanks for sharing. Yes the origin of the information here was developed for chronic pain (I experienced this as well) but it's now been successfully applied to many types of mysterious syndromes that just seem to go and on without any medical explanation.

Hi, sorry about that. Was it the Substack link? There was a period at the end of the link that might have been messing it up. I just removed it so I think it will work now. From when I first started using this approach to when the sensations basically resolved was a period of five months. I don't know if any sensations got better in the first month or two but after that I started to see improvement. It's different for everyone but that's what happened with me.

Thanks, glad to hear that it sounds like you're making progress with this approach!

I think the forums are horrible. What is it that one well known coach always says? “The forums are killing more people than they are saving”.

@@Mary-bq2qj i honestly don't think so. But if living in denial and not wanting to move the needle forward overall works for some, sure. The forums are what is driving this matter forward. The sheer amount.

Hi, saw your email.

Hi thanks for your comment. Yes, I also got angry when I first heard about Sarno and basically stayed that way for five years so you certainly move a lot faster than me! I think the sensations are most definitely real, the difference is that in this approach the sensations are not coming from brain damage but are learned due to a stress response. It's not so much about having to do things but understanding why it's happening is the key. Sarno’s books have the essentials on this. Yes, it's great to get back to enjoying life!

Hi, that’s interesting I didn’t know Ashton said that. The forums wrap people in so many layers of fear that people are scared of absolutely everything. I was the same way. In terms of the resolution of my sensations, yes, I had both pain and withdrawal sensations for years but they resolved in a matter of months through focused directed effort as opposed to the natural passage of time. I think this is backed up by the studies I reference on chronic pain where most people resolve the sensations in less than a year. Some will take longer than that, Steve Ozanich is a notable here, but it seems most don’t. That’s not to say that passage of time has not led to resolution for others but I think it has a lot to do with what people do with that time, and I think what they do with that time can be very revealing.

@@gustavtms Yes it is in the Food, Diet and Exercise section of the Ashton manual. She even warns against fad diets or unnecessary restrictions which can make people feel worse as they worry about everything. And yet the forums are promoting so much nonsense and even saying things like Ashton needs to be updated as "we" know so much more now, ha ha. Agree it is about how we spend our time during the process of recovery. A lot of it is about unlearning things, so Schubiner's book title is spot on

Hi, yes, I used to feel the same thing and it bothered me a lot. I came to see it as my mind interpreting the world as dangerous and therefore my mind trying to protect me by distancing me from it. The dissociation was like a protective barrier in a way. I also couldn’t get hurt as badly if I couldn’t really make or at least feel connections very well. It’s also possible the mind might not feel safe about something upsetting us inside and so we can be distanced from that too. At least that’s the way it was for me. Basically I think it was a response to my challenging life experiences. To help resolve this I had to re-teach my mind that I’m safe in the world, telling my mind it’s safe to experience it, and the emotions that it entails. But not just that I also had to actually experience the world again by trying to put myself in immersive, challenging, or positive experiences to reinforce to myself that I’m safe. If I felt the dissociation I would just note it and remind my mind that it’s safe and that whatever I’m doing at the moment is okay and it’s safe to experience the world and connect with people. Just like other forms of TMS, I think this kind of psychological experience arises from a danger signal in the mind so it’s the same basic approach that can be oriented in that particular direction. It’s not uncommon in TMS literature to talk about psychological states as well. I basically just went in that direction and stopped researching dissociation and immersed myself in TMS materials. If the topic of them is primarily pain I think substituting pain for "derealization" leads to similar insights.

Yes I agree that's a great idea. I think that will eventually happen but it takes people willing to share their stories publicly.

Hi, sure. My email is gustavtms@gmail.com.

