The variables that go with the different shapes of a persons or peoples mouth is endless… to find a definitive way to create a brass player’s embouchure, let aalone a beginning hornist’s embouchure, is a pretty big challenge. For me, as a private lessons instructor for brass students, and as a hormist, I always spend as much time as I can or that the student is willing to work with, to be as comfortable as possible with their mouthpiece. I also always bring different mouthpieces to first try out, as one mouthpiece may be good for one person, but not the other. Not to drone on about that, but sometimes, we assume that one piece of equipment is “the one”, that should be the foundation for all beginners… we always want quick results, but aren’t willing to set up fundamentals properly. And the horn is arguably one of the most unforgiving wind instruments to not get a good start on.
I hate to say this but this is way too complicated. In fact it is not a good idea- tugging muscles against each other. Pucker? Nope. Roll in to go higher and out to go lower. It is not brain surgery. In fact it is very subtle.,This solves all the problems brought about by too much tension and pressure.
Wrong. There is no one correct placement that works for everyone. Everyone's teeth size, contours, and jaw structures are different. Mouthpiece placement should be determined according to whatever produces the best sound. Educated teachers are aware of exercises that will quickly help an individual find the placement that gives them the best sound. Only the uninformed teachers will try to shoe-horn everyone into what they've found works for them. That's one of the reasons that good performers rarely make the best teachers.
@@deborahstahl5982 I don't know whether you're being sarcastic or serious. If you are implying that a person has to produce videos, otherwise what they has no credibility, you are sorely mistaken. I don't put out videos with flawed universal ideas about embouchures that put people into a one-size-fits-all category. Each player is an individual and with my students I look at their unique physical characteristics and then I instruct them on the mouthpiece placement and embouchure techniques that work most compatibly with their physical characteristics.
Well, I was being serious. I was hoping that you could expand on your methods for determining how to find the correct embouchure formation for an individual player. The video demonstrator was showing the starting point for a beginning horn player (I believe) and was not intending his video to be a "one size fits all" solution. I reached out to you because I thought you might have some additional helpful information, in any format, that I might find helpful as a non-beginner with some embouchure weaknesses. After re-reading your comment to the video and your reply to me, I'm not sure I am still interested in your response to my initial request. I feel certain from your comment to me that you have nothing in any format that would help me strengthen my embouchure challenges.
@@deborahstahl5982 I have a process of finding the balance point in a player's embouchure and placing the mouthpiece in the position that optimizes that balance point, and the net result is a placement that provides the player with the best sound and most efficient operation of their embouchure, which affords them better range, endurance, and flexibility. I don't publish my process and give away my knowledge for free. It took me many years to acquire this knowledge and develop this process; therefore, I deserve to be compensated for it. This is why I get preturbed by these charlatans who don't know what they're talking about putting out TH-cam videos to make side money. All they're doing is repeating and perpetuating the same fallacies that have plagued the world of brass pedagogy since time immemorial. And today's "do-it-yourself-with-the-internet" society is only too happy to listen to the nonsense being spewed, believe it, and waste their time. If you have problems with your embouchure, break out some money and get yourself a qualified teacher.
Just stumbled on this and had to laugh. I was taught the "smiling" embouchure many years ago. This was back in the day when "brass teachers" were each trying to come up their their own signature method, or were the "champion" of some crackpot method or another. Dennis Brain used one such excruciatingly horrible embouchure. The thing is, a good player can make any embouchure work, no matter how misguided the perceived underlying principles. I switched to low and middle brass to sort out any embouchure "problems" I had back then, and got rid of a number of myths: long tones, lip or mouthpiece buzzing, warmups, and warm-downs, the latter of which was popular back in the 1970's. I don't know if people are still doing that. I learned from research done at the University of Edinburgh that the lips don't buzz while playing, that lip-buzzing is a fiction that exists solely in the mind of the player. Right before playing I do softly blow a note or two, but that's it, and it has served me well for well over 50 years.
Some good points, but I disagree with the point about playing too low. Playing with an upstream embouchure may be the correct way for a student, forcing them to play against their anatomy will only lead to sadness and failure for the student.
I always catch my bottom jaw moving forward and back when I play any sizable embouchure. And my face just moving too much altogether sometimes to the point where it sounds like my notes are being chewed.
I'm an old guy who played the horn more than 50 years ago, and now I am missing my top front teeth, and some lower ones. I tooted my horn yesterday and found it quite difficult to hold my emboucher. Should I just give up?
I know lots of guys with missing teeth, bridges, dentures, you name it. Just keep at it. You'll improve. You should have a look at old photos of Chet Baker's teeth.
Do these instructions pertain at least minimally to woodwinds as well as brass, Mr. Elliot? (I’m asking as a guitar player now attempting to add the soprano saxophone to his pallet of instruments but ever fascinated by the French horn.)
