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Arguing over power levels = idiocy. It's a cartoon.

I know the reasoning behind 50x multiplier. But there is a problem with that.When Goku arrived on Namek, with a base powerlevel of 90.000, he got a Zenkai boost after Ginuy was defeated and his powerlevel jumped to 3.000.000. That's the number that was multiplied by 50x, and that's the real logical issue I have with the show. Goku was close to death countless times in Dragon Ball and he never got a 30+ multiplier boost in powerlevel. If that was the case Kid Goku would be as strong as Nappa after only one near death situation, but we know he was close to death many times in Dragon Ball.

When Goku arrived on Namek, with a base powerlevel of 90.000, he got a Zenkai boost after Ginuy was defeated and his powerlevel jumped to 3.000.000. That's the real logical issue I have with the show

after the kaioken X4 goku's power level lewered to Nappa's level or something about that range, maybe his base level but doubt it. After the kaioken X20, goku certainely dropped from 3 million in base to 1 million or something. He turned SSJ and equalized Freiza at maximum power.

I think battle IQ and movement speed is underrated when people compare Z fighters. I think Z piccolo is a very smart and underrated fighter in general. Vegeta is often times way to arrogant. Besides that it is specifically mentioned that ssj 3 isn't the smartest choice because it is just slower than ssj 2. And it is safe to assume that most of the time the energy consumption of every ssj drops the power of a fighter very fast to just a fraction if it is used to the limits of the fighter and not just for a gimmick to just stand around and look fancy. So stamina issues are very significant to.

Possibilities The first transformation is the most potent Goku got stronger while fighting frieza before ssj frieza wasn't truly at 100% because of the spirit bomb, or because 100% was just too draining to give an advantage for much of the fight. Also, 20% stronger has shown to be super one sided before with some of Vegeta's fights being an example. Frieza at 120m shouldn't be able to touch goku at 150m.

It could also be argued that Frieza just designed his second form to look like King Cold instead since we know he can choose how they look

Yo do you have discord ?

The good ole decreasing multiplier theory

on second thought, maybe they just both independently picked green and orange bc those are alien-looking villain colors and they needed something light

I have to know the name of all the background songs

Toriyama said it was more like 10 fold, and I like that. Lets just say that the first time goku had a 5 times increase for a normal rage boost and 10 fold on top of this for the super Saiyan.

How about this? They just restrain their power usage. Piccolo was almost as strong as a super saiyan at the beggining of the androids saga btw. He was clapping Gero, and Vegeta clapped A19 Piccolo trained with goku for 3 years and when characters feel a strong energy if they prepare for it they raise to the bar consistently througj the show. For example when the Raditz came Goku was not eve 500 in pl and then a year laterbYamcha is stronger than raditz. Ssj came around and a couple years later lots of characters rival this form PL

Now, here’s the real question, was Gohan super Saiyan 2 against Broly

Want me to go “even further beyond”? SSB Kaioken! Either Blue is a pushover or the it can’t be a multiplier of the at the time ultimate form. And he does it “times 20”, yeah right. But anyone with an actual brain knows it isn’t rocket science. ITS STORY! The re-introduction of kaioken was basically a place holder for a new Toy. Now you have to buy a Blue Goku with Red aura. And then with Jiren Goku might as well have gone “Times 100”. It would have mattered. Cause Jiren’s power was X. And X isn’t a number but a statement. And that statement is X = new power up. The story needed a new form.

Can't compare random people vs girl he actually likes and would marry

I mean, we all know Toriyama wasn't consistent, but if you really want to allow it to make sense, then you just have to keep in mind 2 things: Firstly, power level isn't everything relevant on the fight, techniques and skills can overwhelm powerful opponents; Secondly, power level reflects a maximum capability, not a constant state, which means that at any given time, the current power could be different from it's peak. Furthermore, it's not equally distributed around the body, the person has to consciously direct it, which would explain why powerful characters can get severely wounded by pathetic attacks if caught off guard, and also would explain why when channeling powerful techniques like the Kamehameha, they may find themselves weakened against any direct attack from behind.

Thank you. I’ve been arguing this for years in my personal friend group

Power Levels are bullshit. That’s literally the reason they are introduced: to show us the numbers are NOT to be relied upon. Hell people who live and die by it are so annoying. Argue by feats and narrative needs (e.g. rage boost or desperation attacks) are much more reliable than ANY power level. I think it’s called power scaling?

performances ~ log10(power_level) XD

KK20 doesn't really powerscale freeza. It's a singular attack. The ability to take on a singular attack head on doesn't make you stronger than that person. Vegeta survived Goku's x4 Kamehameha, and x4 goku was far stronger than him.