Gustav- May I ask what kind of psychiatric drug did you taper off using TMS practices? I’ve been tapering off 2 Benzos for 7 years. I have 1.4 mg V left and I just can’t go lower due to terrifying and debilitating withdrawal symptoms. Can this be TMS? I have gotten rid of extreme back pain using TMS years ago. And I’ve been wondering if PaWS was TMS. But what about still tapering? Could that be TMS. Or is it PTSD/Trauma?? Thank you.

Hi, I tapered from three drugs: pregabalin, lithium, and mirtazapine. By the time I got into Sarno I was only tapering lithium and mirtazapine. I made a post/video about tapering. Have you seen this: unlearnwithdrawal.substack.com/p/a-mindbody-approach-to-tapering-psychiatric In my experience I thought the withdrawal sensations were coming from tapering but they were not. It was TMS. For people for whom TMS resonates I think it can explain people's experiences with trauma in a non-pathologizing way (unlike "PTSD").

Hi, I didn't have morning terror but I had a bunch of very weird and disconcerting sleep problems, among the other things I dealt with, and those resolved with a TMS approach. With TMS it's quite common to develop conditioned responses; that is certain sensations can get associated/triggered by certain things, times, places, stress. For quite a while I used to get panic every day at exactly 5pm. A TMS approach is about breaking that conditioning. I think sometimes on withdrawal forums they come up with terminology that can reinforce the idea that a certain set of sensations/experiences are always a withdrawal phenomenon. But this is not always the case. I don't really know anything about your situation but if the ideas of TMS and Sarno or Howard Schubiner or the many other people in this space, if they resonate with you, then yes you may wish to pursue this approach.

Thanks, appreciate it!

Hi. Which timeframe? Do you mean how long protracted withdrawal might take to resolve on its own without any intervention?

@@gustavtms Perhaps we should define protracted withdrawal. I understand it to mean we still haven't recovered at around 18 months and are likely to take two years. Others define it as having severe symptoms beyond the acute stage of a few months. Which definition are you using?

I would suspect that protracted withdrawal might be defined similarly to other types of injuries: it’s when “symptoms” continue beyond the expected time of recovery. Acute withdrawal, if I recall correctly, is generally defined between 4-8 weeks. However that’s not to say that everyone fits into this category. For some people acute withdrawal could very well last longer than that, maybe several months, maybe even six months, I don't know. Personally if I were looking into this, I don’t know how far beyond that I would go before I started looking into alternative perspectives like TMS because it would rule out a potential opportunity to resolve it. I know it’s common in withdrawal communities to emphasize very long recoveries because this is what they see (withdrawal forums are filled with people who’ve had it the worst). But the people within these forums have rarely tried mindbody approaches like TMS (they can even be discouraged to do so) so the idea that protracted withdrawal syndrome starts at such a date or probably ends at such a date I think is based on incomplete information. I doubt there’d ever be a TMS study on protracted withdrawal like’s been done on chronic pain and Long Covid, but this has transformed the way these situations are understood as new information has come to light. Ultimately though I would most emphasize that it is really up to each person to define their own situation for themselves and it’s not important what I think. Generally for people who arrive at the concept of TMS, they’re at their wit's end and might be beginning to suspect that, on some level, their ongoing pain or tiredness or protracted withdrawal sensations or whatever they’re going through, doesn't make sense to them anymore as unique syndromes. So they seek an alternative explanation and TMS or a similar learned neuroplastic concept resonates with them and then they may pursue it.

@@gustavtms Thanks for your interpretation. I thought about grief and the mourning process and how they say it takes about 2 years on average to reach acceptance and start feeling a bit better about things. And grief is a very physical feeling. I don't think it is something we can rush either as we each find our way through the maze. I wonder if a similar thing is happening after cessation of these pills. We've got used to taking them to calm ourselves down or ease our pain, releasing muscle tension, and now we have to find other ways to deal with life and everything it throws at us. Bit of a shock to the system and everyone is so different so we each take the time we need. However I don't want to let Pharma off the hook too easily as this unnatural chemical alteration is clearly harmful as it doesn't allow us to process anything the way we need to, really messes with our heads! Anyway, thanks for your reply

@@gustavtms My reply to you seems to have vanished so not sure you have seen it your end? And BTW this video does not appear on my subscribers list even though I am subscribed. I only saw it as a recommendation! Weird

Most people will reject Sarno's work, especially at first. I did too. Everyone's different but this is the video that changed my mind: th-cam.com/video/0VyH1laOd2M/w-d-xo.html

I haven't. I had that book or another Dispenza book on hold at the library once but forgot to pick it up. I'm not that familiar with him.