Just like with all brass instruments, some people do better with low mouthpiece placement rather than a high one. Have you ever seen the embouchure of Josh Williams? He was recently named one of the best horn players in the world and his placement is about 1:2, not 2:1. -E
Thank you! My tone and range has always felt worse than everyone else’s in my two years of playing and I never knew I had some of these problems as I’ve never had any one on one instruction. I hope this can help me.
Practice with a mirror and mouth piece visualizer. I used to use the loop on my second valve slide for a mouth piece visualizer because mine was the perfect size.
Xbox_Golden i have a friend who plays like that and she sounds great. So, as long as it’s just your exterior side lip bulging out and it doesn’t tire you, you should be just fine.
Hello David. Thanks for the videos, I've learned quite a bit. I'm having a difficult time finding The Art of Brass Playing by Mr. Farkas. Would his book The Art of French Horn playing be a reasonable substitute? Cheers
８D
The variables that go with the different shapes of a persons or peoples mouth is endless… to find a definitive way to create a brass player’s embouchure, let aalone a beginning hornist’s embouchure, is a pretty big challenge. For me, as a private lessons instructor for brass students, and as a hormist, I always spend as much time as I can or that the student is willing to work with, to be as comfortable as possible with their mouthpiece. I also always bring different mouthpieces to first try out, as one mouthpiece may be good for one person, but not the other. Not to drone on about that, but sometimes, we assume that one piece of equipment is “the one”, that should be the foundation for all beginners… we always want quick results, but aren’t willing to set up fundamentals properly. And the horn is arguably one of the most unforgiving wind instruments to not get a good start on.
thanks for the tips, I'm working on a symphony that requires up to a high B and am struggling a lot!
I dont understand what the valley in your chin means
If the lower teeth fit under the upper teeth, that’s an overbite. Just a minor criticism!! Great video..useful information
How many moose gathered at your window upon completion of this video, Dave?
I hate to say this but this is way too complicated. In fact it is not a good idea- tugging muscles against each other. Pucker? Nope. Roll in to go higher and out to go lower. It is not brain surgery. In fact it is very subtle.,This solves all the problems brought about by too much tension and pressure.
Wrong. There is no one correct placement that works for everyone. Everyone's teeth size, contours, and jaw structures are different. Mouthpiece placement should be determined according to whatever produces the best sound. Educated teachers are aware of exercises that will quickly help an individual find the placement that gives them the best sound. Only the uninformed teachers will try to shoe-horn everyone into what they've found works for them. That's one of the reasons that good performers rarely make the best teachers.
Where can I find your video on mouthpiece placement, embouchure formation, etc.?
@@deborahstahl5982 I don't know whether you're being sarcastic or serious. If you are implying that a person has to produce videos, otherwise what they has no credibility, you are sorely mistaken. I don't put out videos with flawed universal ideas about embouchures that put people into a one-size-fits-all category. Each player is an individual and with my students I look at their unique physical characteristics and then I instruct them on the mouthpiece placement and embouchure techniques that work most compatibly with their physical characteristics.
Well, I was being serious. I was hoping that you could expand on your methods for determining how to find the correct embouchure formation for an individual player. The video demonstrator was showing the starting point for a beginning horn player (I believe) and was not intending his video to be a "one size fits all" solution. I reached out to you because I thought you might have some additional helpful information, in any format, that I might find helpful as a non-beginner with some embouchure weaknesses. After re-reading your comment to the video and your reply to me, I'm not sure I am still interested in your response to my initial request. I feel certain from your comment to me that you have nothing in any format that would help me strengthen my embouchure challenges.
@@deborahstahl5982 I have a process of finding the balance point in a player's embouchure and placing the mouthpiece in the position that optimizes that balance point, and the net result is a placement that provides the player with the best sound and most efficient operation of their embouchure, which affords them better range, endurance, and flexibility. I don't publish my process and give away my knowledge for free. It took me many years to acquire this knowledge and develop this process; therefore, I deserve to be compensated for it. This is why I get preturbed by these charlatans who don't know what they're talking about putting out TH-cam videos to make side money. All they're doing is repeating and perpetuating the same fallacies that have plagued the world of brass pedagogy since time immemorial. And today's "do-it-yourself-with-the-internet" society is only too happy to listen to the nonsense being spewed, believe it, and waste their time. If you have problems with your embouchure, break out some money and get yourself a qualified teacher.
Nice demo David!!
Just stumbled on this and had to laugh. I was taught the "smiling" embouchure many years ago. This was back in the day when "brass teachers" were each trying to come up their their own signature method, or were the "champion" of some crackpot method or another. Dennis Brain used one such excruciatingly horrible embouchure. The thing is, a good player can make any embouchure work, no matter how misguided the perceived underlying principles. I switched to low and middle brass to sort out any embouchure "problems" I had back then, and got rid of a number of myths: long tones, lip or mouthpiece buzzing, warmups, and warm-downs, the latter of which was popular back in the 1970's. I don't know if people are still doing that. I learned from research done at the University of Edinburgh that the lips don't buzz while playing, that lip-buzzing is a fiction that exists solely in the mind of the player. Right before playing I do softly blow a note or two, but that's it, and it has served me well for well over 50 years.