Yes, I liked and subscribed after you asked if cold was stupid 😂

Even after using super Saiyan they can still hold back in the form, and rage boosts and other such things can drastically change power levels. This basically explains most of it… sorta

what is even worse is that perfected ssj (ssj grade 4) would be most likely atleast 75x instead of 50x because it is stated as stronger than at least ssj grade 2 maybe even grade 3

In Raging Blast 2 it was stated that Gohan never used Ssj2 after his energy got stolen

Just watched the fight is its clear gohan is SSj not ascended. Go back and look at the fight and its pretty obvious he is in ssj and thats it

Honestly, the “diminishing returns” thing is the *_only_* way I can make heads or tails of Super’s power scaling. Like, you’re telling me Goku absorbed a universe-busting form (God) into his base form, then Blue is stronger than SSJ3? Which is itself a 400 times multiplier of base? Ie, Blue Goku > 400x universal? In a multiverse with only 12 universes? Yeah, that math ain’t checking out. At that level of power, the fight between him and Golden Freeza should’ve solo’d most of the multiverse. Even if Goku can somehow contain all that power to prevent collateral damage, Freeza ain’t gonna care about that.

Me personally, I'm in the camp that Gohan went SS2 against Dabura near the end of their fight. In the anime they were back and forth until Dabura brought out his sword, and then it was a one-sided beat down until suddenly Gohan was able to break the sword. I think in the anime he went SS2 there. In the manga, Gohan was getting trashed because he was so rusty, so we didn't get as much of the sequence. It's more likely Gohan was just in SS in the manga. But, seeing as Toriyama oversaw the anime process in all of the Z anime, I doubt there's anything in there that he didn't sign off on. And, to that point of calling the anime a more fleshed out version of the manga, in my headcanon I think Vegeta had been hinting the whole time he was able to go SS2, and he wanted to see how his strength stood up against SS2 pre-teen Gohan, which was why he was so upset when Gohan could barely hold on to SS2 and couldn't even beat Dabura who was only as strong as Super Perfect Cell. It wasn't until Vegeta saw Goku's fight against Yakon that he noticed Goku could also go SS2, but the fact that it was nothing to Goku meant that he was further along than Vegeta in controlling the power. I believe that revelation was why Vegeta figured the slight bump in power that Babidi offered would help him overcome that gap. He never believed he would get such a huge glow-up like Spopovich got, but he was still sure it would even the field between him and Goku. At least, that was my headcanon.

It’s actually toriyamas deaign. He was known to change his mind a lot. The staff consulted Toriyama on all filler in ball,z and gt and yes even the films.

Dragon ball super manga(super hero arc) stated no one can sense Orange Piccolos ki because only those with God ki can sense it. He has gotten his god ki unlocked

end of the day he says its 50x. what is even the point of making these videos.

Shitty writing from Akira. It even feels like more of 50% boost really.

That's why it's a power creep problem. In order to keep internal consistency, power levels would have to scale exponentially. The whole course of the Frieza saga is a warmup to that notion, as the side-cast is shown to be constantly outmatched and on their toes against a power only Goku can have any hopes of standing up against. And by the time the Androids roll around, even Goku is completely outmatched by every threat that comes around.

I think now its safe to call you right because in speaking zereo he does the full power Kamehameha as his finisher for ssj2

is he stupid?

But what about water Vegita?

Quick Answer: Yes but it depends

I dont understand how this changes anything. Why was this video made? I seriously don't get it.

I dont agree with all your numbered points (and mathing DB is missing the point) but Toriyama said himself the other forms are more like mutations. Super Saiyan is all you need and then you refine it. But Super Saiyan 2 is still the best looking form.

Part 1 Neji, Gaara, Lee And Sasuke are all stronger than Zabuza/Kakashi in the land of waves

One explanation could be a matter of manufacturing. There are likely countless production facilities all around the universe given the size of Frieza's army, and differences in design could just be a matter of local interpretation. In addition to that, new gear only seems to be acquired to replace damaged gear, unless requisitioned by a distributor or a higher up, like when the Ginyu Force brought a batch of new scouters to Frieza. Lastly is also the fact that space is REALLY big, its possible it could just take a while to fully distribute new models of gear all across Frieza's territory, this combined with my pervious point means there are likely even older models still in use in the farther reaches of known space considering that Frieza's own ship is stocked with some.

I think since frieza's race's forms are limiters king colds power level is only high enough to require a 2nd form rather then friezas 4

I'm onboard with your logic here, something like this always made the most sense to me.

I think it makes more sense for Gohan to be going all out against Dabura in Super Saiyan 2. If he was in regular Super Saiyan and able to fight on par with someone said to be equivalent to Cell, it makes Vegeta's commentary that Gohan is unimpressive feel less reasonable.

When would he have had an opportunity to transform? He thought Trunks only killed Frieza because of his sword and he was dead the moment that was proven wrong.

4:56 its preety obvius they are refering to perfect cell not super peftect cell since Goku never actually saw super perfect cell and he is the one that said he was about as strong as perfect cell.

The simplest answer is that the power boost of Super Saiyan, or indeed any transformation in Dragon Ball, is whatever the plot demands at that time and the author wishes it to be.

i think he was super saiyan 2 but his base was weaker hence the weaker aura

GOLD SSJ6🎉🎉🎉😮😮😮😊😊😊😁😁😁👍👍👍

_reads title_ no and multipliers and power levels are BS