In my experience of doing mind-body work it won’t heal akathisia. The only thing that helps akathisia for me in earthing/grounding.

Hi, I see someone commented that grounding helped for them. Someone else actually wrote that question on a different video. This is what I said there: it depends on its cause. I got akathisia multiple times while taking certain neuroleptics/“antipsychotics” and the akathisia only stopped when I stopped taking the drugs. So there’s drug-induced akathisia. Probably not much anyone can do about that other than stopping the drug. Then there is akathisia that can happen upon stopping drugs as a symptom of acute withdrawal. In that circumstance a person probably has to wait for acute withdrawal to resolve for the sensations to go away. Unless of course they don’t go away or akathisia develops later in “post-acute withdrawal” or even possibly while slowly tapering. In those situations, as far as I know, akathisia is not a specific injury but can become a learned mindbody phenomenon over time, just like other protracted withdrawal sensations. The thing is this approach has yet to reach many people with all the different kinds of protracted withdrawal sensations, although I know people who have used this approach for so many different things so I can’t see why it couldn’t work for persistent akathisia. But I don’t have any direct experience. I had restless leg syndrome, which I know is not the same thing, but it went away with all the other protracted sensations that I had. And I’ve specifically heard of people who experience akathisia for whom the sensations greatly reduce from social connection/feeling safer, which seems to imply that a danger signal is involved and that it's a manifestation of TMS. Here is podcast episode of Tell Me About Your Pain that might be interesting to you: podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/how-can-i-diagnose-my-pain-like-a-pain-specialist/id1503847664?i=1000503735611 Do what you wish of course and I know nothing really of your experience but this approach has helped many, many people with all sorts of extremely challenging stuff.

Thanks, you're very kind.

Hi, It depends on its cause. I got akathisia multiple times while taking certain neuroleptics/“antipsychotics” and the akathisia only stopped when I stopped taking the drugs. So there’s drug-induced akathisia. Probably not much anyone can do about that other than stopping the drug. Then there is akathisia that can happen upon stopping drugs as a symptom of acute withdrawal. In that circumstance a person probably has to wait for acute withdrawal to resolve for the sensations to go away. Unless of course they don’t go away or akathisia develops later in “post-acute withdrawal” or even possibly while slowly tapering. In those situations, as far as I know, akathisia is not a specific injury but can become a learned mindbody phenomenon over time, just like other protracted withdrawal sensations. The thing is this approach has yet to reach many people with all the different kinds of protracted withdrawal sensations, although I know people who have used this approach for so many different things so I can’t see why it couldn’t work for persistent akathisia. But I don’t have any direct experience. I had restless leg syndrome, which I know is not the same thing, but it went away with all the other protracted sensations that I had. And I’ve specifically heard of people who experience akathisia for whom the sensations greatly reduce from social connection/feeling safer, which seems to imply that a danger signal is involved and that it's a manifestation of TMS. Here is podcast episode of Tell Me About Your Pain that might be interesting to you: podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/how-can-i-diagnose-my-pain-like-a-pain-specialist/id1503847664?i=1000503735611 Do what you wish of course and I know nothing really of your experience but this approach has helped many, many people with all sorts of extremely challenging stuff.