Some good points, but I disagree with the point about playing too low. Playing with an upstream embouchure may be the correct way for a student, forcing them to play against their anatomy will only lead to sadness and failure for the student.
Gud thanks sir
I always catch my bottom jaw moving forward and back when I play any sizable embouchure. And my face just moving too much altogether sometimes to the point where it sounds like my notes are being chewed.
Many moons ago, as a trumpet player I was taught the "smiling" embouchure. Ah, the bad old days!
Lifesaver thank you for the tip
Thank you Sir, 이 영상대로 악기를 부니까 소리가 엄청 좋아졌어요. from Korea 👍🙏
Any idea where I can get thar sweater?
Why does this video keep popping up on my recommendations. I’m not a horn player, I’m a beginner oboe player!
woah!!! how’s it going so far? the oboe seems so cool :) i really want to learn it but the school doesn’t have one</3
@@shayyc Pretty good, every time at band, my band teacher, “you have a good tone”
@@macart5429 that’s good! i’m glad to hear :)
your tone is shit
Saying that does nothing
I'm an old guy who played the horn more than 50 years ago, and now I am missing my top front teeth, and some lower ones. I tooted my horn yesterday and found it quite difficult to hold my emboucher. Should I just give up?
No, keep going.
I know lots of guys with missing teeth, bridges, dentures, you name it. Just keep at it. You'll improve. You should have a look at old photos of Chet Baker's teeth.
The mouth piece sounds like a wheelock 7002t
Can you please make a video on what to do. Please
THANK YOU SO MUCH I HAVE A SOLO ON A PEICE CALLED “ON AN AMERICAN SPIRITUAL” AND I COULDNT HIT THE HIGH G BUT YOU JUDT FIXED THAT FOR ME THANK YOU.
Bruh of course high G is easy I m 14 and i can do that
I was very confused until he said for a professional. I thought I sucked for a sec lol
I found this funny because as a self taught hornist, I do 2 of these. Welp, I'll get started on fixing it now that I know! :)
Do these instructions pertain at least minimally to woodwinds as well as brass, Mr. Elliot? (I’m asking as a guitar player now attempting to add the soprano saxophone to his pallet of instruments but ever fascinated by the French horn.)
Just like with all brass instruments, some people do better with low mouthpiece placement rather than a high one. Have you ever seen the embouchure of Josh Williams? He was recently named one of the best horn players in the world and his placement is about 1:2, not 2:1. -E
Denis Brain
This! This video is dogmatic af
More side angle shots would improve this video tremendously.
Thank you!
Embouchoure donts
Thank you so much!👍
Thank you very much Mr. Elliott for the important information and showing at 4:40 the embouchure.
Thank you! My tone and range has always felt worse than everyone else’s in my two years of playing and I never knew I had some of these problems as I’ve never had any one on one instruction. I hope this can help me.
so how do you fix these problems??
Ashley Kim don’t do it😂
Practice with a mirror and mouth piece visualizer. I used to use the loop on my second valve slide for a mouth piece visualizer because mine was the perfect size.
“This is lower than normal” *plays higher than I can even attempt to play at*
I kinda play the french horn like I'm making duck lips... is that bad?
Xbox_Golden i have a friend who plays like that and she sounds great. So, as long as it’s just your exterior side lip bulging out and it doesn’t tire you, you should be just fine.
Joshua Holmes thank you for the advice :)
Oh my.. no don't play like that! It horrible when it comes to all ranges.
In the long run, that’ll affect your playing.
I’ve never seen a puffed cheek in person. My band directors squashed that when we were just starting.
brownsfan64 - 6-7-1, I only ever puffed my cheeks when I started trombone because it was hard for me to hit low notes. I never did it on french horn.
Is it bad to puff on very low notes? I do it and it seems easier for me to play as low but maybe it's because I'm used to doing it.
@@micahbrimhall584 you shouldnt puff at all
What’s up browns fan?
Can you make one on hand placement inside the bell?
Hello David. Thanks for the videos, I've learned quite a bit. I'm having a difficult time finding The Art of Brass Playing by Mr. Farkas. Would his book The Art of French Horn playing be a reasonable substitute? Cheers
how could you fix the second dont with a tuba? my chin naturally comes up.
Pull it back down bahahaha
in my opinion, David drags on too much about making the point.... and, the examples he demonstrates, to me, isn't very definitive.
What do You reccommend to do against a bunched chin ?
hold ur instrument higher
ugh, my face is tired, very informative!
Good HELP THANKYOU!
great! thank you very much