@@gustavtms Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Do you have any capacity to discuss this further in a consultation (if you offer them) or by email? I got akathisia from an anti-emetic prescribed during other drug withdrawal two years ago. The akathisia continues to come back from small drug changes, it's severe again right now. I watched the podcast, thank you - what I'm struggling with is (probably kind of obvious) that there is no question to solve as to whether this is coming from the body or the brain, we know in our case it's the brain. So then by nature do the rule-in questions (inconsistency for example) apply in trying to answer the question of if this is a "direct chemical issue" vs a "learned phenomenon"? Is it possible to really know when it's the brain we are dealing with in both instances? Hope that makes sense.

Hi, Sorry to hear that. Yes I get what you’re saying-that makes sense. When still taking a drug or tapering off (if that’s what you mean by small drug changes) there can be difficulty in determining what the actual cause of the experience is. I wondered that for myself as well. And as you point out the question in this situation is whether it’s a “direct chemical issue” from the drug/withdrawal or neuroplastic learning. There are times, as Alan Gordon points out in the documentary Brain Pain, you might not be able to tell for certain whether it’s TMS or something else until a person engages in the approach and sees what happens. If you wanted to you could try to consult with a TMS professional who might be able to provide some guidance. I don’t do consultations like that but you could write me an email if you’d like, gustavtms@gmail.com.

Thanks man. In terms of specific iatrogenic injuries, it’s nothing that we’ve previously talked about. I’m just briefly acknowledging that psychiatric drugs can also cause structural health problems. For instance, I took lithium for years and if I still took lithium then I’d probably eventually get kidney damage or even worse - these are injuries that aren’t going to be resolved by a mindbody approach. Stuff like that, structural injuries as opposed to neuroplastic learning, which I suspect is “protracted withdrawal.” Perhaps I should be more clear on that otherwise it just leads to confusion as people (rightly) start wondering what I’m talking about and start to wonder if they’re the exception, which is what most people already think anyway as I once did as well. I also just want to be respectful to people who may frame their experience like that I guess.

@@gustavtms That makes complete sense. I think all in all you’ve done a great job with the information - that study was extremely illuminating. Many may certainly think they’re the exception, since I can certainly relate in such situations too, so just continuing to get the information out is huge. I’ve definitely archived this material in my “TMS Brainwashing” files. I gotta say, in the last month or so, I’ve absolutely seen a gradual reduction in some symptoms I’ve been experiencing for the last year straight until learning about this stuff. So for all the doubters, I increasingly believe that this IS the way out.

Thanks for sharing that! I'm happy to hear you've seen progress and it will be encouraging for people to read.

Hi, Next week I’m releasing a video on journaling which is part of what I did and the following week I’m putting out a more general video on practical practices because your question is a very common one and the same one I had and basically everyone has when getting into these approaches. And the question is even more specific for protracted withdrawal. I can give some information here though. Once I watched some Howard Schubiner videos and realized this TMS thing was a real possibility for myself, I ordered a Sarno book and took Schubiner’s course. I don’t think the old course exists anymore (the one that replaced it is way more expensive) but the course is also basically laid out in his book Unlearn Your Pain. It’s basically a 28-day guide. What I got the most out of it was (1) deepened understanding about TMS and (2) structured writing exercises that helped me make a deeper mindbody connection for myself. It also just gave me a bit of daily structure for the duration of the program. While I was doing this and after I finished this program, I listened and re-listened to Sarno’s books. He has specific chapters on the “treatment of TMS” and the “psychology of TMS.” He suggests that people listen to one or the other every day. I would also walk around listening to a TMS podcast or two every day and various success stories for all things TMS. Basically I inundated myself with TMS knowledge and whenever sensations would get worse I would remind myself about TMS (Sarno has 12 daily reminders that can be adapted for withdrawal). Repetition is a big part of the process. I then used this knowledge to actually get out into the world again and as I did that the sensations started to go away. It took maybe a few months to gain this courage. It wasn’t just having an intellectual understanding of it all, or an emotional understanding, I had prove it to myself by returning to my life, all the stuff I was avoiding. Hopefully that helps somewhat. People usually make up their own sort of practices a bit and I had to be flexible to find out what worked best for me. Hopefully in the next few weeks I’ll think of more details and practical stuff that provides a better rough outline than this.

@@gustavtms wow, thank you for this detailed response, Gustav. I just started listening to Nichol Sachs and am in the education phase of retaining all of the information on the topic that I can. Do you think cognitive and psychological symptoms (i.e. memory and processing speeds deficits and “chemical” depression and anxiety) are TMS and can be resolved with a respective program?

Yes, people have used a TMS approach to resolve Long COVID and chronic fatigue where presumably memory and cognitive problems were some of the more challenging “symptoms” that were resolved. There are even a bunch of success stories on TH-cam about this. Sarno called “anxiety” and “depression” psychological forms of TMS and, again, people have used these approaches successfully in this regard. “Chemical anxiety/depression” is a term I think I’ve seen used in withdrawal groups and in the situation of acute withdrawal it makes sense but as these sensations go and on, well, I can’t speak for anyone’s experience but my own, but at some point it seems more like a learned phenomenon/TMS to me. Programs can be very useful, but they're not necessary for everyone. Either way it's we who heal ourselves.

@@gustavtms thanks for the reply, Gustav.

Yes POTS can be resolved with a TMS approach. If you type in POTS and TMS on TH-cam you get people talking about it and success stories. In particular Dan from the channel Pain Free You talks about this and Rebecca Tolin from her channel as well.

@@gustavtms - thank you! I wish more people thought that protracted withdrawal was TMS. I’ve been searching for other people who believe that it is, and I haven’t found anyone. I have Steve O’s book, but I don’t see anything in it about benzo withdrawal. I think you said he did. Can you tell me what he said about it? . By the way, I did email Dr. Schubiner, as you suggested. Thank you again! I’m going to keep listening to your TH-cam so I can keep hearing you say that protracted withdrawal is TMS. Do you have any other things online about it? 😊

Hi, I know a bunch of people who think protracted withdrawal is TMS. And I’ve communicated with some of them who have resolved protracted withdrawal with this approach. But as you mention, there are few materials out there specifically on protracted withdrawal and TMS together -- almost none -- which makes it difficult for people to find out about. This is probably in part because protracted withdrawal is such a little known thing compared to chronic pain, fibro, chronic fatigue, Long COVID - all household names. Everyone knows about them. Also the whole topic of psychiatric drug withdrawal is taboo anyway, and I think something people are scared to talk about. So this information just hasn’t reached withdrawal communities, among other reasons as well. I spoke to Steve O once years ago. He was the only consult I ever had. He’s actually the first person to suggest to me that protracted withdrawal is TMS and that he’s helped people to resolve it via his consults. I didn’t even know what to make of that. I sort of had an open mind but I don’t think I really believed him. It went against what I'd read about in the withdrawal forums and groups. It wasn’t until I got into the approach and the withdrawal sensations went away that I realized it could be true. I don’t remember if Steve mentions it any of his books. I don’t think he does. Here is an interesting thread from TMSwiki on someone who resolved protracted withdrawal sensations, among other things: www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/i-was-going-to-post-a-success-story-on-an-anti-depressant-withdrawal-forum.20225/

Thanks man, good to hear from you! Yes accepting TMS by coming to that deep understanding is what it’s all about. I remember Ozanich saying when it’s totally accepted that’s when the sensations stop entirely. It does take time to get there but I think you’re on the right track. Just keep at it. That’s what basically everyone says who resolves this stuff, they just kept at it.

@@gustavtms The encouragement means a lot man. Please keep at the material you’re putting out - it’s extremely helpful! I’m going to keep consuming all that I can in regards to TMS…

Yeah I'm actually putting out another video on Monday.

@@gustavtms Can’t wait!

Hi, I think I had been tapering for four or five years before I discovered this TMS approach. Even though I was tapering really slowly I was still dealing with waves and all these weird and scary sensations. But I once I learned more about this approach and worked on it the withdrawal sensations went away. And this happened while I was still tapering. For the remainder of the taper I had no withdrawal sensations and I eventually stopped the drugs without any problem. So, yes, in my experience it’s possible to use this TMS approach while tapering. Basically for me it turned out the “withdrawal” wasn’t coming from the taper, but it was a learned response. At least part of it came from my overwhelming fear of the drugs and tapering. I think this sent a danger signal to my mind and reinforced these sensations that I basically expected to get. But once I got into TMS and I applied this approach and the sensations went away I lost my fear of the drugs completely and I knew I’d be okay. I previously experienced much “health anxiety” in my life as well, as have many people who resonate with the concept of TMS. And, yeah, POTS can be TMS. If you type in POTS and TMS on YoTube I know Dan from Pain Free You and Rebecca Tolin have success stories on their channels about this.

@@gustavtms - Thank you so much! Do you think it’s necessary to have a TMS coach to do this? If so, do you have a list of coaches? And are you a TMS coach? 💗

Hi, from what I can tell most people who resolve the various forms of TMS do not have coaches. But there are of course some people who benefit from that. I had a consult with someone once and it was helpful but not necessary. I also took a TMS course which I found helpful as it gave me some structure, but the course I took I don’t think exists anymore. There are others courses but the prices have really gone up. The course I took though is basically contained in the book Unlearn Your Pain by Howard Schubiner, which was applicable for protracted withdrawal for myself as well. Anyway TMSWiki has a list practitioners here but I can’t attest to their quality of course : www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist. I don’t do any coaching, no. There are a bunch of TMS people with TH-cam channels that do though.

@@gustavtms - Thank you so much for taking time to respond to my questions. I am going to continue learning more about how I can use TMS principles to no longer have protracted withdrawal and POTS. IT seems my limbic system is doubling down on the fear and symptoms since I started trying to go about my life in spite of the symptoms and sensations that I am having. For instance, since I started getting out of my bed in the morning and walking a little bit outsideinstead of staying on my bed all day (since standing and walking around induced extreme breathlessness & feeling dizzy), I have now started to have panic attacks and episodes of freeze, unable to talk or move. It’s very scary. I feel like I’m having a nervous breakdown. 😬

I'm sorry to hear that. I had stuff that like that too and it is very scary. Sarno talks about first gaining more knowledge about TMS and working toward accepting it toward one's situation before moving around more. As he says in Healing Back Pain, "To start prematurely only means that they will probably induce pain, frighten themselves . . ." At the same time Sarno also says it's not uncommon for the mind to fight back when it starts to get challenged. Sarno also talked about how he thought it was more helpful to think psychologically than physically (like the limbic system). I actually just uploaded Sarno's audiobook Healing Back Pain. It might be of interest to you.

Hi, thanks, good to see you again as well! I remember you left a kind message on my other video when it first came out. Yeah, I took in TMS materials daily for several months when I got into this and I feel like I did brainwash myself. I think I brainwashed myself with the truth which is why it worked. The whole approach is basically about understanding anyway. I don’t know if I’d coach or consult like that. I’d have to think about it more. I’ve talked to a few people now but I’ve never charged them. I’m based in Canada by the way.

Hi, good to hear! Yes, I know of practitioners who work with people with neuroplastic pain mention that they use the same mindbody approach for tapering drugs. I would think that it's also their perspective that for most people it's often best to taper slowly to give the nervous system time to adjust and avoid unnecessary suffering.

@@gustavtms And thanks again for taking the time to reply 🤗🥰

Anytime!

@@gustavtms❤

He his just like my grandfather

Me too! I fell asleep so peacefully watching this.

Thanks that's a really interesting way to put it. I've now heard from a bunch of people who came across TMS when trying to figure out withdrawal. It's been a revelation for many of us. Thanks for sharing!

You're very welcome.